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Taylor Swift Writing Process
http://mashable.com/2017/11/01/taylor-swift-behind-the-scenes-goregous/#rW6uyad0FZqh

Cool.....I think she has lost her way a bit but has a great ability for catchy melodies and her lyrics are for a targeted audience and they have a strange cadence....She Looks Good.

I enjoyed watching that!

I enjoyed watching HER....lol...

I like Lucinda Williams' process: crawl under the covers, assume a prenatal position, cry for a week, write something, repeat. . . .

You can't say that the girl doesn't know what she is doing. She flirts with lesbianism, makes an Angry Chick Singer song become engaging and fun to listen to. Keeps the listener engaged from the first note. Very cool. There is a reason this girl has had such an amazing career, impressed critics, and haters alike, changed styles, genres, and INCREASED her BRAND. This just doesn't happen by accident.

Yeah, when this cute little 15 year old girl and her Mom approached me at an ASCAP party, saying that we should "get together and write sometime", and I blew it off, because I recently had written with three 14 year old girls AND THEIR MOTHERS, probably teaches you that ALL UNDER 20 YEAR OLD'S ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL!
Do what I say, NOT what I DO!!!!LOL!

I've always been impressed with this girl. How she has ridden over adversity and triumphed. She was told that "she would never get anywhere with out the 'NASHVILLE BIG MACHINE' behind her. So she BECAME the Nashville big machine. People are always talking about the GATEKEEPERS and how hard it is to get heard and get cuts because the GATEKEEPERS keep them out.

Well, my friends, THIS IS ONE OF THE GATEKEEPERS.

And what could any of us write that would fit HER better than HER OWN SONGS? That, in a nutshell, is why outside cuts, and not having artists involved in the songs from the outset, is an excercise in futility, when it comes to navigating today;s music marketplace.

My advice? Find your OWN Taylor Swift. But be aware. THERE ARE NOT MANY OF THEM. ONLY PEOPLE TRYING TO BE TAYLOR SWIFT.

MAB

I like Taylor Swift, but this video shows somebody trying to make a verse and a chorus work, by trying it over and over again, until satisfied.

I do that every time I sit down to write something. Sometimes I do it standing up.

I was looking for a bit more mystery, but this is just stick-to-it ness....

Helps when you know your song is going to sell big too. If you don't quite get it, its still going to be heard by millions

That IS THE SONGWRITING PROCESS.
That is what professionals do. They go over it and over it and then tweak, get away, bring it back up, run it by other people, record work demos review it, run it by more people, do more involved recordings, write a TON MORE songs in the same process, repeat always. And GET RID of the songs that don't measure up. Usually 1 for every 10 songs you write. Gonna do a ten song project? Better plan on writing 100 songs.

It is a long process. When Jackson Brown started "TAKE IT EASY" he played the first verse over and over on his piano hundreds of times, because he had nothing else. Finally, 'the upstairs neighbor, who had been hearing it through the floor for months, came down and said, "Let me help you finish that song so you can play something else." That neighbor was Glenn Frey. That was the Eagles first huge hit.

The process sometimes goes fast, some times slow. But great songs are NOT written. They are RE-WRITTEN.

Taylor is a MEGA ENTERTAINMENT MACHINE. She writes, produces, directs her videos, designs her t-shirts and merchandizing, directs her tours and runs every detail of her empire, which makes around 80 million dollars a year. She has sold millions upon millions and since her career started about 10 years ago, has expanded her audience continually. SHE IS A BRAND.

If you want to learn. Learn from one of the best. She's one of the best. That's how it's done.

MAB

I know how songs are written Marc. I didn't have to learn it from her, I do the same exact thing she does. She's no different than most other songwriters. Her gifts lie in her appeal and her ability to stir things up, and the fact that somebody decided to take a chance on her, as opposed to millions of others.

Plus, she also has an all star cast of people surrounding her to make sure her records are as good as can be.

Being one of the best is subjective, but she is no doubt one of the most successful

And she is cute....BUT her Pop Career although successful is awful to me.

"Go where the money is"

The only reason people crossover is to make more money. I never considered her a country songwriter anyway

I think she is better than alot of the crap that comes out on the radio. Shes had some good stuff, but im sure her producers and managers and advisors have a heavy hand in her career.

