JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum Internet Royalties - ASCAP

Wondering... I've seen 50-60 vids like this one using my music on the Internet. There may be hundreds of them out in Cyberland.
http://s642.photobucket.com/albums/...;current=dfd0ab66.pbr&sort=ascending

Has anyone ever been successful in collecting ASCAP royalties for such public performances? I was considering spending a day tracking down as many of these as I can and submitting them to ASCAP for royalties.

I believe I've read that ASCAP sets money aside to be dispersed to writers for such performances.

Thanks, John

Most of these have been through Pump Audio. http://artist.pumpaudio.com/ViewProfile.aspx?trackid=95862&partner=photobucket I have received licensing fees, but nothing from ASCAP. This has been going on 2-3 years.

I'd like to also hear from the BMI and SESAC folks.

I am with BMI and have had things played on internet stations but this is news to me...I just assumed they were royalty free to promote the songs...........be very interested myself to find out if I can make any royalty claims-thats assuming some of these are still broadcasting at all anyway-lol.........

Tom

Hey Tom,

Mine is only background music. So it’s not really promoting my music- rather promoting the video. I've seen some videos used as announcements and even advertising. Most are art slideshows or short animated videos. I would think that if I supply 50-60 links to videos with my music that ASCAP would pay some sort of royalties.

Maybe Marc Barnette will catch this thread and add some insight. It seems he's BMI affiliated (not sure).

Interesting…

John

Hi John:

I've had several songs played on "Net-Stations" but never expect compensation since I initiated the request for "air-play."

On a slightly different slant, I am an ASCAP writer as well as a small time ASCAP publisher. (I only represent two artists and have no interest in expanding.) A check showed up from ASCAP the other day explaining that one of our songs had been played on the Regis and Kellie show's Baby Contest Segment recently. We were pleased about the national exposure... and the check.

Hi guys,

I am ASCAP but have had songs played on Internet radio and You Tube. To my knowledge, video has never been paid for. Even in the major videos that are on television, you are not paid for that. It is considered promotion, so there is no money involved.

Since people are downloading and peer to peer sharing videos there is no regulatory entity, not even ASCAP or BMI or SESAC that have the man hours or collection authority on any thing on the Internet. Too many avenues, no way to patrol it.

The most recent examples I am familiar with are the Susan Boyle "I Dreamed a Dream' from "Britian's Got Talent " Television show.There were over 100 million hits from that. The writers were paid nothing. Her CD sold around 800,000 units so they will be paid for that.

ASCAP, BMI, SESAC and overseas performance rights organizations, only monitor the biggest performing songs, and major television or film. That is the reason the Regis show will pay something. Not all do. There are even different scales for cable. One of the reasons for the Hollywood writer's strike a year ago, were the streaming aspect of television shows. People are now viewing television shows on the Internet and the writers are not being paid for that. One of the reasons for reality television are to avoid having to pay residual costs to writers.

So Hollywood studios are trying to front load that into future contracts. That will be passed along to the consumer. Radio, television,movies, are all looking for ways to duck payments. There are more competition for each show, each market, so they are making less money. At the same time there are more payments coming for them. The new legislation attempting to get radio to pay artists and musicians are part of this. So this will make an already difficult situation even more difficult.

The result are things like another forum here started by Z Mulls, on a new soap opera, which are asking for music submissions but the only rule is that there will be no royalties paid. They are claiming you will get "exposure." You can die from exposure.The same is coming out of the "Ellen" television show, in which her producers, when asked about paying liscence fees for music in her "dance segments" refused to pay anything, saying "They don't roll that way." Ellen will be a judge on "American Idol" this year. That will further legitimize the concept of refusing to pay for music.

About 12 years ago I attended a forum from hit writers, publishers, agents and technical, internet people. One of the Internet people said "Writers are going to have to forget about performance royalties, because those are going away."

Now that is where we are. Performances are slowly but surely diminishing, the amount of money collected overall are diminishing. The avenues are wide open and people are just now figuring it all out. When rock bands started offering free music years ago, this was all talked about. No one paid attention. As the Internet expanded, no one paid attention. ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, NSAI, other orgainizations were screaming that "This was going to be a problem." No one listened.

Well now it is all here. The money that once existed in music is all but gone. Performance money is gone. Video money is gone. There are still mechanicals and more people are trying to find ways to reset the business model,but as more and more music goes free, there are no mechanicals.

So the people who are doing well are the self contained artists, which are the ones who write their own material, control as much of the product as they can. And those that build huge fan base and distribute directly to their fan base.

The pure writers are all but gone which is the reason the seasoned writers are all writing with the new artists. That is really the only avenue that is left.

