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This has probably been covered already, but none of my searches are bringing up the information. I’m right in the middle of writing a lyric and no chorus has come to me yet (I have a hook), so I thought this is the perfect opportunity for me to try a different kind of song structure. I always do the same VVCV etc…and want to try just repeating the hook in the last line of the verses. So I’m wondering what considerations regarding maybe storyline, message etc…you make when writing a lyric with a repeating hook only. It’s a good time for me to think about this since the verses are really, really tentative at this point. Thanks for the help!

Kristi


A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be,
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Well, in my case I usually always have some music in mind. But one way to get there just lyrically in the way you mentioned--last line containing the hook--is to write an AABA song. That's a classic old structure that has been used for lots of songs, from "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" to "Something". Just write four parts, with 1, 2 and 4 being structured the same, and 3 being somewhat different. The hook can be in the first lines, like "Blue Moon", or in the last lines, like "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow".

I'm going to be really presumptuous and post two AABA lyrics by Couchgrouch, one with the hook in the first lines and another with the hook in the last lines. Hope this helps or sparks some ideas. smile -mk

Moonlight Skater

Moonlight skater
On your little ice pond hidden in the pines
Stars above are silver fruit on heaven’s vine
Cool wind in your scarlet curls
O lonely moonlight skater twirl

Moonlight skater
Finding sweet escape in leaps and figure eights
Floating into dreams with wings upon your skates
Spinning upward toward the sky
O lonely moonlight skater fly

You slip past your mother out into the bright moonglow
She holds her wine just like she once held you long ago
O you’ve lived a lifetime for one of your tender years
Are those snowflakes on your cherry cheeks or frozen tears

Moonlight skater
Safe there in the mist of midnight evergreens
Stars upon the ice are mirrors of your dreams
Faith has found your weary eyes
So lonely moonlight skater rise

©2008 Robert George


Fields of Forever

Ghostly mist and gates of iron, silver wreath around the moon
Shovel leaning on a backhoe, match struck in a midnight gloom
There’s a bond among the shadows even sunshine can’t sever
They surround that lonely digger tending fields of forever

Men who laid like dust and litter just below an overpass
Share with all a final shelter made of short and pampered grass
Then there’s others who once sweated over hammers and levers
While a tick-tock time clock marched them into fields of forever

And November leaves are brittle, sad and brown
Hanging low like the ears of some old hound
Fallen ones are swept away by unseen brooms
Where tonight a breeze can find some breathing room
Yet a higher wind will carry leaves of righteous endeavor
And they reach into the starlight up from fields of forever

Now there’s smoke among the spirits from the digger’s cigarette
As he kneels beside his shovel for a man he never met
For success does not lay claim to people wealthy or clever
But the faith of one who’s knelt down over fields of forever

©2008 Robert George

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Another option: all the verses you want, with the hook embedded in each of them. Here's a cool one by Bob Dylan:

Percy's Song

Bad news, bad news come to me where I sleep
Turn, turn, turn again
Sayin' one of your friends is in trouble deep
Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.

Oh what is the trouble, tell me once into my ear
Turn, turn, turn again
Joliet prison an' ninety-nine years
Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.

Oh what is the charge of how this came to be?
Turn, turn, turn again
Manslaughter in the highest of degrees
Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.

I sat down an' wrote the best words that I could write
Turn, turn, turn again
Tellin' the judge I'd be there on Wednesday night
Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.

Without a reply I left by the moon
Turn, turn, turn again
An' was his chambers by the next afternoon
Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.

"Could you tell me the facts?" I said without fear
Turn, turn, turn again
That a friend of mine would get ninety-nine years
Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.

A crash on the highway flew the car into a field
Turn, turn, turn again
There was four persons dead an' he was at the wheel
Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.

Well maybe it's true he has a sentence to serve
Turn, turn, turn again
But ninety-nine years he just don't deserve
Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.

That may be true said the judge from the side of his mouth
Turn, turn, turn again
But the witness who saw left little doubt
Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.

But I know him as good as I'm knowin' myself
Turn, turn, turn again
An' he wouldn't harm a life that belonged to someone else
Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.

Too late, too late for his case it is sealed
Turn, turn, turn again
His sentence is passed an' it cannot be repealed
Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.

But he ain't no criminal an' his crime it is none
Turn, turn, turn again
What happened to him could happen to anyone
Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.

At that the judge jerked forward an' his face it did freeze
Turn, turn, turn again
Sayin' "Could you kindly leave my office now please.''
Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.

I tilted my head an' I stood up so slow
Turn, turn, turn again
Without no other choice except but for to go
Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.

I walked down the hallway an' I heard his door slam
Turn, turn, turn again
I walked down the courthouse stairs an' I did not understand
Turn, turn to the rain an' the wind.

I played my guitar thru the night to the day
Turn, turn, turn again
An' the only tune my guitar could play
Was "Oh the cruel rain an' the wind.''

