JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum So Where Does Your Song Rank On Ourstage?

#14 in comedy. #71 in spoken word. Just a note on spoken word. It appears that the voter base in that category is pretty much favoring poetry rather than spoken word songs. I know the winner in July was a spoken word song - "Mexico City" by Peter Moore(who got my vote too). And I had the "Meat Packer's Song"(a spoken word novelty song) make the quarterfinals in that genre. It's now predominately serious message-oriented poetry. I even had a song that's been in Spoken Word on Broadjam for years(was even in their top 10 in Spoken Word)transferred by OurStage to another genre when I entered it in Spoken Word a month or so ago.
In Alt. Hip Hop "Saturday Night Confessions" started in the 600s, jumped up to the 300s last week, but is back to the 600s today.

Was at #11 today in Folk. I just checked and moved to #13. Maybe I should ignore it for a while, but that is kind of superstitious. I just don't want to get in the habit of checking multiple times a day.

Ben, that's a great rank for Folk. Look forward to checking out that song tonight.

Thanks Mark. I'm surprised because it's the kind of song that you have to listen to beyond 15 sec. to get.

Well, my position didn't hold at all. I've slipped into the 220's

Getting a little frustrated with all the straight country in this category. Do folks even read the descriptions at all?

I don't understand how it is possible for one of my songs to gradually climb to 65 and then drop to 153 in a matter of hours, especially more than half way through the month. There must be a very small number of people voting for that kind of swing to be statistically possible??????

Hi Colin I have noticed the same thing happening myself. I do not know how any voting system can be accurate when some people may only vote on a few battles. Does this partial voting count for anything? It is impossible to complete a whole set of votes on most chanels so how can all these different partial opinions reflect a fair outcome.

Hey Mark, I just listened to "Hey Bulldog". Good version. I like the MaCcartneyish bass. Good luck with it. Ben

still having the same problem and no reply from them
i can't create a page with my legal artist name cos there's a blank profile of a random previous user there. it makes no sense for me to create a profile with not my legal (already released name) and also legal full name, but i don't seem to get feedback from them to fix this.

I just entered "Easy On The Eyes", http://www.ourstage.com/music/channel/114-male-singer/DIGWBCZLSNHE-easy-on-the-eyes in Male/Singer/Songwriter on Friday and it has jumped to 332 out of 545 since then. I don't know if it will have enough time to climb to the top twenty. If you check out the photo, you'll see that this is more of a "novelty presentation". However I believe that the song itself is "Singer/Songwriter. I think the political debaters on this board will get a chuckle out of it.

Well my cover of "Hot Legs" has dropped from 1st to 20th in the last 24 hours it rose slowly then held position 1 or 2 for a few days before crashing. I hope I qualify again for the Q finals.
Number 14 is the best final standing I have achieved.

Well less than 12 hours later my song has crashed down to a position in the mid sixties. I find that judging and rapid movement hard to believe being so late on in the month.

Most of the judging happens as the month nears an end. People always put things off as a group and this is like everything else.

Yes but why is that last 12 hour judging so different from the pattern that has been going on all month? That is what I find hard to understand. There have been no last minute entries so I am up against the same songs as I have been all month. So why have folks opinions suddenly changed?
I still maintain that there are problems with the engine that sorts out the voting into positions. It would be interesting to find out how many battles each song has been involved in. Without this data it is hard to justify voting patterns which change so dramatically.

I am with Jim.....the patterns I have seen do not make sense if there is a large number of battles. If there is a small number, then all bets are off.

From a logical point of view I cannot comprehend how accurate judging can be theoretically achieved when they are only processing many partial opinions. If everybody voted on a full set of battles then OK. When you get many partial sets this in no way can reflect TRUE opinion.

The categories have far too many entries. Perhaps if they were split into manageable groups or sub divisions then a fairer judging system would exist as more people would do a complete round of judging.

Wow, I was in the 40's a few days ago in Instrumental, now 205. I really don't know what to say to friends who say they stayed on for two hours waiting to vote for me, and I never came up, so they gave up.

I guess we just have to let it do what it do.

From number 1 I dropped down to 65 then back up to number 10 all in the space of 24 hours. OK at the beginning of the month when songs are placed randomly and there is a lot of movement sorting out placements but you do not expect this yoyo voting at this time of the month when songs are in a more stable placement. Something is very wrong. Perhaps it might have something to do with the 4 song battle format.

