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This has probably been covered already, but none of my searches are bringing up the information. I’m right in the middle of writing a lyric and no chorus has come to me yet (I have a hook), so I thought this is the perfect opportunity for me to try a different kind of song structure. I always do the same VVCV etc…and want to try just repeating the hook in the last line of the verses. So I’m wondering what considerations regarding maybe storyline, message etc…you make when writing a lyric with a repeating hook only. It’s a good time for me to think about this since the verses are really, really tentative at this point. Thanks for the help!
Kristi
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be, he must be. -- Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist
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Well, in my case I usually always have some music in mind. But one way to get there just lyrically in the way you mentioned--last line containing the hook--is to write an AABA song. That's a classic old structure that has been used for lots of songs, from "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" to "Something". Just write four parts, with 1, 2 and 4 being structured the same, and 3 being somewhat different. The hook can be in the first lines, like "Blue Moon", or in the last lines, like "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow". I'm going to be really presumptuous and post two AABA lyrics by Couchgrouch, one with the hook in the first lines and another with the hook in the last lines. Hope this helps or sparks some ideas. -mk Moonlight SkaterMoonlight skater On your little ice pond hidden in the pines Stars above are silver fruit on heaven’s vine Cool wind in your scarlet curls O lonely moonlight skater twirl Moonlight skater Finding sweet escape in leaps and figure eights Floating into dreams with wings upon your skates Spinning upward toward the sky O lonely moonlight skater fly You slip past your mother out into the bright moonglow She holds her wine just like she once held you long ago O you’ve lived a lifetime for one of your tender years Are those snowflakes on your cherry cheeks or frozen tears Moonlight skater Safe there in the mist of midnight evergreens Stars upon the ice are mirrors of your dreams Faith has found your weary eyes So lonely moonlight skater rise ©2008 Robert GeorgeFields of ForeverGhostly mist and gates of iron, silver wreath around the moon Shovel leaning on a backhoe, match struck in a midnight gloom There’s a bond among the shadows even sunshine can’t sever They surround that lonely digger tending fields of forever Men who laid like dust and litter just below an overpass Share with all a final shelter made of short and pampered grass Then there’s others who once sweated over hammers and levers While a tick-tock time clock marched them into fields of forever And November leaves are brittle, sad and brown Hanging low like the ears of some old hound Fallen ones are swept away by unseen brooms Where tonight a breeze can find some breathing room Yet a higher wind will carry leaves of righteous endeavor And they reach into the starlight up from fields of forever Now there’s smoke among the spirits from the digger’s cigarette As he kneels beside his shovel for a man he never met For success does not lay claim to people wealthy or clever But the faith of one who’s knelt down over fields of forever ©2008 Robert George
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Another option: all the verses you want, with the hook embedded in each of them. Here's a cool one by Bob Dylan:
Percy's Song
Bad news, bad news come to me where I sleep Turn, turn, turn again Sayin' one of your friends is in trouble deep Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.
Oh what is the trouble, tell me once into my ear Turn, turn, turn again Joliet prison an' ninety-nine years Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.
Oh what is the charge of how this came to be? Turn, turn, turn again Manslaughter in the highest of degrees Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.
I sat down an' wrote the best words that I could write Turn, turn, turn again Tellin' the judge I'd be there on Wednesday night Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.
Without a reply I left by the moon Turn, turn, turn again An' was his chambers by the next afternoon Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.
"Could you tell me the facts?" I said without fear Turn, turn, turn again That a friend of mine would get ninety-nine years Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.
A crash on the highway flew the car into a field Turn, turn, turn again There was four persons dead an' he was at the wheel Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.
Well maybe it's true he has a sentence to serve Turn, turn, turn again But ninety-nine years he just don't deserve Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.
That may be true said the judge from the side of his mouth Turn, turn, turn again But the witness who saw left little doubt Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.
But I know him as good as I'm knowin' myself Turn, turn, turn again An' he wouldn't harm a life that belonged to someone else Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.
Too late, too late for his case it is sealed Turn, turn, turn again His sentence is passed an' it cannot be repealed Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.
But he ain't no criminal an' his crime it is none Turn, turn, turn again What happened to him could happen to anyone Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.
At that the judge jerked forward an' his face it did freeze Turn, turn, turn again Sayin' "Could you kindly leave my office now please.'' Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.
I tilted my head an' I stood up so slow Turn, turn, turn again Without no other choice except but for to go Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.
I walked down the hallway an' I heard his door slam Turn, turn, turn again I walked down the courthouse stairs an' I did not understand Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.
I played my guitar thru the night to the day Turn, turn, turn again An' the only tune my guitar could play Was "Oh the cruel rain an' the wind.''
