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#765289 10/30/09 02:01 AM
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I've done some nice stuff using clicks (and our engineer virtually insists on it). However, I also think they tend to limit inuitive tempo changes that a great live-band might have, and they also tend to flatten the playing.

A lot of older recordings have a great feel and sometimes I think they wouldn't have sounded the same with a click-trac.

Also, I keep hearing that click tracks are virtually required by ProTools!!! Is that true?

Comments are so welcome!!!

David

Last edited by david Leinweber; 10/30/09 02:02 AM.

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I think "it depends".

We spent decades trying to find perfect timing, and now that we have it, we consider it robotic. So now there is drum software with a "Humanize" function that screws up the timing just a tad.

But I think a click track is usually the way to go. You can achieve feel and swing by the dynamics of your playing. Sometimes it's best to record a live band without a click, or a guitar/vocal performance.

But the click isn't being recorded...the playing is. You can still mess with the beat by strumming just a bit ahead of it or behind it to give it a sense of rush or lag. I'd say 90% of the time, the click doesn't stink at all. It's your friend.

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I am with Mark....Freeform performances by a band or individual when recorded live are great and no click track is needed or should be used as it loses the live feel especially with ad libs thrown in etc. That said when a work is being layered piece meal and built up using Midi or VST loops etc then a click track is essential. The different parts have to mesh and fit perfectly to the beat therefore the tempo must be constant and spot on. Sadly I have not met any drummers or other musicians who can play freeform and match a strict tempo spot on without the need for a click track. In fact a lot of them play to a click track when laying down a part and use it as a tool to keep perfect time albeit only in their head. That does not mean that they have to play like a robot.

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As Jim said; an essential when layering.

In Logic Pro, when using a click track, I don't think of it as beats in a measure. It's just a continuing beat at “X” number of bpm. Often I hang an extra beat or two/three in measures. I'll go by feel. Also, I've trained myself to ignore the click during ritards, accelerandos, or free cadenza-type episodes. Too lazy to turn the click off.

Anyway, thank goodness for the click track. It would add hours to the recording session without it.

John smile

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"Sadly I have not met any drummers or other musicians who can play freeform and match a strict tempo spot on without the need for a click track" - Jim

It's been years since I've used "live" drummers in the studio. In those bygone days there were a limited number of drummers that could play/record to a click. I guess it's different today.

John

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John....not much has changed.... LOL.... lots of guys cannot play to a click it messes with their mind....those that do have to be admired. It is a bit like patting your head and rubbing your chest at the same time......few can pull it off. I suppose learning how to cope with clicks is all just part of the learning curve and down to experience.
I know a few drummers most are pretty good by anybody's standards but keeping metronome time needed to layer is all but impossible.....love em or hate em clicks are necessary.
Personally singing with or without a click does not bother me either way I still sing out of time regardless.

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It would probably make it easier to lay a simple quantized snare and kick down for the drummer with the click. The drummer may be a little disappointed though when it's removed. grin

John

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I have used click tracks on occasion. One of the (few) things I use Audacity for is generating click tracks.

When I was recording stuff with the Internet band The Collaborators, we used click tracks all the time, to keep people in time. The click tracks were always deleted in the final mix, of course.

I am particularly bad myself at staying in time. i tend to speed up (guess I've played with too many drummers), and a click track tends to get in the way of my doing that. Since I'm after a live feel for nearly everything I record, I don't mess with click tracks. EXCEPT--if I'm sending a piece to someone else, who's going to record something extra to it (or vice versa--if I'm adding something to what someone else did), I will have a short click thing right at the beginning. (And then eliminate it in the rest of the song.)

The clicks help whoever's doing the mixing line things up; if you've got the clicks on every track, it is possible for a tone-deaf person like me to line things up *visually*, without caring what they sound like, and know for sure everything's in the right place.

So they have their uses.

Joe

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Joe what a great explanation.......I could have spoken all day about click tracks and never nailed it like you did....

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Oh yeah, I remember those "live" playing days. The second half of the song always seemed a bit faster in tempo. grin

John smile

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Or you mean the whole song faster with the second half after the guitar solo at breakneck speed...LOL

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I sometimes use a click track when recording guitar/vocal, but it tend to annoy me unless it's a hard song and it's really helping.

Mostly I use drum tracks as a time keeper, though. Way more fun!

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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
Or you mean the whole song faster with the second half after the guitar solo at breakneck speed...LOL


grin Yeah, it wasn't always the drummer's fault. Although we all turned around and stared at the drummer. grin Boy, we were ignorant in those days. grin

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Click tracks are a tool. Use them if and when you need them. I've heard them ruin a track and I've heard them save a track.

If I'm going to use a click, I like to let the drummer hear it, but not the rest of the band. Then we all play to the drummer. That gives us a better "band" feel.

Some folks play well to a click. I'm not too bad at it, it was forced on me in college. Back then we had wind up clicks called "metronomes." On my first recording session as a hired musician, they recorded a metronome and used that "track" for the click...hence, the "click track." We were using four tracks back then. With one for the click, that shows how important the producer thought the click was.

Some folks play well to a drummer. The cymbals, especially the hat, give a "cue" as to when the downbeat will hit. A good drummer may speed up and slow down a little, but it will be gradual, not so abruptly within a measure that it throws the musicians off like a mechanical bull.

But some folks can't play to either a click or a drummer. That's when the recording loses it's groove. When everyone plays to the click, it grooves. When everyone plays to the drummer, it grooves. When everyone plays to their own drummer, it gropes.

The advantage of using time, either in seconds or in measures, as a visual template for a musical wave file, is being able to manipulate the audio or midi. I've had clients who changed their mind as to whether the guitar lead should be in the second or third verse. If we didn't have a click track, the guitar part might not have just "dragged and dropped" from one verse to another. Then the client would have had to pay the guitar player to come back and cut again.


If you have trouble with a click track, double it up. Instead of putting the click on the quarter note, put it on the eighth note. Then it's easier to drop on the beat.

Here's a click trick I used a few years a go. We were recording a female vocalist. The client wanted a real jazzy vocal with very sparse whole note "diamonds" for the piano. The vocalist sounded uninteresting. I had the engineer put a click on that only the vocalist would hear. It was a swing beat. She sang to that and when we played it back without the click, her voice had a "swing" to it. The client loved it.

Clicks are tools. The way we use them can be good or bad.



You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

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-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

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I like using the "Real Drums" format on BIAB. You can select a style, BPM etc. and it will generate the # of bars needed with percussion changes from intro to V to C to Tag. You can even go in and change things you don't like. I only use it as a basic tool to get the idea of how I want it to feel to my studio guru. But it sure beats singing to click click click, at least for me.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost forever.

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Actually, I never use the actual "click"...I replace it with a natural-sounding drum sample that acts as the click.