Until Ourstage starts revealing the statistics on how many times the songs get voted on I have absolutely no faith in the standings.
I know Brian is against that but transparency is the only way to assure that all song are getting voted on.
The other stat that I think would be telling would be the number of votes by other artists vs the number of votes by fans.

Another thing I have noticed. What do you say about a song that stays at the same relative position for two weeks? It sits at #50 out of 65 songs. The total goes to 66 the song goes to 51, the total goes to 67 the song goes to 52. Seems strange to me. That indicates no movement for two weeks. I find that strange.

Another problem I have is you cannot edit a song. If you have a newer version you cannot upgrade it.

I'm #6 in comedy, #9 in bluegrass and #18 in traditional country today, tomorrow, who knows.

I don't see anything strange in the voting patterns if one accepts the reality that there is organized voting. Orlando had friends that were voting - hoping to help him - and that's what OurStage wants to encourage. When there's a wave of organized voting, you should expect to see shifts in standings. Unfortunately, because voters may not have the opportunity to help their artist by voting for that artist, they may choose to vote against artists who they feel may be competitive. I doubt that happens to artists near the bottom. If anything, negative voting helps them because I would think the logical negative voters would vote for songs at the bottom of the competition over the songs that they think or know(because of the song's current standing)would compete well against their favored artist.
Then there are song submissions like this, that are just for fun: http://www.ourstage.com/music/channel/114-male-singer/DIGWBCZLSNHE-easy-on-the-eyes
It'll be good for a laugh for two weeks. I'm surprised that it has jumped halfway up the competition since Friday. I'm glad to see the voters in Male Singer/Songwriter do have a sense of humor. Most of the songs there are deep and serious.

Taking the concept of organized voting a step further, the organizer could get his friends to vote against the best songs except for his own in order to give his own song a leg up.

An unbiased system that cannot be manipulated is probably a pipe dream.

It's really unrealistic to think that there is any organized voting before the final rounds. There are simply too many songs in any category. It is extremely hard to get the song you want... believe me, I've tried, just to see how hard it was. I did over 300 rounds and didn't get the song I was looking for even once. Do the math for that. 300 rounds with at least 30 seconds of required listening per round, assuming you're getting unique songs, which you probably will. Not even dedicated fans are going to sit around and do that.

While I agree that organized voting has more impact from the quarterfinals onward, I disagree that it doesn't have an impact before then. I've done the math(See "Negative Voting On OurStage")and had to change my initial opinion which was the same as Andrew's. If more than one artist's fans target a few songs that they feel are more competitive, it is realistic to conclude that this would have an impact. The smaller the number of competitors the larger the impact. The problem here also may be the understanding of what is "organized voting"(OV). When I use the term, I mean any formal and informal consensus of friends, fans, or association group to help their artist win. OV is a positive thing for OurStage and the competitions when it is used by fans to promote an artist's song by voting for that song. It is a negative thing when it is used by fans to vote down a competitor in order to promote their artist. But in these days when so many artists have "street teams" it would be unrealistic the think that it doesn't occur - although the genre would factor in on how pervasive such a thing may be.

Yep I agree there is more than one way to skin a cat and it looks as if folk have found various ways on Ourstage. Or the engine responsible for collating the votes is flawed. Either way ther is some funny things happening with the positions.

I kept my songs in the competition for October. My entry in Male Singer-Songwriter, which finished at #5 in September, is now 26th. I don't think it'll make it to the quarter-finals by Friday, but you never know.

My other entry in Americana/Alt-Country didn't even place the top 100 last month, but this month it's at #14. Both songs were entered at the same time.

I think organized voting would have more impact during the last few weeks when the top 20 artists are begging their fan clubs to vote. It seemed to have an impact when I was in the semi-finals.

I wouldn't give too much credit to "street teams" gaming the vote.

Well after gradually crawling its way back to number eleven SUDDENLY WITHIN THE LAST HOUR it all of a sudden crashed to 38.
Now that goes against any of the people who say that you have to wait hours for songs to come around. How many battles would it take at this late stage in the month taking into consideration the previous battles to make it drop nearly thirty places. Go figure.

Overnight it has dropped a further thirty places. SHEESH.

