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Now that's a hoot ! Have you noticed that Ourstage is a JPF sponsor ?

Hey Brian, we're getting spammed by the sponsers, good grief !

Too funny, just too funny......

Ms Faber, I think you need to return to your boss and ask a few questions before proceeding further.....

cheers, niteshift

Geoff, you knobtwiddling sot, Kathleen just offered to personally set up accounts for folks. She's real. See, the trouble here is Australian beer. Here in Minnesota, it's strong and hearty, yet it still provides clarity.

(I'm almost done with your guitar track, mate. Cheers! -mk)

So she's real ? Not like those girls I download from.... oh never mind.

Free accounts ? Ok, cool, I'll take seven. What do I win ? Hope it's an air conditioner..... have to drink beer to stay cool.

So she's personally going to set me up ? With who ? Hope she's purty.....

cheers, niteshift

There it is. I'm going to write a song called "What Do I Win?" before the end of February. Thanks bloke!

You're welcome Mark. Just call me Mr 10%

cheers, niteshift

There... much better now.

Brian

Katherine is getting paid to recruit people to join. That's fine, but quite uncool to spam us with it when we're already partnered with Ourstage. So I change the links to the appropriate JPF ones.

Brian

hahaha!!! there ya go ..put her to work for you/US !!!

Good one Brian. Hope it's paid clicks.......( as oppossed to paid chicks ) Eveyone, please click on the links in the origional post !

And I'm still waiting to be set up !

cheers, niteshift

Hey Mark,

No ! It’s you that’s on the wrong track. If you re-read the relevant highlights, it’s as follows….

“Hello, My name is Kathleen…… I'm a …. quick and easy ……. Load…..and compete to win prizes each month . In addition to ….spots…. and more….If you would like……I'll even set you up. you - just send me. … I will do all the footwork for you. I hope to hear from you soon!"

See Kaufman, some of us can read between the lines. This is a post from ex-Miss Russia, who has finally tracked me down, after many email attempts which have been in vain.

That Minnesota beer has got to your brain. It’s either spam, or I’m in looooove……..

cheers, niteshift

PS - thanks for the guitar track. I hope to mix next week.

Now if she can show me an easy way to remove a song I've uploaded or replace it with a better recorded one, I'd be happy.

Seems to be a big deal.

She's not really an employee. She's a commission field rep who gets paid for each sign up she gets. I don't blame her for trying to make a buck, I just think she's doing a poor job if she's not aware of what she's doing. We have some JPF members who are field reps and they are smart enough to know that Ourstage is already a JPF sponsor.

Brian

I think that that's the problem Brian. Employing people who simply don't have a clue.

My wife had one of these types through her studio only last week, ( and she's REAL industry ) Poor girl just made a damn ass of herself. It's not about silly skirts and semi-witti-irrelavant comments.

The real workers take them as a joke, and move on. No offence Kathleen, you're most welcome here, and will be accorded the due respect you deserve, if you have an in depth knowledge to impart, and are willing to learn, and share it with others ( no strings )

cheers, niteshift

Hey Brian,

I don't mean to grind an old ax here. I know that you've partnered with OurStage and as such are probably not willing to side against them in any kind conflict. I even signed up with them because I saw your post here saying that you felt that they were actually running a site that was truly free of games in their competitions but after experiencing some of the competitions there, I have to disagree with what you said in your latest JPF email note.

"OurStage: is a purely democratic, game free online competition where the fans decide who's best in emerging music and film and rewards the winners with real opportunities through their partnerships with major music festivals and touring acts."

Yes, the fans did decide that one of my songs, These Old Shoes, won one of their monthly contests last April. From over 400 entries my song was chose by listeners as their number one pick. The prize, a chance to perform at the Newport Folk Festival, but that honor was not bestowed upon me for my win. I was offered no explanation as to why I, as one of the four monthly winners, did not get the chance to play one of the four slots at the festival but afterward I found that the winners were chose because they were younger than I.

So, while I'm certain that you feel obligated to continue to support your partner, OurStage, in their endeavors please understand that the "games" that they play are very real and very disappointing to some of us on the short end of that stick. I noticed that they even changed the header on their site from "Let The Fans Decide" to "The Best New Music - The Best New Artists". I think that, more than anything, probably says it all. I'm still a member there and I continue to update my site with info and new songs but I have far less hope of actually getting any kind of real success via that route.