I really can't play to BEEP! BEEP! BEEP! BEEP!... tongue

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I think that is pretty universal we also use a simple drum pattern as a click. I too would be put off by a beeping electronic metronome. I am always forgetting to disable the clck on Cubase...LOL

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Originally Posted by david Leinweber
I've done some nice stuff using clicks (and our engineer virtually insists on it). However, I also think they tend to limit inuitive tempo changes that a great live-band might have, and they also tend to flatten the playing.

A lot of older recordings have a great feel and sometimes I think they wouldn't have sounded the same with a click-trac.

Also, I keep hearing that click tracks are virtually required by ProTools!!! Is that true?

Comments are so welcome!!!

David


Hi Dave

You got GREAT answers here on the subject.

All I can add is that I eat the click track like PAC MAN!

I ALWAYS use a click track, 98% of the time
I use a hard unmusical sounding clanking click lol it does not phase me, I play with the same feel no matter what. This is because I'm used to it. And my body just wants to groove to anything.

Here are my basic rules

1- I HAVE to use a click when working alone or with individuals ONE at a time. This is often the case. The click is the map,besides if you don't use one your going out of time period.
How that works for you or how you feel about it is up to you.
The point Mike D and the others made about editing is HUGE and dead on. That click allows you take anything from anywhere.

2- I play live drums to a click, and I bring a handful of single one dollar bills into the studio and say "I'll give you a dollar for every time I go out of time and miss a beat" It usually costs me about a buck or two LOL...

But seriously the most important thing a drummer needs is timing.
It's like a clock. I can't tell you how many guys have come in telling me, oh this and that and they twirl there sticks, whip around the drums like lightning, bounce the stick off the snare and catch it.. Then I hit play the click comes in and they melt away like snow on the drum stool. smile

Those are often the same guys who say "I don't like Ringo at all he's nothing"

3- If a band or at least a drummer with a bass player and or one guitar player are tracking and the drummer is NOT comfortable using a click track it's GONE! It's much better to catch a natural right feeling take. Screw the click.

4- Use the drum machine with a simple beat if the click is too sterile to groove to. Then take it away later. Do this when tracking guitar etc.. Even drummers sometimes don't mind playing
along with one at all. It can interfere if it's too busy or he's trying to hear his footwork and the machines bass drum is banging away..

I don't care personally I just ignore it.

As a bass player and guitar player the adjustment to the click was pretty natural and easy. As drums are not my main instrument
adjusting to it with that was the HARDEST and here's why.

With the bass your fingers can make up time and space much easier when you commit to bringing your arm and or hand down on a cracking snare man there's no turning back LOL...

Here's how it goes at the beginning

You use a click

1- You lose all your cool stuff, as you struggle to just focus.
You realize you play out of time. Your fills are gone all your feel is history. You HATE it.

2- You start getting the hang of it but you still hear that loud click, still tentitive but you focus on the steady beat realizing every time you do fills you speed up.You become afraid to leave that snare.
Your moving slow, fast but you get a handle on it.

3- You now start getting some of your cool chops back but there IN TIME now smile this is cool. Your confidence grows but there's still something that's not sitting right. You are right on the beat but haven't developed enough confidence to play on top of it or behind it.

4- You STOP hearing the click! Your like into the second verse when you realize you don't really hear the click anymore.

One night my friend accidentally muted it on the mixing board.
I noticed about half way through the song that it wasn't there.
He said, "great take Mike" I said - "Not bad since there was no click" We checked it I went off in only two small spots.
I got my chops & feel back, can lay back or jump ahead, developed near perfect timing and can have someone send me a guitar only track with a click from anywhere online and i can send back a full live drum track.

Also I use NO programming so it's click and layer tracks live just like years ago.

What really helped my timing was
1- Being in a band for so long with great drummers
2- In the 80's playing & recording with a drum machine alot
3- Hitting the big studio's playing on dance music records
4- Just recording all the time


Thanks!
Peace Mike
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Mike and all,

Hey, thanks for all the great replies on my question. I've used click tracks pretty succesffully myself, but as an old-school rock and country guy, I still think there were jams in the old days that had feels and tempo changes a click track would ruin. I'm not sure that Tumblin' Dice or Midnight Rambler would be the same with a click track driving the tempo, but maybe I'm just wrong. I do agree that for a lot of commercial and/or protools recording projects, the click track seems essential.

Thanks for all the great inputs!!!

David Leinweber


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Hey gang, I am a little late chiming in on this one, but better late than never.

Anyway, I blame Mike Caro for addicting me to the click track. Everything he has said above is true and more. When i came into his studio to record and heard the click in my ear, I became a lost puppy. But, I did not rebel against this disturbing machine, I embraced it. And somehow, he knew I would. I swear he's psychic.

I bought a stereo metro for only me to hear and introduced it to the whole band. My, my, did it straighten a lot of rhythm problems out and make the band much tighter. Mainly, because of my improved sense of timing.

I quickly got used to the sound of a click in my ear and found myself not even listening to it but right on the groove. When I did not use the click and it was off, I still heard it in my head and realized my sense of timing had become the click.

When there is a timing problem in a segment of a song it is either the drummer first, then the other musicians. I have found musicians way off the groove and I ask them to play behind the drums during that segment. They are amazed at how much time they have all of a sudden to go from one note to the other with long holes in between. Suddenly playing has become easy allowing for more intense dynamics and feel to the song.

I have brainwashed my band through the use of a solo click track in my ear only. And now, I have become their click track. It allows me to spot timing problems instantly and save time from playing the same part wrong, over and over again.

I test the band after the same song has been clicked for awhile. The transition from verse to chorus, bridge and back to verse again has become smooth and effortless without the use of a click track.

And that is the glory of using a click track. Once you get used to it, the clicking goes way into the background where it belongs and it becomes nothing more than an aid, like a sustain pedal or a wawa box or a cow bell. Using a click track is like learning how to play an instrument. It takes time and practice to get used to it and then it starts to become natural.


John Marnie: Drummer and singer in
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http://www.TooLittleTime.net
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I favor the emotiveness of of going by hand with all the instruments, even though I am no steady eddy.

I played around a lot with manufactured samples with the synths being my primary instrument before I was on the internet.
I know there are many made for hire performers that do samples.
I would prefer something played in to my recordings.

Live threads and instrument and voice music seems to be almost an alien concept on the internet now.

Didn't seem that way when I was first on internet sites in 2004.

A click track may be good to get something started to lead off a song.
But I prefer the realness of going without them.

Good topic!

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Matt you need a ref point when multi recording....that is why people use clicks. Hard to punch anything in on the beat without one. Most guys I know could not record properly without one. They are all seasoned pros with great timing....so it should tell you something.

