JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum What do you do with your songs? and when are they finished?

I have been a guitar player forever but have only been writing songs for a few years. I have categorized my songs as follows:

1. Finished, recorded, available on self-produced CDs.
2. Finished and recorded (including some collabs)
3. Need more work including recording (do not consider them finished until I have recorded them)
4. Unfinished lyrics
5. Unused musical ideas

So I am O.K. with categories 1 and 2. Some of the songs are being pitched.

But 3 and 4 seem to grow faster than I can finish them. It is a sort of mind boggling list - not huge but I have a hard time deciding where to go next and where to spend my time. I also have a hard time deciding when to give up on one for whatever reason.

So what words of wisdom do you have? Do you finish every song before you start work on the next one? Do you have a backlog like me? Do you feel the obligation to record a song and nail down the details before you consider it finished?

I notice some people on the boards writing songs at a frenetic pace but I wonder if any of them ever get finished. If you write 90 songs in 90 days, how can you possibly "finish" any of them? It takes me a week to take a finished lyric and develop a melody and chord structure, record various instruments, etc.

I am interested in your methods!!!

Thanks

Hi Colin, I've only been doing this for a very short while. If I can't seem to finish one by myself, I seek out for co-writers, and yes I usually finish one before I start another one..I always have a few ideas written done..but for the most part, I do finish one before starting another..thanks glyn

P.S. and i'm always looking for more co-writers, even though the ones I already have are very great, and talented. Just want to do ones with others too..tks g.

Colin, I'll normally have three or four that I'm working on at any given time. Some will get finished faster than others. Some seem to hang fire for an awfully long time. (Had one take three years before I considered it finished.)

I seem to do a fair amount of "musicating" other people's lyrics. That's separate from the "regular" songwriting, though I might have three or four of *those* going on at the same time, too. Basically, if I hear music when I read the lyrics, I want to get it expressed on tape (or rather, on chip) before I lose it. I especially like to do the "musicating" when I don't have songs of my own popping out like Oriental babies--helps me feel I haven't lost my creativity.

I am forced to record one thing at a time because of the limitations of my equipment. My little Tascam's chip-for-brains can only hold one song at a time, so it's necessary for me to record, and mix, and dump to the 'puter, before I can record another one.

I have only rarely collaborated with somebody on lyrics--just three times, in fact, and none of them was because I had something I couldn't finish. In each case it was because we had deliberately decided to do something together. (It is a hard brain-melding process. If "musicating" is a one-night stand, lyrical collaboration is more like serious dating.) If I've got something that isn't finished, it'll just sit on a shelf until it does get finished. It usually does, even if it can take a long time.

i probably have your categories 1, 2, 4, and 5, but not 3--it ain't a song until it's finished. Just about everything gets tested out on a live audience, to see how they react and whether they request it again. If they do, it's a "keeper." If not, I will do my best to promptly forget it. Something that ends up being *really* popular I'll flag for inclusion on the next album. Right now, I have more of those than I have money to produce them.

I notice I haven't answered the question that was in your heading. i consider a song finished once (1) I think it's as perfect as I can make it, (2) the lyrics have had peer review by other writers (usually here), (3) I can play it in public and it comes out the way I want it to, (4) the music has had peer review (usually on Soundclick), and (5) it's been tested out on a live audience. However, if (6) nobody requests it again, it may never get played again. That ensures I am always dealing with my best stuff and nothing else.

Joe

Hi Colin,

I can relate to your issue. Got a similar list, and depending on what kind of person you are, it can grow to a pool that can inhibit your productivity.

I guess thats what comes of being a creative idea person. The ideas roll in, but in a pace where you can't keep up. But yes, I feel that the work is not out of the workflow untill it is recorded and pitched. The song might be considered finished before, for for me they are dangerous to have around, because I still get ideas to improove them, and frankly that's hell if you have done a recording and perhaps even with a good vocal.