I also have grave concerns about the number of sites popping up, like OurStage, that want artists to sign up for free and post their music and videos. Why does OurStage make it impossible for artists to delete their own songs from the site? I can delete my songs from my MySpace account and every other account that I join. Why do they insist upon archiving artist's songs even after they are "officially" deleted by the staff? What are they doing with all of that material after the fact? I find it hard to believe that they are simply archiving for posterity or to illustrate past competitions at the site. It makes me suspect that there's something underhanded at work.

It seems to me that if an artist wishes to no longer be associated with the site, since we maintain complete control over the rights to our material, then we should have the right ot deny such use after we've left a particular site. None of these issues are adequately explained before users sign up with a site like OurStage.

Why are so many sites interested in attracting so many artists and their material? Do these sites make money via some other means with the artist's material that they are not telling us about? It's dreadful to imagine but I wonder if we are all just getting ripped off by a whole new breed of industry thieves.

I know that MySpace used to say to artists, come build a free webpage and we'll host your music and expose you to millions of fans. Now they host advertisers ads that pop up over the music players on the site. There are ads everywhere at that site. So, I guess the real reason that they wanted folks like me to post my music there is so that they could profit from my efforts via advertisers. Is that what these site are really about, just profiting from the efforts of artists?

Reg

Reg, if I recall the rules of the Newport channel, it said that the Newport Folk Festival people would choose an act from the channel to play, not necessarily the winner of that channel, and not OurStage. It was Newport's call. Sorry you didn't get picked, though, and hopefully you still got the hundred bucks. I remember your song, it was great.

Hi Reggie. Just like radio, WIIFM(What's In It For Me)is the ACRONYM of choice for all businesses. Selling ad space is what sites such as OurStage are all about. Selling air time ads is what radio is about. It's only a win-win situation if both parties get something out of it. OurStage is selling ad space and the artist can get exposure - which is necessary for material success. That's about as simple as I can put it.

So, who is happy with their free site?
Nadia

Reggie,

I was directly involved in that process. We had an agreement that at least 1 JPF member would be among the names that were submitted to Newport for the performance slot. There was no guarentee that one would even be chosen.

It would be 100% irresponsible for anyone to book someone to do a set on the Mainstage of the Newport Folk Festival based solely on how 1 of their songs did in ANY contest. That wouldn't tell you a thing about how they performed live, if they had enough great material to do an entire set and if that set of music was appropriate for what the needed at the event. The #1 concern is the fans at the event and what will most entertain them. The promoters must make the right decisions or their event will fail going forward. It's just that simple.

I endorsed 5 names that were JPF members that finished in the Top 5 in the category during the process. One was a winner and the others were close to winners. I didn't have to submit your name Reggie because the category winners were automatically considered as I remember. I had seen 3 of the 5 perform live and could endorse not only their recorded music, but their stage presence and live abilities. That's a big benefit to coming out to a JPF event and performing because I never endorse a performance situation unless I have seen them in person. Fortunately I've seen nearly 18,000 of our members perform live in person.

So they considered the folks we sent and Ourstage actually submitted not one of them, but 4 of them including the 3 I had seen live and 1 other along with the winners of the channels which I believe would have included you Reggie. They rejected everyone except 2 people. Both JPF members. The first was unable to change their schedule and the second, Ryan Fitzsimmons, was available and did the gig. I saw Ryan perform live 5 different times in the past and was familiar with his catalog of work from the awards as well. He did a great job.

There were others I think that could have done a great job too. Some didn't do well enough for us to even put forward, and that was fair enough. But Ourstage NEVER suggested they choose the winners for a performance opportunity. That could be disasterous for everyone involved. I assure you that less than half the people in the tops of those months would be appropriate for a featured slot at Newport. And by the way, I was never asked the age of any of the folks we submitted, nor do I have any idea how old you are. It wasn't an issue that was ever raised by anyone. If Newport themselves used that as a criteria, they didn't tell any of us. So I am not sure who told you that? But even if it was true, they were allowed to choose from those who finished well. They could use any criteria they wanted after that point. I will say that Newport is not your fathers Newport Folk Festival. It was really more of a Rock concert this time around with new owners and trying to attrack some younger audience members so it can survive. The old format simply couldn't keep the old owners in business any longer. That's just life. All concert tours are struggling. You have to do what you have to do to survive.

So, I don't get the beef you have to pick with Ourstage. You won a category, got a prize, got some recognition and it costs you ZERO. Where is the downside there?

And if you want your music off the site (why you would is anyone's guess) you can contact them. They don't want people pulling stuff on and off constantly because their voting system could be affected if they did.

