Who's Online Now
24 registered members (couchgrouch, Dave Rice, ckiphen, CTthomas, 9ne, E Swartz, CWMusic, CBAY, 4 invisible), and 635 guests, and
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Member Spotlight
Posts: 4,241
Joined: September 2009
Show All Member Profiles 
What's Going On
I Paint the Town
by Songbird52. 08/05/20 08:13 PM
Best Moment Of My Life Original Song
by ckiphen. 08/05/20 07:55 PM
Edit: ALL Corona Virus Post MUST Go Here
by Sunset Poet. 08/05/20 05:20 PM
Your Guitar (Now with alternate bridge)
by John W. Selleck. 08/05/20 01:35 PM
Children of the same God
by ckiphen. 08/05/20 01:25 PM
Encore in the house of the Lord
by ckiphen. 08/05/20 01:06 PM
You Touched Me
by John W. Selleck. 08/04/20 10:11 PM
Peace of Mind
by John W. Selleck. 08/04/20 09:42 PM
ChrisWMusic
by Gavin Sinclair. 08/04/20 05:50 PM
Tell Me
by Travis david. 08/04/20 04:01 PM
Michelangelo/ re- write
by ckiphen. 08/04/20 03:38 PM
Don't Send My Ashes to My Exes /NEWER BRIDGE
by John W. Selleck. 08/04/20 01:51 PM
Natural Melodies?
by Fdemetrio. 08/04/20 09:27 AM
Piano (instrumental)
by Nigel Quin. 08/04/20 09:23 AM
::: FUNNY GROOVY SUMMERTIME :::
by Nigel Quin. 08/04/20 09:14 AM
BREATHING, GROWING
by Travis david. 08/04/20 08:06 AM
Runaway Train
by Marvin Adcock. 08/04/20 06:19 AM
This is for collaboration
by Fdemetrio. 08/04/20 12:03 AM
The Knee
by John W. Selleck. 08/03/20 09:47 PM
60 Happy Years
by Brian Austin Whitney. 08/03/20 06:00 PM
I Been There
by Songbird52. 08/03/20 03:43 PM
Conversations In A Minor Key
by Gerry. 08/03/20 10:12 AM
Busy Finding me/ demo
by Gerry. 08/03/20 10:04 AM
DAY OF RECKONING
by Travis david. 08/02/20 05:30 PM
Woodsongs: Surviving The Pandemic
by Gary E. Andrews. 08/02/20 09:16 AM
Hi it's glyn (glen)
by glynda. 08/02/20 02:48 AM
Hi It's Glyn (glenda or glynda)
by glynda. 08/02/20 02:38 AM
SHOWCASE: LYRICS/SONGS/ESSAYS BY GARY E. ANDREWS
by Gary E. Andrews. 08/02/20 02:23 AM
limericks
by Gavin Sinclair. 08/01/20 06:50 PM
Hard World Waiting
by Songbird52. 08/01/20 05:31 PM
Top Posters(All Time)
Calvin 19,834
Travis david 11,921
Kevin Emmrich 10,663
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,649
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,845
glynda 8,679
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
Colin Ward 7,909
couchgrouch 7,794
Dave Rice 7,760
Corey 7,357
Vicarn 6,618
Mark Kaufman 6,584
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
ben willis 6,107
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
niteshift 5,683
Linda Sings 5,608
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Neil Cotton 4,909
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,666
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,376
Roy Cooper 4,241
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,179
Cindy Miller 4,178
TamsNumber4 4,104
nightengale 4,096
MFB III 3,926
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,815
Dan Sullivan 3,710
beechnut79 3,580
E Swartz 3,515
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
Nigel Quin 2,846
MidniteBob 2,712
Nelson 2,603
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Fdemetrio 2,463
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,242
Judy Hollier 2,232
Wendy D 2,219
Erica Ellis 2,202
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Sunset Poet 2,032
Marty Helly 2,027
maccharles 1,988
DukeWill 1,988
floyd jane 1,985
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,650
Noel Downs 1,620
Rick Heenan 1,608
Cal 1,574
Jack Swain 1,554
GocartMoz 1,552
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
Tom Franz 1,473
RogerS 1,471
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Rick Norton 1,429
Kenneth Cade 1,429
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,408
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Deej56 1,314
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,292
DakLander 1,265
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,230
Gerry 1,220
Glen King 1,214
IdeaGuy 1,209
lane1777 1,184
AaronAuthier 1,177
summeoyo 1,172
Diane Ewing 1,158
joro 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
Tony A 1,016
IronKnee 1,009
argo 986
peaden 984
Wolvman 960
90 dB 943
9ne 930
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 829
Juan 797
TKO 784
Dayson 781
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
ant 747
Andy K 746
tbryson 737
Andy Kemp 734
Jackie444 731
3daveyO3 704
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Irwin 672
Katziis 652
Pat Hardy 641
Moosesong 640
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
CG King 622
douglas 621
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 589
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
JAPOV 563
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
R&M 527
RobertK 527
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 511
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
ckiphen 433
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
Rob L 426
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Cecilee 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
spidey 371
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#1166279 - 07/05/20 11:08 PM Natural Melodies?  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
John W. Selleck Online content
Top 100 Poster
John W. Selleck  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
NJ
Hi All,
I've heard all the arguments for melody/music first, and lyric first writing. there are points to each one. I've been told that lyrics dictate the melody/genre/time signature and percussion for songs. I personally believe that many lyrics can fit into many different genres, and some into different time signatures and percussion styles. I am first, and most of all, a lyricist. Once upon a time I played music, everything brass, mediocre at best. I have loved and listened to music, many varieties, all my life. My first experience in songwriting was in '65 with a genius guitar picker and I wrote and he picked, at about the same speed. He ended up in an asylum about a year later from LSD, a waste of a true talent. I didn't write again until 2001.