I have no street team to help me and don't want one. I'd like for the song to place or win on its own merits, not be voted there because you have a lot of friends that like you and not necessarily your song. I wouldn't sell out my principles for $100.00 or even $5000.00.

The songs are judged by their merits on OurStage. I can tell you that between my friends and I, none of whom really do any sort of organized voting or campaigning during the pre-final rounds, have collectively made it into the quarters at least several dozen times. We don't even bother to announce to fans that we're entering.

Huh-Do they just continue to reenter you song each month? I saw this thread and checked my husband's ourstage, and it appears his song "Country Fried Pedigree" is 198/502 on the country stage. Whodathunkit? He last logged on before our daughter was born in June!

Hanging in there at #3 in Comedy with "Dead Sexy". Hope I get lucky...after all, Halloween is just around the corner.

Ourtage is not all its cracked up to be.

I'm sharing this e mail that I sent to JPF and the supposed liason for JPF at ourstage regarding the Jophn Lennon Songwriting Contest Channel. I've edited some of the content for gentler eyes, I am hoppin po'd.

I entered the JLSC competiton and was rewarded for speaking up about songs that were not in compliance to the JLSW rules, time length and for God sake a COVER SONG, by being dropped to 49th out of 50 when I was in the top 10 and even #1 for a time being. I did everything right, flagged the cover, e mailed Ourstage regarding what rules exactly we were supposed to follow, then e mailed the JLSC as to the rules regarding the Ourstage competiton. I e mailed a couple of the participants to ask what class they were entered in in the actual JLSC contest, and got no response. I clearly stated on my description what class I was entered in and that it was through Sonic Bids...

And again, SCREWED OVER. For doing the right things and asking questions. These were legitimate concerns for everyone who is entered, payed their 30 bucks to the JLSC, and in all fairness followed the rules for the JLSC and the ourstage competition. I'm basically taking one for the team.

A good friend of mine in the music business once said contests are bull***t.

I believe him now, no matter who's name is attached to it, its all a popularity contest with these online things. No matter how fair they say they are. I'm not saying I have the best song on the channel, but there are a lot that are far from deserving as well written songs occupying many of the top 20 spots. And "Savin All My Love For You" is a cover from 1979...what is it even doing on there in the first place????? Either no one cared to notice or they were afraid to speak up because of what it obviously would do to their ratings. I'm living proof.

I'm letting you know this because you tout this as a great site. I'm glad for those that deserve the high ratings, but as to the crap going on in the JLSC channel, its a bunch of hoo hah. No regulation at all.

this is also going to the Ourstage JPF person you have listed. I hope someone can see through the BS.

JPF is a great organization, I'm proud to be a member, and I would hate to see your reputation tarnished by recommending Ourstage in its present state. At least the JLSC channel.

Respectfully,
Cathy Stewart

Well my song has dropped to 120. It took 19 days to rise to number one then only a couple days to crash down and appears to be continually still dropping. I fail to see how fair judging can make this happen. Are the people who decide to vote now all of a sudden different in taste from those who voted all those 19 days before before and why all of a sudden can places change so fast. Is it just a coincidence that when I tried to enetr the site I got a notice saying it was down temporarily for maintenence. How does that effect places if people cannot vote?

The problems highlighted months ago still are not fixed but we see all this new gimmicky stuff which is total nonesense appearing.

Jim,

If it was all dishonest, then are you suggesting it was dishonest and that is why you made the top 20 several times? I mean it can't be both ways. Either it was fair that you once made the top 20 or it wasn't. And if was a fair system then, then it's a fair system now.

The difference is that people wait until the end of the month to vote for the most part. That's when artists rally their fan bases. I agree that in the finals, people will automatically vote for the artist they are fans of over all others. That's not going to change. I personally wish they'd hide how the songs are doing in the semi and finals. But I don't run the company so I can't always get what I want. = )

Voters are fickle. Every time we do the JPF awards, I see totally bizarre voting. Songs I think are not as good sometimes just do better with judges. I watch it happen in real time and I know the system isn't rigged. People often vote in mysterious ways. It's just like the US Elections.

Brian

I think what ticks me off the most is all of the last minute entries getting lots of opportunities to be judged and the ones that have been there getting almost none.

My daughter logged on to vote, and told me that in all of the "Battles" she did, my song came up only twice while other songs, ahead of and behind me, came up repeatedly, and the new ones came up the most.