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My recordings are layered. I use the click and do find it awfully annoying. But I have a system now that works for me quite well. The material I do is acoustic country so when I do banjo, it can very easy to miss a beat at high speeds. So what I do now is to have the click on for track number one which is always a ghost track. On that track, I record a vocal and guitar, but the guitar only does the 4 beat downstrokes-no strum, and only the down beat. It serves as a "master track" and contains the correct beat, after which the original clicker is turned off. Then the initial layered track (bass or guit usually) plays to the ghost track. In a way it's really a substutute for a pure click track, but it's softer and more subtle. I have found you do play more like freeform when lining up with an instrument, even if it's just thump thump. It's subtle but you can really get into it more and the final product doesn't sound like a robot. For what it's worth....

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When I do anything on my .wav software or Audacity I have often looked at the screen to pinpoint the start or put in a small noise just milliseconds in front of the track and then delete it out.
I often like playing the overdubs all the way through a song.
But some arrangements can be trickier then others.

It gets too stiff and mechanical sometimes with click tracks because it gets too rehearsed.
And there does need to be that reference point.
I like to play behind a rythmn often too so there is not so much tightness.
Most like to be ahead in the count or right on it.

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Hi Paul A click track does not have to be an actual click or electronic beep we use simple drum tracks GENERATED from the PC. It sounds just like drums but keeps perfect time. These are then replaced with a proper drum track if need be or enhanced to a proper full generated drum track with all the fills etc.

Hi Matt you keep referring to a .wav file as if it is something special or different from other files. A wav is just an uncompressed digital sound file. All Windows compatable music software creates wav files. Here is a link to explain exactly what it is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAV

As stated earlier a click is designed as a ref point...does not mean you have to sound mechanical or robotic it just makes sure you are in time with the song. Modern studios record piecemeal and snippets are cut from several takes so the best bits can be strung together to form a track. It saves time waiting for that perfect performance which might not come till take 19. Without a click the timing to splice these together would be off and it would be impossible to cut and dice accurately. The parts would never match.

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I use a clicker when just playing my old upright piano, or guitar, at home! Doing that mainly keeps me grounded in not having rushed transitions. That allows for a more relaxed playing experience, no matter the pace of the song.

Also, by doing that, it allowed me to record a two instrument song at Sub's, (just piano and strings) without using a click track, so I would not even have it in the background. The emotional song I wrote flowed along as I wanted it to.

I just didn't want to hear anything but the piano for that song on it's start of the tracks. Some ebb and flow would be fine, as I'm sure it wasn't in perfect time, although Mike said it was. (Being nice, Mike?) But, if right on, or very close for that type of song, the good timing wouldn't have happened if I didn't always practice that song and all others with the clicker on, on the music desk of the piano.

For all other songs, we used a click track!

And yes! Marnie has our band drilled to stay with him, or even a hair back on spots. He mentions Sub often, and is always messing with the click, for trying some songs up or down a BMP or two. Finding the pocket for songs is critical in how they are felt by us, then of course, by any listeners.

THANKS SUB! Band Tightness, with more feeling, has become easier to realize with Marnie on the click, and us with him. He's our Giant Clicker!

John


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Un-protected sex with a stranger
Running with scissors
Getting in the ring with Mike Tyson
Not using a click track

They’re all about the same.

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No Jim, I state what I state. Including references.
I was stating visualizing the track on the graph over a click track.
But I like the old fasioned standard 1-2-3-4 - boom bam, smash, bannnng! too every now and again.
Especially with something hard or up-tempo.

But just about everyone has done the first 2 things that above posts states.
Especially in this day and age.
But the musicians still like to line up their tracks straight - LOL.





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I don't think so, Iggy. I'd never do #2 or #3, but I sure would think about #1. It'd depend a lot on the stranger.

I have not used a click track since Time immemorial, except for the situations noted way, way up above. For live performance, and for anything that's going to *sound* like a live performance, I have a work-around. We used it in the band's first two recordings for the album, too.

Rather than doing the "one, two, three, four" count-in to starting a song (which we tried, but couldn't get right), I just do a few bars lead-in--just the solo rhythm guitar; it's something I've done for years, to set the tempo right for myself. The band comes in on the first downbeat, and it's usually perfect.

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Joe, that's the way bluegrassers count in a song. You never hear someone saying, "one two three," instead a fiddle will play "nick nick near", a banjo will play a few "potatoes" or fiddle will play "son-of-a-gun I'm tired." and everyone is in.



You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
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You mean we're, like, normal? The band will never believe that...

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Originally Posted by John Daubert


THANKS SUB! Band Tightness, with more feeling, has become easier to realize with Marnie on the click, and us with him. He's our Giant Clicker!

John


Your very welcome John! Good to see you here Iggy been praying for you alot... John D you have great timing period..

Yes somebody has to suffer for the sake of the others,why not let it be the drummer, who's #1 priority for existing is too KEEP TIME. Marnie is a natural, but even more impressive than that was his attitude and his enthusiasm. Not a single excuse
a pleasure to work with and a nice guy! Remember also he broke a very long time habit, he could have had more excuses than most..

Matt - Remember one of the very first things I mentioned regarding your tunes? tick-tock-tick-tock smile

You want to put the cart in front of the horse my friend.
Develop solid timing, then don't think or worry much about timing anymore. No talking or discussions about it.. It's what musicians do smile



Thanks!
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Thanks Mike for your words of wisdom.

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This is all great info.

Yes, the drummer's the "time boss." The cymbals are the clock. Now, in bluegrass, the banjo is the clock, the upright bass is like the kick drum, and the mandolin is like the snare. They all depend on the clock to tell them where to come in. Sometimes when the whole band is listening to a click it just doesn't groove like it should...now, I said sometimes...with a good team it doesn't matter. But it happens often enough that most full band sessions I've played have the click going only to the drummer.

Some years back I was hired to be musical director on an album project...whatever that means, Ha. I guess what it was supposed to mean was that the producers (two producers...hmmmm...all chiefs...maybe they should have had a vice president of guitars) anyway, the producers weren't really musicians, so they needed someone to interpret to the pickers. Of course, they, being from Boston, spent a few days in Nashville finding the musicians. They went out to the bars and collected a band. I, being the bass player as well as the music director ( smile ) was allowed to pick the drummer. The producers in their wisdom put up a click track for everyone to hear. After a few takes we listened back. The track sucked. The nervous producers started blaming me for choosing such a poor drummer. I told the engineer to solo the drums and bass. It grooved like a steam locomotive. It was obvious to the producers. I tactfully told them that it might have been their musicians who couldn't find a beat if they were making love with Tina Turner. So they let me have my way. I chased the musicians out and the drummer and I cut all the songs, then we brought their guys in and built them onto the tracks. That project got a "number one add" in Cashbox and still, nearly twenty years later, sells for the artist.

But the old clicks had serious limitations. Today's clicks can be programmed to change. High end ones can "morph" and accelerate or decelerate. You can stop the click and bring it back in at a different tempo. We could have used those features years ago, back then we had to use a conductor (which symphony orchestras still use) to be fluid with the tempo. Being fluid with the tempo is something that, like dynamics, is practically gone from popular music. Remember "Those Were the Days?" It broke tempo, accelerated, it was exquisite. You couldn't do that with an old "locked in" click. We ran afoul of that at a session some years back.