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Yeah, Dylan did it a lot. He wasn't the only one (Leon Payne's "Lost Highway" comes immediately to mind--Hank Williams made that one famous), but Dylan's output is and was prolific, and he's an awful good writer. A lot of the songs from his folk-rock period do not have choruses--instead, the hook is buried in the verses, often in the final line. It's good to read his stuff and see how he did it.
The fixation on "you must have verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/chorus" is a mostly Nashville affectation that is (my opinion) meaningless--even a lot of the Nashville writers seem to ignore it routinely. It is *convenient*, nothing more, to have the hook in the chorus--it's easy to ensure it gets repeated, and it's always expressed the same way. That's more difficult to do--but not impossible--if the hook is in the verses.
Plus side to not having a chorus is you can have more verses, or longer verses, or both, and that gives you more room for plot and/or character development if you want it. Hard part, I think, is you're dependent on that hook to tie everything together, like a chorus normally would if you had one.
I have done it myself; most recent effort was the Southern Pigfish song, "For Their Own Ends," which is kicking around these boards somewhere. It came out okay (though I'm no Dylan), and it was an interesting exercise. I definitely appreciated choruses more after that.
Joe
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Well, in my case I usually always have some music in mind. But one way to get there just lyrically in the way you mentioned--last line containing the hook--is to write an AABA song. That's a classic old structure that has been used for lots of songs, from "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" to "Something". Just write four parts, with 1, 2 and 4 being structured the same, and 3 being somewhat different. The hook can be in the first lines, like "Blue Moon", or in the last lines, like "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow". I'm going to be really presumptuous and post two AABA lyrics by Couchgrouch, one with the hook in the first lines and another with the hook in the last lines. Hope this helps or sparks some ideas. -mk Moonlight SkaterMoonlight skater On your little ice pond hidden in the pines Stars above are silver fruit on heaven’s vine Cool wind in your scarlet curls O lonely moonlight skater twirl Moonlight skater Finding sweet escape in leaps and figure eights Floating into dreams with wings upon your skates Spinning upward toward the sky O lonely moonlight skater fly You slip past your mother out into the bright moonglow She holds her wine just like she once held you long ago O you’ve lived a lifetime for one of your tender years Are those snowflakes on your cherry cheeks or frozen tears Moonlight skater Safe there in the mist of midnight evergreens Stars upon the ice are mirrors of your dreams Faith has found your weary eyes So lonely moonlight skater rise ©2008 Robert GeorgeFields of ForeverGhostly mist and gates of iron, silver wreath around the moon Shovel leaning on a backhoe, match struck in a midnight gloom There’s a bond among the shadows even sunshine can’t sever They surround that lonely digger tending fields of forever Men who laid like dust and litter just below an overpass Share with all a final shelter made of short and pampered grass Then there’s others who once sweated over hammers and levers While a tick-tock time clock marched them into fields of forever And November leaves are brittle, sad and brown Hanging low like the ears of some old hound Fallen ones are swept away by unseen brooms Where tonight a breeze can find some breathing room Yet a higher wind will carry leaves of righteous endeavor And they reach into the starlight up from fields of forever Now there’s smoke among the spirits from the digger’s cigarette As he kneels beside his shovel for a man he never met For success does not lay claim to people wealthy or clever But the faith of one who’s knelt down over fields of forever ©2008 Robert George Wow! This guy can flat out write. Very well written and some great imagery. He strikes me as more of a poet than a lyricist though. What genre are these songs for? They would never work as country lyrics but they are outstanding nonetheless, IMHO.
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Hee hee hee...well, since you asked: Moonlight SkaterFields of Forever
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Cool. Thanks Mark....I’m printing those lyrics you’ve mentioned so I can really look at them. It’s interesting to see how the verses accommodate the hooks and the B of the AABA fits into (or out of) the mix. Joe....."you're dependent on the hook to tie everything together"...yeah, and it's only one line, so it makes it more of a challenge in that sense. I found that Southern Pigfish song (very funny writing there! ) and will look at that too, along with the Dylan's songs more closely. Thanks! Btw, Mark....I listened to those “non-lyrics”….they sound like songs to me! Nice job there! Kristi
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be, he must be. -- Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist
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Hi Kristi, As Joe mentioned, using a one-line refrain instead of a multi-line chorus frees up space within the song to further develop the story. That's a plus, but sometimes it's difficult to write more story and still maintain a high level of creative and interesting lines. Another thing I think is important is to make sure each verse builds toward that final hookline...clearly setting it up as the power-line in the song. The reason being that, with this structure, you haven't got the luxury of a pre-chorus or standard chorus to help transition to the main hook.