So I don't know if songs ever get finished. Don't have any words of wisdom, except for taking a look sometimes and evaluate the ideas themself (are they really that good), and throw out the ones you don't feel like investing work in or give them to a collaborator. If you are an idea guy, the ideas will keep coming. Anyway, I do that sometimes.

Also a guy named Darious also have an interesting project in the Mp3 Feedback Forum, where he give himself two days to finish a song, and do this for a week or something. That's one way the pile could be reduced. Have'nt tried it though.

I often want to finish a song when I start working on it, but rarely make it. Well, by 'finish' I here mean getting to first base (draft). The songs I do get to first draft with are the songs I work on untill they are finished, because I feel that there must have been some worthwhile flow/ inspiration going on, since it came out in a full shape. So I guess evaluate on action more than judgement.

But don't ask me for good advice, I deal with the same issues constantly. Buried in projects, sometimes completely stunned and don't know what to do.

I have strted to make a kind of priority list, where I think the projects through, like:
- What songs will go together to pitch on a cd - then I try to work on those that will get a 3 song cd finished first.
- What kind of songs have I written, and what kind of songs would look good in my catalogue - then I try to write new kinds of stuff to broaden my experience and learn new things.

I guess there are as many ways as there are writers :-)

I guess I am not alone in having too many fragmented ideas and lacking the discipline to prioritize and complete those that have potential and dump the rest!

Hi Colin

I have LOTs of Unfinished stuff- in fact I really don't consider anything 'finished' - but it's a song if I can share it in some way.

Colin:

Creativity is difficult to categorize, prioritize and control. Despite these obstacles, we all need to develop a framework from which we can maintain a modicum of order. I number every song that is finally recorded and make digital "hard copies" of everything. I keep a spreadsheet/database and include such information as the original copyright date, genre, song title, collaborators (if any), latest version (I recut a song at the drop of a hat and I never throw away a previous version.) I also keep records of when and to whom I pitched a song.

After a short time (about once each month) I print a hard copy of the list and add it to my files just in case my PC crashes. Once a year, I copy each song created that year onto CDs and put them in the vault... in MP3 format. Each lyric of songs worthy enough to pitch is printed and cataloged.

I try to approach it as a business. Unfinished songs are simply a page in my workbooks. I never throw away a lyric. Years later, I have come back to them and you never know what a different perspective at a different time can do. I've salvaged maybe 20% of these old lyrics. Sometimes I will scrap the melody and try something else... and surprisingly... sometimes it works well.

Hope this helps.

Dave

http://www.showcaseyourmusic.com/DaveRice

My songs are to pitch to Artists. I register them with the U.S. Copyright Office using a sound recording to register. Some are demoed by Pro Services, others are my own demos. I suscribe to a Tip Sheet that posts listings twice a month. I have a file of un finished songs where I put anything when I have an idea for a song. I review the file from time to time to see if I can complete something.

I use a CD Burner to make CD's for submissions. I have all my lyrics to finished songs on a disc that I print from. I have an envelpoe that I print out for submissions where I add the Address of who the submission is being sent to with all contact info. I have a cover letter form that I use where I may add other info if needed. My system works fairly well.

Some writers churn out a lot of songs, hoping that one of them will prove hit-worthy. While I admire the prolificness of these writers, I prefer to write less but better (at least that's my intention).

Mitch
www.myspace.com/splitpeasongs
www.reverbnation.com/splitpeasongs

I have very little time to write and record...the odd result is that I write and record a lot of songs pretty quickly. I don't think so much, just keep making choices and pressing the button.

Part of the problem here is that we now wear too many hats. The songwriter is the performer is the engineer is the producer is the manager is the label.

I just cannot perfect all these things, so I write the best song I can while the iron is hot. Chances are I will be recording it in an overlapping timeframe. I produce it to the best of my limited ability and move on to the next one. Meanwhile, I try to hawk these wares. But I think having a big catalog is preferable to having one or two "perfect" specimens to show for all these ground-level efforts.

1. I usually gloat unrealistically for a while and think I must be a genius.

2. I then slowly realize it's another of many nice little number's that most of us put out.

3. I might record it, or just play it at times.

4. Then I either present it to the band, (as for my past songs too), and/or as for the last ten years, put it online to be heard and see what comments come back.