We were playing a demo session at the long gone Willow Wind studios. The piano player on the session was the late Larry Knechtel, a lovely guy. Larry won a grammy for playing on "Bridge Over Troubled Waters." He was part of the Wrecking Crew and a member of Bread. Larry could play the piano so good the elephants were ashamed of their poor quality of ivory. Anyway, we had a songwriter who wanted her song to stop at the end, come back in at a different tempo, then speed up for a while, then ritard to a halt and finally finish with a short, quick measure and a sudden stop. The drummer was using a click. The way the studio was set up, we couldn't see the drummer. The producer spent his time on the phone, trying to get more gigs LOL. After about six or seven botched takes, the songwriter started saying she thought we were supposed to be some high class studio pickers, but we could hardly play. I was afraid Larry would throw the acoustic piano at her. smile I explained to her that she was getting a low budget demo and for what she wanted she would need to have a conductor or be in a studio set up so the drummer, or someone, could conduct. We took a break while she played us that passage on the guitar about a dozen times...each one played differently...and finally went back and felt our way through a take. Now, of course we could have gotten it quickly with a conductor, or today we could have a programmed click to bring us in at tempo.

Mike, you are so right. Session players don't talk about this stuff at all, they just play. A good team can use a click in the mix or just give it to the drummer and it makes no difference. Most drummers here bring their own click to the session and feed the monitor send into a mixer so they can mix their own click as they like. Sometimes a producer will have them send that click to everyone else, that is rare, but when it happens, no one says anything about it. Sometimes a producer doesn't want a click at all (and sometimes when that happens, the drummer doesn't say anything smile ). We just play, and the drummer is the time boss.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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Mike D

Great great stories Loved it.

Yes it can go any way the session needs to go regarding the click.

The biggie is, the way I often work is alone (unfortunate) smile but also working separately from each other is a HUGE reason to use the click.

A guy has his song down, he is alone and he wants to start recording it. He picks up his guitar and plays it. He doesn't use a click. Now a few days later he starts bringing in the other players one at at time. Guess what? smile Your moving so now there moving too, and the drummer is having a hard time committing himself with the uncertainty.

As of recent years drums have been the last thing recorded on many of my own songs. On most of my songs I use another drummer, Can't wait for people so you start tracking.

I know I don't need to hear drums when I'm tracking pretty much anything, so we lay off the whole song except perhaps maybe the vocal may be a guide vocal. But I do need that click.

When the drummer comes he's thrilled, he hears the whole band practically but no one is there, and all focus is given to him and his parts. Why would i want to have to communicate with 4 other guys and spread the focus and time. This allows me to have the drummer do his ideas and mine as well. I can watch him and listen and i don't have to play anything. even do 2 takes so I can choose the best cuts for later.

Now if I have bassist or acoustic guitarists or keyboard player etc.. who say "I can't do this really right unless the drums are there." That's not gonna be to productive.

And emailing tracks etc... is a mess sometimes.

The click is not only to keep time it's like a map. The path of the song so we can follow. And it's great when the drummer is the only one listening to the click, and he doesn't let any one pull him.

The first thing I do 98% of the time is play acoustic all alone
to a click track, and a harsh one too lol. No guide vocal or anyone else.

You work whichever way is needed for the moment. Like Mike D says have it together yourself and it won't matter which way it goes, you'll be fine.



Thanks!
Peace Mike
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Mike:

Yes! Solid timing.

I have loads of tracks with manufactured samples that do that.
On the net that is 1,000 times easier.
No need to even pick up the instrument.

My way of seeing it is there are a lot of crafty musicians that have that click way of doing things, whether it be with a track or in general.
Then there are those that move in their own way.
May not fit in to a box or would fit in to a musicians click, yet the typical listener (non musician) digs it.

Some do not have the skill for the life of them to play a chord, yet have a lot of artistic drive.

That does'nt mean do not try and have form.
I would not be here relying on my hands with the instruments and thoughts for that to be crucified and picked apart if I did'nt believe in some type of form.

But from what I have experienced, that has more to do with what musicians clicks like, not listeners in general.

I don't have the gene for technique, but for me it is zero sum.
I am not going to learn anything period relying on imitation or gadgetry.

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Originally Posted by mattbanx
Mike:

Yes! Solid timing.

I have loads of tracks with manufactured samples that do that.
On the net that is 1,000 times easier.
No need to even pick up the instrument.

My way of seeing it is there are a lot of crafty musicians that have that click way of doing things, whether it be with a track or in general.
Then there are those that move in their own way.
May not fit in to a box or would fit in to a musicians click, yet the typical listener (non musician) digs it.

Some do not have the skill for the life of them to play a chord, yet have a lot of artistic drive.

That does'nt mean do not try and have form.
I would not be here relying on my hands with the instruments and thoughts for that to be crucified and picked apart if I did'nt believe in some type of form.

But from what I have experienced, that has more to do with what musicians clicks like, not listeners in general.

I don't have the gene for technique, but for me it is zero sum.
I am not going to learn anything period relying on imitation or gadgetry.


Matt

Those samples aren't gonna help your timing really.

But we may be on the wrong page. smile I don't really understand your reply lol but that has happened before.
YOU play with your hands live correct? Your body including your hands have obvious timing difficulties.

When you have decent timing you usually have it on EVERYTHING you touch. Just like when your a very MUSICAL person it applies to everything you touch. Sometimes the instrument is not easy for us too play so we struggle or can't execute well etc..

But when we play that instrument even very simply we play in time first. Time is HALF of music. Melody/Meter

There is no other way too see it really. smile

Anybody who plays who doesn't develop decent timing never sounds very good. Then he or she can't play with others in a band.
The only bands they land in are ones with others who don't do it either and never complain about it to the others smile This way the problem of not sounding good never arises. smile

If your gonna use your fingers to play drums like a drum machine on a keyboard, play to a click or better yet program the beats exactly as you like. This way the bass line you lay down next will not be swimming all around.

We can sing with bad timing to, in infects everything once it starts..

If your in a 70's like punk rock band none of this applies. smile
Your bandmates and your fans don't know it or care! smile Now there's a sweet gig..


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Peace Mike
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Anyone other then a poser ought to be able to say someting without saying how "they would not make it" if they already have announced they are set on themselves with what they do.
I am obviously not out to be someone's prodigy here.

That aside, you have managed to give me some valid feedback Mike.

Of course I am serious about how to do it.

That does'nt mean I am going to fall back on a way just because the click might think more of it.

I know this topic is about click tracks.

But you tend to over generalize.

You can state something is black up and down and someone else will see white, especially with expression.