As for the comments about Game Proof, I think they stopped using that language actually. I told them from the start that it's not game proof, as nothing is that allows fans from the outside to vote. If you had 100,000 million friends come and vote, they could fix the vote for you right? Sure, that's an extreme, but it proves the point that nothing is "game proof" and it's a silly thing to say. But at the time we ran that blurb, it was their own self description right off their website. We acknowledge they are sponsors at all times and you could choose to use them or not. We're 100% transparent in that way.

Brian

Mark,

Yep, I found out after the fact that the decision would be made, according the fine print, by folks from both OurStage and Newport and that they would be chose from among the artists that had the highest rankings in the contests. My song was one of the four with the highest rankings, having won one of the four monthly contests in this competition. They didn't let contest winners know exactly how many slots would be available until after the contest was finished. Perhaps, in their defense, they didn't know for certain. I found out that there were four stage performace slots available afterward. I had no idea that my song was going to win but I figured that it would be considered in the final picks if it did. If there were four monthly contests and four performance slots became available, I figured that I had a good chance of being one of those four winning performers. I didn't read the fine print beforehand, simply because I had no idea that it even existed until the contest was over.

I tried to contact the site but they're slow in returning emails. So, I then started sifting through what info I could find at the site for this contest and that's when I stumbled upon the fine print. The vagueness of the info that I found there, regarding the contest, left questions in my mind as to exactly how the winners would be chose. I sent off an email to the site asking them to clarify exactly how the winners would be determined but they wouldn't answer my question plainly. I'm a plain talkin' guy. If someone tells me that there are no games going on and that these contests are legit, I believe them, until I experience otherwise via my participation.

That's my point about this site and the statement that Brian posted in his email. This was a contest but there were also games being played regarding this particular contest and who would get selected and also how they would be chose. There have been a number of times that I posed questions to the site that never got answered adequately. I'm not certain why the site administrators would be so tight lipped about answering questions but they are. It's as if they're saying that it's none of my business but given that I've agreed to participate in the contests there, I find that point of view a difficult one to defend. Tranparency is the concept that I associate with the idea of being "game free" but I don't see this site as being particularly transparent. If anything, they become rather uncommunicative and annoyed if you even ask questions.

After it was all over, I saw a small post at the site that stated that the winners were chose because of their age. The line read something like, they wanted to infuse the festival with younger talent. That admission nullified the entire contest in my mind. It sucked to find out in this way too, that my chance to play this event was foiled, not because I wasn't talented enough as a songwriter and performer and not beacause listeners didn't find my recording to be among the best, because they did. I wasn't chose because I didn't fit into someone's idealized image of youth. I was under the impression, given that the banner for the site used to read, "Let The Listeners Decide", that it meant that the listeners had spoken, regarding the worth of my song and my talent as a performance artist, in this contest but I guess being talented wasn't enough for this contest, you merely had to be young or at least young than I am.

My point is that the folks at OurStage could have been more up front with that fine print info beforehand. They could have made the info easier to find at the site and made certain that they pointed those considering entering the contest toward that info before they had the opportunity to enter. The details could have been more plain and specific in their explanation regarding how winners would be chose. That way, those entering the contest would have known that the decision was going to be made by more than simply the listener's votes.

Yup, I got the hundred buck gift card for having a number one song pick but I didn't realize that it had a deadline tied to its use and before I could use it, the deadline had passed. It became invalid after that. So. I didn't get to spend the $100. I contacted the site to see if they would be willing to reimburse me but they told me that they bought the cards in bulk and suggested that I might try to contact the card makers. You can imagine how well that went.

I've not let this incident hinder my efforts at writing or performing. I continue to perform my original songs and interpretations of old gems for listeners who are delighted with my work and support it via their purchases of my recordings. I have many new songs in the works and I have no doubt that many more will be passing my way.

Thanks for your kind comments regarding my song, These Old Shoes. It does seem to touch folks whenever I offer it up. The best to you in all of your musical endeavors.

Reg

Hi Brian,

I had no idea that you were so involved with that process.

I had no idea that this event had "new" owners/producers and that it was now more of a rock concert. It sounds like the path that our folk festival now moving toward.

I met one of the producers of the Newport event at another festival event that I was invited to perform at last summer. He came by with his son and paused where I was playing casually along a busy footpath. After I finished a couple of songs, he mentioned an event that his group was producing in Whistler and he invited me to play there the following weekend. I told him that I was waiting for word as to whether I might be included in the Newport event via the OurStage contest and he told me that his company also produced the Newport Folk Fest and that they were partners in OurStage. I offered him my info but I never heard back from him regarding the details of my participation at Whistler. So, I was hesitant to simply drive up there because I was unsure whether I'd be able to play. After the fact I heard that Whistler didn't go so well for their first year.