5. Depending on the song, it keeps getting played by me at home, and if so, for when playing out.

6. I look for opportunities to have songs played for TV, film, or events.

7. Write a new song and think yet again about #1. That of course leads to "number two"!

LOL Colin, I just changed the arrangement on a song that I wrote 32 years ago...I am still trying to get around to writing music for the lyric I entered in the LAST lyric contest. (3 years ago?)
I have several songs in mid development, and I still try and play my covertunes, so I can do something familiar for people when I play out. It's a never ending struggle, buddy...if you're one of those people that have to have everything in perfect order...accounting would've been better than songwriting ! !

I almost always finish a song before beginning another. Finished to me is a full song, rough draft, demo recorded (Often a crappy guitar/vox version) - The few times I've collaborated, those songs are usually in addition to whatever I write in the meantime. All but one of my collabs have been on-line, sometimes I get a lyric and do music, sometimes I get music and do a lyric, sometimes it's back and forth, sometimes I give lyric or music (although seldom.) Lots of ways and I'm not very good at collaborating at all. (By not very good, I mean I'm not comfortable with it.)

After doing FAWM, 50 songs in 90 days, and NoSoAlMo all in 2008 I have written 95 songs in 2008, 91 of them are completed lyric with music (or instrumental) so over 90 songs if you count finished. Out of those 90 a great number are pure rubbish. out of the 51 for 50/90 I have 13 tagged as "keepers" and out of the 13 many of them need another draft of lyric. So when I say finished, the writing is done, but the editing, polish, final recorded version all have yet to be done. I like to arrange things as well, and have no problem with a guitar/vox song being thought of as "finished" even if in my mind I know I'm gonna do a full version later: 2 guitars 1 acoustic, 1 electric, bass drums, vox (seldom keys or synth, but sometimes)

If I were to pitch the songs (which I've not seriously considered yet) I would have the next step of recording properly. I'm planning on (just started) doing that with a track listing of 13-14 songs for a self recorded/released cd hopefully due out by late spring.

Are they ever finished? Like Herbie, my songs are liquid things that change and morph as time goes on.

But when they develop the first form of a song, Beginning, substance and end, I like to play the crap out of them for anyone who will listen.

I keep a book for ideas, phrases or anything else that piques my interest. I put all those little scraps of paper that I jot things down on in it. It's more of a permanent thing thats less apt to get lost or thrown out.

You are not alone Colin!
I have lyrics and music that are not finished either.
I even keep my musical turds in hopes of polishing them into better songs.
My turd polisher is not the professional model so it doesn't work well.
Some times I get better ideas while I am recording,sometimes after I get it on tape and then I have to do the song over.
I like to play my songs live before I record because chances are I will discover a way to make them better for recording down the road.
These days I consider a song finished when I am comfortable enough with it to record it.
Songwriting is like guitar playing, in that it is a life long learning experience/process.
By the way I just got your cd,ICW Blues from Cd Baby.
Awesome!

I have used the net to do recordings more to expand my horizons and have more to build in my synapses when I have that that more formidable cd.

Examples being that I have attempted recordings of classic ballads with orchestral touches and songs constructed around 3 part harmony vocals, as well as other attempts at different forms.
There is not really a finish for something like that with me.
If I were out to market something like that, I would get players and singers around that and get some added help in the songwriting department doing music like that that takes more intracacies.

I want to do when all is said and done, simple rock that has enough twists and turns to where it is not so predictable.
Basically expand on the post eighties type of music I started out doing.
So I chose this site to learn more about earlier types of music and home recordings.
I would like something kicked out on my own to better present to perspective musicians for a project and am currently working out a cd for that.

Then there will be something of more finality.