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Yeah, Dylan did it a lot. He wasn't the only one (Leon Payne's "Lost Highway" comes immediately to mind--Hank Williams made that one famous), but Dylan's output is and was prolific, and he's an awful good writer. A lot of the songs from his folk-rock period do not have choruses--instead, the hook is buried in the verses, often in the final line. It's good to read his stuff and see how he did it.

The fixation on "you must have verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/chorus" is a mostly Nashville affectation that is (my opinion) meaningless--even a lot of the Nashville writers seem to ignore it routinely. It is *convenient*, nothing more, to have the hook in the chorus--it's easy to ensure it gets repeated, and it's always expressed the same way. That's more difficult to do--but not impossible--if the hook is in the verses.

Plus side to not having a chorus is you can have more verses, or longer verses, or both, and that gives you more room for plot and/or character development if you want it. Hard part, I think, is you're dependent on that hook to tie everything together, like a chorus normally would if you had one.

I have done it myself; most recent effort was the Southern Pigfish song, "For Their Own Ends," which is kicking around these boards somewhere. It came out okay (though I'm no Dylan), and it was an interesting exercise. I definitely appreciated choruses more after that.

Joe

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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Well, in my case I usually always have some music in mind. But one way to get there just lyrically in the way you mentioned--last line containing the hook--is to write an AABA song. That's a classic old structure that has been used for lots of songs, from "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" to "Something". Just write four parts, with 1, 2 and 4 being structured the same, and 3 being somewhat different. The hook can be in the first lines, like "Blue Moon", or in the last lines, like "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow".

I'm going to be really presumptuous and post two AABA lyrics by Couchgrouch, one with the hook in the first lines and another with the hook in the last lines. Hope this helps or sparks some ideas. smile -mk

Moonlight Skater

Moonlight skater
On your little ice pond hidden in the pines
Stars above are silver fruit on heaven’s vine
Cool wind in your scarlet curls
O lonely moonlight skater twirl

Moonlight skater
Finding sweet escape in leaps and figure eights
Floating into dreams with wings upon your skates
Spinning upward toward the sky
O lonely moonlight skater fly

You slip past your mother out into the bright moonglow
She holds her wine just like she once held you long ago
O you’ve lived a lifetime for one of your tender years
Are those snowflakes on your cherry cheeks or frozen tears

Moonlight skater
Safe there in the mist of midnight evergreens
Stars upon the ice are mirrors of your dreams
Faith has found your weary eyes
So lonely moonlight skater rise

©2008 Robert George


Fields of Forever

Ghostly mist and gates of iron, silver wreath around the moon
Shovel leaning on a backhoe, match struck in a midnight gloom
There’s a bond among the shadows even sunshine can’t sever
They surround that lonely digger tending fields of forever

Men who laid like dust and litter just below an overpass
Share with all a final shelter made of short and pampered grass
Then there’s others who once sweated over hammers and levers
While a tick-tock time clock marched them into fields of forever

And November leaves are brittle, sad and brown
Hanging low like the ears of some old hound
Fallen ones are swept away by unseen brooms
Where tonight a breeze can find some breathing room
Yet a higher wind will carry leaves of righteous endeavor
And they reach into the starlight up from fields of forever

Now there’s smoke among the spirits from the digger’s cigarette
As he kneels beside his shovel for a man he never met
For success does not lay claim to people wealthy or clever
But the faith of one who’s knelt down over fields of forever

©2008 Robert George


Wow! This guy can flat out write. Very well written and some great imagery. He strikes me as more of a poet than a lyricist though. What genre are these songs for? They would never work as country lyrics but they are outstanding nonetheless, IMHO.


Fisherman hook fish; songwriters fish for hooks

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Hee hee hee...well, since you asked:

Moonlight Skater

Fields of Forever

grin

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Cool. Thanks Mark....I’m printing those lyrics you’ve mentioned so I can really look at them. It’s interesting to see how the verses accommodate the hooks and the B of the AABA fits into (or out of) the mix.

Joe....."you're dependent on the hook to tie everything together"...yeah, and it's only one line, so it makes it more of a challenge in that sense. I found that Southern Pigfish song (very funny writing there! grin) and will look at that too, along with the Dylan's songs more closely. Thanks!

Btw, Mark....I listened to those “non-lyrics”….they sound like songs to me! Nice job there! smile

Kristi


A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be,
he must be. -- Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist
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Hi Kristi,
As Joe mentioned, using a one-line refrain instead of a multi-line chorus frees up space within the song to further develop the story. That's a plus, but sometimes it's difficult to write more story and still maintain a high level of creative and interesting lines.
Another thing I think is important is to make sure each verse builds toward that final hookline...clearly setting it up as the power-line in the song. The reason being that, with this structure, you haven't got the luxury of a pre-chorus or standard chorus to help transition to the main hook.