I logged in and got to vote, finally, after 4 days of being told there were no more entries to judge in the final week and that I could no longer vote in the category (and I voted in other categories). The entries had gone from 48 to 75 in no time flat, and I voted at least 60 battles, pick four and head to head, my song came up once, while others, including the COVER came up 4+ times. Random,? my aunt fanny its random! And I still say that because I decided to speak up about things I was put in the corner by who or whatever the powers are.

So, I gotta scratch my head along with Big Jim here.....quoting my favorite show CSI:Miami- "There's something hinky here..."

Cathy

Hi Brian I am not saying it is corrupt or dishonest just FLAWED.
There are patterns there that defy logic. Just because we are in bed with Ourstage does not mean we have to defend them ALL the time. It could be that there are problems and if we pretend they do not exist then how can they be fixed.
I know all about bizarre judging and can accept that it happens. That said there basic fairplay rules that get broken with the Ourstage system to make it an uneven playing field.

1. All entries should be in before competition starts and placed randomly.... no late entries allowed. Positions throughout the month should not be given.
2. Each song should have equal amounts of battles and compete against ALL the other songs. This would mean smaller categories so that voters would have to have voted on complete sets of battles rather than just a random few before their votes count.
3. You should not be allowed to keep entering the same songs month after month.

As I said before how can many partial votes work?
If people do not get to judge certain songs ever but judge other songs multiple times then you have an unbalanced opinion.

This month my song finished in 112 place. Now I know that out of the songs that were placed higher there are more than a few that are in the wrong positions.

I'm sharing this as a public service....Jim, I think the scenario will look quite familiar....

....my gripe is with Ourstage for not regulating their channel entry process and making sure entrants are following not only the rules of the channel you enter, but any criteria set forth by a partner organization for eligibilty to enter the channel in their sponsored competitons.
EXAMPLE:

JPF decides to run a promo channel on ourstage, say, an Acoustic Challenge channel, where the song must be an original composition, played strictly on acoustic instruments, under 5 minutes in length, and participants must be members of the JPF. The first place prize is a featured spot on the JPF Euro Tour with sponsors providing travel expenses. Pretty good incentive to enter.

Fred Flintstone is a JPF member, enters his song on the channel, its well written, and performed with acoustic guitar, vocals and harmonica. The song is 4:58.

He enters at the beginning of the month, and yo yo's up and down the charts at first and lands solidly and consistantly in the top 20 out of 43 entries.

Mid month, Jed Clampett enters his song with a screaming stratocaster lead on it, never heard of JPF, but its 3:20.

No one flags it. and it bumps Fred out of the top 20. Fair?

Fred manages to get back into the top 20.....and remains there for 2 weeks solid.

The day before the quarter finals start, 20 people jump on the band wagon for the channel, like a swarm, because they know that new songs entered get put up more frequently than the ones that have been on the channel for a while. Several of the songs are over 5 minutes, 8 of them are not JPF members, and 3 have electric instruments on them, one of the songs is one word repeated over and over.

In the flurry of judging, poor fred, who has followed all of the rules, stuck out the entire month, Stayed relatively solid in the top 20, just before midnight, is 21st, and out of contention for the quarter finals.

7 of the top 20 are the last minute entries, and somehow, Jed squeaks in at #20.

Out of the top 20, 6 of them are not JPF members, and 1 song is 6:29.

Fair?
You decide....

I did e mail Daniel, and suggested that 72 hours prior to the quarter finals, entries to the channels close so that the last minute flurry of new entries don't skew the voting, kind of a settle down period before the quarters.

I hope you understand it a little better now, my problem is with the Ourstage regulation process for their channels. There is obviously not anyone watchin the store.

I e mailed the JLSC, this is a copy of what I sent, as of yet no response.

Ourstage competition and the JLSC‏
From: Cathy Stewart (carpentryone0one@hotmail.com)
Sent: Thu 10/23/08 11:06 PM
To: leon@jlsc.com


The JLSC is one of the premier songwriting contests available, and I feel honored to be a part of it as a participant.
However....
When I added my entry to the Ourstage competiton via my Sonicbids account, after going through all of the entries in the judging process, I found it dis-heartening that there are a few entries that do not fit the criteria for the actual JLSC competition.
The two main infractions:
Songs well over 5 minutes
And at least 1 cover (a song written by Masser and Goffin and recorded by Marilyn McCoo in 1978 and Whitney Houston in 1985).
I'm not sure about the rules you have regarding sampling.

