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#1155307 - 07/17/19 02:46 AM Any thoughts on double song titles  
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Roy Cooper Offline
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Hi friends, I'm hoping that you can help on the quandary I face.

So I have a finished song with a title that's a line from the chorus. However after researching the ins and outs, It seems to be that a song can get more plays if those who could relate to the song are (pulled in) to have a listen initially by the song title....Especially so on the internet, where a song could be listed with many.

I know that lots of songs have titles that don't appear in the song, and others have the (pull in title) followed by the chorus line title.

Your thoughts would be appreciated

God Bless Roy

Last edited by Roy Cooper; 07/17/19 02:52 AM.

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#1155318 - 07/17/19 06:39 AM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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Everett Adams Online content
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An enticing title can cause some to listen to see what the song is all about, but the content of the song, if it is good, is what will bring them to listen again and again. Like you can't judge a book by its cover, you can't judge a song by its title. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Looks and titles can be deceiving. Make the content as strong as you can, even if the title appears no where in the song.

#1155319 - 07/17/19 06:46 AM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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Gary E. Andrews Online content
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How will the 'consuming' public, the ultimate consumer, the paying customer, and the industry 'consumer', publishers, artists who might cover your Song, 'learn' the title?
If they 'learn' it by stumbling on it in printed form somewhere and are intrigued to listen, will they find themselves with another obvious title in their audio 'consumption' of the Song? Will they 'get' that title, in the audio, or 'forget' the one they 'saw' that made them 'click'?

I think, ideally, the title should be obvious in the audio version, 'hit' a minimum of three times, more if logical.

Without seeing and hearing the options on your particular Song I can't judge that this particular Song's chances are improved by the alternative title.

But odds are the tried and true title-in-the-Chorus method is the one that works best in 'teaching' your Song title to the consuming public. There can be exceptions but only a case-by-case analysis would enable making that judgment that this one works as that exception.

I remember seeing a Song Lyric title on BMI's now-defunct website, www.Songwriter101.com with 10,000 views. I thought, "Wow! Must be a good Song!" I opened it, and it wasn't anywhere near 'good'. I realized all the 'viewer' had to go by was the printed title. It did just what you're talking about, drawing in 'viewers' of the printed title on the written page. So it did have that effect. But the more important thing was the actual Song, the Lyric, the Melody to which the words might have been sung. Could that title have been 'driven home' as the main idea of the Lyric? Probably. Was it? No. (Also a possibility that the writer had somehow driven up the 10,000 views themselves in an attempt at promotion.)
But I think the Song itself should drive the title home, not the title driving 'viewers' to 'listen' and then finding themselves with a Song that does NOT contain and only 'reflects' the concept of the written title. If it doesn't 'earworm' into their consciousness on hearing it, it probably won't matter what you call it. Only experimenting with market research, seeing what works, somehow, with the consuming public can tell. And, you may only get one chance to make a first impression.


There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
#1155327 - 07/17/19 09:48 AM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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Thank you Everett & Gary for your very good in depth replies.

Plenty of food for thought....

God Bless Roy


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#1155328 - 07/17/19 09:48 AM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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Gavin Sinclair Online content
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Memorable versus attention-grabbing. I have been interested in this question for a long time, wondering whether the thinking which developed in the online book buying world when Amazon became dominant should now apply to music in the world of streaming. In other words, is the first impression made by the title and its ability to intrigue a potential listener enough to click on it the most important element in its selection, more important even than the traditional considerations, such as whether it is the first or last line of the chorus, how many times it is repeated in the lyric or even if it appears at all. I have come to believe that it is. I have at least two songs where I decided to do this.

Not that it doesn't make sense to follow the traditional rules too, if you can. Having a memorable and intriguing hook that recurs an appropriate number of times in the song and also makes a killer title is the ideal. Also, songs differ from books in that a book buyer only needs to find the book once in order to purchase it, while a listener using a streaming service (or wanting to request the song on the radio) might need to remember the title so that he can return to it. However, if you have to choose between using a hook that works well in the song, but doesn't grab attention and an alternative title that does, it's worth considering that alternative title and making it memorable enough that the listener will recall enough of it to search for it. Of course, he/she can also search by artist, so really only needs to recall enough of it to identify it, since most people do remember who the performer is.