I place creative desires first and foremost, not what I think everyone else will like, whether I get anywhere or not.
But I see the value in planning

Hi Colin,
Well, I don't play, so I write a lot. I have probably between 3 and 400 unfinished lyrics, and even after they are put to music, being pitched, I still think, I could have said this better, used that words, etc. But in all fairness, I hear songs on the radio and think of ways to change them too. Not sure there is ever a finished song, not as long as there is another writer who could add something to improve it.
Some of what I've written, I write what I feel, then I'm done with it for a while. I've been guilty of having three songs on my desktop at once, trying to finish them all, and still made changes after the music came in.
Some, once I hear them to music, I don't love so much, and I'll just kind of put them aside for a bit, just until I have an idea for them, then I'll dig em back out. But no, you're not alone, evertyone has a stack of unfinished songs, just the size of them that varies, I think.

Hi Colin!

Back when I HAD a bit of "Disposable Income", and the Desire to become A Recording Artist, I'd spend from $500 to $12K to put a CD Together. This resulted in a Catalog of about 100 Songs. Some are still "on Hold" (But I'm no longer holding my breath)..others HAVE been picked up/made or are "Making Some Rounds"...but...I no longer feel the urge or necessity to continue Major Efforts to get the stuff To Market..(Since I'm in danger of losing much of my Retirement Income IF I don't get some surplus Real Estate off my Debt Columns.)

So..what I write these days (with a few rare exceptions) is mostly to keep my creative side alive..in-hopes some of the Musically-Inclined WITH hopes of a Recording Career Ahead WILL pick a few up & save 'em from Obscurity.

The Urge to Learn an Instrument..so I'm no-longer at The Mercy of The Musicos..might well take over my Urge to Write this year.
It's always been my Greatest Weakness...being just Half-a-Voice...so..we'll see How The Year & The Money Goes. (With any success at that, then a course in Computer-Recording Techniques might be The Next Step.) Ignorance is FAR from Bliss in this Field..& Lyrics-Alone are far from The Finished Product.

So..when I've Learned a bit More..(& hopefully HAVE some more of the Always-Required LOOT to pull it off)..then I'll get back to the task of finishing-up about 1400 Songs-That-Just-Sit.

In the meantime...heck...I'll happily bang out a few more! It's cheaper than playin' the Lottery...and ya just never know..Today's might end up a Winner!

Best Wishes for 2009,
Big Hugs,
Stan

Yes, I am an engineer and worked as project manager among other things so keeping things organized was a requirement!

I guess most everyone has the same issues. It is just a matter of keeping everything organized and trying to finish songs rather than let them sit and ferment. I tend to lose interest in what seemed like a brilliant idea if I don't get on with it and finish it.

Keep your ideas coming!!!

Colin:

We have similar backgrounds. Yep, organization is important. I posted earlier, so I won't cover that ground again... just wanted to say... Don't throw anything away... even if you have a cardboard box to hold notes, song clips or ideas for songs. You can always recover that idea later that way. I agree with some of the others on the importance of getting the lyric and melody down... even if in basic form. You can always change it or add more when the Muse is more receptive.

Dave

Colin, insteresting topic. The unfinished songs are an issue. I keep them for three months. I then listen to or study them critically again. I throw them away if they don't seem to measure up. I like closure and don't like to keep a lot of remants around.

For the finished songs, sometimes they are not finished. I submit finished songs to Taxi, and based on the comments I receive, some of them get redone. Bill Creel and I are presently working on re-doinig several songs, based on reviews from Taxi.

Tom

Hi Colin: Thank you for starting this interesting discussion.

I'm not an engineer but did something similar including project management. I'm not nearly as organized as I would like, but what helps me is keeping hard copies (of poems) I submitted in binders. That's just in addition to the stuff I keep electronically. And that might not work when there's volume in the hundreds of entries...but I'm not there yet. Not even close.

Again, thanks for sharing. I found this discussion insightful!

For the longest time I had 80% of the chords and melody for "It's Not Happening" (track #1 on my Myspace and Reverbnation pages) but just couldn't manage the final 20%. The basic shape of the melody felt strong; I just couldn't figure out where to put a hook. Grrr!