I have absolutely no clue about composing music, or the theory behind it. When I write, I write by meter, syllables all in their place, not to be jammed together, or rushed so you know what the words are when it is sung. The whole time I am writing, I am hearing the song in my head. When it is finished, I usually sing it to myself a few times to make sure it is singable, then I do a very basic acapella recording of it and listen back to it a few times to see if it feels like what I intended. Sometimes I use Band in a Box, and give it a genre/time signature/BPM/key/artist style; and it will give me back some basic chords that I will sing it to. Sometimes I even do this a few times changing up the critieria and ending up with totally different songs.

When I get together with a co-writer, I give them the option of hearing how I feel the song, or just the lyric. They have chosen different ways, and both have worked at different times. Most of the ones that chose to hear the way I felt it said I had already given the lyrics a melody, and they liked it just the way it was.

So, my question is, can a person just naturally write melody?

PS, This is not in any way meant to put down composers/musicians. I have the greatist respect in the world for what they do, and I know it is beyond me to do it.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1166280 - 07/05/20 11:28 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Lol, you've been reading round here.....

First of all, if your lyrics gave them a melody, you wouldn't need them!

Some lyricists like Jim Morrison wrote lyrics and sang them, and then the doors would figure out the music. But Jim was musical even if he didn't play an instrument. Not sure if he played harmonica, maybe.

To answer yourquestion, yes I come up with melodies even as I fall asleep, or just waking up. I started playing guitar and I was always coming up with melodies, on the guitar and singing melodies. They weren't full songs, some were two bars, and it still happens that way. I have hundreds of melodies that I couldn't finish.

The hard part has always been stringing melodies and bits together and to make them into full songs, then trying to find matching lyrics.

But yeah melodies come out of nowhere, the craft is knowing where to go with it

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/05/20 11:30 PM.
#1166282 - 07/06/20 12:10 AM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
John W. Selleck Online content
Top 100 Poster
John W. Selleck  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
NJ
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Lol, you've been reading round here.....

First of all, if your lyrics gave them a melody, you wouldn't need them!

Some lyricists like Jim Morrison wrote lyrics and sang them, and then the doors would figure out the music. But Jim was musical even if he didn't play an instrument. Not sure if he played harmonica, maybe.

To answer yourquestion, yes I come up with melodies even as I fall asleep, or just waking up. I started playing guitar and I was always coming up with melodies, on the guitar and singing melodies. They weren't full songs, some were two bars, and it still happens that way. I have hundreds of melodies that I couldn't finish.

The hard part has always been stringing melodies and bits together and to make them into full songs, then trying to find matching lyrics.

But yeah melodies come out of nowhere, the craft is knowing where to go with it


Thanks for the response.

I'e been around different songwriting sites for quite a while.

I will always need musicians and studio guys, and producers, and all the rest because I know I can't do it on my own.

I have some lyrics I can't finish, but they are on file, and I revisit them form time to time to see if inspiration, my muse, comes to visit. And my muse chooses to visit me, and sometimes wakes me from a sound sleep with an idea, or almost a full blown lyric waiting to be put down.

My hardest part, especially since I can't afford studio, and musician time anymore, is finding co-writers that get the "Feel' of my lyrics.

For me, the melodies seem to come from my lyrics and sometimes more than one melody, in more than one genre/style. When I give critiquesof others lyrics, it is only after I have read, and sung them in my head, and sometimes out loud.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1166291 - 07/06/20 01:58 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,760
Dave Rice Online content
Top 30 Poster
Dave Rice  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,760
Texas
Morning, John:

It is an "age-old" conundrum... melody versus lyric. After all these years I still believe the melody is usually most important... and the most difficult to imagine. Otherwise, JPF would be filled with melody writers/composers looking for lyricists. I have no facts on file about the percentage of each type but believe it is probably ten to one... meaning, there are about ten lyricists to every one composer or melody creator. Lumped into that mix is the "Hybrid Songwriter who happens to do both. There are Songwriters who also sing and Songwriters who actually perform.

I place those who perform at the top of the heap because they are capable of creating songs (assuming they play at least one viable instrument... such as a guitar or a piano) and can do the "whole schmeer" without needing anything from anyone except a producer, promoter, publisher... etc.

Alas, poor Lyricists tend to swim at the bottom of the pond unless they are among the few with such exceptional talent and a modicum of understanding that lyrics must be modified (usually) to fit a melody in most genres. Most lyricist never understand that necessity and resist or resent changes to their creations. Those who learn that it is a 50/50 proposition, assuming they have imagination and talent, excel in interacting and communicating effectively with those who agree to work with them.

