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Hi Ray, That's the story and I'm stickin' to it. For the last 20 years, a lot of my time has been devoted to finding good co-writers. I can sing, but no-one wants to hear it without music, I promise. As far as the guitar, I explained that in my "Book" above, I have a stupid left hand. I will start working with BIAB as soon as I set up my desktop and buy a new copy of the program.
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My goodness John, I broke my right arm when I was 7 years old. As a result I became left handed. But I decided I would learn (Famous last words here) to play right handed. Talk about coordination I don't have much! But I slug along the best I can when recording a song. Not anyways near professional but I have been asked for more songs from just my Guitar/Vocals. Nothing lately however. I have quit pitching my songs except sending people to the Web Site where I have 15 songs posted. Nobody is looking for songs at present. I have signed a few publishing contracts in the past but no action. Geronimo!
Ray E. Strode
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Hi Ray, I am very glad you were able to switch hands and learn to play. My situation is entirely different, as I explained above- "I have never had music theory, or played chords on piano or rhythm guitar due to an accident that left my left hand stupid, read about 1 second behind my brain.I broke my wrist, badly when I was 5 years old and we were poor so it never healed right. " What happens when I try to play is very discordant. The strumming or picking fingers are way ahead of the fretwork. there is no way to fix this. Like I also said above, I was lucky enough to have a #1 co-write, and another that got picked for a yearly Halloween CD. I'm still out there lookin'. But not physically knocking on doors.
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John Selleck -- Thanks, John! I haven't been writing lately, so I haven't been around!! Merry Christmas to you and yours! -- Lisa
Dave Rice -- And thank you, Dave! I've always appreciated your kindness in rescuing my lyrics, and musicating them!! Also, yes, my son is a junior in high school now and we're starting to look at colleges! Doesn't seem like that's possible! I hope you have a wonderful Christmas and New Year! ---Lisa
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Oh... look at Lisa! So Christmasey! Though I do miss the sunflowers. Merry Christmas Lisa, John
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Life can’t always be a bed of sunflowers, John! Rumor has it that it can’t always be a plate of cookies either! Isn’t Sandra’s name close enough to Santa that she’s obligated to get everything on your wish list?! I hope you have a great Christmas! — Lisa
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Hi Lisa and John, Great to see you both again, and Lisa, what happened? You're way too young to be Mrs. Klaus.
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We spent Christmas with our youngest daughter and her husband plus all their offspring, including three great-grandchildren... and another "on the way!" What a great experience for an old coot like me. Lots of cookies baked by my wife before we left for Marble Falls... and they disappeared quite rapidly after we arrived.
Wishing each of you a very Happy and Successful New Year. Thanks for the "update", Lisa. Time flies... so enjoy every day... write as often as your personal "muse" is willing to share with you... and maybe 2020 will bring us an even more prosperous and peaceful world. (Even for those two wayward Pacific Island People we enjoy hearing from... even though they are "ahead of us"... and never miss the opportunity to let us know! LOL!)
See Ya next year! ----Dave
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Hey John, long time no see!
My first thought in answer to your question was that it all has to do with time.
Let's look back on history and remember that this here internet thingy is NEW. At the turn of the century, way back in 2000, we were all walking around with what we called "cell phones", and I didn't even have one of those thingies until even later. (I was slow with CDs too.) The internet was here, but we were all mostly messing around, not really living here, just exploring AOL and stuff like that.
But pretty soon it opened up for us all, and we songwriters found ourselves gathering in groups on sites like JPF.
John, I consider the early days to be "The Goldrush". Lots and lots of people suddenly got together on songwriting sites hoping to get their lyrics turned into gold by a recording artist.
That right there. A lot of people came and went, and in the early golden days, a whole lot of people seriously tried to improve their chances and their quality. A lot of people on this site went off and got famous. Over at TAXI, Katy Perry had a job critiquing demos. A lot of famous people have read our threads, too!
Meanwhile, Nashville artists no longer pluck songs out of nowhere—every single one has a lot of writer credits, and they are all sewn up tight. No one is looking for your lyric online, and no one wants to pay you for it. It's all a lot harder now, and networking is everything...you really have to BE THERE, not at home, typing.