I think she controls everything herself.....

Well she is not a good musician, plays a few chords on guitar and piano, so i doubt she has the knowledge on how to arrange her songs.

Her lineup of co writers and producers is pretty extensive. Im guessing she talks to people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_(Taylor_Swift_album)

You don't have to be a good musician to be a Great Songwriter.

Fedementero (God I wish you would sign your posts with your name Is there some reason you don;t want to be known)

You are making PRECISELY THE SAME MISTAKE that the world has made about Taylor Swift since she started. Exactly the same way. Discounting her, and giving credit to others, while knowing virtually nothing about the subject matter. Very simple to do. And you are just as wrong as everyone else who did the same thing. Companies that went out of business, contemporaries, who undercut her and ended up broke or gone, critics who continue to say she was nothing and go nowhere. They were just as wrong. It is somewhat comical to watch, but instructive.

First of all, in 30 years in Nashville, I have seen the "Phenom" twice. These are people who are so earth shattering forces of nature they change the entire industry around them. The shift the paramaters of the genre they are in and cause everyone to chase them to be just like them. It can't be manufactured, though BILLIONS of dollars are spent trying to do just that. It is something you can't define, can't predict and can't manufacture. It is something that happens very rarely. Elvis had it. The Beatles had it. In Nashville, Garth Brooks had it. And Taylor Swift has it. It;s the "IT" everyone talks about.

It is an internal thing. It is organic, yet focused. Garth brought rock energy and stage shows into country music. Changed the entire dynamic of the industry. Took us from $214 million in total sales in 1992, to $2.5 BILLION two years later in 1994. Like Garth, Taylor expanded the demographic of people that PURCHASED her music, became fans for life and created an industry around her.

I met her at 15 years old along with her mother. Seemed like a very nice girl and Momanger. There were 25 other sets at the same party I met her. I saw hundreds of them performing in Nashville. They all left me flat, and unimpressed. The first I actually "heard of her" was when my daughter (who is also named TAELOR, we spell it different) and is 6 months older than Taylor Swift. My daughter had fallen in love with her music and I bought her CD. As I heard it, I was blown away by the quality of writing.

She did something I had not thought of. She had a different way of looking at life through her music. It boiled down to one song. "OUR SONG."
We have heard that title a billion time in songs. "Our song was the song we danced to when we were married." "Our song was when our children were born.." "Our song was this and that." Very old, and very overdone.

Taylor made it about SOUNDS. "Our song is a slamming door, talking low on the phone so your mama don't know." It was NOISES, not words. It was "SAYING THE SAME THING WE'VE HEARD A BILLION TIMES, BUT DIFFERENTLY."
Every song was exactly like that. A different take on every subject. And where we had always heard the 14-18 year old artists, they were always sophomoric in their language, Disney Esque" or age inappropriate.

She was not.
I noticed the name "LIZ ROSE" on her songs. I had an opportunity to meet Liz at another Nashville party. I asked her "Is that you or is that Taylor?" She said "THAT WAS ALL TAYLOR. I WAS AN EDITOR on those songs. She brought them pretty much totally complete, when I got to them."
I also knew "Troy Tomlinson, who signed her to Sony as a writer at 14 years old. I helped get an artist, Frankie Ballard, signed to the same publishing company, and pictures of Taylor, awards are all over his office. He said "Every decision is all Taylor. She runs her company and really doesn't need anyone.

Yes, her Dad was ONE INVESTOR (3%) of a production company featuring Taylor. Yes, they hired Scott Borchetta, of Universal music to head up their company. (Offered him $150,000 a year and a percentage, instead of $125,000 and no percentage in the company he was making at Universal.

At the same time, I could name you a dozen blonde, 16-21 year old writer/artists with the same money behind them that DID NOT do what Taylor did.

She expanded her demographic from age 25-45 70% female, to 14-65 70% female.

She shifted the peramaters. Is she the best singer? Nope. Best musician? Nope. Best songwriter? Could be. She has won every award you can win ,impressed labels, industry people, critics, and most of all has an incredible DEVOTED following, that continue with her. She doesn't lose people no matter what type of music she does. There really is not one other artist you can make that claim about.

She proved us all wrong. Me included. The only difference with most people and me, is I know how to admit when I'm wrong.
I was on that one. The girl is the real deal. She can out write us, out think us and has made more money and impact than all of us put together. Some times you just have to give credit where credit is due.