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Matt a couple of points....Never be set in your ways.....otherwise we are back to being cavemen. We evolve and so do our techniques......You have timing issues...it can be heard in your tracks.....I play with people who do not have timing issues YET they prefer to use click tracks....They do it for valid reasons as explained in previous posts. If you have not been in a pro studio and seen the process then you cannot really comment...but should instead listen to those who have. I suggest re reading ALL the previous posts. It might be an education into why most if not all people of a pro standard use clicks. It might also interest you to know that the people you hail as greats also use elctronic click tracks plus all the other gizmos you seem to dislike.

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Okay Jim!

I guess I came here to learn things here to be a caveman.

But I have already slogged my stuff out for the consensus.

I know after so much time and consensus now what I want to do.
And to physically carry out what was in my mind.
But I know I am looked upon as inferior here (noted example, unasked, and out of the MP3 forum statements by Mike).
I have never done that myself.
All I have to say is, I heard it a million times already, musically and words in post.
That is not what I came here for.

Even if my interpretation of the forms is off, I would rather say it was mine.
If you can not understand what I am saying Mike, it is because I never anticipated explaining this.
If this was called a Studio 54 Site Mike and Jim, then I would have known ahead of time what to put up.

The performers where I live do not play in to computers and use software.

I like the emotivevess of playing, yet I always looked at clubs and the net as different.

But all I can say for now is that if what I have done now in my link in the sig is not considered an improvement to the members here, then nothing else I do will be.
Unless I want to de-evolve and rely on other means so my spin or "lack of" is not honestly judged.
Which will not happen.

I at least want that musicians to judge for themselves, however they may judge the validity.
I have a set of songs that I would like to play in.

If that is mot good enough, that is too pretentious for me and defeats the purpose of having the expression.

But oh well.

I know there are members here that mean well.

Wish you all Peace!


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Matt we are only trying to help. I doubt very much that ALL the musicians where you live do not use computers or embrace technology or modern aids to help them improve. If they do not then they do not know much about music recording or music production. It is a bit like saying that you play a Casio organ but do not like digital music. When I said cavemen I meant blindly refusing to accept new ideas and technology. You use words like Live and Emotive. I know lots of musicians and engineers and other music people ALL of them can be called emotive and most can put in a pretty good live performance in a very wide spectrum of genres and styles. Just about everyone who records anything to a decent standard embrace the modern tools available. It in no way stymies a good performance or is a cop out or holds back a free-form production or makes a performance sound robotic....it actually enhances it.
You are not seen as inferior just someone very inexperienced who is learning in leaps and bounds but holding themselves back through not listening to advice and holding silly notions about not wanting to use technology or learn the basics a-z that everyone should learn.
I did listen to your song......the one you wanted me to....It is a definite improvement.....but your timing in most places is way way off and makes it sound jerky out of sync and amateurish.....a click track would improve your performance....... greatly.
If you can hear that you are playing out of time then you need to re record it. Easy fix.
If you cannot hear the places you are way off then you need a click to help keep you in time. That is why we use them.

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Iggy..you can take Iron Mike, no problem. The running with scissors....not so sure about that one. OUCH!

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Good answer Jim and to the point.
I am experienced in my own way but eternally a bad player.
Even where I figured I took the steps for that.

I have been looking at different tempos and seeing how they work together.

I like seeing how much I can do to see what falls in.

But I have to feel it.
Maybe no one else will hear it.
But I am really taking things at the level I feel good with.

I can learn a lot of nothing sitting on my limitations.

It is like a hard math I can not learn.
What can be done to find the closest estimate and feel true to myself.

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Matt

Anyone other then a poser ought to be able to say someting without saying how "they would not make it" if they already have announced they are set on themselves with what they do.
I am obviously not out to be someone's prodigy here.


Not sure I understand any of that smile All I know is one day I'm in a completely click free session, the next day it's click on, I ALWAYS play live when recording even the drum set. So i understand all about live expression.

What Jim said was very on the money, I am talking more in general but did not start my first reply to you that way. I said "you" had timing issues. I already have explained in the past in detail what you could try to do. smile

What your doing from what I can see, and what I have seen many times before with others, is making excuses. It's cool that you see and understand you have timing issues. But instead of doing something about it you talk about other things and drift way off the subject smile

Some guys come here to the studio and they "talk all about music" They KNOW alot.. Then when it comes time to record and work, they struggle badly and then do even more talking about all kinds of things accept that they ain't nailing there part!

"I usually use these kinds of strings but" "I play the drums in perfect time with my band but now" "I sing great at gig's people love it so how can i be out of key"

Music is very expressive and we can see & hear things from different points of view, but playing out of tune, being out of time, singing out of key, forcing bad rhymes, etc.. and other things aren't things that help you professionally in the field of music. Unless it's specific and accpted to a genre or some scene.

If you are making music for your own self enjoyment then that is great. And focusing on anything but fun and expression is a waste of time and a downer.

People play softball sometimes and do that. But when a professional or semi pro or even a kid who's decent at little league steps into the batters box he DEVELOPS timing.
Other wise he can't hit the ball. No fun in that smile

I have often found many others to generalize and see things one way, where I am ALWAYS bringing up several aspects. So much so that it hurts me professionally and in life in general.



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If I were out to make excusesa in the first place Mike, I would not rely on my hands.

But you have obvious things that members find of use here.

You shared a sample of your rythmns when I fist got here.

My point is is that I already knew what "I" wanted to do when I came at this site.

And I took the time of getting a consensus studying the different types of music I like.

I am not out to do anything commercial, but some do not sway to another's groove, even if that other may be technically proficient in their own way.

Since I never made any pretenses or have tried to be a forum darling here, that says more for my personal integrity with it.

If you find that to be an excuse, then you just will not take me seriously, despite my efforts.
I have been nothing but honest about it.

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If I were out to make excusesa in the first place Mike, I would not rely on my hands.

I don't understand that statement at all, and what would you rely on if you were? smile

Anyhow like I mentioned if your doing it for yourself for fun, then what I explained is completely irrelevant.
Many and most people here and elsewhere when they like to do something a lot,like to improve. I am CONSTANTLY that way.

This reminds of something like:

Someone saying "I like to play guitar. I play guitar at home a lot alone by myself. I spend a good amount of time doing it, and I bought a nice guitar.
Now please DON"T show me that cool thing you just played!" smile

Even if they don't ever really further themselves with it, they usually want too in there hearts or back of there minds.
They say it, and usually often mean it.

They don't want there strings too mute & buzz when they play chords and may or may not work on that. But they don't discuss it like it's an option and part of there form of art or expression. That's an excuse or lack of really caring about what they are doing. In plain words "I'm just not that into it to sit down and practice something that takes practice and I do not do completely naturally" But even that is understandable too me smile

Technically proficient? Well I am untaught and untrained and unschooled in every single aspect of music. From the neck all the way to the wires behind my console.
I'm very un-technical. But nobody so far who was ever told me I needed to be.