GJ

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I don't believe there is a correct or incorrect formula, but definitely some interesting arguements here. Many artists have tinkered ... Stevie Wonder has some songs that are Chorus only, for example (I belive the song "Isn't She Lovely" is one such song).

I have a tune (below) that has the chorus built into the verse (the music does not change, only lyrics). This creates an AAABA feel, even though it has a true Chorus. I also like to slightly alter key lyrics in my choruses so that they don't exactly repeat. In this song, the words "go, go, go" become "run, run, run," etc. Check it out: free audio on iLike

Kentucky Sun
I can't live in the city anymore; too many women in the night.
I'm headed for the Bluegrass State where people love the light and I will run.
I'm on the run, run, run.
Yeah, I gotta get to the Southland so I can see Kentucky sun.

They call it "the meadow land," the "land of tomorrow."
From the Cumberland waterfall, to the sassafras of Owensboro.
I got to go, go, go.
I'll find peace in the Southland underneath Kentucky sun.

The riverbank near Louisville is "dark and bloody ground."
Lush hills of goldenrods. And then there's the state fair grounds.
There's enough for everyone.
So get to the derby and help yourself to Kentucky sun.

I'm not from the Big Apple with its neon night.
I come from the Bluegrass State - I got to spread my wings and fly.
And I'm on the run, run, run.
So get to the Southland and help yourself to Kentucky sun.

© Nick Edelstein (BMI)

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Hey Brecky,

See, you're getting feedback!

Let's see if I can think of anything to add....

Couple of thoughts...On my song with Steve Biederman, the hook "Walking Wounded" wasn't mentioned once (while using ABAB format for the verses). How do you like them apples?

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=9559

In my most recent venture, "Garden of Little White Lies", I do use the hook at the end of each verse, with an ABCB format:

“Garden of Little White Lies” – REVISED 7/30
© 2008 Lyrics Beth Williams

Timing was never their strong suit
So they just kept their eyes on the prize
And planted fake smiles on their faces
In their garden of little white lies

Day after day though, they hungered
For each other, and no more goodbyes
Relied on their dreams to sustain them
In their garden of little white lies

Pre-Chorus:
But twisting the truth can cause judgment to fade
And secrets get slippery when no one’s afraid

Chorus:
Those little white lies
Grew up 'round their thighs
As they played in the shade of their garden
But plant a black seed
It blooms twisted and bleeds
A minefield with no room to bargain

Harvest time came without warning
With haste, a gate left open wide
Then all came to stare at the two unaware
In their garden of little white lies

Chorus repeat

Bridge:
Their love and their fate had been one and the same
Until they made up their own rules to the game

Chorus


As a rule though, I do find myself "stuck" in the VVCVBC layout...and would be interested in pursuing some more loosey-goosey formats.

Thanks for bringing up this topic, Kristi. Very interesting....

Cheers,
Beth


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=949237

http://www.myspace.com/goldencatfish

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Interesting topic. Bill Creel and I have been discussing this in relation to a song that we are writing. My first songs did not always have a chorus. There were some comments from others here reminding me (gently) that most successful (commerically successful that is) country songs do have a chorus - but not all. If I remember correctly, the breakdown showed about 2 out of 22 of the top country songs last year did not have a chorus. (I stand to be corrected).

All the songs I write now do have a repeated chorus. It seems a stong chorus is the basis for a lot of current country songs. I am just going with the flow in that regard.

However, I don't think a good song has to have a chorus. I am sure that some songs lend themselves to a different pattern with no chorus. As above, Bill noted that Dylan had a lot of success breaking the rules.

Bill thinks that the song we are working on does not necessarily need a repeated chorus and I am leaving it to his determination.


Thomas Shea

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http://www.soundclick.com/thomasshea

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http://www.soundclick.com/justice-nebraska

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Kristi, by the way, here is another recent thread on the topic (which I started). It has somne interesting perspectives.

http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/631698/page/1#Post631698


Tom


Thomas Shea

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If you're writing for country and intending to pitch: write a chorus. Write a strong chorus that kicks up in volume and hammers home the hook. And get to it darned quick.

Those 2 out of 22 that didn't have a chorus...they probably weren't written by some new and unknown songwriter. They were probably written by an established artist...and they can do whatever. (I wish they'd do MORE whatever, and break the formula stranglehold a little more often.)

But think about it: does every song you write need to be a commodity? Not to mention, a commodity with a very slight chance of winning that lottery and becoming a million seller? Hey, I hope it does...but most don't. So...

I say write all sorts of songs in all sorts of styles. It will only improve your skills and make writing a "hit" that much easier. The more you write, the easier it gets.

Try a ballad! They're fun. The traditional ones have four line verses with this sort of meter:

A duck, a fish, a swan, a goose
A wolf, a mouse, a deer
A fox, a bear, a squirrel, a moose
But not one lousy beer

They're great for story songs, and the hook can be repeated in any of the lines.

