JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum My thoughts on "the rules" of song writing

I find it interesting that I read many posts stating that the chorus or the bridge of a song is in the wrong place, or, the lyrics don't rhyme exactly at the right time, or the song is too long. I think some of us have been reading too many books and not going with their own instinctual artistic feel for expression. As I replied to one post regarding one of my songs, some of the best songs in history have not followed "the rules" of song writing. Cat Stevens' father/son song is two verses and an instrumental and then two verses. A recent hit by the artist Dido was structured verse, chorus, verse, bridge, chorus, chorus. Another great song that I just cannot think of the name of right now starts with the chorus and follows with a verse. And in terms of length, more than half of Sheryl Crow's songs are between 4 and 5 minutes in length - soak up the sun is 4:44 to be exact and that got tons of airplay. I feel it is safe to say that there are no rules for a great song! So, I will assume that if one of my songs is falling short to the listener, then it simply is not a good song - not because I am not "following the rules!"

Tracy,

I think this would be a good and valid topic if posted in the songwritng or general forum.

I do understand your views, it is what all of us go through when we first post our songs.

You will need to come to some sort of understanding with yourself on "WHY" you are posting....if you do want some comments, then post and if the comments are not usable to you, then kindly thank the person and move on.

If you feel your songs are not in need of others opinions, then don't post them for comments and give yourself a break..LOL!!

Everyone is just trying to help and share their experience and views. Each person has their own ideas of how a song should sound and progress, it doesn't make them right or wrong, it is just an opinion.

What you choose to listen to and act upon and how your song ends up is your own artistic choice in the end and we all respect that.

You have a wonderful voice and the songs I have listened to are very nice. You need to draw the line where you see fit with each song and if you open it up to the community for comments, be appreciative of their time they take in listening and commenting, whether you agree or not, and move on.

But, we all go through this frustration in the beginning, it isn't the comments, it is how you choose to view them and handle them.

Tammy
TamsNumber4

I think that a lot of the posts and advice here are given with the assumption that all the folks here are writing songs to pitch. And, in that sense, the advice given is really good, solid advice. The folks here know what they hell they are talking about.
You should keep that in mind.
However, for folks like me who write strictly for themselves, to perform themselves, to share their music with the world on their own terms, that kind of advice is (mostly) superfluous. But not entirely.
I do think that, even in a situation like mine (or, I assume, yours, as well), this kind of advice is something to be taken and considered carefully if you want to hone your craft as well as your art. Because that is what you are looking at here -- the craft of songwriting. And that can help a ton, as well.
I write a lot of odd songs that don't follow the "rules", myself. But there have been several times that I have taken the advice of the folks on the board here into consideration, when trying to finish a song -- even ones that don't follow the "traditional rules" of songwriting.
Don't take it as a slam; take it for what it is: a really good piece of advice from somebody who knows what they're doing, even if they don't necessarily know what you are doing.
I have much respect for everybody here. Take a look at the advice you got again. I am sure that it's good advice, even if it doesn't completely apply to what you are trying to do.

Good points, Tams.

Tracy, I can understand your – and perhaps others’ – frustration, but it does boil down to one’s reasons for posting.

If it’s for constructive critiques, people will give these, and are generous with their feedback (as you’ve seen ).

If it’s simply to share a song for people to listen to, you can mention in the initial post that the song isn’t for critique. I occasionally do this when I post a soundtrack that’s already been through a gruelling revision process off-site. To my mind, and as far as those particular collaborators are concerned, the recording is Finished. It won’t be re-done. I always mention this so that viewers/listeners don’t spend their valuable time going through the song with a fine-tooth comb and making suggestions. For other songs, I welcome critiques, and am eager to have as much input as possible because the song is still in the beginning stage. This helps me enormously, especially in gaining some distance from my lyric/song and being able to see where it needs more work.

As for rules: One reason popular artists can get away with breaking them is because they’ve already established themselves; their producers/managers know these artists are going to rake in the big bucks no matter what they sing. It’s also true that many of these artists are accomplished, highly skilled in the craft. They know when and where to “buck the system”, as it were. (Coincidentally, I’ve just finished reading two excellent books of interviews involving famous songwriters. I was astonished to read of the time these people took to perfect their music or a lyric, for any given song. Sure, many of the lyrics/songs were spontaneous and whipped up literally in minutes. These, though, were the exception.)

When people comment on the poor placement of a bridge or a chorus, or rhyming, or whatever, it’s because that placement does nothing to enhance the song/lyric or move it forward. For example, the function of a bridge in general is to introduce either a musical or a lyrical twist, an element of surprise or a resolution of what’s been going on in the verses. Thus, there’s little sense in placing a bridge after the first verse or before the last verse. As I see it, the main function of a song is to have optimal emotional impact. And it usually takes considerable crafting to make a song capable of achieving that.