I don't know how stringent you are about the 5 minute rule, but when some songs are stretching to and past the 6 minute mark...that is blatent disrespect for the rules.

I am curious as to how many of these entries are actually a part of the JLSC. Who regulates that on Ourstage? With so much at stake, and excellent competiton (some really great songs!) I thought that this "channel" would be well scrutinized. I've e mailed Ourstage about my concerns and questions, and have had no response as of yet.

I hope that you may be able to answer these questions for me. I think all of the participants would benefit from your answers. I would ask for permission to pass on your information if possible.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Cathy Stewart

I also e mailed Ourstage via their site....not daniel, at the time, but the contact they had listed at http://www.ourstage.com/contact/community , unfrotunately, it doesn't save your outgoing.

Re: payment
No, I paid my submission fee to the JLSC to enter the contest via sonicbids, then posted my song on the Ourstage JLSC channel per the rules for being on the channel which stated that to enter this channel you must be entered in the actual JLSC competiton. If some of these songs were actually JLSC paid entries, then they were not in compliance with the JLSC rules, which state clearly (This is copied directly from the JLSC site):

Each entry requires the following elements:
One song five (5) minutes or less (mp3, CD or cassette)
A lyric sheet -- no lyrics necessary for instrumental compositions
A payment -- $30.00 per song
A completed application



Read the Rules & Regulations carefully before entering.



AND to save you time of hitting the link, at least the first rule/regulation which states:



2008 Rules & Regulations

1. Each song submitted must be contestant's original work. Songs may not exceed five (5) minutes in length. Songs may have multiple co-writers, but please designate one name only on the application. Contestant may submit as many songs in as many categories as he/she wishes, but each entry requires a separate cassette, CD, or MP3 file, entry form, lyric sheet, and entrance fee. One check or money order for multiple entries/categories is permitted. (Entrance fee is non-refundable. JLSC is not responsible for late, lost, damaged, misdirected, postage due, stolen, or misappropriated entries. The JLSC is not responsible for faulty file uploads accompanying online entries.)




My question was were all of the entries in the channel (especially all those last minute entries (30+) AND those over 5 minutes in length) actual PAID JLSC entries as stated as a requirement for being on this channel? Those that were over 5 minutes would have been a waste of money for those that entered because they would not even have been considered.

Who, if anyone, checked the entries to make sure they were?

And, obviously, no one was checking because a BLATENT cover song (Saving All My Love For You) was entered in the channel and never removed even after flagged and commented on that it was a cover and NOT original work.

That is why I question the validity of the entries in the JLSC channel on Ourstage.

I hope that clarifies my concerns.


I really appreciate this dialog. I guess the shame is that as far as I know at this point, no one else has questioned the process.

I seem to be the only one who ever steps up and takes one for the team even if it means sacrificing something major. All I ask for is honesty in the competitions that I enter. For everyone involved.



Cathy

It would be OUR responsibility to make sure OUR rules were being followed Cathy. Why are you attacking Ourstage and not JLSC? They are the ones who took your money.. go back to JLSC and demand they resolve it.

Seriously.. JPF has nothing to do with this. JLSC does. Yet you're complaining via email and now our message board and even bring JPF into it via your example above and we have nothing to do with it at all. JLSC took your money. They must be responsible for what happens or they should refund your money. Complain to them. We do not endorse JLSC and we can't control what they do or how they oversee things they are attached to. If Ourstage had taken your money themselves, then at least you could ask them for a refund.. but they didn't. JLSC took your money. It's their job to fix it. Why don't you hold THEM accountable and complaint to THEM?

Brian

Jim,

Here's your points:

1. All entries should be in before competition starts and placed randomly.... no late entries allowed. Positions throughout the month should not be given.

Ourstage has a system they use. You know it very well (better than most). You still choose to participate. Then, when it doesn't give the results your like, you complain about the system that you knew all about in the first place? Your bad. If you don't like how they do it, don't participate.