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lol, Mark you have a knack for stating your point and being funny too! I love reading your posts.

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GJ…you make some good points, thanks. I know what you mean that you have more space to fill out the story…I have noticed that in attempting to write this one! I am hoping to keep it a broad kind of lryic…but with more space for story, that makes it a challenge!

Nick….interesting lyric! I had never thought of incorporating a chorus into the verses….hmmm…but I definitely see it. Gee, a song as Chorus only, now there’s a challenge! Btw, I enjoyed listening to Kentucky Sun….

Beth…Thanks for posting that. Yes, I see your repeating hook and chorus. Hadn’t really noticed the structure in that lyric…interesting. It is easy to stick to the familiar way of doing things, isn’t it?


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"It is easy to stick to the familiar way of doing things, isn’t it?" ...

I would agree with this...but just because it's easy, doesn't mean it's wrong...or even bad! grin

I think that's where the expression "Tried and True" comes from (or maybe not... :o )!

Again, thanks for bringing up this topic Kristi. I'll have to check out the link I believe Tom provided as well...

Cheers,
Beth


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Tom…. When I started this lyric, I anticipated writing a chorus, but it just hasn’t come, so I figure why not follow where the song wants to go a bit and see where it takes me! Thanks for posting that link. I remember it now…lots of good info there!

Mark..I agree, why not experiment…there’s nothing to lose! And there’s many ways to say things but having some guidelines helps to know how to make an impact.

Beth….yep…all kinds of ways to be creative!


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Originally Posted by Kristi McKeever
This has probably been covered already, but none of my searches are bringing up the information. I’m right in the middle of writing a lyric and no chorus has come to me yet (I have a hook), so I thought this is the perfect opportunity for me to try a different kind of song structure. I always do the same VVCV etc…and want to try just repeating the hook in the last line of the verses. So I’m wondering what considerations regarding maybe storyline, message etc…you make when writing a lyric with a repeating hook only. It’s a good time for me to think about this since the verses are really, really tentative at this point. Thanks for the help!

Kristi


If it feels right do it... If you like it keep it if you don't try again smile

A number of my songs only repeat the hook at the end of a vers rather than have a seperate chorus... I've even won a couple of songwriting and lyric comps over the last 9 years with them ....

If you check out my web site... Dawgs day off (as a lyric), and , the grey with wings upon his his feet (as a song) are the two comp winners ... Tipper (which has no chorus) made the finals as a song last year.... ok so not everyones cup of tea but I like them smile

Good luck and Cheers

Last edited by Noel Downs; 08/01/08 04:24 AM.



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Noel…You tell quite a story…I notice your rhyme scheme in “Dawg’s Day Off” ~ all three lines rhyming and then coming in with the hook which doesn’t rhyme ~ helps the hook stand out without the luxury of a chorus. In “The Grey with Wings Upon its Feet” you alternate the hook line after every two verses giving it a familiar feel. It's interesting to analyze these lyrics and others...


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Noel's "The Curse of Carrie" has no repeating hook at all, no chorus, no bridge, just lots of four line verses. But the song is really cool and it keeps your attention by telling a great tale, from beginning to end.

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Thanks Kristi... its a very traditional style that I grew upon ...

Hi Mark it's an ok lyric carried by some excellent music smile But Thanks anyway smile

Cheers




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Noel...I don't see "The Curse of Carrie" on your music page. There's 22 other songs though! Maybe I'll go read a couple of those!


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HiDee Mz Sunshine!

In Bob Dylan's Classic "The Answer is Blowin' In The Wind" he posed Three Two-Line-Long QUESTIONS, Each Verse...Then ANSWERED 'em with his Hook..(Doubled, in-essence..& Even More-Powerful when done-so.)

Dunno if Anyone's ever come up with anything Better...ever-since..on this kinda Format. Try it!

Good Luck & Big Hugs,
Ol' Stan

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Noel's kidding around because I put music to this one awhile back. But read it just as a lyric and you'll see what I mean. This is a cool story-song that doesn't need a chorus or a repeating hook of any kind. Lots of older songs from centuries past, ballads and such, never considered the need for repetitions...the story was the goal.

The Curse of Carrie
By Noel Downs copyright


She sat near the hearth, staring into the flames,
She then cast her wish, and whispered his name.
I’ve asked all gods of love, and they’ve finally heard,
It’s with this hope, I speak these ancient words.

Though I know you not, I heard your name in a dream,
In this very glade, by this very stream.
I pray you keep safe, and find joy in your life,
I pray you come find me, and make me your wife.

Across the far miles, Way out at sea,
Standing on watch, He shook violently.
Her vision appeared, and he heard his name called,
When his soul returned, it was lonely and cold.

He soon left his ship, and his love of the sea,
To wander the lands, his mind no longer free.
His one purpose in life, to search the earth,
To hunt down the woman, who’d made him so cursed.