MAB

Barry, but we were talking about her having other people involved in her career, and if not a good muscian, how is she making record quality professionally arranged and produced recordings? with lots of help from other people.

Marc, your post is not relavent to my comment. A video was posted showing her writing process. It's nothing different than anyone else's

If u wanna go there and say she's better than me, fine, but how she writes is not. That's all that was said, it's an over bloated video of a songwriters writing process when there is nothing there to get excited about,

In other words, I couldn't watch her video and suddenly have a new songwriting process.

She has great arrangers and band etc....BUT it's her Melody and Lyrics....that's all a songwriter needs to do....Arrangers and Great Musicians are out there BUT her ability to write lyrics that appeal to a specific audience BIG TIME and here infectious melodies is what makes her a great songwriter. Rogers & Hammerstein couldn't arrange but their songs are fantastic....That's what I mean....It's not about her videos but the words and melody....I'd rather listen to a song and see my own pictures but she is good at that too....SO I don't like her move into Pop but can see how talented a songwriter and brander and show woman she can be. Love her or hate her she is a one of a kind. She is one of the few that mostly writes ALL her songs herself....and I like that.

F..... (whatever, I can't figure out how to spell these names)

I have been responding to the things you say:

"I like Taylor Swift, but this video shows somebody trying to make a verse and a chorus work, by trying it over and over again, until satisfied."

That is the songwriting process. And this thread is titled "TAYLOR SWIFT'S SONGWRITING PROCESS." It is about her, and frankly, you are probably not even the target of this video. Her fans are. If you thought you were going to find some form of "Secret handshake" or "unknown process" you were mistaken, because this is always how it is. Sitting down and working on something over and over again. If you do that, cool. Most of us do the exact same thing except for people who write to loops or other computer assisted things. The only difference between her and most of us is her process concludes in very successful songs and millions of dollars.
As far as writing "better than you or me, I'm including myself in all of this, as well. Whether she is, (which I will gladly say she's better than me, and I kind of like what I write) she proves herself continually.


"I know how songs are written Marc. I didn't have to learn it from her, I do the same exact thing she does. She's no different than most other songwriters. Her gifts lie in her appeal and her ability to stir things up, and the fact that somebody decided to take a chance on her, as opposed to millions of others."



"Marc, your post is not relavent to my comment. A video was posted showing her writing process. It's nothing different than anyone else's"

It's exactly relevant to your comment. And many of your comments. Taylor is a very different writer/artist than most people, and it shows in the success she has had. The point I am trying to make, is that you seem to be making the same mistake that many people do with her, giving credit to her "handler's, arrangers, production people, etc." I've talked to many of those people in private and it is NOT like that She is the one arranging her stuff, producing it, and directing it from the very first word or note she writes to it's final product and release to the public.

Most people's problem with Taylor usually stem from jealousy. But she does what she does and keeps on going. Even the negative things that happen to her, (relationship break ups, critic's dismissals "Shake it off") she turns the every day things that everyone goes to into magic. She IS woman empowerment. And THAT is what she does differently. She has an ability to make people hook into her product and say "I never thought of it like that before."

And to me, that is what is unique about her and what successful songwriting is on any level. Getting people to see something they have heard a million times before in a different light.

MAB

Marc,

So, I'm simply mistaken, that all that is shown on this video is somebody trying to force a song together, which I have been doing since the first day I started writing a song?

The video shows nothing. This has nothing to do with whether or not I think she is a good songwriter, or I like herr, or that she doesn't know what she is doing, or she is not good.

For you, the content of the video doesn't matter. Somebody posted a video saying Taylor Swifts writing process, so you respond like "that is how it's done"

Lol, How is that exactly?

Your jumping on the chance to talk about Taylor Swifts career instead of seeing what the conversation was about

There are some good videos about the songwriting process out there. This is not one of them

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOKB44woiU8

Which video gives you more info to use?

Btw, silence is important in guitar playing as well. It's what you don't say or sing that stands out

That's fine. More of a documentary which is fine. Since I don't really care much for anything John Mayer has ever done, it doesn't mean much to me, but it is a process video. So if you get a lot out of it, then that is fine. Neither one give me anything I haven't used quite often, but that is why they make videos.