You appear to be a songwriter on the verge of making it big if your reputation continues to grow and your imaginative words and phrases attract "Musicators" as Beth Williams (of JPF fame) called them.

Then there is the type of song being created... either a story to be told... or nothing but blissful themes with words and phrases to be interpreted by the listener as they hear it. Songs come in many colors and variations.

The history of recorded music has changed and will continue to evolve in ways most of us can't imagine. A songwriter or group of collaborators may have all the talent in the world... but without the backing it takes in monetary terms to promote the "product"... it will usually result in a lovely "flash in the pan."

The advent of "streaming" and the regrettable monetary reward to song creators will eventually cause good music to fade for a while... until the "Music Modernization Act" is turned inside-out and revised more favorably, making it worthwhile to go through all that creative effort. It won't stop the hobbyist songwriter from continuing to struggle and eventually succeed or just give it up as one of life's adventures.

I don't have to tell you... you already know that... "If you don't get immense satisfaction out of all the effort... find something better to do." I predict you will keep on writing for years to come.

Regards, ----Dave

#1166297 - 07/06/20 05:32 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: Dave Rice]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
John W. Selleck Online content
Top 100 Poster
John W. Selleck  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
NJ
Originally Posted by Dave Rice
Morning, John:

It is an "age-old" conundrum... melody versus lyric. After all these years I still believe the melody is usually most important... and the most difficult to imagine. Otherwise, JPF would be filled with melody writers/composers looking for lyricists. I have no facts on file about the percentage of each type but believe it is probably ten to one... meaning, there are about ten lyricists to every one composer or melody creator. Lumped into that mix is the "Hybrid Songwriter who happens to do both. There are Songwriters who also sing and Songwriters who actually perform.

I place those who perform at the top of the heap because they are capable of creating songs (assuming they play at least one viable instrument... such as a guitar or a piano) and can do the "whole schmeer" without needing anything from anyone except a producer, promoter, publisher... etc.

Alas, poor Lyricists tend to swim at the bottom of the pond unless they are among the few with such exceptional talent and a modicum of understanding that lyrics must be modified (usually) to fit a melody in most genres. Most lyricist never understand that necessity and resist or resent changes to their creations. Those who learn that it is a 50/50 proposition, assuming they have imagination and talent, excel in interacting and communicating effectively with those who agree to work with them.

You appear to be a songwriter on the verge of making it big if your reputation continues to grow and your imaginative words and phrases attract "Musicators" as Beth Williams (of JPF fame) called them.

Then there is the type of song being created... either a story to be told... or nothing but blissful themes with words and phrases to be interpreted by the listener as they hear it. Songs come in many colors and variations.

The history of recorded music has changed and will continue to evolve in ways most of us can't imagine. A songwriter or group of collaborators may have all the talent in the world... but without the backing it takes in monetary terms to promote the "product"... it will usually result in a lovely "flash in the pan."

The advent of "streaming" and the regrettable monetary reward to song creators will eventually cause good music to fade for a while... until the "Music Modernization Act" is turned inside-out and revised more favorably, making it worthwhile to go through all that creative effort. It won't stop the hobbyist songwriter from continuing to struggle and eventually succeed or just give it up as one of life's adventures.

I don't have to tell you... you already know that... "If you don't get immense satisfaction out of all the effort... find something better to do." I predict you will keep on writing for years to come.

Regards, ----Dave


Hi Dave,
There's lots of wisdom in thos words. I really wish I could do the whole schmeer, but unless I spend a whole lot of time learning all the ins and outs of my favorite DAW, Band in a Box, I don't ever see that happening.

The 50/50 is the hardest part of any co-writing proposition. Both need to understand the other. Many lyricists will get downright stubborn, and some of us only do when the changes really effect the meaning or feel of a song. That's why I do my acapella recordings, but to make sure the song is singable, and to give any co-writer a feel for what I'm looking for. And sometimes my co-writers come back with a different feel, even a different genre, but with the same meaning behind the song and I say let 'er rip. There are also songs I am willing to change a lot of things in, and some that are near and dear to my heart that I don't. I am learning, quickly, to let my co-writers know which are which.
My newest co-writer took "You Shine' and brought it back to me with exactly the feel I wanted without only the lyric in hand.

Thanks you for your confidence. I have always believed I have talent as a lyricist. I am beginning to believe I have talent as a singer and a songwriter. I am to old to ever become a paid singer but that doesn't stop me from singing. I also know that if I never make another dime off of my efforts, they have, and will continue, to bring me joy.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1166316 - 07/07/20 10:52 AM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Having a singable lyric isnt the same thing as having a great melody.

Just cause the lyricist thinks his or her lyric can easily be sung, that doesn't mean a great melody will be born. It's easier to come up with "A" melody when the lyric is simple and metered well, but if ten composers all tried to come up with a melody, you'd get ten different melodies, some of which would be good, others ok, others bad.