It can also happen occasionally that the most memorable title is something not in the song. I have a song about the musical sounding names behind the voices that you hear on the radio when listening to NPR. The title "The NPR Song" is more memorable than anything I could have plucked from the lyric.

From an artistic point of view, I have long been interested in using the title as more than just a marker. Like most of us, I like to be as concise as possible in a lyric, saying as much as possible in a few words. The title can give you an opportunity to add more information to what you are saying in the lyric, serving as an unsung extra line. I posted a song here a while back with the title "In France." Those words appear nowhere in the song, but are hinted at by descriptions and kind of echoed in the last line of the chorus "In that dimly-remembered far-off land." Since "France" refers not only to a physical place, but also a place and time in the singer's memory, what it stands for is really what the song is all about. Some people missed the point entirely, while others seemed to enjoy the gentle mental exercise, helped by the title. I suppose that since these folks were the most likely to enjoy the song anyway, it was probably the right choice. I would do it again, i think.

Sorry for the long reply, but, as I said at the start, this is something that really interests me smile

#1155329 - 07/17/19 10:41 AM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Well,
If you have a great title you had better have the song to go with it. Probably most songs do have the title to the song somewhere in the lyrics. One song, mentioned here in another post, UNCHAINED MELODY, a big hit has the title nowhere in the lyrics. I would say, if you can, include the Title somewhere in the lyrics.


Ray E. Strode
#1155330 - 07/17/19 10:41 AM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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Fdemetrio Online content
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It seems now, and millenial musicians know this, one word song titles are where its at.

The song title is nowhere near as important as it once was, because of the way music is distrubuted. Most young people stream music nowadays, and long titles dont fit in the tiny spaces provided by streaming players, at least as far as top 40 hit music. The average word per title these days is 2.5 words per song title. SO if trying in this market forget double titles, pick your top two words and make that the title!

https://www.thestar.com/entertainme...-titles-make-for-chart-topping-hits.html

#1155345 - 07/17/19 02:46 PM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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"Free Beer" is a title that could really bring in the clicks.

#1155351 - 07/17/19 04:22 PM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Roy Cooper Offline
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Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
Memorable versus attention-grabbing.


Hi Gavin, and thanks for some really great thoughts.

Thinking outside the box is always cool for me, and in that sense what we are talking about is just that.

I actually agree that in this day and age, the rules have changed to where the title is often the lead to getting that 'click' that says, 'I will listen to what you have, because the title says I can relate'.

If you are a known artist, then maybe the old rules apply, but still trying to get noticed, then the new rules mostly apply IMO. But I could be wrong.

Obviously, if the actual song doesn't deliver what the listener is looking for, based on the 1 or 2 word title, then the process is wasted.

I did listen to you track, 'NPR' and enjoyed it, and yes the title worked. The other track that you mention 'Since France', is no longer available, I see.

I think that what you said, 'The title can give you an opportunity to add more information to what you are saying in the lyric, serving as an unsung extra line', is a really good point, and observation. It is an oportunity....

I also believe that internet, DJs, and music blogs etc etc, are more likely to listen to the song, and maybe plug it if the title attracts them from the start, and the title says 'Me Me Me' lol

Anyway, thanks friend for taking the time to offer your thoughts, they are always appreciated.

God Bless Roy


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#1155352 - 07/17/19 04:54 PM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Roy Cooper Offline
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Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
If you have a great title you had better have the song to go with it.


Hi Ray and I really do appreciate your taking time to join in with your thoughts.

'If you have a great title you had better have the song to go with it'. You are so right on that score.
When I googled 'song titles not in lyrics', there are so many, a lot successful as well.

As Gavin said:
'If you have to choose between using a hook that works well in the song, but doesn't grab attention and an alternative title that does, it's worth considering that alternative title and making it memorable enough that the listener will recall enough of it to search for it'.

I think that applies more so if the listener gets what they expect from the song, based on the title of the song that got them to listen to it in the first place.

Plenty of food for thought...

Once again thanks for joining in, appreciated

God Bless Roy


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#1155353 - 07/17/19 05:04 PM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Roy Cooper Offline
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
It seems now, and millennial musicians know this, one word song titles are where its at.

The song title is nowhere near as important as it once was, because of the way music is distributed.


Hi Fdemetrio, and thanks for adding to this topic.