MAB

He's a hit songwriter, and a great musician. I'm not his biggest fan either, but your doing what u accused me of doing.

It's only good if you like who's doing it.

Fdemetrio,

Not at all. I didn't diminish John Mayer and give credit for his success to other people. I simply don't care for his music or him as a person. But he has done what he has done and that is fine. This particular video, like the Taylor video shows process. Things can be learned from both of them. You can pick the one that you like, either one is fine. What you were doing in my opinion is what almost everyone that has ever encountered her from a critical perspective have done, which is dismiss her abilities as "packaging, handling, and other things" that are simply not true.
All I was doing in outlining her history, and the impact it has had was to give some background in relation to her songwriting process, how she takes a song, from the beginning of it, works it out, takes it to the final production.

I'm not a Taylor fan that likes all of her music. I simply have a pretty close viewpoint on this from friends I know that work with her, and also am a person who studies "beyond the song."

Now, the fact that she and Mayer dated, and I also know people who have worked with him, I tend to support her over him. She is much cuter to look at in my view.

Other than that there are similarities and differences in each one. Both have value. Both show their points of view. Neither are wrong. Just are what they are.

MAB

Well, I've dated Taylor and She started to become too possessive so I had to let her go. .Lolllllllllll

Yeah well, my niece loves Taylor Swift and did for as far back as I can remember

I just think Taylor Swift is not going to help my songwriting process, it's just the wrong person for me to be studying, or anyone over 40

You Know how songs are written ??? anyone can write a song but writing a Hit Song

is a lot different, just ask the hundreds of Professional Song Writers , who have done it


Its not about luck and stumbling over a piece of shite , by accident that just happened


to become a hit, either because it appealed to a bunch of morons in a Pub or High on

drugs Writing consistently well like say Dianne Warren is something a very few can

ever hope to emulate,and in most cases its Very Hard Work being prepared to re write

time after time until every musical phrase and every matching lyrical line is married to

its musical counter part; Its also about studying your audience , Its also about timing,

Its also about being prepared to pitch your songs in a professional manner , and selling

yourself as a person ; Its not about telling the world who you like or who you dont

like , and its also about being humble and diplomatic when you meet someone who might

be able to further your aspirations along the way. Just saying because I see so

many wannabe writers on here and other sites , who are quite frankly beyond help, and

thats a sad thing to say i agree

Yes.....Cheynne, I know how songs are written, I've been doing it since I was 14.

A hit song is just a song that gets heard. It's easier for Taylor Swift to have a hit song than it is you, agreed? Why? The main reason is she already has millions of fans. And everybody in America knows who she is.

Luck is absolutely a part of it, might be the single most important part.

Let's take a look at Marc here. Marc is an encylopedia of knowledge about the songwriting business.

Does Marc have a hit song? Did he ever? Will he ever?

I was speaking about the songwriting process, everything else is stuff we have no control over.

Ya just can never tell what will be a hit song. Billy Ray Cyrus did NOT want to release Achy Breaky Heart....LOL I hit has a short verse and a very catchy melody for a chorus and some words that some can relate to. The ch melody is the most important and it should leave you with that melody in your noggin all day. AND that ain't enough either because some STAR Has to sing it so it is heard.....Not Easy......

Interesting story on that song Barry. You are correct, Billy Ray didn't want to record it. But it was part of the package they put together on the deal. IT was his producer Harold Shedd that insisted he record it. HArold had done pretty well with this guy named Keith Whitley, and a little group called ALABAMA.
The song had been around for years called "ACHIN BREAKIN' HEART." It had been recorded but never really gone anywhere.

Billy Ray was a big club performer in Lexington Ky. who had a lot of people talking about him. A local celebrity. When he recorded his first album that was the first single. They put together an advertising campaign completely around that song. They had an "Achy Breaky" dance contest all over the country with line dance teachers, who competed to invent the dance "The Achy Breaky." At that time Country music videos were just beginning and line dance clubs were the biggest things. A by product of that, was that most of the DJs on the weekends were also radio DJ's during the week.

They filmed a huge video in front of his home town crowd over a weekend. They had the dance contest winners do the Achey Breaky dance. Was a big weekend.
Then they started the publicity campaign. They started playing the video on the screens in all the line dance clubs round the country. It became the most requested song in the clubs, and the DJ's went back to their week jobs telling their program directors "We have to play this song because it's firing all the people in the clubs into a frenzy."