There's only one way to be proficient and that is by being proficient best you can in whatever you do. If you play the drums in any manner what so ever and don't have timing you are an in-proficient drummer -or- just a person trying to play drums.

And that is completely fine by me, as long as your not my drummer! smile

What I do find your method very useful for is when I want to throw down an idea very quickly and bring it to the band etc..

That's all I'm done here smile Hopefully lol


Thanks!
Peace Mike
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Originally Posted by mattbanx
You can state something is black up and down and someone else will see white, especially with expression.


Matt, and anyone esle:

THAT is exactly why being in time and knowing you are in time works, (with the aid of a clicker). FOR, the very reason of being able, (by artistic expression) to NOT RUSH any fill or transition chord. Most players who don't have good timing rush some of their playing, which tends to have other things sound if they are late arriving to the party! That is not artistic at all. It's just plain careless and sloppy, to be honest.

With a click, (at any time of practicing or whatever), the pocket and feel of a song and all it's playing become VERY expressive, and very nice to listen to by any listener who of course won't hear the click that was laid down or in your ear.

Imagine 1/8 notes needing to be played by the drummer on some fill, or 1/8, or 1/16 note guitar riffs, for example. IF NOT in time, one of those players will most likely get to the finish line too fast, and mess up the FEEL. When a click is present to have as a subconscious aid, (after time getting used to it), there is a world of time to complete any riff, no matter how many notes!

Or better example yet,,,,when there are very few notes to play in one measure. One can then purposely play n the back end of the beat, (a hair),,,not sounding off,,,but feeling really soulful and nice! THAT is done by knowing where the time is. Jumping all around with all the instruments, with so many parts out of wack does not make for artistic expression. It only show a lack of skill for playing music in a good pocket, with having some educated or feeling leeway that makes for a great feel. IT ALL comes much easier and more musician like with the clicker.

The other way to look at it is to ignore timing. Music is timing. Drums and bass are what people can lock onto to when in good timing.(The primal feel of music). The players then stay with the drummer, (their click), not rushing ahead and not leaving the bass drum or snare all to its lonesome,,, and with that, results in a good sounding tight band that feels good to the listeners.

Really, when playing with a drummer, the main thing to listen to is the hit hat, (that will give you the 1/8 notes most of the time, to which then those gaps in between beats are nicely laid out to play "WITH". No need to strain to heaer the bass drum. The Hi hat will let you know when that will be on the downbeat. Same for any upneats!

It just makes playing that much more expressive, to relax in that nice timing already done for everyone,,,through the drums using the click!

When just playing my piano at home,,,,I set the click to whatevr song I'm about to play. Then I just FEEL the music and flow right along,,,,confident I won't be ending a slow song as a medium tempo one, or a fast song ending in a too fast pace,,,Rushing is always what seems to happens by nature.

Think about it this way too: Time in life seems to go by faster, even with a clock set in perfect seconds! So, without speeding up a song, as one might feel a need to do,,,,,it will already be fast enough at the end if sticking to the clock!

Always play with a clicker,,for anything,,practice,,,,writing a song even, to get that right pocket feel, which could then lead to even more expressive ideas,,,,for the player has all the good time in the world!

There's a reason Marnie, Iggy, Roon, Doc and I are excited about playing the songs more than when Marnie hadn't met Sub yet.

FEELING is a by product of the click,,,,,not an enemy. Once any player experiences that when playing ALL the time with one, it's even there when not able to have one on, like at some party or at some place to play solo, etc. You'll soon feel your good timing habits of the click caring over into those impromptu playing!

John



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John,

I'm a big fan of learning to play with a click. I'm also a big fan of learning to play with a drummer or another musician who makes the time "breathe," as we say in the local studios.

You say "FEELING is a by product of the click" but I say the click is a by product of feeling. It all started with heartbeat which is not even. It is affected by gravity and "swing" literally. A Strauss waltz was never meant to be played in strict time, it would lose that swing at the beginning of a phrase. Even in strict time music, if the players all played dead on the beat, you wouldn't have had Motown or Memphis. The drummer can play the snare a little ahead or behind for amazingly good results.

Years back, I co-produced a session for Richard Dobson. The drummer was Richie Albright, drummer for Waylon Jennings and the Waylors, as well as producer for George Jones and others. I was new to playing session bass, more used to playing rhythm guitar, but I could hold dead steady to a metronome. On the first day of the session, in my naievity, I complained that Richie's time was drifting in the Texas waltzes. Man, was I ever wrong. Older, wiser heads took me aside and let me know that I should play Richie's time instead of mine. I listened, and dropped the bass a red pubic hair behind Richie's foot. Richie's drums swung and danced, they sparkled. The project got a "recommended pick" from Billboard. I looked like a genius instead of a green kid who almost ruined the project by bringing in a click. After that, I made it a mission to learn the genres. Texas waltzes aren't in strict time.

I was a click Nazi.

Now, of course, for anyone wanting to play music at its highest level, they should learn how to play to a click. They should also learn how to play to a conductor, and a drummer whose time is "breathing," and to a banjo player who is, correctly so, accelerating. It's the old "color between the lines" argument. Amateurs will argue that you not bother with coloring between the lines, they will also argue that you should always color between the lines. Pros just color away and make it look good. Well, that's the way it is with music. Make it sound good...but the key word is "make." If Matt has the happy accident of being able to make music that sounds good even if the time "breathes," then fine, as long as breathing-time music is all he ever aspires to play. If, however, his music just doesn't "get it" with loose time, then he needs to loosen up his insistence on eschewing the click. I haven't listened to his new stuff, so I can't comment. He may be doing just fine for what he wants or needs...or he may not. I wonder what his team says?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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Yes! I even said such a thing as being a hair behind: "One can then purposely play n the back end of the beat, (a hair),,,not sounding off,,,but feeling really soulful and nice! THAT is done by knowing where the time is".

By you knowing a click method, you then just had ot adjust to what the drummer was doing for that style. Knowing leads to adjusting! Probably was fast for you to adjust, already knowing the timing rules,,,,then could understand how to break them!

Cool story there Mike! Great points too.

Will adjust myself just a hair,,,(Not a ,,,,Oh never mind)!!

John


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Interesting stuff.....BUT so as to not confuse the issue if you cannot follow a simple tempo, beat or rhythm then you need to use something to help you. It does not matter if you try to play on, in front of or behind the beat if you do not know where the beat is in the first place or are unable to follow a beat pattern in your head for any length of time you are lost.


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Aha, John, but not everyone has the same interpretation.

There are a number of musicians that the clicks here may not find professional at all that many listeners like.

And I never stated there is no need for a clicker.
It is that too often many musicians try to be so perfect that all feeling and emotiveness gets lost.



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The click or use of a metronome is not the secret of "life"

First and foremost it's an aid,when your timing is not good or when your learning MUSIC it teaches you and helps you.