And if I was a lyrics only person, I wouldn't tell the composer anything, assume they are better than me at melody, he let them find it. Cause if I could write melody id be writing it.

The other thing is melody is one part , but there's also arrangement and matching melody with lyric, and production. sound is a completely different thing too, and the singer is another thing altogether

I knew a producer who was an absolute genius at bringing a song to the top level, absolute genius. Played any instrument greatly, could record great and create soundscapes out of songs. An arranging savant.

Two things he couldnt do, one was write songs, melody or lyric, and sing. I remember playing him a song in his controll room on his acoustic and he's like man, I wish i could do that....lol.

I'm like huh, a guy who has produced Tommy James, among others, does jingles for manny companies and does recording fixes for many companies is saying I wish I could do that?. I'm like dude no you don't get any more wishes.

But melody is just another part of it. Copyright only protects melody and lyric, that's a song. But if the chords aren't interesting or work, how good is the melody gonna be.

It's like a finished song has so many factors, collabing becomes weird. Is it collabing or is it hiring a team of workers.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/07/20 11:06 AM.
#1166337 - 07/07/20 06:39 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
John W. Selleck Online content
Top 100 Poster
John W. Selleck  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
NJ
Having a singable lyric isnt the same thing as having a great melody.

Just cause the lyricist thinks his or her lyric can easily be sung, that doesn't mean a great melody will be born. It's easier to come up with "A" melody when the lyric is simple and metered well, but if ten composers all tried to come up with a melody, you'd get ten different melodies, some of which would be good, others ok, others bad.

And if I was a lyrics only person, I wouldn't tell the composer anything, assume they are better than me at melody, he let them find it. Cause if I could write melody id be writing it.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
That's the reason for this whole thread. I have worked with various co-writers and have made the same offer to all of them, with or without the acapella for feel, not to suggest a melody. The ones that took the acapella all came back to me and said I was already singing a melody that they really liked and would use to put music to it. So the question, "Natural Melodies", was born.

I have never suggested I was smarter, or could do what composers, musicians, or studio people do. I am grateful to them for bringing my lyrics to life.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1166341 - 07/07/20 07:45 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
No I know you weren't being antagonistic. But I have seen lyrics people say "I always have an idea of how my lyrics should be sung".

That may be true if you are a lyricist/melody writer. But for lyrics people only, you probably don't have a good melody in mind, I mean the melody is not some arbitrary thing that is just a minor hitch in my songs gettiup!

It IS the song.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/07/20 07:47 PM.
#1166343 - 07/07/20 08:31 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
John W. Selleck Online content
Top 100 Poster
John W. Selleck  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
NJ
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
No I know you weren't being antagonistic. But I have seen lyrics people say "I always have an idea of how my lyrics should be sung".

That may be true if you are a lyricist/melody writer. But for lyrics people only, you probably don't have a good melody in mind, I mean the melody is not some arbitrary thing that is just a minor hitch in my songs gettiup!

It IS the song.


Ah, there's the rub, to have an instrumental you don't need lyrics at all, you don't even need percussion, or even a time signature through the whole piece. To have a song, you need lyrics and at least a spoken voice. Like I have said many times, the melodies give my lyrics wings, but people also love to have words they can understand and usually sing along with after hearing them a time or two. How many instrumentals only have you seen in the top 10 of any genre except instrumentals only. Yes, there are many timeless pieces, and yes, I love listening to many instrumentals in many different genres, but they are not songs.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1166344 - 07/07/20 08:57 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
no, instrumentals rarely become hits there were many instrumentals that got famous like frankenstein, and many surf records from the 60's But you d never see it now.

People need something to sing, so they can connect with the singer, but they don't necessarily have to be great lyrics, can be bad,. Rarely can a bad melody be a hit, it can happen, sometimes the production can carry it.

Most of my favorite artists are good lyricists as well as music makers. But a large number of songs, even by good lyric writers the lyrics are not known.

There are songs on the radio that I have heard literally hundreds, if not thousands of times, and I don't know the words to them. I know some, but not all.

When I really like a song or artist that's when I start finding out what they have to say. I know every word of many of my favorite songs, but that's only cause I made an effort to learn them.

Aside from the lyrical hook, the music has to grab you first


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/07/20 08:59 PM.
#1166346 - 07/07/20 09:01 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,760
Dave Rice Online content
Top 30 Poster
Dave Rice  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,760
Texas
All of this collective wisdom and none of has plugged into the money stream. To me, that is the ultimate measure of success in music. Our own J. L. Schick is living proof.

Grind away, my friends... let's make something spectacular! ----Dave

#1166347 - 07/07/20 09:04 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
John W. Selleck Online content
Top 100 Poster
John W. Selleck  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
NJ


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1166348 - 07/07/20 09:06 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: Dave Rice]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
John W. Selleck Online content
Top 100 Poster
John W. Selleck  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
NJ
Originally Posted by Dave Rice
All of this collective wisdom and none of has plugged into the money stream. To me, that is the ultimate measure of success in music. Our own J. L. Schick is living proof.

Grind away, my friends... let's make something spectacular! ----Dave


Grinding away...