It caught on in the clubs first, then broke on radio after it was a hit in the dance market. The cost was $750,000 in video and promotion and paid off in $22 million dollars. That is how the song became a hit. It was viral before the Internet came along.
This is the video.

: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byQIPdHMpjc&list=RDbyQIPdHMpjc


Fdmentero, no I have no hits. I have five major cuts but no major singles. I always admit that. I don't have the hits and am just someone with an opinion, but my opinion is pretty educated because I am pretty good friends with people who HAVE made the hits. This story was told to me by a woman named Sandy Neese, who was the Vice president at Mercury Polygram records, and was the person who came up with the advertising campaign. At the time she was trying to get me signed to a record deal to Mercury and told the story to me at a dinner with some executives. I didn't get the deal. It happens. So I make no pretense of having done all this myself. But I do get my information from the people who have done it. And also I am trying to provide some background on things behind the song. Because while it does BEGIN with a song, there are thousands of things that have to happen BEYOND the song that goes into the success or failure. At the same time there are always thousands of people, labels, songs, publishers, financial people, managers, etc. that are spending the same amounts of money and doing the same things that DON'T work out.

So no matter the songwriting process, recording, the artist, the well intentions, it still takes something that resonates with the public. And that is where the rubber meets the road.

MAB

Yeah I didn't mean it as an insult, and having a hit as a songwriter is not something you come across every day. I know a guy who has been in nashvill for two years, doing the runs, but nothing so far.

It doesn't diminish your insight or viewpoint.

I was making a point to Cheyenne. just because you don't have a hit, it doesn't mean you don't know anything. And some artists, like the boss, did not want to have hit singles. He's a bad example because he's had incredible success without hits.

But either way, we shouldn't confuse creative process and craft, with having success at songwriting.

That's like saying that a guitar teacher do sn know what he's doing if he's never been a rock star or been a successful artist. He still knows how to teach guitar, or whatever.

That's very true when it comes to teachers of all types. Sometimes they are very accomplished, but might not have the accolades they deserve. There was an interesting point that was made to me when I was asked to start teaching songwriting and performance. I initially turned it down several times. I didn't feel I was "qualified" to tell anyone anything because I had not achieved the things that I felt were nessasary.

But the guy who started me doing this, Cliff Nelson, of Orange County California, in addition to being a songwriter and singer, was also a high school football coach. He said, "The thing about sports is that some of the greatest coaches in history were really not that good as players. And some of the best players, were not really that good a coach." Every once in a while, you do get someone who can do both, but most of the time life simply leads people in a different direction.

In music, I've found there are so many things that have nothing to do with an individual;s talent or drive. Record companies dropping artists, having songs recorded but not making the final project, getting a second or third single and your's never makes it out because the first two stiff for the singer. Having a record company president and owner DIE of Cancer, and shutting down the entire label. Corporate take over of labels, and artists and projects getting shelved and dropped.

There are a lot of things that can happen and you should be grateful for anything you get.

Good conversation. Enjoyed it.
MAB

If slapping on some makeup and pointing a camera at herself is her process, then power to her!

I don't think it would work for me.

Bringing "the Boss" into it opens the door to discussing the difference between a very good, very successful, professional songwriter and a truly great one. It's maybe not fair to compare anyone to Springsteen though.

To me, the most impressive thing about Taylor Swift is the way she has managed her life and career. She has played to her strengths. Having done a lot of driving with two daughters in the car, I've just about heard enough of her though

"I've just about heard enough of her though" - Gavin

Yes, I'd much rather here about Gershwin's writing process. But then, I'm sure he just sat at the piano and let flow.

John

Good thread

1) Glad to hear "the process" is widespread. Whenever I first begin to write the song from the lyric, I sound awful as I am looking for a melody. Continual do overs and time make it better, and experience has shortened the process

2) But when you introduce someone like Taylor Swift as the one "going through the process", then her process simply yields something better than the ordinary Joe because she is an awesome sogwriter

3) Most of the rest is a strong sense of work ethic and business. Surround yourself with good people and focus on what you're good at.

PS..not discounting luck, but you have to be ready for the opportunity too...