Artists are proscrastinators. People could have entered the JPF awards last February. But when the deadline came on August 31st for older entries, I had 100's of emails upset that I didn't give them more time to enter. I am STILL getting emails from people months after that deadline saying they just got around to wanting to enter. If you have a site that depends on artist participation, you have to make it as easy as possible for someone to participate on their own terms. So letting folks enter any time they want is a must. This isn't a paid contest. I think when money is at stake, then you can justify tighter entry times. But when it's an ever evolving system that has very different judges coming in throughout the month, the more flexible the better. If they don't find reasons for people to visit the site throughout the month and get involved, they won't have enough traffic to keep the site going. Their choice then would be to charge artists or shut down. I think they are amazing for a free site. And if your goal is to find great music from any source and identify it, then that goal is very well served by letting people enter anything at anytime. It's not a closed "for pay" contest with entry fees and a prize package. If the best song out there comes in at the middle of the month, then it's the best song. Who cares when it was entered?

As for the tracking of where things rank. Checking on rankings (and bragging to fan bases that you're doing well) is an important part of keeping artists engaged in the process. If you don't keep them engaged, they don't even remember they entered in the first place. I know this first hand. We have people already who forgot they entered our awards just a few months ago via CD Baby and have just now noticed an email from us and want to know why we contacted them. We explain they entered our awards and many of them argue with me that they didn't. I show them the evidence that they had to not only answer an email, but log into their own account, click 2 more links and then fill out a form by clicking boxes next to what they wanted to enter. I also explain that we've sent them 6 emails about it since they entered all which were confirmed as delivered. THEN they often go.. oh.. sorry.. "I forgot." Artists are their own worst enemies. But when you depend on participation from them to exist, you have to do anything you can to make it easy for them to remain engaged. The ranking system does that. Most artists who care will check in throughout the month to see how they are doing. They will also tell their fans and other artists. That word of mouth is crucial. Without it, then Ourstage would have to become a pay site. And the last thing we need is another one of those out there.

I agree that during the finals, songs shouldn't be ranked. Instead they should show the rankings of the previous months finals to show how great those songs were (I think they do far too little to promote previous winners). By doing that, I think gaming would be nearly impossible beyond just voting FOR a particular song, which is ALWAYS going to happen in public voting no matter what. But some at Ourstage disagree with that. It's been made clear to me that they aren't willing to budge on that at this time. The way I see it, you win some and you lose some. We've just agreed to disagree at on that one.

2. Each song should have equal amounts of battles and compete against ALL the other songs. This would mean smaller categories so that voters would have to have voted on complete sets of battles rather than just a random few before their votes count.

You got your wish on that already. So you should be happy. The way that happens is that they have to play catch up with songs posted later which is why songs come up multiple times over others. But if you judge the ENTIRE category.. you'll find that every song gets judged roughly the same number of times. The program goes through algorhythms to balance the votes out. I've actually voted an entire category and each song came up the same number of times eventually. If the songs you WANTED to come up DID.. then you could manipulate the results far more easily. There are also features that check on system gaming and that can also affect what comes up and when. The site tests whether someone is consistent in their voting, or showing habits displayed when people cheat. This is a good thing.

3. You should not be allowed to keep entering the same songs month after month.

They are serving the artist community. Most have made it clear they want to be able to enter what they want. It's hard enough to get them to enter the right genres.. forcing them to enter something new every month would fail. We get complaints on our Lyric/MP3 Mentor Critique from some who want to enter the same thing over and over. And that program isn't even about trying to "win" by having the best entry.. so imagine if it was? At some point, they have to please people enough to get them to use the site. The do, as far as I am aware, remove all the songs that finish in the bottom 50%. That's a sort of hint to consider something else. But I bet most that come back still enter the same old songs. It's like artists who play the same songs at every show year after year. I know artists who have played the same single song 5 straight years during our roadtrip visits. Many folks simply don't have newer material or they don't fell it is a good as their "hit." It's pointless to fight them on it. You can't change human nature.

As I said before how can many partial votes work?
If people do not get to judge certain songs ever but judge other songs multiple times then you have an unbalanced opinion.

But when you have 1.2 million cumulative voters in a month and they vote millions and millions of times, 1 person's opinion is only a tiny part of the overall picture anyway. If you want your opinion to be counted across the board, then vote on 100% of the battles. Otherwise, there is NO fix for what you are describing. People will never hear all the songs, yet their votes for other songs will count. That's simply reality. The system simple looks at what needs to be judged and hands out assignments in real time doing that. The fairest thing is to be sure that all the songs end up with as close to the same number of matches as the others as possible. Because there may be thousands of people judging a category simultaneously, it just plugs it in as it needs.