GJ
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I don't believe there is a correct or incorrect formula, but definitely some interesting arguements here. Many artists have tinkered ... Stevie Wonder has some songs that are Chorus only, for example (I belive the song "Isn't She Lovely" is one such song). I have a tune (below) that has the chorus built into the verse (the music does not change, only lyrics). This creates an AAABA feel, even though it has a true Chorus. I also like to slightly alter key lyrics in my choruses so that they don't exactly repeat. In this song, the words "go, go, go" become "run, run, run," etc. Check it out: free audio on iLikeKentucky SunI can't live in the city anymore; too many women in the night. I'm headed for the Bluegrass State where people love the light and I will run. I'm on the run, run, run. Yeah, I gotta get to the Southland so I can see Kentucky sun. They call it "the meadow land," the "land of tomorrow." From the Cumberland waterfall, to the sassafras of Owensboro. I got to go, go, go. I'll find peace in the Southland underneath Kentucky sun. The riverbank near Louisville is "dark and bloody ground." Lush hills of goldenrods. And then there's the state fair grounds. There's enough for everyone. So get to the derby and help yourself to Kentucky sun. I'm not from the Big Apple with its neon night. I come from the Bluegrass State - I got to spread my wings and fly. And I'm on the run, run, run. So get to the Southland and help yourself to Kentucky sun. © Nick Edelstein (BMI)
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Hey Brecky, See, you're getting feedback! Let's see if I can think of anything to add.... Couple of thoughts...On my song with Steve Biederman, the hook "Walking Wounded" wasn't mentioned once (while using ABAB format for the verses). How do you like them apples? http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=9559In my most recent venture, "Garden of Little White Lies", I do use the hook at the end of each verse, with an ABCB format: “Garden of Little White Lies” – REVISED 7/30 © 2008 Lyrics Beth Williams Timing was never their strong suit So they just kept their eyes on the prize And planted fake smiles on their faces In their garden of little white lies Day after day though, they hungered For each other, and no more goodbyes Relied on their dreams to sustain them In their garden of little white lies Pre-Chorus: But twisting the truth can cause judgment to fade And secrets get slippery when no one’s afraid Chorus: Those little white lies Grew up 'round their thighs As they played in the shade of their garden But plant a black seed It blooms twisted and bleeds A minefield with no room to bargain Harvest time came without warning With haste, a gate left open wide Then all came to stare at the two unaware In their garden of little white lies Chorus repeat Bridge: Their love and their fate had been one and the same Until they made up their own rules to the game Chorus As a rule though, I do find myself "stuck" in the VVCVBC layout...and would be interested in pursuing some more loosey-goosey formats. Thanks for bringing up this topic, Kristi. Very interesting.... Cheers, Beth
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Interesting topic. Bill Creel and I have been discussing this in relation to a song that we are writing. My first songs did not always have a chorus. There were some comments from others here reminding me (gently) that most successful (commerically successful that is) country songs do have a chorus - but not all. If I remember correctly, the breakdown showed about 2 out of 22 of the top country songs last year did not have a chorus. (I stand to be corrected).
All the songs I write now do have a repeated chorus. It seems a stong chorus is the basis for a lot of current country songs. I am just going with the flow in that regard.
However, I don't think a good song has to have a chorus. I am sure that some songs lend themselves to a different pattern with no chorus. As above, Bill noted that Dylan had a lot of success breaking the rules.
Bill thinks that the song we are working on does not necessarily need a repeated chorus and I am leaving it to his determination.
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If you're writing for country and intending to pitch: write a chorus. Write a strong chorus that kicks up in volume and hammers home the hook. And get to it darned quick.
Those 2 out of 22 that didn't have a chorus...they probably weren't written by some new and unknown songwriter. They were probably written by an established artist...and they can do whatever. (I wish they'd do MORE whatever, and break the formula stranglehold a little more often.)
But think about it: does every song you write need to be a commodity? Not to mention, a commodity with a very slight chance of winning that lottery and becoming a million seller? Hey, I hope it does...but most don't. So...
I say write all sorts of songs in all sorts of styles. It will only improve your skills and make writing a "hit" that much easier. The more you write, the easier it gets.
Try a ballad! They're fun. The traditional ones have four line verses with this sort of meter:
A duck, a fish, a swan, a goose A wolf, a mouse, a deer A fox, a bear, a squirrel, a moose But not one lousy beer
They're great for story songs, and the hook can be repeated in any of the lines.
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lol, Mark you have a knack for stating your point and being funny too! I love reading your posts.
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GJ…you make some good points, thanks. I know what you mean that you have more space to fill out the story…I have noticed that in attempting to write this one! I am hoping to keep it a broad kind of lryic…but with more space for story, that makes it a challenge!