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1166349 - 07/07/20 09:11 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Dave wisdom is all we have, nobody's going to make any real money doing this, which is why we have the time to post here....haha haha

John's not writing instrumental songs, he's writing music for tv and movie spots.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/07/20 09:13 PM.
#1166350 - 07/07/20 09:20 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
John W. Selleck Online content
Top 100 Poster
John W. Selleck  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
NJ
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Dave wisdom is all we have, nobody's going to make any real money doing this, which is why we have the time to post here....haha haha

John's not writing instrumental songs, he's writing music for tv and movie spots.


He's found his niche and he's good at it. i applaud!


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1166351 - 07/07/20 09:21 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Yes i want to get into it too. Good on him

But that's not what we were discussing

#1166354 - 07/07/20 09:57 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,760
Dave Rice Online content
Top 30 Poster
Dave Rice  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,760
Texas
You win! We know nothing!

#1166357 - 07/07/20 10:01 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Speak for yourself Dave

#1166359 - 07/07/20 10:05 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: Dave Rice]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
John W. Selleck Online content
Top 100 Poster
John W. Selleck  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
NJ
Originally Posted by Dave Rice
You win! We know nothing!

I'm a man, i know it all, except when it comes to women.
OK, I'm back on topic.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1166379 - 07/08/20 09:34 AM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,760
Dave Rice Online content
Top 30 Poster
Dave Rice  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,760
Texas
Good things happen when people work together for common goals. I'm glad you are "revved and ready" John.

I have a catalog to clean up, a foundation to establish and a funeral to plan. Wish I could join you.

All the best, ----Dave

#1166394 - 07/08/20 05:42 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: Dave Rice]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
John W. Selleck Online content
Top 100 Poster
John W. Selleck  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
NJ
Originally Posted by Dave Rice
Good things happen when people work together for common goals. I'm glad you are "revved and ready" John.

I have a catalog to clean up, a foundation to establish and a funeral to plan. Wish I could join you.

All the best, ----Dave

Thanks Dave,
You sound like your plate is too full too. Hope everything goes well.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1167070 - 07/28/20 12:17 AM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,314
Deej56 Offline
Top 200 Poster
Deej56  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,314
John,

An interesting topic and an interesting thread. As someone who writes his own songs (both lyrics and music), who puts others’ lyrics to song, and who puts lyrics to others’ songs, I’ll offer up a few thoughts . . . with the caveat that I often give: that music is subjective, that there are no rules, and that everyone works differently to equally great ends.

1. As to “I've been told that lyrics dictate the melody/genre/time signature and percussion for songs”: I’d say, “No”. Lyrics by themselves don’t “dictate” any of those things . . . although certainly the subject matter of the song may strongly influence the direction the musician goes. That is, some lyrics strike you as being “county” and others as “rock”. But I don’t believe the lyric demands one or the other. Based on experience, I think I’ve surprised some of the lyricists I’ve worked with as to the direction I went with their lyrics musically. I’m sure I’m not alone in that regard. Bottom line, if the lyrics are written first, the melody will almost always demand a change and are rarely limiting as to what the song may be.

2. You say, “I personally believe that many lyrics can fit into many different genres”: YES, absolutely agree. And that’s the beauty of music. Understanding though that the lyrics—again if written first—may have to change to fit the genre and melody.

3. It’s interesting that you write: “I have absolutely no clue about composing music, or the theory behind it” but then go on to say, “The whole time I am writing, I am hearing the song in my head.” You say you have no experience composing music, and yet you write to a melody—the song you are hearing. There’s a lot to explore here, but I’d simply say this: You don’t need to have a degree in music theory to write a compelling song . . . just a good ear and feel to what folks want to hear. Actually, I’ll amend that . . . just a good ear and feel to what YOU want to hear . . . because chances are what you want to hear is exactly what others are longing to hear as well. And lastly, the fact that you have some melody in mind—“I usually sing it to myself a few times to make sure it is singable”—suggests to me you have more than meter and syllables in mind. That’s a good thing, IMHO.

4. As for your ultimate question, conceding the answer is subjective, I’d say “NO,” you can’t naturally write melody. It goes to your point of why lyrics can often be used in different genres, and with different melodies—the lyric itself is not limiting. If you are writing absent a melody, you are writing verse—poetry—that depending on how it’s written may be adaptable to song. In contrast, it’s only fair to note that some melodies simply aren’t receptive to lyrics. Music and lyrics are a partnership, each contributing to and enhancing the other—and sometimes demanding compromise to be something special.

Just the thoughts of an amateur, for what little they are worth.

My best you,

Deej

#1167071 - 07/28/20 02:14 AM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: Deej56]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
John W. Selleck Online content
Top 100 Poster
John W. Selleck  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
NJ
Originally Posted by Deej56
John,

An interesting topic and an interesting thread. As someone who writes his own songs (both lyrics and music), who puts others’ lyrics to song, and who puts lyrics to others’ songs, I’ll offer up a few thoughts . . . with the caveat that I often give: that music is subjective, that there are no rules, and that everyone works differently to equally great ends.