Ourstage has been the most reponsive company we've dealt with in dealing with feedback that I've ever seen. JPF members are listened to and I have spent a LOT of time advising changes and many of them have been incorporated. Some have not. In the end, a company has to make decisions that are best for them, not for each individual complainer out there. No system will ever make EVERYONE happy. If you ran it Jim, people would be unhappy with your choices. Daniel and his team have bent over backwards to make people happy, but sometimes you just have to do what you have to do. There are also a lot of technology secrets involved that can't be discussed (including a lot of effort to detect and prevent vote cheating). Sometimes things are the way they are not because it will be popular, but because it makes other important things possible. And without those OTHER things, people would be far MORE unhappy.

So you know how they do things Jim. You've seen them react here and make changes suggested where they can. At some point you have to decide if it's worth your time or not. I think it's a great tool. I think there's FAR more good than bad going on with their system. I've seen people really benefit from using them. I've yet to see someone hurt by it. (And in the case of Cathy, I still say her complaint is with the people she PAID to enter (i.e. JLSC).. not Ourstage).

We'd both run any company very differently than the people who run it. We'd make different decisions and we'd change many things. Some changes would be better, some would be worse. But rest assured, ANY system we came up with would be trashed by SOMEONE. The fact that Ourstage responds to their users at all puts them light years ahead of most.

Brian

I went from #11 in Folk to #65 within a few days. Bummer. I don't know much about Quarter finals or Simi finals or even if I'm in there. I was frosted like Big Jim at first when this thing started, but take it with a grain of salt now. I didn't fork out any money, so it's all in fun. I was glad to have the #11 spot for awhile. Ben

I always find it interesting that people don't complain when the are ranked high.. only when they drop down. Like I haven't seen anyone demanding changes because their song was ranked too high. Does anyone fell their song isn't above at least 1 better song when they're up there? Where's the complaint then? It's a rhetorical question.

Is their system perfect? Nope. Neither are the people using it. Neither is ANYTHING else. If you're happy with them 51% of the time, that's more than our politicians. If you're happy 80-90% of the time, that's near miraculous. Until we start paying their bills, our opinions only matter so much. I think we already get way more attention than the norm from them.

Brian

This same song finished in the 200's for the last two months and I didn't complain. Of course no one is going to complain if their song finishes high. I have an idea. Enter your worst song. If it finishes in the top ten, then complain about it. Say the system is rigged and that people only want to hear bad music.

(And in the case of Cathy, I still say her complaint is with the people she PAID to enter (i.e. JLSC).. not Ourstage).

No Brian, my problem lies with Ourstage laying down rules then not adhering to them.

"Why are you attacking Ourstage and not JLSC? "
The requirements were Ourstage's,not JLSC's from what
I gather. I could give a rodent's fanny where I place as long as I know the playing field is level. Its actually quite easy for me to say "Oh well, maybe next time." There was great and very deserving talent in the channel, and then there was not. Just like everywhere else in the world of music or anything where opinion is used to rate and rank.
I showed dogs for years...there were better dogs than mine, worse than mine, fair judging and "political" judging at the wrong end of the leash. When I saw a nice dog, I complimented them, and didn't feel so bad about coming in second . If they were over size, I or another handler might have a stick called on them to check their height. ALL dogs were measured in the class if the handler of the dog in question so desired. Ive also judged dog shows and had to be accountable for what I put up. Ready to answer any and all questions regarding my decisions, sometimes having to remember the qualities and faults of 30 or 40 dogs.And you can ask anyone in the Pennsylvania Beagle Gundog Association, or the united Beagle Gundog Federation, I never played the buddy game or politics.

I only used the JPF as an example to make it more understandable and a little closer to home. I'm not "bringing" JPF into it...except for the fact that in the newsletter you make Ourstage sound like the best thing since sliced bread.
It might be sliced, but there is some mold on the crust...hopefully it will develop into penicillin to cure the things ailing the system.

You personally dont seem to like the John Lennon Songwriting Contest, or Sonicbids, or anything that requires a fee. I ain't crazy about fees, either, but sometimes, even when you go to hear a band ya got to pay a cover charge. Even if you know em, even if you sit in with them....and if I do get in for nothing, I make sure I tip the bartenders well....even though all I drink is diet coke.