Nick….interesting lyric! I had never thought of incorporating a chorus into the verses….hmmm…but I definitely see it. Gee, a song as Chorus only, now there’s a challenge! Btw, I enjoyed listening to Kentucky Sun….
Beth…Thanks for posting that. Yes, I see your repeating hook and chorus. Hadn’t really noticed the structure in that lyric…interesting. It is easy to stick to the familiar way of doing things, isn’t it?
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be, he must be. -- Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist
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"It is easy to stick to the familiar way of doing things, isn’t it?" ... I would agree with this...but just because it's easy, doesn't mean it's wrong...or even bad! I think that's where the expression "Tried and True" comes from (or maybe not... :o )! Again, thanks for bringing up this topic Kristi. I'll have to check out the link I believe Tom provided as well... Cheers, Beth
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Tom…. When I started this lyric, I anticipated writing a chorus, but it just hasn’t come, so I figure why not follow where the song wants to go a bit and see where it takes me! Thanks for posting that link. I remember it now…lots of good info there!
Mark..I agree, why not experiment…there’s nothing to lose! And there’s many ways to say things but having some guidelines helps to know how to make an impact.
Beth….yep…all kinds of ways to be creative!
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be, he must be. -- Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist
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This has probably been covered already, but none of my searches are bringing up the information. I’m right in the middle of writing a lyric and no chorus has come to me yet (I have a hook), so I thought this is the perfect opportunity for me to try a different kind of song structure. I always do the same VVCV etc…and want to try just repeating the hook in the last line of the verses. So I’m wondering what considerations regarding maybe storyline, message etc…you make when writing a lyric with a repeating hook only. It’s a good time for me to think about this since the verses are really, really tentative at this point. Thanks for the help!
Kristi If it feels right do it... If you like it keep it if you don't try again A number of my songs only repeat the hook at the end of a vers rather than have a seperate chorus... I've even won a couple of songwriting and lyric comps over the last 9 years with them .... If you check out my web site... Dawgs day off (as a lyric), and , the grey with wings upon his his feet (as a song) are the two comp winners ... Tipper (which has no chorus) made the finals as a song last year.... ok so not everyones cup of tea but I like them Good luck and Cheers
Last edited by Noel Downs; 08/01/08 04:24 AM.
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Noel…You tell quite a story…I notice your rhyme scheme in “Dawg’s Day Off” ~ all three lines rhyming and then coming in with the hook which doesn’t rhyme ~ helps the hook stand out without the luxury of a chorus. In “The Grey with Wings Upon its Feet” you alternate the hook line after every two verses giving it a familiar feel. It's interesting to analyze these lyrics and others...
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be, he must be. -- Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist
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Noel's "The Curse of Carrie" has no repeating hook at all, no chorus, no bridge, just lots of four line verses. But the song is really cool and it keeps your attention by telling a great tale, from beginning to end.
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Thanks Kristi... its a very traditional style that I grew upon ... Hi Mark it's an ok lyric carried by some excellent music But Thanks anyway Cheers
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Noel...I don't see "The Curse of Carrie" on your music page. There's 22 other songs though! Maybe I'll go read a couple of those!
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be, he must be. -- Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist
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HiDee Mz Sunshine!
In Bob Dylan's Classic "The Answer is Blowin' In The Wind" he posed Three Two-Line-Long QUESTIONS, Each Verse...Then ANSWERED 'em with his Hook..(Doubled, in-essence..& Even More-Powerful when done-so.)
Dunno if Anyone's ever come up with anything Better...ever-since..on this kinda Format. Try it!
Good Luck & Big Hugs, Ol' Stan
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Noel's kidding around because I put music to this one awhile back. But read it just as a lyric and you'll see what I mean. This is a cool story-song that doesn't need a chorus or a repeating hook of any kind. Lots of older songs from centuries past, ballads and such, never considered the need for repetitions...the story was the goal.
The Curse of Carrie By Noel Downs copyright
She sat near the hearth, staring into the flames, She then cast her wish, and whispered his name. I’ve asked all gods of love, and they’ve finally heard, It’s with this hope, I speak these ancient words.
Though I know you not, I heard your name in a dream, In this very glade, by this very stream. I pray you keep safe, and find joy in your life, I pray you come find me, and make me your wife.
Across the far miles, Way out at sea, Standing on watch, He shook violently. Her vision appeared, and he heard his name called, When his soul returned, it was lonely and cold.
He soon left his ship, and his love of the sea, To wander the lands, his mind no longer free. His one purpose in life, to search the earth, To hunt down the woman, who’d made him so cursed.
{One verse/bridge instrumental}
Neath a hill on a road, where it crossed a stream, Collecting water, the girl who haunted his dreams I have not slept a night, for these three years past, Since the night that you cursed me, I’ve found you at last.