Your thoughts are very interesting, and after I looked at the article that you had the link to, I'm inclined to agree with you.

https://www.thestar.com/entertainme...-titles-make-for-chart-topping-hits.html

'I will contemplate, and weigh up all the ins and outs', (that's my song title) only joking..lol

Thanks again friend for your input, its appreciated

God Bless Roy


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#1155354 - 07/17/19 05:05 PM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Roy Cooper Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
"Free Beer" is a title that could really bring in the clicks.


Sure that would work Mark, lol

God Bless Roy


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#1155360 - 07/17/19 09:24 PM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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Gavin Sinclair Online content
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Originally Posted by Roy Cooper
Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
Memorable versus attention-grabbing.


I did listen to you track, 'NPR' and enjoyed it, and yes the title worked. The other track that you mention 'Since France', is no longer available, I see.


It was accidentally set to private at SoundCloud. Here is the link https://soundcloud.com/themysteriousbeings/in-france

I just got an evaluation back from NSAI and one of their criticisms was - you guessed it - the title wasn't in the song LOL.

#1155370 - 07/18/19 01:19 AM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Roy Cooper Offline
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I had a listen Gavin and found it a very beautiful song...

Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
I just got an evaluation back from NSAI and one of their criticisms was - you guessed it - the title wasn't in the song LOL.


So my friend does that make them or you right? lol

I'm with you on this occasion..

God Bless Roy


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#1155379 - 07/18/19 10:44 AM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
"Free Beer" is a title that could really bring in the clicks.


I had a song, one of my few attempts to write a country song called "cold beer at a reasonable price"

I guess today it would be called "cold beer".. or just cold

#1155384 - 07/18/19 12:11 PM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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Gavin Sinclair Online content
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Originally Posted by Roy Cooper
I had a listen Gavin and found it a very beautiful song...

Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
I just got an evaluation back from NSAI and one of their criticisms was - you guessed it - the title wasn't in the song LOL.


So my friend does that make them or you right? lol

I'm with you on this occasion..

God Bless Roy


To be honest, I only sent that song for evaluation because I had five evaluations to use up in the one day remaining of my yearly membership smile. I didn't really expect them to "get" it as their evaluations tend to be very formulaic and based on a song ticking particular boxes. Not that I haven't had good feedback from them, just not on anything that steps outside the lines a little. I've usually done so deliberately, and their evaluation consists of telling me I've done it LOL. I do find that I get good suggestions for more conventional songs, especially country, which is to be expected, I suppose.

#1155402 - 07/19/19 02:21 AM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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I'm going to try an experiment to see if the theory works out.

When I have the final track for my next song which should be in a couple of weeks, I will release it via my record label, onto itunes, spotify, amazon etc etc (using the first line from the chorus as the song title)....

At the same time I will post the video of the track onto youtube, using a description title that is not in the song, but is honest to the theme of the song and shorter, although the video may have in its start credits, the title from the chorus. Haven't decided on that yet....

I will also add links to the track on itunes, spotify, amazon etc etc in the youtube video description.

The great thing is that on youtube (unlike streaming services) a search is based on the title and description and I can change these youtube details at any time... and as youtube is owned by google, search results for types of song, are pretty good on google...

and then I can see if it gets any hits on youtube and if so any comments....and see if youtube leads to the streaming services etc etc.

Obviously the whole experiment may be a waste of time, but as my dad used to tell me, Its better to try things than become an old man, and wish that you had tried.

Lets see what happens....


God Bless Roy

Last edited by Roy Cooper; 07/19/19 12:10 PM.

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#1155545 - 07/26/19 02:23 AM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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Actually I have decided to use a double title with the 2nd title in parentheses.

One of the main reasons for doing this is to 'make sure more folks learn about, and hopefully enjoy and remember, the song'.

It seems to be a well established tradition.

You Know My Name (Look Up The Number)" - The Beatles

"I Want You (She's So Heavy)" - The Beatles

"(I Don't Want To Go To) Chelsea" - Elvis Costello & The Attractions

"(Marie's The Name) His Latest Flame" - Elvis Presley

"Sing The All Together (See What Happens)" - The Rolling Stones

"Dossier (Of Fallibility)" - The Skids

"(I Never Loved) Eva Braun" - The Boomtown Rats

"(Don't Let 'Em) Grind Ya Down" - Motörhead

"(I Know) I'm Losing You" - Rod Stewart

"Do You Like Worms (Roll Plymouth Rock)" - The Beach Boys

"I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch)" - The Four Tops

"Dream Baby (How Long Must I Dream)" - Roy Orbison

"It Takes Two To Tango (This Is For The Girls)" - Todd Rundgren

"Saturday Night (Is The Loneliest Night In The Week)" - Frank Sinatra


plus many many more.

maybe you can think of others to add to this list.