That is why you saw those large triangle metronomes on top of pianos and students practicing there piano with them since who knows when.

Playing with a click or working on proper techniques will not make you sterile sounding and emotionless.

If someone has no musical groove or soul so to speak it's got nothing to do with a metronome. smile

George Benson & Carlos Santana play with tremendous feeling and emotion and I'd bet my life they can play to a metronome.

It's just seems an excuse not a perception.

Cause here's the deal and bottom line, when you play live and jam you DON"T use the click track. Recording with the click has it's big importance, practicing with it has it's big importance..
Which all leads to ONE important thing.


Being able to play without it........
And nobody ever bringing it up when they hear you. See? smile


Thanks!
Peace Mike
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David...

I was pretty fortunate to be around a pretty fair drummer when I was young and whom I admired greatly.A great composer and musician as well...these guys IMHO were consummate pro's....recorded under the American Grammaphone label...he had a fine keyboard player by the name of Jackson Berkey if I recall correctly...their stuff was always so crisply produced and always sounded heads and shoulders above many others of that time...and still on a vinyl LP..lol.
His name is Chip Davis of Mannheim Steamroller...If you don't know of them I would wager you have heard some of their music..especially around this time of year...And YES always used a clicktrack as I understand....
Kind of an ebb and flow thing...Oh you are gonna nail it occassionally but not for long...it's only a matter of time...and yes I apologize for the pun (a wee bit)..lol.

Jim and others said it well...

Larry


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My long term goal to begin with was to do musical pieces and have gone to places such as film sites.
Also so musicians can better determine what instrument they think I am better on for a full set of songs.

I would not be ignorant to such tools as a click track with those professionally intended songs.
Even now I snap my fingers to imitate a drummer at the beginning of a show slapping their drum sticks when I do a track.

I just don't want to rely on click tracks through an entire duration of a song so my playing will be that much sharper.
It sure has not hurt with the smaller, easier structures.

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Originally Posted by mattbanx

It is that too often many musicians try to be so perfect that all feeling and emotiveness gets lost.


That usually comes with the beginning stages of learning HOW to play with a click. I hear mine,,,"I think",,but mainly, I feel the timing and then express away like there;s no tomorrow. I didn;t do that in the early stages. It was probably emotionless, as you say. Just need to do it often enough to where the emotion and epressions are fully there,,,,but in time!

Then, wen playing with a drummer that may want to surge here and there,,,,the good sense ofo sticking with the clicker has us sticking to the drummer, no matter what. With out drummer, Marnie will sometimes not use the click and experiment with stepping up the chorus one click,,from his now good sense of timing, from knowing the steady click in the first place through much time on it beforehand.

So,,,it is mostly with not using the click enough that leads to not playing with emotion with one. They just should play with all the time! Ha!!!

Thanks Matt! Good to talk with ya,
John


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I used nothing but clickers and borrowed samples with the first instrument I started with.
Many of the musicians I grew up with did metal and punk.

What I played on the synth was an offshoot of the same form, from PIL to Tubeway Alley.

None of the performers that I saw had a click guiding them all the way through a set.

I saw this as a no nonsense performers site.

Maybe I have a complex from how I started or do not take responses the way I should.

I just try to go with what I can assess will not make me any worse with my song ideas.

My recordings are bass dominant, which also serves in the rythmn section, as well as the maim melody or hook.
I have to push myself harder to do anything beyond a 4/4 rythmn if I want to keep better time.

The playing may never be spot on, but at least tighter.

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The performers you saw and grew up with probably had a fairly decent sense of rhythm. If you have not got a good sense of timing then you need something to keep you from straying off the basic beat. Listening to your songs I can say that you either have a poor sense of timing or you do not have the recording and editing skills to edit seamlessly. IMO probably a bit of both. Your songs all have a very simple beat but even following that is proving very difficut for you. That is why a click track is essential to help you follow your own beat. You seem to want to experiment but refuse to lear the basics first. Before people can experiment, improv or elaborate on something they need to be able to play the basics.

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Good enough, I went with what I was inspired with and pulled it out of my head and figured it to be an improvement.
So be it.
My main point about it was not trying to be Brahms or flunking in class with basic fundamentalists, it was about what better holds my accuracy with whatever you make of it.

There are people that can not touch their nose with the tip of their finger sober and I'm one of them.

Maybe I should try some simple instrument and voice tracks with occasional covers.

But thanks for the take.

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Matt your failure to embrace conventional ways of performing and recording does you no favours. You also seem incapable of listening to well meant advice and constructive criticism from people with experience and talent. This attitude will hold you back and stymy any talent you already have. Clever people will at least try different things and alternative ways before labelling them as not for me.

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I don't get in to the musician's mindset.
It gets too much in to the ego bruising, highs and lows.
I just wanted to kick out something that reflects me for my love of music.

Instead of being a "real musician" I guess I just want my expression with some structure.

But I would reserve this site maybe if I were out to try one area at a time.
Because there are certain influences I would like to learn with the members for that.

This was a great topic.
It really brought a sense of closure.

Happy Holidays!


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I've never been in a studio where a click track wasn't used, even initally, when track laying. It's exceptionally important, especially in these days of digital audio edits, to be able to tranfer one passage to another point in a song, or create an "overture" without timing issues. No-one I've ever met will play an entire song at the same tempo all the way through.

If you want to make the whole production process difficult, then don't start with a click track. You'll wish you did in the end.

cheers, niteshift

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I begin to believe that maybe I don't understand the basic concept of these click tracks and forms.
Nite and others here seem to be able to bring themselves in to their recordings using them.

I have a mound of synths and have relied on what is electronic and not touched by human hands before the internet.
But there are definitely good arguments here for how click tracks also do not stink.

I can not do a straight line on a 4 beat but still believe that the metered enviroment is not a valid tract on performance.
I looked at it like building endurance riding a bike up a hill, but there also needs to be a direction.
But then there is the recorded presentation.

I thought I was doing conventional pop with my 2 new recordings.
Though there is what people hear on the listening end as well as doing something for myself.

I do not dismiss any of the talents here. But I knew members here were already not crazy with the brand of music I prefer.

I am attempting different rythmns and clickers and have re-investigated this subject.

It is not so much of what stinks as much as what can better one's delivery.

The only question I have to the initial poster, is that if the performance is considered good enough to begin with, then more trust should be given without that big click track.

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Click tracks work for some situations and not for others, like folks here said.

The first time I went in to the studio to do a promo, I naively prepared the rhythm guitar part without a click track, not having ever done any one step at a time multi-track recording.
I had the part nailed, but the click track screwed me up. I actually asked if there was something wrong with the computer. The engineer, who's a good friend of mine now, almost busted a gut laughing.
Anyway, it prompted me to make a study of tempo -- not just playing to click tracks, but listening to recordings, illegally playing a shaker to music in the car, walking in rhythm, so to speak, learning a little drums....