{One verse/bridge instrumental}

Neath a hill on a road, where it crossed a stream,
Collecting water, the girl who haunted his dreams
I have not slept a night, for these three years past,
Since the night that you cursed me, I’ve found you at last.

He approached her with menace, her life he did demand,
At the tears on her cheek, the knife slipped from his hand,
He embraced her lithe form, as she fell into his arms,
The turbulent seas of his mind, were finally calmed.

As I wandered these lands, I could not take time to rest,
I feared my dreams, I believed you’d called me in jest,
But your soft spoken words, eased all pains of the past,
My prayers are answered, you’ve found me at last,

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I do this in alot of my song writing; putting a end of verse 'refrain' instead of verse. I don't think a 'chorus' is appropriate for every song. Story songs are great for a 'refrain'.

What I really like to do with the verses is set up the way you interpret the 'refrain' in a different way. Hooks & refrains are often metaphors, therefore there are many different way to see the meaning of the words, even within the same storyline.

I've also experimented with putting repeating lines in different places. for example, I had a song where each verse was eight lines. Line one of each verse was the same, line 4 of each verse was the same and line 8 of each verse was the same. I liked the turn out. It's fun to play with structure.



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Stan…yeah, so simply done, yet so profound.

Thanks for posting that Mark…I see what you mean, transports you to another place and time. Noel, you do have a way with a story.

“What I really like to do with the verses is set up the way you interpret the 'refrain' in a different way.”……. I love when I see that! Would like to try that sometime too….takes a song to another level. I appreciate hearing how you vary the structure, Kevin. It can really help to craft a good piece of writing...


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Thanks Kristi... You should have been here while Dawg (aka Corky Bernard) was alive... If I was only half as good I'd be a great writer.... www.soundclick.com/gallupndawg though Don't know if Bobbie still has any Dawg songs up still...

Cheers

Last edited by Noel Downs; 08/05/08 10:49 PM.



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Kristy...

Hi.... Tink ( Cindy Miller ) who occasionaly writes here now...
used to write here a lot. She wrote many styles of lyrics....
but one of her styles she did so very well was the

verse
verse
bridge
verse

I like putting melodies to that style...song...I'm not quite sure why...but am attracted to that style...

Here's one of Tink's....(Cindy's)... How I wish the search engine would go back farther ....I would suggest studying
some of Cindy's work on especially the V, V, B, V....

Will be back here and link you to A collaborated Tink Song...
called IF...Kristy....(I'll need to pull up the lyrics and add them later...but will give you an idea of that style song...
in any case..)

Here's a link to the song IF .....gonna grab the lyrics and
put them here in a min....
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=2077177

If
Lyrics: Cindy Miller
Music : Kaley Willow
c2003


If I allowed myself to cry
Would you think I'm being weak
If I asked for your shoulder
Would you turn the other cheek
If I told you I can't find myself
Without you for a guide
Would you abandon me
If I broke down and cried

If I asked for understanding
Would you still see me the same
If I told you how I'm hurting
Would you help to ease the pain
If I shared my shadowed past
By revealing hidden scars
Would you accept me
If I let you in my heart

If I could just stop doubting
And accept that you're for real
I'd have the love I'd once given up
And allow myself to feel

If I told you fear consumes me
Would you mock my every need
If I wake from a nightmare
Would you hold me tenderly
If I asked your forgiveness
Would my words be enough
Or would it be too late
If I embraced your love

Would it be too late
If I embraced your love






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Noel...I didn’t see Corky Bernard’s (Dawg) name on any of the lyrics on that link. (Bobbie has some interesting lyrics though! ) smile The “Broke Down Buick Blues” has repeating lines in the verses AND a chorus. I don’t know how you’d decide to do both….I’d be afraid of competing ideas/hooks, but people seem to pull it off…

Thanks Kaley…so the entire lyric is an if/then kind of structure…with the beginning words repeated ~ makes it a very reflective song….I like the melody you came up with. I searched Cindy’s name and have yet to find the vvbv songs (there were others w/choruses). I don’t think we can go further back than a year...



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it's OK to use different song structures
you just need to have great reasons when you do

here's an example of a song that is

V C V C V
it wouldn't have made any sense to sing out the chorus again


Chain of Love
artist: CLay Walker
written by Jonnie Barnett and Rory Lee

He was driving home one evening,
In his beat up Pontiac
When an old lady flagged him down,
Her Mercedes had a flat
He could see that she was frightened,
Standing out there in the snow
'Til he said I'm here to help you ma'am,
By the way my name is Joe

She said I'm from St. Louis,
And I'm only passing through
I must have seen a hundred cars go by,
This is awful nice of you
When he changed the tire,
And closed her trunk
And was about to drive away,
She said how much do I owe you
Here's what he had to say

You don't owe me a thing, I've been there too
Someone once helped me out,
Just the way I'm helping you
If you really want to pay me back,
Here's what you do
Don't let the chain of love end with you