I may enter some of Ourstages channels just for kicks. Its kinda cool that in a class of 400 you get below the halfway mark...I enjoy listening to the music out there. The different takes of ideas and genres. This JLSC thing was probably a cluster fudge for Ourstage, but if it was they need to step up to the mic and say "I did not have ...." oh wait...that was someone else.

Yes I can take all of this with a big fat grain of salt, but I hate to see injustice,too. And I can laugh about it.

Brian, I e mailed you and Daniel because I thought I could get some answers to my questions. I posted to the forum because I saw similar concerns to my own on here.

If I make a difference, great. If not, at least Im not a blind sheep. I'm the border collie.

Cathy

I'm #7 and #9 in bluegrass and comedy this morning.

I think Ourstage is Honest. I don't think they are doing anything to manipulate the standings.
If my song is not doing well it is because I have not given the listener something to like.
My song in Country, done by demo service, has swung from #51 to #319
That's a heck of a swing, LOL.

My song in traditional never seems to move. Stays right around 60 all the time. It did move as new songs were entered the same number of places added to the total then stopped doing that. As new songs were added it stayed between 60 and 66.
I think it jmped to around 26 or 28 last month but then dropped back.

There are some really awesome songs on there.

I am sure there is organized voting going on but I doubt it is Ourstage's fault.

As far as trying to figure out if all the songs are getting the same number of battles I am not the least bit interested in sitting through several thousand battles to prove it.
That's up to Ourstage to provide that transparency.

Until that happens I don't think I'll be entering very many more songs. Maybe if I get a really smokin' demo done I'll consider it.

I also wish they wolud allow us to remove our songs, or at least edit them.
If we can withdraw them from the competition why can't we delete them?

Bill

If you want to delete one of your songs from Ourstage, go to the edit menu and change the title of the song to REMOVE or DELETE. Then you email them through the CONTACT button and tell them to remove the song labled REMOVE or DELETE. They've been very good about doing that with my stuff. They'll usually have the song removed in less than 24 hours.

Eric

I don't believe that OurStage is doing anything to manipulate the standings.

I do wonder about the viability of the judging system. For instance, this month I entered my three songs. In the three categories, there were well over 1,000 songs entered. In order for me to hear all the songs, I would need to judge well over 500 battles. In actuality I judged 19 (my decision/fault). So I wonder about the behavior of others who judge - I would bet most of them are people who have songs entered.

I guess what I am saying is that I would bet there are relatively few battles compared to how many it would take for everyone to judge all the songs.

Consequently, with only a small number of battles, a positive or negative vote on any one song can cause a wide swing in the ranking. If there were many thousands of battles being judged, any one vote would have a minor impact and a large swing in a short period of time would be unlikely. Since I saw wild swings in my rankings, I can only conclude that there weren't many voters. A corollary would be that someone who gets his street team to cast votes would have a lot of influence if there were few other voters. And if the street teams were mostly young kids (highly likely), then the results would reflect that more youthful/current sounding songs would have the advantage.

As Brian stated, that may change towards the end of the month as more people get excited. It would be interesting to see some data on the number of votes cast.

There a lots of good songs on there, so I don't mean to imply otherwise. And I am not going to jump off a tall building if my songs don't do well.

Brian I agree with some of what you say but do not agree with hiding my head in the sand pretending that all is well and accusing us of bitching. Nothing is perfect as you say and by that premise all things can be bettered. As I said before we cannot fix something if we do not know it is broke. So feedback of this kind is essential. That is the reason I put forward my complaints and misgivings about the system. Funny thing is that during the qurter and semis I think the results are fairer because of the many more complete sets of voting made. It is easier to complete a set of battles for twenty songs than a set for three hundred or so.

I agree Colin. My point is that whilst this is a great site and a lot of fun it STILL needs refinement. I am not complaining because I put that much importance on the position of MY songs but on the wild swings and often ridiculous positions of some songs in relation to others. I do not think this is down to cheating or perhaps even street teaming I think it is just a bad voting system that shows it does not work properly. Many partial votes do not constitute a full and accurate opinion. This is proven by some of the results. I see no reason why Ourstage cannot produce transparent stats to SHOW us the that the system is fair and works and ALL songs get the same chance. IMO random battles produce random rankings which are seldom accurate.

After topping out at #11 in Folk, I settled at #63. Guess I'll leave it there and see what happens next month.