1. As to “I've been told that lyrics dictate the melody/genre/time signature and percussion for songs”: I’d say, “No”. Lyrics by themselves don’t “dictate” any of those things . . . although certainly the subject matter of the song may strongly influence the direction the musician goes. That is, some lyrics strike you as being “county” and others as “rock”. But I don’t believe the lyric demands one or the other. Based on experience, I think I’ve surprised some of the lyricists I’ve worked with as to the direction I went with their lyrics musically. I’m sure I’m not alone in that regard. Bottom line, if the lyrics are written first, the melody will almost always demand a change and are rarely limiting as to what the song may be.

2. You say, “I personally believe that many lyrics can fit into many different genres”: YES, absolutely agree. And that’s the beauty of music. Understanding though that the lyrics—again if written first—may have to change to fit the genre and melody.

3. It’s interesting that you write: “I have absolutely no clue about composing music, or the theory behind it” but then go on to say, “The whole time I am writing, I am hearing the song in my head.” You say you have no experience composing music, and yet you write to a melody—the song you are hearing. There’s a lot to explore here, but I’d simply say this: You don’t need to have a degree in music theory to write a compelling song . . . just a good ear and feel to what folks want to hear. Actually, I’ll amend that . . . just a good ear and feel to what YOU want to hear . . . because chances are what you want to hear is exactly what others are longing to hear as well. And lastly, the fact that you have some melody in mind—“I usually sing it to myself a few times to make sure it is singable”—suggests to me you have more than meter and syllables in mind. That’s a good thing, IMHO.

4. As for your ultimate question, conceding the answer is subjective, I’d say “NO,” you can’t naturally write melody. It goes to your point of why lyrics can often be used in different genres, and with different melodies—the lyric itself is not limiting. If you are writing absent a melody, you are writing verse—poetry—that depending on how it’s written may be adaptable to song. In contrast, it’s only fair to note that some melodies simply aren’t receptive to lyrics. Music and lyrics are a partnership, each contributing to and enhancing the other—and sometimes demanding compromise to be something special.

Just the thoughts of an amateur, for what little they are worth.

My best you,

Deej


Hi Deej,

Thanks for the well thought out and detailed answer. I'll go straight to 4. To my way of thinking, my way of "Writing"/making melodies, either comes naturally, or is learned. Since I started this I have actually been leaning a little more toward the learned, but not in the normal way that composers learn to write. I think it may be "Ear" learning, in that it is learned from hearing so much music in my lifetime, and storing it away in that mysterious thing we call the brain. But how many children do we see/hear, walking around singing nonsensical words to melodies they can't have heard?
As for genres, the song I just posted on the MP3 board is a great example. It is "Isn't it Grand". When I wrote it, I was hearing a Norah Jones style soft jazz tune. Simon Kay turned it into a Tango, and it could easily have gone pop. Surprises are wonderful. But I do write a lot of songs I would be surprised if they went anything but pure country. LOL!


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1167202 - 08/01/20 12:14 AM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 527
R&M Offline
Top 500 Poster
R&M  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 527
I wanted to be a singer at first. It seemed to be the music that represented the singing. Often the beat first, hook and riff second.
When I get something that represents the song in my head I hear some kind of melody and what sounds much more dynamic than I can lay to a recording. Much of my idea of my vision is to try to get what sounds the most that is in my head.
That may not make that better to the listeners in itself, but at least there is a reference point.


At Soundclick:
https://www.soundclick.com/artist/default.cfm?bandID=1468037

Videos at youtube (Ads, editing film, and instrumental song docomenteries):
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGZj1g-Fb0HSN4PtzegjzIA
#1167256 - 08/03/20 09:22 AM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9,477
John Lawrence Schick Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Lawrence Schick  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9,477
PA
"I've been told that lyrics dictate the melody/genre/time signature and percussion for songs" - John Selleck

I'd say the lyrics do guide the composer's direction. Very much so with phrasing and note duration. And yes, the content of the lyrics will send me in mood directions, i.e., major / minor key and even the notes that are chosen. I'll wrap myself in the lyrics and each note will be directed at the feelings I'm experiencing from the lyrics. So yes, the lyrics do dictate the direction of the music and melody.

Best, John wink

#1167288 - 08/03/20 04:31 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
The lyrics do dictate all that, if they are written first.

How else can you write a song using the said lyrics, without allowing them to dictate how the song goes?

If you write the melody first, then the melody dictates how the lyrics go, and it's much harder to write lyrics to it.

I haven't seen many lyricists who are able to write lyrics to a set melody or even a music track. I've seen some pretty good lyricist not able to do it well. It's hard for me too. Almost never do you get a great lyric out of tracing the melody

My best comes when they both are created at the same time, and some editing later

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 08/03/20 04:45 PM.
#1167291 - 08/03/20 05:23 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
John W. Selleck Online content
Top 100 Poster
John W. Selleck  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
NJ
Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
"I've been told that lyrics dictate the melody/genre/time signature and percussion for songs" - John Selleck

I'd say the lyrics do guide the composer's direction. Very much so with phrasing and note duration. And yes, the content of the lyrics will send me in mood directions, i.e., major / minor key and even the notes that are chosen. I'll wrap myself in the lyrics and each note will be directed at the feelings I'm experiencing from the lyrics. So yes, the lyrics do dictate the direction of the music and melody.