He approached her with menace, her life he did demand, At the tears on her cheek, the knife slipped from his hand, He embraced her lithe form, as she fell into his arms, The turbulent seas of his mind, were finally calmed.
As I wandered these lands, I could not take time to rest, I feared my dreams, I believed you’d called me in jest, But your soft spoken words, eased all pains of the past, My prayers are answered, you’ve found me at last,
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I do this in alot of my song writing; putting a end of verse 'refrain' instead of verse. I don't think a 'chorus' is appropriate for every song. Story songs are great for a 'refrain'.
What I really like to do with the verses is set up the way you interpret the 'refrain' in a different way. Hooks & refrains are often metaphors, therefore there are many different way to see the meaning of the words, even within the same storyline.
I've also experimented with putting repeating lines in different places. for example, I had a song where each verse was eight lines. Line one of each verse was the same, line 4 of each verse was the same and line 8 of each verse was the same. I liked the turn out. It's fun to play with structure.
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Stan…yeah, so simply done, yet so profound.
Thanks for posting that Mark…I see what you mean, transports you to another place and time. Noel, you do have a way with a story.
“What I really like to do with the verses is set up the way you interpret the 'refrain' in a different way.”……. I love when I see that! Would like to try that sometime too….takes a song to another level. I appreciate hearing how you vary the structure, Kevin. It can really help to craft a good piece of writing...
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be, he must be. -- Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist
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Thanks Kristi... You should have been here while Dawg (aka Corky Bernard) was alive... If I was only half as good I'd be a great writer.... www.soundclick.com/gallupndawg though Don't know if Bobbie still has any Dawg songs up still... Cheers
Last edited by Noel Downs; 08/05/08 10:49 PM.
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Kristy... Hi.... Tink ( Cindy Miller ) who occasionaly writes here now... used to write here a lot. She wrote many styles of lyrics.... but one of her styles she did so very well was the verse verse bridge verse I like putting melodies to that style...song...I'm not quite sure why...but am attracted to that style... Here's one of Tink's....(Cindy's)... How I wish the search engine would go back farther ....I would suggest studying some of Cindy's work on especially the V, V, B, V.... Will be back here and link you to A collaborated Tink Song... called IF...Kristy....(I'll need to pull up the lyrics and add them later...but will give you an idea of that style song... in any case..) Here's a link to the song IF .....gonna grab the lyrics and put them here in a min.... http://soundclick.com/share?songid=2077177If Lyrics: Cindy Miller Music : Kaley Willow c2003 If I allowed myself to cry Would you think I'm being weak If I asked for your shoulder Would you turn the other cheek If I told you I can't find myself Without you for a guide Would you abandon me If I broke down and cried If I asked for understanding Would you still see me the same If I told you how I'm hurting Would you help to ease the pain If I shared my shadowed past By revealing hidden scars Would you accept me If I let you in my heart If I could just stop doubting And accept that you're for real I'd have the love I'd once given up And allow myself to feel If I told you fear consumes me Would you mock my every need If I wake from a nightmare Would you hold me tenderly If I asked your forgiveness Would my words be enough Or would it be too late If I embraced your love Would it be too late If I embraced your love Miss Willow's Fence Row, and...Andy & Friends CD http://cdbaby.com/found?allsearch=kaley+willow Piano Music and Demos (Many Genres) http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=8404&content=musicChildren's Songs http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=6469&content=music
Last edited by Kaley Willow; 08/06/08 09:40 PM.
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Noel...I didn’t see Corky Bernard’s (Dawg) name on any of the lyrics on that link. (Bobbie has some interesting lyrics though! ) The “Broke Down Buick Blues” has repeating lines in the verses AND a chorus. I don’t know how you’d decide to do both….I’d be afraid of competing ideas/hooks, but people seem to pull it off… Thanks Kaley…so the entire lyric is an if/then kind of structure…with the beginning words repeated ~ makes it a very reflective song….I like the melody you came up with. I searched Cindy’s name and have yet to find the vvbv songs (there were others w/choruses). I don’t think we can go further back than a year...