Well a few miles down the road,
The lady saw a small cafe
She went in to grab a bite to eat,
And then be on her way
But she couldn't help but notice,
How the waitress smiled so sweet
And how she must've been eight months along,
And dead on her feet

And though she didn't know her story,
And she probably never will
When the waitress went to get her change,
From a hundred dollar bill
The lady slipped right out the door,
And on a napkin left a note
There were tears in the waitress's eyes,
When she read what she wrote

You don't owe me a thing,
I've been there too
Someone once helped me out,
Just the way I'm helping you
If you really want to pay me back,
Here's what you do
Don't let the chain of love end with you

That night when she got home from work,
The waitress climbed into bed
She was thinkin' about the money,
And what the lady's note had said
As her husband lay there sleeping,
She whispered soft and low
Everything's gonna be alright,
I love you, Joe

the song even got it's own website
http://www.thechainoflove.com



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Here's a different structure.....Kristy...

Tell me if you think it works..?...then listen


Because We Are

I try to be so young
she tries to learn from me
my song is mostly sung
she cli.....ngs to my his...tor y
She reads every line etched on my face
I feed off her silkiness
She says I haven't aged
I've found the milk of kindness

My back up lights are growing dim
Into my faded dreams she swims
Carries me onto the shore
and covers me.....with words...that...I adore

Though I try to tell her
That her time is now...
I will have to suffer
But she should exit ...with a bow
Then her eyes become.......as....distant ....as
the further est ...most star.....
Says life is of this in..stance
We ..are ...because....we....are......

Two lines of instrumental... those high notes.

Says life is of this instance
We are because we are.........in Love
©Blum, Willow

http://www.songramp.com/mod/mps/viewtrack.php?trackid=36827



I loved what the lyric was saying....but I remember being
worried that I wouldn't be able to please Ritt with the melody......

Tis ok to say if you don't like too......

best....
Kaley


Last edited by Kaley Willow; 08/07/08 06:33 PM.
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Ande….two verses for every one chorus right? Then the final verse…I can see why this was structured in that way with the idea of the story and all…and reading the story that inspired this was interesting…

Kaley…. Okay, gal….I read the lyric a couple times first before I listened. I do think it works, but..I admit, I didn’t understand some parts (suffering)…but I understand the gist of it: it’s a love song. And it's very personal. When I listened, I think the music adds to the bittersweet feelings beneath the words. Again, a very personal feel to it. Very pretty, yet somber as well. The lyric sort of lays it all out and then just quietly ends with reflection...which is complimented by your music...fair to say the structure depends on your goal?...thanks for sharing that! smile



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evenin' Kristy !!....I thought Ritt was beautifully poetic....in
a song about love where one is much older than the other...
The singer will suffer...(in her leaving)..but He's giving
her an ...out ..because he's looking ahead and thinking it's
best for her. She turns around and says...no way....
We are because we are;....that she's in it for the long haul;...
that's what I got out of it........Never did ask Ritt though grin

but ...the structure itself..lyrical structure was different...yet.....it works!!.. and I might say looking at it
from a lyrical standpoint (structure wise)...Yikes!!!.. just not typical....of a v c v c or v v bv .....or v c v c b c........
I'm not exactly sure what category the structure would fall in.
but had a feeling you might like to see it because it was different....

very best to you this evenin...gal...
Kaley.... smile

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Originally Posted by Ande Rasmussen
it's OK to use different song structures
you just need to have great reasons when you do

here's an example of a song that is

V C V C V
it wouldn't have made any sense to sing out the chorus again


Chain of Love
artist: CLay Walker
written by Jonnie Barnett and Rory Lee

He was driving home one evening,
In his beat up Pontiac
When an old lady flagged him down,
Her Mercedes had a flat
He could see that she was frightened,
Standing out there in the snow
'Til he said I'm here to help you ma'am,
By the way my name is Joe

She said I'm from St. Louis,
And I'm only passing through
I must have seen a hundred cars go by,
This is awful nice of you
When he changed the tire,
And closed her trunk
And was about to drive away,
She said how much do I owe you
Here's what he had to say

You don't owe me a thing, I've been there too
Someone once helped me out,
Just the way I'm helping you
If you really want to pay me back,
Here's what you do
Don't let the chain of love end with you

Well a few miles down the road,
The lady saw a small cafe
She went in to grab a bite to eat,
And then be on her way
But she couldn't help but notice,
How the waitress smiled so sweet
And how she must've been eight months along,
And dead on her feet

And though she didn't know her story,
And she probably never will
When the waitress went to get her change,
From a hundred dollar bill
The lady slipped right out the door,
And on a napkin left a note
There were tears in the waitress's eyes,
When she read what she wrote

You don't owe me a thing,
I've been there too
Someone once helped me out,
Just the way I'm helping you
If you really want to pay me back,
Here's what you do
Don't let the chain of love end with you