Best, John wink


Hi John,
I didn't say they don't guide the direction, of course they do, to a certain extent. I said they don't dictate. Dictate means absolute control. And yes, words will determine length of notes, phrasing, and feel. But you can have a bunch of different composers giving a bunch of different feels from the same lyric. The genre the lyric is put to also guides the music that is put to the lyric. You can also have a different number of notes and lengths from a one syllable word.
So truly, they can guide, but I don't see them forcing a certain chording, melody, percussion, and even BPM for any one lyric.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1167298 - 08/03/20 08:11 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 1,193
Gavin Sinclair Online content
Top 500 Poster
Gavin Sinclair  Online Content
Top 500 Poster

Joined: May 2017
Posts: 1,193
Conover, North Carolina, USA
I agree with John S. Lyrics don't dictate melody, but they can suggest it. Carroll's lyrics often have that effect on me. Maybe some people just have a feeling for it that they have developed through practice.

Good lyricists know that it's not just the meaning of the words that counts. It's also not just the imagery you might try to create. There is "music" in words themselves and the way they are arranged - assonance, alliteration, repetition, just sounding good together. Bad lyricists don't get this.

Think of nursery rhymes. Nobody would say these lines are great art:
"Ring a ring a rosie
A pocketful of posie"
But people are still singing them centuries later, because they are fun to sing, independently of meaning. The repeated "r" sound, the long "o" in rosie and posie. In that particular sense, they are a better lyric than a lot of what is posted here and elsewhere.

And of course, there's "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious." smile

#1167300 - 08/03/20 09:13 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Looked to me JLS said they DO dictate the melody.

They would have to if somebody wrote a lyric and gave them to you to write music to it, just by looking at them it has to be.

My point was it works the opposite if the music/melody is written first and given to a lyricist to write lyrics. Again, the music would have to dictate if it came first.

Point was should somebody who deals in words dictate how music should be written? Rare people like Bernie Taupin could but he was a musician and singer.

Songs can and have been written many ways, but I think if looking for a great melody it's hard to do by following a lyric that's evenly metered with four lines, two lines for a pre chorus and four lines for the chorus.

How are you getting a unique melody and song that way?

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 08/03/20 09:17 PM.
#1167301 - 08/03/20 09:42 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
John W. Selleck Online content
Top 100 Poster
John W. Selleck  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
NJ
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Looked to me JLS said they DO dictate the melody.

They would have to if somebody wrote a lyric and gave them to you to write music to it, just by looking at them it has to be.

My point was it works the opposite if the music/melody is written first and given to a lyricist to write lyrics. Again, the music would have to dictate if it came first.

Point was should somebody who deals in words dictate how music should be written? Rare people like Bernie Taupin could but he was a musician and singer.

Songs can and have been written many ways, but I think if looking for a great melody it's hard to do by following a lyric that's evenly metered with four lines, two lines for a pre chorus and four lines for the chorus.

How are you getting a unique melody and song that way?


I never said the lyricist should be able to dictate how the music must be written. I'm not that naive.

Dictate: Verb- lay down authoritatively; prescribe. "the tsar's attempts to dictate policy"
Noun- an order or principle that must be obeyed.

I think if the melody came first you can put many different words to the same music.
I think if the lyric came first you can put many different melodies to it.

The melody, or the lyric can guide the other, but I can't see how it would make either force the other into a certain box.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1167303 - 08/03/20 09:55 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 1,193
Gavin Sinclair Online content
Top 500 Poster
Gavin Sinclair  Online Content
Top 500 Poster

Joined: May 2017
Posts: 1,193
Conover, North Carolina, USA
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Looked to me JLS said they DO dictate the melody.

They would have to if somebody wrote a lyric and gave them to you to write music to it, just by looking at them it has to be.

My point was it works the opposite if the music/melody is written first and given to a lyricist to write lyrics. Again, the music would have to dictate if it came first.

Point was should somebody who deals in words dictate how music should be written? Rare people like Bernie Taupin could but he was a musician and singer.

Songs can and have been written many ways, but I think if looking for a great melody it's hard to do by following a lyric that's evenly metered with four lines, two lines for a pre chorus and four lines for the chorus.

How are you getting a unique melody and song that way?


I was agreeing with John S, not JLS. Too many Johns smile

I totally agree with you about the poor prospects for arriving at a great melody "by following a lyric that's evenly metered with four lines, two lines for a pre-chorus and four lines for the chorus." I have got into virtual fist fights with people about the importance of counting syllables - it's a great idea if blandness is your aim. Both language and music have pauses, silences, places where they change pace. Counting syllables takes no account of that. That's where creating melody and lyric together is an advantage for those who can do it.

Consider the demo farms who put music to people's lyrics for a fee. It's easy to put a melody of sorts to just about anything just by picking up a guitar and speaking over chords. A good melody is a bit trickier.

#1167304 - 08/03/20 10:18 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
I agree, mainly conversational lyrics are the closest thing to melody suggesting. Cause conversations have rhythms and character and have some emotional context.

But I think overall, most of the greatest songs of all time would not have happened if the lyrics were written first.