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be, he must be. -- Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist
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it's OK to use different song structures you just need to have great reasons when you do here's an example of a song that is V C V C V it wouldn't have made any sense to sing out the chorus again Chain of Love artist: CLay Walker written by Jonnie Barnett and Rory Lee He was driving home one evening, In his beat up Pontiac When an old lady flagged him down, Her Mercedes had a flat He could see that she was frightened, Standing out there in the snow 'Til he said I'm here to help you ma'am, By the way my name is Joe She said I'm from St. Louis, And I'm only passing through I must have seen a hundred cars go by, This is awful nice of you When he changed the tire, And closed her trunk And was about to drive away, She said how much do I owe you Here's what he had to say You don't owe me a thing, I've been there too Someone once helped me out, Just the way I'm helping you If you really want to pay me back, Here's what you do Don't let the chain of love end with you Well a few miles down the road, The lady saw a small cafe She went in to grab a bite to eat, And then be on her way But she couldn't help but notice, How the waitress smiled so sweet And how she must've been eight months along, And dead on her feet And though she didn't know her story, And she probably never will When the waitress went to get her change, From a hundred dollar bill The lady slipped right out the door, And on a napkin left a note There were tears in the waitress's eyes, When she read what she wrote You don't owe me a thing, I've been there too Someone once helped me out, Just the way I'm helping you If you really want to pay me back, Here's what you do Don't let the chain of love end with you That night when she got home from work, The waitress climbed into bed She was thinkin' about the money, And what the lady's note had said As her husband lay there sleeping, She whispered soft and low Everything's gonna be alright, I love you, Joe the song even got it's own website http://www.thechainoflove.com
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Here's a different structure.....Kristy... Tell me if you think it works..?...then listen Because We Are I try to be so young she tries to learn from me my song is mostly sung she cli.....ngs to my his...tor y She reads every line etched on my face I feed off her silkiness She says I haven't aged I've found the milk of kindness My back up lights are growing dim Into my faded dreams she swims Carries me onto the shore and covers me.....with words...that...I adore Though I try to tell her That her time is now... I will have to suffer But she should exit ...with a bow Then her eyes become.......as....distant ....as the further est ...most star..... Says life is of this in..stance We ..are ...because....we....are...... Two lines of instrumental... those high notes. Says life is of this instance We are because we are.........in Love ©Blum, Willow http://www.songramp.com/mod/mps/viewtrack.php?trackid=36827I loved what the lyric was saying....but I remember being worried that I wouldn't be able to please Ritt with the melody...... Tis ok to say if you don't like too...... best.... Kaley
Last edited by Kaley Willow; 08/07/08 06:33 PM.
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Ande….two verses for every one chorus right? Then the final verse…I can see why this was structured in that way with the idea of the story and all…and reading the story that inspired this was interesting… Kaley…. Okay, gal….I read the lyric a couple times first before I listened. I do think it works, but..I admit, I didn’t understand some parts (suffering)…but I understand the gist of it: it’s a love song. And it's very personal. When I listened, I think the music adds to the bittersweet feelings beneath the words. Again, a very personal feel to it. Very pretty, yet somber as well. The lyric sort of lays it all out and then just quietly ends with reflection...which is complimented by your music...fair to say the structure depends on your goal?...thanks for sharing that!
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be, he must be. -- Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist
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evenin' Kristy !!....I thought Ritt was beautifully poetic....in a song about love where one is much older than the other... The singer will suffer...(in her leaving)..but He's giving her an ...out ..because he's looking ahead and thinking it's best for her. She turns around and says...no way.... We are because we are;....that she's in it for the long haul;... that's what I got out of it........Never did ask Ritt though but ...the structure itself..lyrical structure was different...yet.....it works!!.. and I might say looking at it from a lyrical standpoint (structure wise)...Yikes!!!.. just not typical....of a v c v c or v v bv .....or v c v c b c........ I'm not exactly sure what category the structure would fall in. but had a feeling you might like to see it because it was different.... very best to you this evenin...gal... Kaley....
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it's OK to use different song structures you just need to have great reasons when you do here's an example of a song that is V C V C V it wouldn't have made any sense to sing out the chorus again Chain of Love artist: CLay Walker written by Jonnie Barnett and Rory Lee He was driving home one evening, In his beat up Pontiac When an old lady flagged him down, Her Mercedes had a flat He could see that she was frightened, Standing out there in the snow 'Til he said I'm here to help you ma'am, By the way my name is Joe She said I'm from St. Louis, And I'm only passing through I must have seen a hundred cars go by, This is awful nice of you When he changed the tire, And closed her trunk And was about to drive away, She said how much do I owe you Here's what he had to say You don't owe me a thing, I've been there too Someone once helped me out, Just the way I'm helping you If you really want to pay me back, Here's what you do Don't let the chain of love end with you Well a few miles down the road, The lady saw a small cafe She went in to grab a bite to eat, And then be on her way But she couldn't help but notice, How the waitress smiled so sweet And how she must've been eight months along, And dead on her feet And though she didn't know her story, And she probably never will When the waitress went to get her change, From a hundred dollar bill The lady slipped right out the door, And on a napkin left a note There were tears in the waitress's eyes, When she read what she wrote You don't owe me a thing, I've been there too Someone once helped me out, Just the way I'm helping you If you really want to pay me back, Here's what you do Don't let the chain of love end with you That night when she got home from work, The waitress climbed into bed She was thinkin' about the money, And what the lady's note had said As her husband lay there sleeping, She whispered soft and low Everything's gonna be alright, I love you, Joe the song even got it's own website http://www.thechainoflove.com \ Now, to me that is country, true country, tells a story and plays on your emotions. Too few being heard today IMHO
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and the light just went on...DING ...more importantly...where is your song you're working on Gal?....is it up on the board somewhere....that folks could offer up? very best... Kaley....