So the Goldrush is over, and most of the prospectors are gone. Feels like a ghost town now, in comparison, but the dream still calls, and the site still exists to hone our writing skills. It's just a lot quieter now.
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I think there was a gold rush for songwriters on a web site, but the goldrush for money as a songwriter never really existed.
Occasionally we get a newbie who says "i want to sell my music" "whats the best way to do it".. Most of us roll our eyes cause we know that was never really the case.
And when all the dreamers see and hear some really professionally structured and sounding songs that dont go anywhere, they start to wonder if theres will, and when they factor in the cost of making that dream come true, well they decide they'd rather feed their family or send them to college.
I think these sites used to hold more promise of making it in the music business, even though nobody really did. The dream was still pulsating, and there were still alot of folks on these sites who people believed had answers, and them same people dont even come any more, so obviously they didnt have any answers.
Now, its more of a scrap book that people show other people at the coffee table.
That shouldnt stop anyone. Somebody still has to be successful in music, somebody has to be famous, otherwise the songs we write for them wont go any further than if we released them ourselves. Just for 99.99% the risk is not worth the reward.
Last edited by Fdemetrio; 01/03/20 02:07 PM.
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Hi Mark, Good to see you again too. Dave Rice told me that there are as many people coming on the site as there were back when I was coming on regularly, ending around 2011. That means we still have the numbers but not as many people participating. What I see up top says a lot, and leaves a big question. There are 38 members and 329 guests right now, and every time i look I see about the same ratio. Why so many guests who are reading, and not contributing? Are they here for ideas for their own songs, or here to learn without contributing to the community as a whole? Either way, is isn't helping us. Like in the "Golden Years", I still try to give at least as good as, or better than, I get. I comment on everyone's threads that comments on mine, and usually more, unless I see someone that I have commented on more than once is not commenting on anyone else threads. Then I just stop visiting theirs. Like my favorite saying: "A day without learning is a day lost!", I still believe we can always get better at what we do, not just in songwriting but in life.
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Hi FD, I don't know how old you are, but there was definitely a time when songwriters made very good money. Most #1's earned them in the 6 figures. I think that's pretty good money. Today, with all the sharing, and stream-play, the money isn't there for anyone like it was. Also most songwriters owned at least 50% of the songwriting and publishing revenue. Today you usually have to kick in credits to the artist to get a cut. And if you aren't in the loop you usually have to either pay someone or give them a % to pitch your songs for you. It hasn't ever been easy but today it's a whole lot harder than it used to be.
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"Also most songwriters owned at least 50% of the songwriting and publishing revenue."
John, I have to make a little correction on that. Actually most writers, particularly at first in their careers, did NOT own the publishing in their careers. They actually had to have hits first to earn BACK their publishing,which is why Paul McCartney, still fights to get back some rights to the Beatles earlier works and why Michael Jackson was able to buy most of those rights in a very contested deal in the 90's.
Having written with over 50 number one, hall of fame and top ten writers, I can't tell you how many times I've been in co-writing situations or doing shows and the writers who you think would have been set for life, actually didn't make that much money on some of their biggest hits. Everyone has to have a publisher which are the agents for songs, in order to have ACCESS to labels, artists and producers in the first place. That is the reason everyone has always tried to have publishers involved due to their political contacts. You don't even get heard without those. And one of the problems film and television libraries often have (except the really good ones) because they can't get access to artists, producers, managers or labels. They just don't get heard.
A friend and co-writer of mine, Jim McBride, who wrote several of Alan Jackson's biggest hits like "Chattahoochie" and "Neon Rainbow", once told me, "publishing is something you EARN back, after you get hits. It's all about RENEGOTIATION." So the idea is that on your first hit or even hits, your publishing is going to go to someone else, and you will have to renegotiate on future earnings. It's a reality check that I got pretty early on in my career here, and an eye opener.As I always say, "you can tell you're in Nashville when your Uber or Lyft Driver had 'Song of the year' Two years ago."
The biggest change in the past 20 years is that you can't get anything even heard unless you write it WITH the artist, producer, or belong to a very tight circles the industry has. Now the artist or their companies are involved in everything, due mostly to the amount of money that has disappeared in the actual publishing and writing shares of songs themselves. It is now ARTIST BRANDING. Merchandise, touring, endorsements, that fuel an artist. Songs are simply the billboard signs for them.