Take yesterday for example...

No way somebody sits there and with a pen, writes these words without knowing the melody. Just the pause after yesterday, indicates the writer knows yesterday is the center word, which springs the rest . The tendency would be to make the verse four lines, when it shouldn't be balanced, because the thought is not balanced, it's an uneven feeling.

And the the tendency also would be to put more words in there to make It look better on paper. If somebody posted these lyrics alone, would anybody be blown away? But as a unit it's one of the greatest songs of all time

Yesterday, all my troubles seemed so far away
Now it looks as though they're here to stay
Oh, I believe in yesterday

Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be
There's a shadow hanging over me
Oh, yesterday came suddenly

Why she had to go I don't know she wouldn't say
I said something wrong, now I long for yesterday






Last edited by Fdemetrio; 08/03/20 10:24 PM.
#1167305 - 08/03/20 10:31 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
John W. Selleck Online content
Top 100 Poster
John W. Selleck  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
NJ
Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair


I was agreeing with John S, not JLS. Too many Johns smile

I totally agree with you about the poor prospects for arriving at a great melody "by following a lyric that's evenly metered with four lines, two lines for a pre-chorus and four lines for the chorus." I have got into virtual fist fights with people about the importance of counting syllables - it's a great idea if blandness is your aim. Both language and music have pauses, silences, places where they change pace. Counting syllables takes no account of that. That's where creating melody and lyric together is an advantage for those who can do it.

Consider the demo farms who put music to people's lyrics for a fee. It's easy to put a melody of sorts to just about anything just by picking up a guitar and speaking over chords. A good melody is a bit trickier.


Yup, at least one john in every house, 2 in most restaurants, and many portable ones at construction sites.

No fistfights here. The syllable/meter deal is a conundrum. If you are a lyricist, most co-writers want something they don't have to kill themselves trying to put a melody to. They don't want to have one line with 6 syllables and the next with 15. That said, yes it is a challenge to come up with different structures for V/C/B if the meter is the same. I should know since I write many just that way. How it is done, is by using different chord structure, key, volume, percussion, pauses, note/word holds, BPM, and feel. JQ public has no idea why they like certain songs, just that they do, and many of the songs they like are very simple. For the very distinguishing taste, they probably won't listen to very many of mine, that's OK. For now at least, I'll stick with mostly simple.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1167306 - 08/03/20 10:35 PM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
John W. Selleck Online content
Top 100 Poster
John W. Selleck  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
NJ
Hi FD,
Just a different way to look at the same lyric:

Yesterday,
All my troubles seemed so far away
Now it looks as though they're here to stay
Oh, I believe in yesterday

Suddenly,
I'm not half the man I used to be
There's a shadow hanging over me
Oh, yesterday came suddenly

Why she had to go
I don't know she wouldn't say
I said something wrong,
now I long for yesterday


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1167309 - Yesterday at 12:00 AM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Either way, such a simply stated lyric becomes epic when sung.

Yesterday is not a line of lyric though

#1167313 - Yesterday at 02:34 AM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
John W. Selleck Online content
Top 100 Poster
John W. Selleck  Online Content
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,008
NJ
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Either way, such a simply stated lyric becomes epic when sung.

Yesterday is not a line of lyric though


Doesn't it cover the same amount of notes/time as the other lines when the pause is added in? And yes, it's a great song.
A chorus using the same idea from one of my lyrics:

But sometimes---------------------- {Chorus
Life gets in the way
The simple facts of livin’
Day to day
When we try to talk it out
Can’t find the words to say
Yeah sometimes
Life gets in the way

[font:Times New Roman][/font]
And no, I'm not comparing that to "Yesterday. Another neat one for timing is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMHZ6vcufLc


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost

http://www.soundclick.com/johnsings
http://www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
http://www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
#1167323 - Yesterday at 09:27 AM Re: Natural Melodies? [Re: John W. Selleck]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
Fdemetrio Online content
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,463
The word yesterday fits because the melody has three notes, in that one spot
Same thing with suddenly. It occurs nowhere else in the song so it gives it emphasis to those words.

It's doubtful somebody would just write the word yesterday like that as a lyric only person, unless they were really really intuitive, or were musicians just writing the words first.

And try to copy that idea, "Hey let me build around one word like yesterday" chances are it won't be as good. And you won't have that melody or feeling.

I had a song called "significance" long time ago. It started with one word in the same appproach, I wasn't trying to do that it just came out. It wasn't bad, but I didn't realize I borrowed the technique and didn't realize that I wouldn't have written it if I hadn't heard yesterday before.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; Yesterday at 09:30 AM.

Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Newest Members
CWMusic, CBAY, mrpeepshow, Craig Allen, Styillz
21285 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums116
Topics120,603
Posts1,134,897
Members21,285
Average Posts Daily36
Most Online37,523
Jan 25th, 2020
Just Plain Quotes
"The standard by which I now measure the things in my life is the following: If I was on my death bed, or if I knew I had a short time to live, would this issue be important? If the answer is no.. I don't sweat it at all. If the answer is Yes, you better believe it goes to the front of the order of today's business!" -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0