The track will be done soon.

God Bless Roy


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#1155550 - 07/26/19 11:07 AM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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Gavin Sinclair Online content
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Roy, that's an interesting list. It really contains two things.

There are "real" double titles, like "Do You Like Worms (Roll Plymouth Rock)," "I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch)," "Dream Baby (How Long Must I Dream)," "It Takes Two To Tango (This Is For The Girls)," where each title could stand by itself.

Then there are short snappy title with the words in parentheses serving as an explainer or completer of the title. The words in parentheses could not stand on their own as an alternative title. "I Don't Want To Go To" or "Is The Loneliest Night of the Week," for example.

Which are you going for? I have used the latter (e.g. "How Can I Leave Her Behind (When She Won't Leave Mine)", but never the former.

#1155553 - 07/26/19 01:20 PM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Roy Cooper Offline
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Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
Roy, that's an interesting list. It really contains two things.

There are "real" double titles, like "Do You Like Worms (Roll Plymouth Rock)," "I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch)," "Dream Baby (How Long Must I Dream)," "It Takes Two To Tango (This Is For The Girls)," where each title could stand by itself.

Then there are short snappy title with the words in parentheses serving as an explainer or completer of the title. The words in parentheses could not stand on their own as an alternative title. "I Don't Want To Go To" or "Is The Loneliest Night of the Week," for example.

Which are you going for? I have used the latter (e.g. "How Can I Leave Her Behind (When She Won't Leave Mine)", but never the former.


I will be going for the former Gavin...where each title could stand by itself. But only the first is a line from the song.

sorry I haven't put the titles here as I am waiting for the finished track first. All will become clear ASAP.

God Bless Roy

Last edited by Roy Cooper; 07/26/19 01:20 PM.

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#1155580 - 07/29/19 08:25 PM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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Stephen John (singch Offline
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I think catchy titles are nice, but great poetry and a killer hook/chorus are the real deal. We often times cannot remember the name of a song but we sing the melody and hook when sharing a song we can't remember.

#1155581 - 07/30/19 03:15 AM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Stephen John (singch]  
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Roy Cooper Offline
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Originally Posted by Stephen John (singch
I think catchy titles are nice, but great poetry and a killer hook/chorus are the real deal. We often times cannot remember the name of a song but we sing the melody and hook when sharing a song we can't remember.


Hi Stephen and thanks so much for your thoughts on the topic.

I would agree that once the song has been heard by a listener, then great poetry and a killer hook/chorus are the real deal, but with millions of tracks being uploaded every day, it is difficult to get that first listeners attention, more so I suspect if the songwriter is an unknown and doesn't have a following.

Changing the title may with a bit of luck , hopefully attract that first listen. Then the song will stand or fall on its own merit.

Of course this is only conjecture on my behalf and I could be way of bat.

Thanks again

God Bless Roy


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#1155822 - 08/12/19 03:04 AM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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Well friends, I have finished the track with the double title, about which this topic is about.

I have posted it in the mp3 section if you would like to have a listen.

It's called 'A Songwriters Dream (Gone Is The Wonderland)

http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthr...st-co-write-since-helen.html#Post1154606

God Bless Roy


Last edited by Roy Cooper; 08/14/19 01:41 AM.

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#1155890 - 08/15/19 02:53 PM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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Stephen John (singch Offline
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Welcome Roy, I really don't think there is a hard and fast, if there were we would all be writing "hits" or great song without thinking. I too posted a double titled song in the mp3 section. Check it out if you have time.

Bless

#1155898 - 08/15/19 09:30 PM Re: Any thoughts on double song titles [Re: Stephen John (singch]  
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Roy Cooper Offline
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Originally Posted by Stephen John (singch
Welcome Roy, I really don't think there is a hard and fast, if there were we would all be writing "hits" or great song without thinking. I too posted a double titled song in the mp3 section. Check it out if you have time.

Bless


Thanks John for having a read, I will look at your song

God Bless to all

Roy


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