But it is important for "stars in their eyes" writers need to know, before they get blindsided in this business. As another friend once told me, "Those who want a royalty check, must first get a REALITY CHECK."
MAB
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Hi FD, I don't know how old you are, but there was definitely a time when songwriters made very good money. Most #1's earned them in the 6 figures. I think that's pretty good money. Today, with all the sharing, and stream-play, the money isn't there for anyone like it was. Also most songwriters owned at least 50% of the songwriting and publishing revenue. Today you usually have to kick in credits to the artist to get a cut. And if you aren't in the loop you usually have to either pay someone or give them a % to pitch your songs for you. It hasn't ever been easy but today it's a whole lot harder than it used to be. No, a rare few songwriters made very good money. Not songwriters in general. If you had a hit, you could make money, but how many songwriters will ever have a hit song? And it's not much different today. It doesnt matter how far you go back, it was NEVER easy to make it in the music business, much less as a pure songwriter. Now I guess its pretty much the same odds, only, if you beat the odds, you get to have a hit with no money for the hit. So you were always looking at least an 80% failure rate for any songwriter, regardless of the time they were active. And 80% is very generous
Last edited by Fdemetrio; 01/04/20 11:46 AM.
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Hi Marc, Yes, I fudged a bit there. When I was down there for a little while the publishers i was meeting with were offering 100% 0f the songwriting and 0% of the publishing until and unless you got at least 1 hit so I put both at 50%. I ended up not being able to stay there and do my pitching myself so I gave up the dream. I am trying to ease my way back in, hoping to get in some catalogues. If I can get anything signed I may be able to get noticed enough to get a publisher but my heart won't be broken if I don't. I knew from the start, thanks to having a good friend who knew the business well, just what kind of chance I had to make any real money at this so my eyes were wide open and any money I spent was water under the bridge. Today it is even tougher.
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Hi FD, I should have said successful songwriters. Even back in the day most songwriters couldn't make a living at it but the ones that did made very good money because they didn't have to give percentages to everyone along the line. Top 10 hits paid well, and #1's even better. I know because I talked to more than one of them and listened to their stories of feast and famine. I would think your 80% is very generous, probably more like 95%.
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There are clearly exceptions to every rule, but even going back the "successful songwriters" did not become so for a while. They were generally signed to publishers and given time to develop, to even get a few cuts, before something broke out for them. Then usually, as Jerry Reed said, WHEN YOU'RE HOT, YOU'RE HOT" and everyone would come to them.
That is the biggest difference in the past up until about 20 years ago. The development time. Like artists now, you don't get one, two, or three singles or records without something happening, because if you are not hot pretty quickly, you are gone. Same with publishing deals. It was once very common to find people with deals who had either not had any big cuts or hits, but had four, five, and six years to develop and build their chances. I knew people who had two and three deals before they really hit their stride. I knew a couple of publishers who were known as the "third publishers" because their writers had had two deals before they got to their companies.
Of course, this was another one of the roadblocks to making real money as a writer. As you had one or more deals, the money paid to you through those would have to be paid back before you started getting your momey. And sometimes, those earlier publishers might close or be sold to another publisher, and you would have to go through the whole process again of paying money back.
If you were to have one of those "every ten year" songs that came out and just exploded, it would be different, but there are so very few of those, it is more like winning the lottery. So you don't even count on those. The real thing to remember is VISABILITY IS VIABILITY and you just have to keep yourself motivated and moving forward never expecting anything.
There are so many variables, it is why I always hated to even talk about money and songwriting. Most of the time, they are mutually exclusive terms.
MAB
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Marc:
As you have often said (warned us)... don't write songs for the money they might be able to bring you... write them because you enjoy writing. It took me a long, long time to let that "seep in"... and the little devil perched on my shoulder still argues with me regarding this topic. But I agree with you. I wish it were not true... but it is. There are too many lyricists, almost too many composers and would-be artists waiting to be discovered. Regretfully, the Cavalry isn't coming to rescue you. The "Fort" was purchased by unknown individuals who want to keep all the money and control all the content. Sad, but that's just the way it is.
Having said (or repeated) all the above... one should never give up hope. Miracles do happen. Terrible odds, though!
Write like your life depends upon it. Pay attention to the spelling, rhyming (or not) and most of all, find a melody that carries the listener away.