That night when she got home from work,
The waitress climbed into bed
She was thinkin' about the money,
And what the lady's note had said
As her husband lay there sleeping,
She whispered soft and low
Everything's gonna be alright,
I love you, Joe

the song even got it's own website
http://www.thechainoflove.com

\

Now, to me that is country, true country, tells a story and plays on your emotions. Too few being heard today IMHO


The more you taste the bitterness of defeat, the sweeter final victory will be

May the flowers of love forever bloom in your garden of life

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and the light just went on...DING grin ...more importantly...where is your song you're working on Gal?....is it up on the board somewhere....that folks could offer up?

very best...
Kaley.... smile

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There's a lot of talk about song structure here and sellability of a song. I'm going to offer a riddle here (Tom Shea you can't answer this because you already know the answer). If someone
were to post a song in the lyrics forum for a critique that had
only a verse, a chorus, a place for a lead instrument and then a slightly different chorus, (or at least that's the way I interpret the structure) what would the results be? This is definately stretching the acceptable "rules" to the limit. This was an actual hit song by a well known artist. Can anyone tell me what song this was? Put on your thinking caps.

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Ok, it's a tough one so I'll give you a hint. The original song was in the form verse chorus verse chorus. It was written in 1945. The singer I'm referring to above decided to drop one of the verses and recorded it in 1975. It's in the country genre. The song had been recorded by at least 3 different people before it was recorded in the modified form in 75.


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I so loved that song and haven't heard it in a while I like the structure. It is so often that we stick to what we know because we are comfortable. I applaud you for trying something different.


Fifty years from now, when you're looking back at your life, don't you want to be able to say you had the guts to get in the car?
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Kaley……Oh okay, the suffering is him, if she left…I was thinking in his old age…..I see that now in your explanation…and yes, I did enjoy seeing this structure. If you separate it differently, maybe you could call it a v v b v v song? I don’t know…just going by the rhyme scheme! It’s fun to kind of pick these apart to see how they work, ya know? Oh…and the lyric I’m working on? ...I think I’d like to enter it on the mentor critique next time around. If I don’t do the mentor/critique, I’ll toss it up on the lyric board so yes, I can get some much needed feedback! Thanks for asking! smile

Bill….I wish I had a guess for ya! But I’m terrible with naming things….give us another hint….!

April…it is fun to experiment…in my case, I was stuck writing anyway, so why not, right?

Kristi


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Ok Kristi, here's another hint for you. The first name of the artist that had a hit with the song he had changed the song structure on is Willie. The first letter in the song title
is B. You should be able to guess it now. I won't keep torturing you. lol! The point I'm trying to make here is, nothing is
etched in stone when it comes to song structure. A lot of people have experimented before and were successful veering away from established structure. I personally think that even if you sing the song backwards, if the song sounds good to the listener, then who cares what structure its in. The key word there though is if it sounds good to the listener. I believe the structure sometimes takes away some of our creativity because we have to make something fit into a mold.



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Well, according to your clues…here’s my guess…

Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain
Written by Fred Rose, 1945

In the twilight glow I see her
Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain.
As we kissed good-bye and parted,
I knew we'd never meet again.

Love is like a dying ember.
Where only memories remain.
Through the ages I'll remember-
Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain.

Now my hair has turned to silver.
All my life I've loved in vain.
I can see her star in heaven.
Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain.

Someday when we meet up yonder,
We'll stroll hand in hand again.
In a land that knows no parting-
Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain.

Willie Nelson took out that 3rd verse and inserted an instrumental there…am I right? I notice it has that repeating last line in the verses there. Yeah, I agree…we have to be careful not to let structure get in the way of creativity!


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Absolutely right Kristi. Here's the verse that Willie Nelson
took out.
Now my hair has turned to silver
all my life I've loved in vain
I can see her star in Heaven
blue eyes crying in the rain..

Good luck on your song writing. Be creative and go forward.



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BLUE EYES CRYING IN THE RAIN recorded by:
ELTON BRITT,
THE SONS OF THE PIONEERS,
SLIM WHITMAN,
FERLIN HUSKY,
WILLIE NELSON, and maybe others I am unaware of.

Some recorded all the verses some only recorded two verses.

I believe the actual date was 1943 that Fred Rose wrote it or copyrighted it.

The middle verse:
NOW MY HAIR HAS TURNED TO
SILVER,
ALL MY LIFE I'VE LOVED IN
VAIN,
I CAN SEE HER STAR IN HEAVEN,
BLUE EYES CRYING IN THE RAIN,
was not recorded by some.

I first heard it by Slim Whitman of which I think was recorded in 1953.


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Hi Ray, among those you mentioned, I believe Hank Williams,
Red Foley, and Hank Locklin also recorded that song. Thanks for
the input. We can only hope to write a song like that that will
be recorded by many people through the years.


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Hey Kristi and everyone...