Again, I would forget about royalties coming from Internet. There will be none. There are simply no ways to track and control it. The genie is out of the bottle. It left long ago.

MAB

Congrats on the Regis placement Dave.

I've had no problems with ASCAP on TV placements. Even local cable show up on my ASCAP statements.

Best, John

Hey Marc!

Thanks for your detailed response. I guess that just about sizes Internet royalties up. Yeah, I can understand the problem tracking plays on the Internet.

I did send an email to ASCAP yesterday asking them about Internet royalties. If they add anything new, I'll post it here.

Thanks again, John

Just received this email from ASCAP:

Dear Mr. Schick:

This is further to your e mail reference below:

Yes, ASCAP does license internet music users, and we do distribute roylaties for music used on ASCAP licensed websites.

In order to proceed further, please provide the website URL (web address)and as much information as you can about the work used (title, how it's used, and when the use began, if possible)

I hope this information helps.

I guess it wouldn't hurt to supply this info to ASCAP and see what happens.

John

John,

That is good info. The problem lies in the term "ASCAP Liscenced web sites." That is where everything falls down. It says that web sites have to register with BMI, ASCAP, SESAC, etc. The problem is that most web sites are some personal use for someone. They don't register with ASCAP/BMI, etc. That is the overall problem with the Net. How many of you are registering your own web sites with ASCAP/BMI/SESAC? If you do your own music, you might, I bet most will not.
There are quite literally BILLIONS of internet sites. My contention in it all is that there is no physical way to register, report and control all of that. There may be some people that are paying liscence fees. The vast number do not and will not.
Where our real challenge is is in the notion that creative work has value. With the "everyone can do it" mentality that IS the Internet, that is what has let this all get out of control.

Again, in every business, there will always be some that benefit financially. But in this one, most never will. The figures are that 90% of all songwriter/artists, will never make more than $2000 in their lifetime. Brian has numbers that less than 1000 songs ever get significant attention, and that most writers never sell more than 5000 copies of their work.

Those are the numbers we are all dealing with. So the way this should be looked at is always doing your best to control costs going in. Because very seldom to you get anything going out.

MAB

Hey Marc,

Yes, I understand that most personal websites aren't going to register with a PRO.

However, when a website grows in popularity such as Youtube and Photobucket, then I'm sure the PRO's can and should enter into the factor.

Just because the Internet may pose some difficulties regarding royalties, doesn’t mean that it should be ruled out completely.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see if ASCAP has Photobucket listed as a licensed website.

Jeez, it's getting hard to make an honest buck these days.

Catch ya later, on my way to Doc Kerrigan.

John

Music is like sex.

The sexual revolution of the 60's and 70's almost destroyed marriage. Sex then, like music today, was free. No strings attached, no vows, no consequences. Then nature came along. Aids. Things shifted, the pendulum moved backward. We're not back to the 50's, in terms of sex=love=marriage, but we're a lot closer than we were in the mid seventies.

There will be a natural solution. Possibly, as the label/radio model degrades, more people will turn to the net for their music. Then, gradually, the better music will come with a price. The CDBaby model of presenting snippets, combined with some sort of as yet uninvented share protection encoding could do it. Or maybe it will simply become fad and fashion to support one's favorite artists monetarily instead of stealing their work. It will change. Then years later, it will change again. I guarantee it.

In the meantime, John, good luck on your royalties. I hope you get a bunch.

Mike

John,

I don't think anyone is ignoring it. Everyone is doing their best to try and find a model that works. In the 15 years I have been around the issue no one has. There are a lot of people and a LOT of money involved in all of this and people just don't give that up easily. You are basically talking about a way of life here.

I am only pointing out a lot of the issues invovled. Hopefully people will see the overall picture and make changes accordingly. But it is one of the reasons all of us, myself included have had to make changes in the way we do business because you just can't depend on those forms of income streams any more.

So while you don't totally write it off, you do come to the conclusions that most in the industry have come to that there is really no effective way of policing the Internet. Although we all keep trying.

MAB

Mike & Marc, great getting first-hand info from both of you. I appreciate it. Thanks!

John

Way to go John ! There are sites around that pay the suggested streaming RIAA royalties of about 0.007 cents per stream. IAC was one, but has since stopped. eMusic is another. ( I just got 0.02 cents added to my account last month ! ) Didn't Youtube settle on a blanket licensing arrangement ? Hope all the cents add up one day. LOL. Good to see you are persuing it. You never know what's hiding under all the unturned stones.