Then one day -- years after starting -- I had a breakthrough, and all the pieces came together. The result is a song that a number of artists have expressed interest in cutting. Several publishing offers, too.

If something feels strong, I wouldn't give up on it.

Mitch
www.myspace.com/splitpeasongs
www.reverbnation.com/splitpeasongs

Hi Colin for me as a lyricist the project is never done until I can get the right music for the lyrics Creative people like all of us here could always look over an old lyric and find something new Once the music is done I move on aand don't look back

Colin,

I'm pretty much "odd man out" on this subject. I am much more progmatic than most people in the creative arts. It probably comes down to how one defines "finished".

In my mind, a song is finished when I feel I have done the best I can do with it, lyrically and musically. I leave the door open for additional tweaks. But once I have done the best I can, and have evaluated all the suggestions of others and incorporated the ones I wanted to, it is done...finished! A tweak is just that...a tweak...it's not a rewrite.

That doesn't mean a song cannot be made better. But when it is as good as I can get, with all outside help applied, I still call it finished. Almost everything, musical and otherwise, could always be better. So, I approach it pragmatically rather than idealistically.

I also approach the recording process as an entity seperate from the song. The recording process doesn't make a song better. It does make the delivery of the song better; but the song is either good, bad or somewhere in the middle before the recording process begins. A technically fabulous recording of a bad song will not make it a better song. Thus, I do not include the recording as a criteria for evaluating a song, per se. To me, that is much like saying a car is a bad car because it is painted an ugly color. It possibly makes it less appealing to the potential buyer, but does not make the car a lesser quality car....just a less attractive car that runs great and is a joy to drive and ride in.

My musical efforts are ascribed in the following categories:

(1) Finished - Recorded
(2) Finished - Unrecorded
(3) Unfinished Lyric - Needs More Work
(4) Finished Lyric - Needs Music
(5) Unfinished Music For Lyric - Needs More Work
(6) Finished Music For Lyric - Needs Lyrics
(7) Unfinished Instrumental Music
(8) Finished Instrumental Music

Although I do a lot of experimenting by mixing genres and using non-traditional instruments, and have a hell of a good times doing it, I approach the rest of it straight forward. I do not play mind games with myself. I generally know when I have done the best I can do, either individually or with collaborators. when I, or my collaberators and I, have done the best we can do, it is just plain old finished! Maybe someone else could have done better. But I, or my collaborators and I, cannot. Thus it is finished.

I am usually working on 5 or 6 msuic projects at one time. I also write novels...I've written 5 so far. I do the same there. I have finsihed 5 but I am currently working on 3 others.

If the rest of the world waited for everything to be near perfect before they made it available for public consumption, very few things would ever hit the market. I approach my music the same way other businesses do. When I have deemed a music project finished to the best of my ability at that time, I make it available. If the listeners like it, I am delighted. If they do not, I am not crushed. If I have already done the best I can do, I do not fret over trying to make it better when I cannot. I just accept that it isn't something the listener enjoys and move on.

Interesting topic. Hope 2009 is agreat year for you!

Alan

For me a song is never finished either. I am continually learning newer techniques and applying them or clearing up a vocal/instrument or trying to do something better.

Its about the evolution of a song not the creation of it.

I only have finished songs and ideas.

Finished is everything that I either perform regularly or have made a recording of. The rest are just ideas. I never write down an idea until I consider it finished. I figure if I can't remember the darn thing, it's not very good anyway... better not waste any paper on it!

Great thread Colin,

And great ideas from everyone too. I can relate to many of them and despite Al thinking he's the odd man out I totally get where he's coming from.

As a performer my arrangements for recording are generally different from live and like almost all singer/songwriters I know things I've been performing for years tend to morph over time. Apart from that I have the usual swag of half finished lyrics/music that we all have and I try and not dwell on them too much or too often. Having said that I often find the 'missing link' to another song if I troll through them when I'm stuck on something else.