This has been quite the interesting thread... I'm sorry I missed it's inception, but I'm glad I finaly got here to take a look. I too find myself in a rut sometimes... just writing vvcbvc or some variant... I also like to break out of the mold and try something different... I still can't go solely on the AAA format, but I have gotten to the point of where I do some AABA's. So in time maybe I'll get myself acustomed to trying new things... Here is a couple of examples of my work that have stepped into different structures. Both of these were inspired by Dylan and his use of story telling in verses and adding the hook in ( I added it in the end on both songs)

Shameful desires

1st Verse
Eloquence in each step she takes
Like a doe on a pillow of clouds
The essence of beauty in her right hand
While lies spill out of her mouth
Illusions of splendor and grace
Give way underneath the shroud
What you aren’t hearing her say
Is said in her actions out loud
Caught in a web of deception
Like a moth attracted by fire
Soon you’ll be cremated by
Your shameful desires


2nd
A golden goose for your repast
With a silver spoon as a utensil
While millions die of starvation
You write them all off with a pencil
You’ve cars and homes by the score
Yet you’ve never given one cent no!
Though one day you’ll have to account
And your spirit it may be sent low
A heart overflowing with greed
Quenched only by flames and the fire
Soon you’ll be cremated by
Your shameful desires

Bridge
Woe to those whose hopes and joy
Lie in things of waste and want
All the palaces of today
Become the mansions ghosts will haunt

3rd
There’s a still small voice crying out
Proclaiming thoughts of redemption
Desiring to give you a new heart and soul
And absolution from your pretension
Won’t ya listen closely and heed the call
Your wounds could use some attention
You won’t be saved by your IRA
There’s not enough left in your pension
Give over all you think is yours
Lest it all be burned in the fire
Don’t be chained down by
Your shameful desires

Copyright August 9, 2008 Derek Hines All Rights Reserved

Wherever this road may lead

1st Verse
Surrounded by poisonous snakes
With some kinda cum laude degrees
Shimmering suits outside of the shade
Their eyes alighting with greed
Seeking to devour my heart and my soul
Nothing it seems will appease
As my creations bubble and boil
They’re coated with self righteous greed
Though my works are tarnished by fame
I’ll still reap from planting the seed
Just going along with the game
Wherever this road may lead

2nd Verse
Every man’s a prisoner
With some kinda ball and a chain
Most of the time he’s covered in dirt
Cept when he’s drowin’ in the rain
Tied down to standards and status
Not free to seek his own will
Wanting his blood and sweat for gratis
Enslaving him to thoughts of overkill
He’ll leap through circles of flames
With no chance he’ll ever be freed
Just going along with game
Wherever this road may lead

Bridge
A fighter gets felled like the mightiest oak then the media sets him ablaze
The cowboys get slaughtered and the ones who survive give up on their rodeo ways

3rd
Amazed how the mighty have fallen
Each one’s strength now giving way
The voice of the reaper is callin’
Meals over surrender your cup and tray
As you slip from the limelight to twilight
Your existence is clouded with doubt
As a famous bluesman once told you
Nobody loves you when you’re down and out
You know you’ve got no one to blame
Lay down your arms and succeed
Just go right along with the game
Wherever this road may lead

Copyright March 28, 2008 Derek Hines All Rights Reserved

Both songs are very similar in structure and I hope to expand on this structure and try new things, though as others have said it certainly isn't the commercial approach, but I would rather diversify now than get stuck in the same boring mold..
Derek




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Bill,
I can find no place where either Red Foley or Hank Locklin recorded Blue Eyes Crying in The Rain. And I have heard most of their music over the years. Hank Williams did not release the song in his lifetime. I have heard Lp's of him and just his guitar where he recorded songs that were put together and released after he died.

I seem to remember that the song may have been among the songs that were saved out of the trash by someone and them re-claimed by the family just recently. They were old recordings on acetate records that were thrown out and weren't considered worth anything. Those recordings may be avaliable now on CD.

Fred Rose was part of the Acuff Rose Publishing House and was a mentor to Hank.


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Ray, try this google page. This is where I got some of my information. This is the page that said Hank Williams recorded it.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rls=HPIC,HPIC:2006-20,HPIC:en&q=blue+eyes+crying+in+the+rain%2blyrics

Of course I'm just going on someone else's information there. I don't know this for a fact first hand. I was just mainly making a point about song structure.


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Ray, check out the link below. Sure sounds like Hank to me.
The more I research this song, the more people I find that have
recorded it. It's definately a "standard".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP_lxNcICqE


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Here is a link to Red Foley singing Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain on a Grand Old Opry broadcast from January 8, 1948.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsJDGx_YOnY

He probably never recorded it for a record, but like Hank Williams, they were captured on live recordings from radio broadcasts.

Last edited by Jack Swain; 08/10/08 09:10 PM.
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Here is Hank Locklin, and it is definitely a studio recording of the song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nytOLfOWK5k

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