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There's a lot of talk about song structure here and sellability of a song. I'm going to offer a riddle here (Tom Shea you can't answer this because you already know the answer). If someone were to post a song in the lyrics forum for a critique that had only a verse, a chorus, a place for a lead instrument and then a slightly different chorus, (or at least that's the way I interpret the structure) what would the results be? This is definately stretching the acceptable "rules" to the limit. This was an actual hit song by a well known artist. Can anyone tell me what song this was? Put on your thinking caps. www.10-acre-recording-studio.comwww.soundclick.com/billcreelwww.myspace.com/billcreelwww.musicplaces.com/bill_creelwww.virtualmusicmarket.comwww.billcreel.com
Bill Creel
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Ok, it's a tough one so I'll give you a hint. The original song was in the form verse chorus verse chorus. It was written in 1945. The singer I'm referring to above decided to drop one of the verses and recorded it in 1975. It's in the country genre. The song had been recorded by at least 3 different people before it was recorded in the modified form in 75.
Bill Creel
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I so loved that song and haven't heard it in a while I like the structure. It is so often that we stick to what we know because we are comfortable. I applaud you for trying something different.
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Kaley……Oh okay, the suffering is him, if she left…I was thinking in his old age…..I see that now in your explanation…and yes, I did enjoy seeing this structure. If you separate it differently, maybe you could call it a v v b v v song? I don’t know…just going by the rhyme scheme! It’s fun to kind of pick these apart to see how they work, ya know? Oh…and the lyric I’m working on? ...I think I’d like to enter it on the mentor critique next time around. If I don’t do the mentor/critique, I’ll toss it up on the lyric board so yes, I can get some much needed feedback! Thanks for asking! Bill….I wish I had a guess for ya! But I’m terrible with naming things….give us another hint….! April…it is fun to experiment…in my case, I was stuck writing anyway, so why not, right? Kristi
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be, he must be. -- Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist
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Ok Kristi, here's another hint for you. The first name of the artist that had a hit with the song he had changed the song structure on is Willie. The first letter in the song title is B. You should be able to guess it now. I won't keep torturing you. lol! The point I'm trying to make here is, nothing is etched in stone when it comes to song structure. A lot of people have experimented before and were successful veering away from established structure. I personally think that even if you sing the song backwards, if the song sounds good to the listener, then who cares what structure its in. The key word there though is if it sounds good to the listener. I believe the structure sometimes takes away some of our creativity because we have to make something fit into a mold.
Bill Creel
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Well, according to your clues…here’s my guess…
Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain Written by Fred Rose, 1945
In the twilight glow I see her Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain. As we kissed good-bye and parted, I knew we'd never meet again.
Love is like a dying ember. Where only memories remain. Through the ages I'll remember- Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain.
Now my hair has turned to silver. All my life I've loved in vain. I can see her star in heaven. Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain.
Someday when we meet up yonder, We'll stroll hand in hand again. In a land that knows no parting- Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain.
Willie Nelson took out that 3rd verse and inserted an instrumental there…am I right? I notice it has that repeating last line in the verses there. Yeah, I agree…we have to be careful not to let structure get in the way of creativity!
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be, he must be. -- Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist
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BLUE EYES CRYING IN THE RAIN recorded by: ELTON BRITT, THE SONS OF THE PIONEERS, SLIM WHITMAN, FERLIN HUSKY, WILLIE NELSON, and maybe others I am unaware of.
Some recorded all the verses some only recorded two verses.
I believe the actual date was 1943 that Fred Rose wrote it or copyrighted it.
The middle verse: NOW MY HAIR HAS TURNED TO SILVER, ALL MY LIFE I'VE LOVED IN VAIN, I CAN SEE HER STAR IN HEAVEN, BLUE EYES CRYING IN THE RAIN, was not recorded by some.
I first heard it by Slim Whitman of which I think was recorded in 1953.
Ray E. Strode
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Hi Ray, among those you mentioned, I believe Hank Williams, Red Foley, and Hank Locklin also recorded that song. Thanks for the input. We can only hope to write a song like that that will be recorded by many people through the years.