I have a theory that while creativity is hard to control, people like me (read 'obsessive compulsive') have a need to impose some order. What I strive for is to put myself in the best possible situation for the creativity to take over. That is to write & play regularly and not with any particular purpose in mind. I try and give myself time to doodle musically and lyrically and often things that have been simmering under the surface will float to the top - either like bubbles or scum (lol)

I always have multiple projects let alone songs on the boil and I think that's what keeps me interested. Also I increasingly find that sections from one project or song will spill over into another. Like all of us, I'm sure there really aren't enough hours in the day!

In my experience as a long time composer, writer and teacher, what works for me isn't likely to work for others but the more we share our ideas, the more we can find common ground, adapt and grow. Bravo Colin for bringing this up!

I am not out to be a performing musician.
I hear arena acts like Foreigner that I always thought made great studio albums.
And they take their songs on an album and change the dynamic in concert.
Sometimes emphasizing another instrument.
No wonder Jason Bonham urged the band to come back.

Much of what is live sounds like a studio album with crowd noise, but then there are those acts that can really expand a song.

Any worthy song ideas that is decided should be played in any which way.

If I do something any one way, that does not mean I am not open to other ways.

But I am not out to be a performing musician or "Juke Box Hero" at the same time.

My goodness what a great topic thank you. I too am hoping for an answer. I work things over and over and over , when probably the first pass was the best. I did that with papers in college and they were always turned in late. It is a problem for me. Now I am just trying to say "there its done" then of course I go back to it
:-)

Colin,

Hello, my name is Marc-Alan Barnette. I am a singer/songwriter and teacher based in Nashville Tn. I teach elements of songwriting, performance, networking, am a guide through the recording and business processes. Let me see if I can take a swing from a bit of a "Nashville old dog" perspective.

Most of us who write professionally for publishers, artists, teaching, etc. approach everything in a very methodical way. Most of the hit writers (Steele, Wiseman, Rutherford) etc. approach it the same way as most people approach any job. We have multiple appointments a day with a variety of people. usually there are two appointments, one in the morning and one in the afternoon.

We work in a fairly specific time frame,two to three hours and then the real skill level brings the emotion, the experiences, along with the craft and concentration nessasary the same as any craftsman. The key to Nashville writing is taking a subject we have all heard a million times before but trying to "twist it" in a way we haven't quite heard a million times before. This is called the "Twist on the tale."

Most Nashville songs have three basic frameworks:
#1 REal
#2 Conversational tone
#3 Memorable melodic hook

We write in many styles but most of the time write with other people as that doubles the chances of activity. In this day and age, you are trying to write with artists or producers, anything that gets you closer to the source. And by sharing ideas it doubles and triples your output not to mention your chances of having them heard.
In the past four years I personally have written around 920 songs with about 1200 people all over the world. I am paid as a consultant and my songwriting lessons are designed to teach form, craft, structure, melody, and lyrical development in a practical application format. Of those over 200 demos have been done and somewhere around 75 are being currently pitched.
One of my clients, Frankie Ballard, signed a major publishing deal with Sony Music in August, and as of this Thus. is on the verge of signing a major record deal with Warner Brothers records. that is one year after writing his first song with me. but it was far from me alone. It takes a great deal of people to develop a career, but I do feel I played an important part.

Many of the Nashville appointments are booked in twos, with one starting the song, developing the template, then the writers going on their own, working out details, performing the song, doing home work tapes, playing for their publishers, getting critiques etc. Then subsequent appointment is made to finish and formalize the song. So at anyone time you might have twenty or thirty songs in some stage of development.

This gives you options on your pitching and demo choices. With multiple people involved, it helps with demo costs and again, if there are multiple people performing, pitching and talking about the song, you increase your chances exponentially.

And while of course every song cannot be a huge hit home run, you increase your chances of hitting doubles and triples. While some people might not adapt to this process and few write at that pace, you find the major guys at the top of the pyramid do write around 175 songs a year with 65-70 people. And in this day and age they are finding the "New and up and comers" before they get the deals, thereby having a better shot at the ground floor, which is why you see the same names over and over on current country playlists.