I hear what you're saying regarding the idea of awarding an entertainer a slot by more evidence than his winning a contest but that's what the contest was advertised as providing. The folks at OurStage or Newport could have asked me for a bio or they could have looked at any of my sites online, which are all over the web, all you have to do is Google my name. My bio is full to the brim of my accomplishments, to give anyone interested an idea of what I've done and what I can do. They could also have found past calendars at some of those same sites that go back several years detailing the events I've performed for in the recent past. They also could have found YouTube videos of some of my exploits. I've posted photos at these sites that date back 30 years. My point is that my info was out there and has been out there for anyone to view for years and it wasn't nearly as hard to locate or understand as the fine print was to that contest.

My beef is that I entered this contest to win a chance to play at the Newport Folk Festival. That's how they advertised the contest in the channel description. I didn't win. Even though my song won, I did not. Yes, I got some attention drawn toward my efforts as a songwriter and a performer. I wasn't looking for the monthly $100 gift card prize. I found out that there was no fee involved, no travel expenses provided and probably little or no advertising that I would even be included at the event. I was willing to hitchhike there to play the event, if that's what it took. But that's all water under the bridge at this point.

As to your question as to why anyone would want their music off the site, that's a whole nuther kettle of fish that I won't bother you with at this time.

Reg

Reggie,

The guy who performed WAS someone who earned that because we did well in the Ourstage Contest. He had zero other contact or pathway to get the gig. Ourstage was always 100% clear that they do NOT promise categories winners a slot, only the opportunity to be considered for the slot. If you didn't read it (and it was NOT fine print.. it was common knowledge amongst the folks I spoke with and we announced in in 4 consecutive months in the newsletter and on the website here) then it's not their fault right? And the reason is both obvious and fair. To get a featured slot, you need to have great material (which Ourstage can help bring attention to) but also have depth of material and be a great entertainer. If you took a song off an album that was great but where the singer was just a guy in his studio basement who never performed live gigs and couldn't sing without auto-tune and booked them, that would be the end of the whole process for everyone. So it was a starting point and was advertised as such. And they DID book someone who finished in the finals at Ourstage and was then put forward by the Ourstage staff and chosen solely by the organizers at Newport.

I know for a fact your name was considered and we discussed that you were also a JPF member. So in fact you WERE considered, exactly as they promised. They considered 5 names, but they only booked 1 name. And that was Ryan Fitzsimmons. He's a very active regional performer and top notch on stage. I have no idea how old you are, but you're probably older since you disclosed above that you've had a 30 year career. So you're probably at least late 40s. But I wouldn't have known that from your music or your avatar.

You tell a story of someone from that festival seeing you live. it's quite possible that he decided, after seeing you live, that he liked a different performer more. If you have 5 strong candidates and 1 slot, 4 strong candidates are going to get passed over. If you have dozens, which I am sure they had in those top slots on Ourstage, a LOT of great performers are going to get passed by. That's how it all works. And what makes you think that nobody googled your name or looked at your website? I bet they probably did. (I know in some cases they did because we chatted at the time about a couple). Why do you feel they had it out for you in some way?

By your own words, Ourstage did EXACTLY what they agreed to do. By doing well, as you did, they gave you consideration for a slot at the Newport Folk Festival that was specifically set aside for an Ourstage artist. You WERE considered and in this case, you weren't chosen. You're a long time professional, is this the first gig that someone has passed you up for? Really? Were they always out to get you in some way?

You can't take it personally. If they hadn't booked an Ourstage artist, that would be an entirely different story. But they did. They just chose a different one. All the names we put forward were great artists. At least 3 were also great live performers (heck, one even won our award for best live artist). And Ryan, who eventually got the slot, will certainly be among the finalists for this year's awards. If I recall, your song had a very trad folk sound and Ryan's style is more New Folk in style. So that alone could be a factor in what they wanted for the concert.

And finally, if you wanted to play there, you should have checked out who was playing. They had a lot of current/non folk bands booked. They know they have to attract a crowd in a difficult marketplace and there aren't many younger folk artists around right now that have an audience. Most of the famous folk artists are still from the 60's or are more regionally popular acts. There's all sorts of factors that go into it. It may have helped Ryan that he lived in RI. I do know he had no connections to or contacts in the event, but I know he gigs around the region a lot. Even that could have factored in. Or, they might have just simply liked him better. After 30 years, I'd think you'd understand all that better than anyone. I am sure you've won gigs over others who wondered why they weren't picked instead. We all have at one time or another. It doesn't mean anything bad was going on.

Brian