Now I can play with click tracks if need be, and my tempo skills are light years better when there isn't one around. I listen better, all those good things.

You can learn to play expressively with a click track or metronome. Once you do, your understanding of groove will surprise you.

On the practical side, if you think the click track makes your playing flat -- play a scratch take to the click track and then play the keeper track to the scratch track. It might be easier to be "expressive," but in time with another guitar backing you.


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Originally Posted by david Leinweber
I've done some nice stuff using clicks (and our engineer virtually insists on it). However, I also think they tend to limit inuitive tempo changes that a great live-band might have, and they also tend to flatten the playing.


David


Matt posed this question to the original poster

"The only question I have to the initial poster, is that if the performance is considered good enough to begin with, then more trust should be given without that big click track."


A GREAT LIVE BAND, so yeah why bother with the click.... otherwise what performance was or is considered good enough to begin with?

And with a GREAT live band comes a must have great drummer. And still just maybe he is in the studio and says to the engineer,
"Give me the click in my phones only" the rest will play off me"
Besides great drummers play in great time in groove with NO click. Why? because they spent more hours than you can imagine practicing and playing with one.. that's why. smile

If I'm not mistaken Matt plays alone, and mostly without programming or use of drum machine/loops etc...
So perhaps he hits the record button and then beings to play.

The first track whatever instrument it is is going to be out of time accept from the perspective of "In time to itself"
That's wonderful, but now the next track played over it is going to be off period, in trying to stay with the other track, hence a poor performance which is the number one thing to kill a recording.

This whole click track thing is not just a question of preference. It is all depending on WHAT your doing and how you are going about doing it.

Timing is part of music no matter how much we would like to ignore it, or whatever trouble arrives from it.
You do what is needed for the task at hand.

The CLICK track is only an issue when TIMING is an issue.


Joyboy - great post...




Thanks!
Peace Mike
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Why do orchestras need a conductor?....Same reason why studios use clicks. I am sure those guys can keep pretty good time but they still need someone to sync everythig up. BTW it does not have to be an electronic click it can be a simple looped drum pattern.

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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
Why do orchestras need a conductor?....Same reason why studios use clicks. I am sure those guys can keep pretty good time but they still need someone to sync everythig up. BTW it does not have to be an electronic click it can be a simple looped drum pattern.


GREAT point Jim, great point. smile


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I knew I was not in a privalidged spot to mention anything about exacting rythmn.
I recall my first posts here vividly.

The thing that I did not do coming here was to look in to the forms I was working on here as much as having an inkiling of some type of influence and inspiration for what I had in mind.

But for anyrthing else, what is certrain is that depending on whatever one uses as an aid for rythmn and song, what is made of song structure is of primiary importance.
When I did styles more accostomed to this site, I went in thinking that that would be my best, as hilarious as that sounds.

I would not be out to explain my musical worth except for the fact that members gave me their time here and have given thorough critiques.

I don't get in to the musician's mentaliity..

I hear where I live for example of the wonderful togetherness of the jazz and blues fests in South Dakota and Minnesota and how one person in a hapless project was seen in another individual to make that happen.
But my passions are not going to end for what is not seen in me.
That is pretentious.
I may as well do everything around a docile drum machine if I think that.
If someone sees something in me, I would like that to be for what I am.

I have discovered that my expression is a personal thing because I have never been the band type.

The 3 recordings I have up on my link in my sig should be considered my best.

Doing the forms in a sense is like math, but I may not be really good at that.
I can only go with what I do through consensus.

I intend to bounce things up that inspire me and do things that are more formidible.
But if anything will be seen in the song idea to begin with, then a metrenome or click should not be relied on in the first place.

I intend the same thing with exacting the right songwriting and playing to go along with that.

I have my recordings posted chronologically at Soundclick along with what I have at f3 and songcast.

In every estimation with consensus I have I should be considered better.

But at the same time I would like to stick to what this site does more of since that is what I am out to learn more of.

So I get the point of Jim and Mike sub.
Just not all the "prove me" thinking.
I would have really wished that my recordings were digged by the members.
But I knew this site was critical and had Nashville connections from the onset.

I have my own tracks clicking off in my head.
People may like that less.
But I am out to exact my expression.

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I don't think a practical musicians tool as a click can hold a philosophical discussion like this. A click is really not rocket science, and it has nothing to do with your expression. It's about keeping in time with other tracks, otherwise your 'expression' will sound terrible.

There's really nothing to it IMO, just use it when you need it..

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Matt it is time to stop analysis and re inventing the wheel. Learn the craft of songwriting, performing and recording techniques properly. There are no shortcuts or easy other options. It is now a lot easier than in past times due to all the technology available to produce decent home recordings. Learn to use the tools to YOUR advantage. These tools including click trcks were put there for a reason. Dismiss them as "not for me" AT YOUR PERIL. When you do not use the technology and proper techniques mistakes and lack of ability show up and are magnified many time over.

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I generally like to play/record without a click track; I like the flexibility in tempo. But, if I do start to stray too far off-tempo, I am not opposed to using a click. However, I do generally prefer a more-organic feel, it tends to swing more.

And, yet, I used a click (2 clicks) as an instrument in this song:
"Here"
That is two tracks of click that you hear in the beginning (and throughout), autotuned to be in-key).

So, clicks are good, depending upon how you use them.

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Todd there is nothing wrong with freeform especially if the tempo changes often and there are lots of stops and starts. But if layering or playing different parts you need something to keep time to.

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The early post punk, classic rock, and metal musicians I know of and have had opinions with my recordings on like to go by hand with their instruments.

I like making my own click samples to lead off a recording.
But whatever one can do with even a small thimble of knowledge can be that much more when the technology of clickers and samples is more heavily relied on or in a band situation - hence the emotive approach.

Unless one picks up all the instruments to create in that given genre, their opiinions could just be from any listener.
I was out to go back to the wheel and not hide behind other means.

That being said, just like with the eighties electronic acts, there are people that are more interesting then others that are totally automated and rely on click tracks and samples.
I like the instrument in hand, but the samples are good for the synapses.

I could not look at this site as all that conventional or traditional if I relied on them though.
Where I would use click tracks would be to try and compliment a recording, not rely on.

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Matt FYI the bands you mention most probably use clicks otherwise their layered samples and synths would be all over the place. Genre or style has nothing to do with it. Click tracks is the only way to record properlyand keep in time. We have gone to great lengths to explain about click tracks and WHY they are so important. I have also explained that because you do not use click tracks your recordings are out of sync, jumpy and out of tempo. It does not matter how often you say it you are in the minority and IMO very wrong. Putting it bluntly you are the inexperienced one trying to tell people with vastly more experience how to suck eggs. Listen to your stuff then compare it with say Sub's and see why we use click tracks. Of course you could continue to disregard what we say and learn the hard way.

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Dooo!

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