I hope this has provided some insight as to the workings of some of us here on the Row. I am always happy to respond to comments or questions regarding the process or other areas. Feel free to contact me here or at my personal e-mail, MBarne4908@aol.com.
Good luck to you all and happy writing. Don't quit.

MAB

Hi Marc
I met you at the NSAI portion of Pineyfest a few years back. Your post was an excellent addition to this thread, and it's very nice to see you here on the JPF boards. Brian will tell you that only about 5% of the JPF membership is active on these boards, but though we are small in numbers, we are a close-knit group. You are embroiled in the heart of what is going on in Nashville, no doubt, and everything you can add here will be SO very welcome and valuable to our community. I hope you enjoy your time here ! Thanks for stoppping in ! !

I am glad I started this thread because it seems a lot of folks have the same kinds of problems I do in terms of organization and inspiration.

And thanks Marc for joining in and giving us the perspective from where the action is. I can see that writing 175 songs a year would require terrific organization skills in addition to the skills to write the songs in the first place.

I have signed up for the FAWM "contest" so will try cranking out a song every other day and see if I can do it. Gonna be like a full time job I think.

Collin and Herbie,

Thanks so much for the welcome and thank you for remembering me. I am invovled in some things with the Nashville Chamber of Commerce whereas we are trying to develop a "Music Row" chamber of commerce, where we can help you more directly, give advice and lend the helping hands where you might need it. While we can't all have hit songs, we can all have better songs, and make a positive contribution to our art, our craft, our musical community, and our understanding of elements of the industry where it is not so complicated and daunting.
In my efforts and my life, I deal day in and day out with not only the industry but people such as yourselves, the meat and potatoes of my life and others, men and women who care about what they do, pursue their hobby seriously and like a second job, just like we do here. So I am here for you whatever you need. You got questions? I am here for just that purpose.
Colin, I don't mean to intimate that every one has to write at that level. I am a different case, I am paid for it and do it in context of teaching. I kind of teach by doing. I can better show you some of the process and principals by doing it than explaining it to you. And if I do my job that carries over to all your songs. That is why I call what I do a "Teaching excercise with a practical application effect."
But bringing a level of discipline to any endevor only increases your abilities. What you are needing are the "sixth sense" instincts that hit Nashville writers employ, that helps us avoid overused cliches, rhymes, subjects, and find the twist that takes us to more unique songs and outlooks.
Those are the things that take an average idea like "Live like you were dying" to a line like "Two point seven seconds on a bull named Fu Manchu." That is Nashville writing. I call them "elbow moments" because you want to hit the person next to you with your elbow as if to say "Did you hear that?" That is what the big boys do.
I am glad I found you guys. I am online continuously, it is my primary way of communcation. Please do not hesitate to contact me with questions or comments here or on my e-mail, MBarne4908@aol.com.

Thanks and see you around,

MAB

Hi Colin! ... Off the board..I usually have several songs or projects I'm working on. At the moment...collabs in various stages...and three of my own I'm working through. Many times I find myself getting too scattered and have to make myself focus harder. I'm not normally fast... and I'm constantly re-evaluating songwriting priorities. This past week...a publisher acquaintence contacted me...and that call presented an opportunity...so...priorities changed again.

I don't throw anything away anymore...I do move on when I'm stuck and I also holler for help. Sometimes, the ones I return to are like unwrapped presents and I get excited all over again.

very best to you this mornin'
Kaley

Hi and welcome Marc,

It so nice to have you here!!...and Hope to learn a lot by reading what you share with us. Thank you.

best to you this mornin'
Kaley

Kaley,
Thank you. Let me know if there is anything I can address that might help you.

MAB

If you'll allow a 40-year vet to butt into this discussion, I might be able to offer another perspective on this topic.

Some songwriters think it's a numbers game. They think if you write a lot of volume, you've got a better chance of hitting. While that may have worked for some writers in years past, I'm not sure it's a valid philosophy for this day and age. The competition is too great and the slots are too few.