Find a way to be happy... and do something nice for somebody you know... or don't know. One thing is certain, folks like John Selleck are capable of writing challenging, thought provoking questions... and we are better for their inquiring minds.
----Dave
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Hi FD, I should have said successful songwriters. Even back in the day most songwriters couldn't make a living at it but the ones that did made very good money because they didn't have to give percentages to everyone along the line. Top 10 hits paid well, and #1's even better. I know because I talked to more than one of them and listened to their stories of feast and famine. I would think your 80% is very generous, probably more like 95%. Well, its always been the tough part, being one of the few. I personally dont think 100 k for a hit song is that much money. Especially today, but even back in 80's 90's when country was flourishing. When you take into consideration how hard it is to have a hit....nearly impossible. Usually when you beat odds that great, there is a much bigger payday like a big stock, or winning the lottery. Buy a ticket for 2.00, win 100 million. Take a 40 to 1 shot at the track and get back 40 times your investment. Having a hit song is not as unlikely as winning the powerball, but its certainly worth more than 100k. A hit song could sell 10 million copies, and the guy who created the very thing being sold gets 100K? Not great. And with this in mind, the writer now has to decide whether or not its worth doing. Dont forget the writer doesnt write one song and suddenly have a hit, hes gotta go through long perioids of rejection. Spending money on demos, and back then, mailings. Possibly moving to a big hub, by the time they have a hit they probably spent more than 100 k. The rare songwriter has multiple hits, Don Schlitz, Jimmy Webb, Jim Steinman, and guys like that can make more than an artist or band. I think if a hit song paid more, like a million to the writer, youd see alot more people living on the streets trying to do it. At least as a performer, you can do other things in conjunction with it, do gigs and covers, teach guitar, do demo sessions, AND pitch songs and also try to make it as an artist yourself. As a writer, or a lyricist, none of those are available to you. All in all, 100k back then and 0 now, it was never about the money. That's a poor payoff. Ironically good songs need a good payoff.
Last edited by Fdemetrio; 01/06/20 11:42 AM.
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Humm, Reading a lyric on the lyric boards is most of the time hard to fathom if it will translate into a marketing product. It takes working it into a song to see if it has any real potential.
Ray E. Strode
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And before those guys there were those such as Irving Berlin, Johnny Mercer and Cole Porter. In those times the singers and songwriters were seldom one and the same. The singer-songwriter combo began to take off with Dylan, although some of the early rock 'n rollers also wrote some if not most of their work. Examples: Roy Orbison, Buddy Holly, Paul Anka.
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You can think of a lyric as reading a poem. That is what song lyrics are, glorified poetry.
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I still think $100K is a nice piece of change, considering how many people still don't make that in one year. Honestly, that would triple everything I've ever put out in cash for songwriting. Of course, I worked hard to keep the costs down because I knew my chances.
But truly, either it has to be something you would do without the money or your better off not doing it. The odds are very long against ever making a dime out of it.
I disagree about being a glorified poet. Many poems would have a tough time being set to music, and even fewer would be commercially viable. You have to have some idea of what people want in a song, find a decent hook, and write a song that supports that hook. It's not as easy as it sounds.
And Dave, Thank you, I was hoping to get the lyric boards energized but while that didn't happen, at least we got people talking..
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$100,000.00 less income tax, less co-writer share, less publisher share, especially if you were a staff writer, less all other expenses like demos, postage, etc.etc. you might break even but your name would be out there as a successful songwriter with all the headaches that will bring. People wanting to write with you, sell you stuff you didn't need, etc. I'm probably down $100K over what I've earned but still I can't quit writing. Addiction to drugs would be easier to quit than songwriting. Like playing the lottery, your odds of winning are astronomical but still people keep trying. It is probably the only dream they have, that is striking the winning ticket. Even if they win, a lot of headaches come with that too.