Mikes right, there will be natural selection. The better acts will migrate to the paying sites, and take the listeners/viewers with them.

cheers, niteshift

Yeah Nite, you know how it is. Someone has to pick up the crumbs. Still waiting to hear back from ASCAP on Photobucket.

The Crumb Boy

Thing is John, you can do a whole lot of stuff with a warehouse full of crumbs.

cheers, niteshift

First, I am with BMI (as songwriter and my publishing company)

This issue came home to me recently when a DJ from LA that is playing my music regularly on his internet radio station asked me if I was getting royalty checks. I told him I was not. He was shocked. He told me he reports all his spins to the PROs. Then I remembered that there are actually quite a few internet radio stations and other venues playing my music regularly now, including Jango.com (who indicate clearly on their site that they report all plays to the major PROs).

I log into my account at BMI and nothing. Then recently I read about SoundExchange. Wasn't SoundExchange created for the express purpose of capturing this internet performance revenue for copyright holders? Clearly BMI and ASCAP are not bending over backwards to do it. I am going to register with SoundExchange this weekend since it's free. Hopefully I will see a check or two.

Hey Manoreza!

I heard of SoundExchange. I thought they charged a monthly fee. I'll have to check into it as well. It's time to get the PRO's to pay us crumb boys are royalties.

Until a lot of us start putting some pressure on, nothing will happen.

There is money allocated for such use. If it's all being distributed amongst the big boys, it just ain't right.

Time for me to send a follow-up to ASCAP.

Best, John

Ok, I just sent this email to BMI (statement@bmi.com):



I look forward to seeing how they respond to that, if at all.

Me too.

It takes nine months from the time it gets played until you get paid, at least that is how it works on normal radio, not sure about net radio. If it is played in another country, the time lag doubles.

HOLY COW THEY RESPONDED!!!

Glad you got a straight answer Manoreza. I'm still waiting word from ASCAP on Photobucket. I'm sure it's small potatoes, but I could use a small spud or two.

John

Hi Guys,

I unfortunately don't have time right this minute to respond in depth on this topic. But there's some sketchy info being offered that I don't believe it 100% correct or complete. I am also not 100% sure if John, who started this discussion, is a registered ASCAP member and if the music in question is actually registered with ASCAP as well? In addition, when it comes to internet play, Sound Exchange is the entity that collects the performance royalties (i.e. for the performers rather than the writers) and no one has mentioned that here at all (that I saw on my quick scan, sorry if I missed it). So please hold on until I can get someone from ASCAP and/or BMI to come here and address this very important topic factually and with up to date info as it pertains to them. The same with Sound Exchange. Because I've been so focused on other stuff the last year, I don't want to speak off the cuff on this topic because things are constantly changing.

I'll put out a call to ASCAP, BMI and Sound Exchange this week and try to get them to come here in person if possible.

Thanks,

Brian

Sounds good Brian!

Yes, I'm an ASCAP member and the works in question are registered.

Thanks, John

ASCAP collects money for digital public performances of songs, SoundExchange collects on digital public performances of SOUND RECORDINGS. That's the difference. Both rely on proper reporting by internet radio stations and other websites.

This first poster's video link has been taken down with the message that "Remix Videos are no longer available."

I suppose enough copyright representatives must have complained.

I doubt anyone complained Brian. It's free advertisement for Photobucket. Maybe the artist that made the video did a re-mix (or pulled it of Photobucket) with a new link.

John

Thanks Brian for stepping in on this issue. I did in fact mention Sound Exchange in a previous post and I took the time this week to register with them. You can actually register online for free here:

Register with SoundExchange for free.

They also provide a search utility to see if you are one of the performers they have been holding uncollected money for:

Does-sx-have-money-for-you?

In addition to registering you can also become a "member" of SoundExchange (free as well).

As we await more intel from Brian and the PRO representatives, I will keep you all posted about any progress or revenue captured by SoundExchange.

Has any other have experience with soundexchange?
I'm foreign so i just wondered about the details. I still want to "allow" pages to use my music for free if I want so i don't know if belonging to soundexchange the limit this right somehow as the pros tend to do
I have listens in last fm and other radios that pay royalties but i'm not sure how to proceed
is finally sound exchange a solution or does it limit you further on to do any particular thing regarding the handling of your rights?

Has any other have experience with soundexchange?
I'm foreign so i just wondered about the details. I still want to "allow" pages to use my music for free if I want so i don't know if belonging to soundexchange the limit this right somehow as the pros tend to do
I have listens in last fm and other radios that pay royalties but i'm not sure how to proceed
is finally sound exchange a solution or does it limit you further on to do any particular thing regarding the handling of your rights?