Bill Creel
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Hey Kristi and everyone...
This has been quite the interesting thread... I'm sorry I missed it's inception, but I'm glad I finaly got here to take a look. I too find myself in a rut sometimes... just writing vvcbvc or some variant... I also like to break out of the mold and try something different... I still can't go solely on the AAA format, but I have gotten to the point of where I do some AABA's. So in time maybe I'll get myself acustomed to trying new things... Here is a couple of examples of my work that have stepped into different structures. Both of these were inspired by Dylan and his use of story telling in verses and adding the hook in ( I added it in the end on both songs)
Shameful desires
1st Verse Eloquence in each step she takes Like a doe on a pillow of clouds The essence of beauty in her right hand While lies spill out of her mouth Illusions of splendor and grace Give way underneath the shroud What you aren’t hearing her say Is said in her actions out loud Caught in a web of deception Like a moth attracted by fire Soon you’ll be cremated by Your shameful desires
2nd A golden goose for your repast With a silver spoon as a utensil While millions die of starvation You write them all off with a pencil You’ve cars and homes by the score Yet you’ve never given one cent no! Though one day you’ll have to account And your spirit it may be sent low A heart overflowing with greed Quenched only by flames and the fire Soon you’ll be cremated by Your shameful desires
Bridge Woe to those whose hopes and joy Lie in things of waste and want All the palaces of today Become the mansions ghosts will haunt
3rd There’s a still small voice crying out Proclaiming thoughts of redemption Desiring to give you a new heart and soul And absolution from your pretension Won’t ya listen closely and heed the call Your wounds could use some attention You won’t be saved by your IRA There’s not enough left in your pension Give over all you think is yours Lest it all be burned in the fire Don’t be chained down by Your shameful desires
Copyright August 9, 2008 Derek Hines All Rights Reserved
Wherever this road may lead
1st Verse Surrounded by poisonous snakes With some kinda cum laude degrees Shimmering suits outside of the shade Their eyes alighting with greed Seeking to devour my heart and my soul Nothing it seems will appease As my creations bubble and boil They’re coated with self righteous greed Though my works are tarnished by fame I’ll still reap from planting the seed Just going along with the game Wherever this road may lead
2nd Verse Every man’s a prisoner With some kinda ball and a chain Most of the time he’s covered in dirt Cept when he’s drowin’ in the rain Tied down to standards and status Not free to seek his own will Wanting his blood and sweat for gratis Enslaving him to thoughts of overkill He’ll leap through circles of flames With no chance he’ll ever be freed Just going along with game Wherever this road may lead
Bridge A fighter gets felled like the mightiest oak then the media sets him ablaze The cowboys get slaughtered and the ones who survive give up on their rodeo ways
3rd Amazed how the mighty have fallen Each one’s strength now giving way The voice of the reaper is callin’ Meals over surrender your cup and tray As you slip from the limelight to twilight Your existence is clouded with doubt As a famous bluesman once told you Nobody loves you when you’re down and out You know you’ve got no one to blame Lay down your arms and succeed Just go right along with the game Wherever this road may lead
Copyright March 28, 2008 Derek Hines All Rights Reserved
Both songs are very similar in structure and I hope to expand on this structure and try new things, though as others have said it certainly isn't the commercial approach, but I would rather diversify now than get stuck in the same boring mold.. Derek
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Bill, I can find no place where either Red Foley or Hank Locklin recorded Blue Eyes Crying in The Rain. And I have heard most of their music over the years. Hank Williams did not release the song in his lifetime. I have heard Lp's of him and just his guitar where he recorded songs that were put together and released after he died.
I seem to remember that the song may have been among the songs that were saved out of the trash by someone and them re-claimed by the family just recently. They were old recordings on acetate records that were thrown out and weren't considered worth anything. Those recordings may be avaliable now on CD.
Fred Rose was part of the Acuff Rose Publishing House and was a mentor to Hank.
Ray E. Strode
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Ray, try this google page. This is where I got some of my information. This is the page that said Hank Williams recorded it.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rls=HPIC,HPIC:2006-20,HPIC:en&q=blue+eyes+crying+in+the+rain%2blyrics
Of course I'm just going on someone else's information there. I don't know this for a fact first hand. I was just mainly making a point about song structure.
Bill Creel
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Ray, check out the link below. Sure sounds like Hank to me. The more I research this song, the more people I find that have recorded it. It's definately a "standard". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP_lxNcICqE
Bill Creel
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Here is a link to Red Foley singing Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain on a Grand Old Opry broadcast from January 8, 1948. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsJDGx_YOnY He probably never recorded it for a record, but like Hank Williams, they were captured on live recordings from radio broadcasts.
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