As a writer, we all need to be self-aware enough to know which ideas or concepts are the ones that are worthy of our time and effort. The themes that we feel the strongest emotional resonance with should be the ones we follow through on and keep working on until they're completely bullet-proof. I believe the public knows sincerity when they hear it. If a song isn't coming from an honest place in the heart of the writer(s), it has no cred, and little chance of succeeding out there in the marketplace.

That's not to say that every song has to be substantial in theme or a world-changer. If you love partyin', dancin'& drinkin'songs, write 'em. Your passion for the material, regardless of the subject matter, will carry through to the listener.

If a writer devotes his or her energies honestly to the song ideas that mean something to him or her, then these hard choices will take care of themselves.

Every time I've tried to figure out what the public wants, or tried to write something "for radio" it comes out phony. And, even though I might think I'm clever as hell, those songs invariably fail to get the response I'm looking for.

Aside from the many songs I've written with artists (who initiated and felt strongly about the themes we were writing), or for musicals or feature films where there was specific subject matter demanded, I can't think of a single cut I've gotten through the years that wasn't a truly sincere expression — and I've had about 230 cuts, by everybody from Heart & Cheap Trick to Indigo Girls & Tim McGraw.

So don't be afraid to abandon the songs that you don't feel compelled to complete. Concentrate on the ones that demand your attention. That should weed out a hunk o' dead wood right there. Just because a song has a clever title or twist doesn't mean it's a song you should be obligated to finish and deliver to the world. Clever is intellectual. Songs are emotional things.

Screenwriter William Goldman says he always asks himself two questions before accepting a job: Do I love it? and... Can I make it play? In other words, he wants to make sure he feels passionately about the idea before he spends months of his life toiling with it and... He want to be pretty darn sure that he's the writer who can really deliver the goods. Goldman has written some of the greatest screenplays of all time, everything from Butch Cassidy to Princess Bride to Marathon Man.

Write about what you care about, and the songs will tell you which ones need your undying devotion and attention. And, let the rest go. (But, always save your bits and pieces, because there will be unused spare parts that just might come in handy down the road.)

Write on - onward and upward.
Rand

Very good advise Rand,
Someone said somewhere don't try to be all thing to all people. Write what you like rather than what you think someone else will like. After you get a body of work you can pitch to those that you think may cut your songs. Sometimes I don't pitch if I don't feel I have anything for that artist. If I can listen to the Artist so much the better. Many have Web Sites so go look if you haven't heard them yet.

And that is why you have to get multiple opinions to decide what is right for you.

Rand and my opinions would seem to be diametrically opposed but actually there is more in common than there may seem. I am in a lot of different directions, so I probably am going to write more songs than many people. But writing at the rate I have have enabled me to make each song rise to higher levels and while nobody hits homeruns everytime, I find my averages have gotten better with each song I have written.

And many of the people that I come across have written five or six songs in their lifetimes and it shows. I try to get their numbers up to get them in the habit of writing more evenly. And giving themselves more opportunities. And also I am concerned with them making many friends and co-writers to increase their odds of putting themselves in good positions.

More is not nessasarily better, but when it comes to briging the discipline into writing I feel it is important to increase your output, just like going to a gym and adding more weight every so often.

At any rate, no matter how much or what you write, should be approached the same way. To touch people in some way in every line, every note, every message. We should be touching lives first and foremost.

MAB

Clever is intellectual. Songs are emotional things.
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At any rate, no matter how much or what you write, should be approached the same way. To touch people in some way in every line, every note, every message. We should be touching lives first and foremost.
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HHHmmmm.....great food for thought guys ! !

Hi Colin.

I have a least three catagories working for me.

1. Finished. When I am satisfied but with the understanding that I may need to come back to it later. (I am never afraid of the re-write.)

2. Recorded / Performed and
3. Ideas. (This is a large folder)

I usually try to finish the idea at least from beginnig to some kind of conclusion. (I can always come back to it later.)

BUT I do have those bits and pieces of ideas here and there.

"Finished?" That depends on a lot of things.

Great topic.

Douglas