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$100,000.00 less income tax, less co-writer share, less publisher share, especially if you were a staff writer, less all other expenses like demos, postage, etc.etc. you might break even but your name would be out there as a successful songwriter with all the headaches that will bring. People wanting to write with you, sell you stuff you didn't need, etc. I'm probably down $100K over what I've earned but still I can't quit writing. Addiction to drugs would be easier to quit than songwriting. Like playing the lottery, your odds of winning are astronomical but still people keep trying. It is probably the only dream they have, that is striking the winning ticket. Even if they win, a lot of headaches come with that too. A good majority of people who win the lottery end up spending all of it and go back to where they were. It's hard to believe but it's true. Everybody has their hand out, taxes, lavish lifestyles, bad investments. It happens to professional athletes moreso. I just saw an episode of Arods "back in the game" where he tries to help former multi millionaires get back on their feet. Evander Hollyfield went from hundreds of millions and a 20 +million dollar mansion, to a basic apartment. If you've never had money before, and suddenly become rediculously rich its easy to splurge it all. The 100 k for a songwriter seems trivial. The road to getting to that point of having a hit is costly, unless you do what some have done and go homeless while trying to do it. Then your expenses are nil, but how many are willing to do that?
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Someone not long ago asked me if I have shopped around trying to sell my material. Have thought about it but would want to know if, in doing that, I still retain all the rights to my product. Thanks for whatever info any of you may have on this. Even my own parents when they were alive seemed to think that I shouldn't take my writing beyond the hobby stage.
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Someone not long ago asked me if I have shopped around trying to sell my material. Have thought about it but would want to know if, in doing that, I still retain all the rights to my product. Thanks for whatever info any of you may have on this. Even my own parents when they were alive seemed to think that I shouldn't take my writing beyond the hobby stage.
No Parent does. Thats why so many "famous" people come from dysfunctional families. When all is well inside the home, most kids try to follow suit.
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Beechnut,
The first thing any writer should NOT use is the word "SELL." No one "sells" their songs, as in getting money for songs. It's the ultimate in amateur term. You allow people to use your material in return if it "SELLS" product or airplay, it has a return. But if you were to attempt to get your material anywhere, you would be giving up control over that product. You would always retain your writers share, but your publishing would go elsewhere. And if you utilized an artist, publisher, record label, producer, manager, etc for promoting your song past what you could do yourself, yes, you would be sharing any return on that. Same as going to a bank to get a loan You put up collatoral, sign a note, have to pay that all back. Any "money up front" as in a publishing draw or salary, would be paid back from anything you earned.
Same can be said for contests, libraries, song pluggers, etc. Any thing you cannot do yourself, you would "sub contract" that out for a percentage. And NOTHING is earned back unless the song EARNS REVENUE. This is always a very misunderstood aspect of any creative work. It is art. Art is worth what you can get someone to PAY you for it. There is no set fee.
And in this day and age, all but the biggest performing songs, artists, companies, etc. make anything at all. The Internet is the "great equalizer" and basically the platforms now are the ones that make money. And even those are having trouble. I just heard an interesting news report about HULU, the big streaming service now that is competing with NETFLIX. They have spent billions of dollars, but still make no profit. This is the same with Pandora, Spotify, and all the streaming services. They go through billions of dollars in public stock offerings, but pay very little of anything out to writers and artists and they themselves claim to be making no profits. I don't know how you go through hundreds of billions of dollars and make no profits but that is what is claimed.
Personally, I have always been told not to be too money focused on music, because most of it simply doesn't materialize. So I never have. But a lot of people sure do. I've never quite understood where people get the ideas they have, but they have them.
So anything in art is worth what you can get people to pay YOU for being YOU. That's how you "sell" anything.
MAB
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Come on guys, The $100K I was talking about was the songwriters piece, after everyone got their share but the tax man, and the taxes aren't that high unless you are successfully making at least that every year because you can average your earnings across a few years if you are not writing hits every year. Where did I get that #, from a few writers who had made that kind of money. And Marc, you are right again, selling your songs is not something most songwriters ever want to do, though some very successful ones have done it before they got famous or when they were down on their luck. Yes, today, everyone has their hand in your pocket for a share. It's a damx shame but that's what it has come down to. I had a little hope going in, but not much because of real advice from a real pro, so I wrote and made demos mostly for me. I have spent lots more along the way on things I ended up a lot less happy about.
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Forums117
Topics125,717
Posts1,160,950
Members21,470
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Most Online37,523 Jan 25th, 2020
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"If one man can do it, any man can do it. It is true. But the real question is, if one man did it, are you willing to do what it takes to do it as well?" –Brian Austin Whitney
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