Ever since the beginning of language and music, rhymes have been used to enhance stories and to make them memorable to listeners. In the days before written language, minstrels and storytellers used rhyme to help them remember the often incredibly long stories they took with them from town to town to entertain and inform dwellers.

Good rhyming techniques can keep a song/lyric in the listener’s mind much longer. Rhymes don’t need to be “perfect” either (though some die-hards would disagree), but can be “near-rhymes”. Heck, they can even be “masculine” and “feminine”. (For a fascinating insight into the world of rhyme, I recommend “The Complete Rhyming Dictionary (Revised)” edited by Clement Wood.

Indeed, a lot of songs begin with the chorus, and sound wonderful, because the writer is using the chorus to set up the emotion, the feel of the song. In other types of songs, it’s more important for them to begin with the story.

If an artist or anyone else “breaks the rules”, it’s necessary to do it intelligently, to achieve a certain artistic effect. In these cases, NOT knowing the “rules” – or what I’d prefer to call “guidelines” - is a handicap.

Artistic expression is desirable and necessary. No doubt about that. But to make that expression appealing to a much wider audience, one needs to make informed decisions about how to create and shape the material so that it can perfectly convey its intention.

Well. A few quick and off-the-cuff thoughts on the topic. Perhaps Brian or Mike could move the thread to the Songwriting or General forum. Would be good to have other feedback.

Donna

Looks like I posted this in the wrong area - sorry - don't know my way around the site to well. I guess I did not word this post to well as people are taking it as "I don't like any negative commentary on my songs." That is not the intention at all. I am a new song writer so I am probably on the top of the list for needing guidance and critical suggestion. I would not have posted a song if I thought it was great. Where I have fallen short here is as Pop said, most people on this site are trying for the next big hit and evaluating from a commercial standpoint. I now understand that. I get lost in the artistic expression of it all. I am seeing music, paintings, photos, color all around in one great big package. I will keep those thoughts to myself in the future:)

Tracy, all of the above applies just as equally to non-commercial as to commercially-oriented songs.

I for one am certainly not striving for the next big hit. I prefer reality.

To me - and to most of my collaborators - it's ALL about "artistic expression". I want any lyric or song of mine to be crafted such that - as well as pleasing me entirely - it will touch or affect a listener in a particular way. This is the Art. This is where "guidelines" come in, and where to apply them or to ignore them.

Donna

TRACY--

A song from the heart--easy to sing--with great performance--CAN CUT ACROSS ALL THE RULES--and strike a COMMON CHORD IN THE HEARTS OF THE MASSES--BUT THE SONG HAS TO HAVE DISTRIBUTION--THAT'S WHERE THE RULES COME IN.

CARL SANDBURG'S SIMPLE POEM "FOG"--IS ONE OF MY FAVORITES--FREE VERSE; SONGS, ALSO CAN BE IN FREE VERSE--WITH A POWERFUL ENOUGH STORY AND/OR MUSIC.

AT MY AGE, I STILL TRY TO RHYME, MAYBE NEAR RHYME, OR ACCENT RHYME--SOMETIMES, I CAN'T FIND A RHYME AND LET GO AS IS--

NO TWO LISTENERS ARE ALIKE--THAT'S THE BEAUTY.

Mackie

Hi Tracy,

You are correct that most people here are trying for commercial success in their songs. It's true in that case that you need to follow most of the rules to get the listener's ear quickly but if you are writing for the sheer joy of artistic expression it is still good to have consistant structure throughout a song nevertheless. Having said that, following the so called rules in some instances is like painting by numbers. It may make you a good technician but not necessarily create a great song artistically. Take all criticism whether positive or negative with a grain of salt.

I believe and have said that some people are parroting what they've read in reading too many books and articles on songwriting. If it works it works. If it doesn't work it could very well be because of structure like rhyme scheme, etc.
I say learn the so called rules and then be true to yourself based on what sounds good but not just out of ingnorance.

It depends alot on what you intend for the song to accomplish. I myself write for personal pleasure and because I simply have to because songwriting and production are not what I do but part of who and what I am. I long ago gave up the dream to be commercially successful. That doesn't mean that I am any less passionate about my works than someone who is pitching their songs. I may be more of a perfectionist just because I want to create something really good and don't give a rat's behind about painting by the numbers in some cases but I want it to be cohesive all the same.

I'll tell you the advise my friend, Billy Strange, the fellow in the avatar with me, gave me. Billy has done everything in the entertainment business from being a first call studio musician, producer, arranger, hit songwriter, actor to well...you name it. He's worked for or with everyone from The Beach Boys to Elvis and Frank Sinatra.

Anyway, I mentioned to him my frustration with myself for not doing anything with my music professionally and was always beating myself up because of it. This is what he said to me...
"You do it because you have a passion for it. I've had all the money and fame and I can tell you it's bullsh!t. You do it because you have a passion for it and that's enough."

I won't list them here but you can look up Billy's credentials at www.billystrangemusic.com Go to the biography section to see just a few of his accomplishment. I've taken his advise seriously.

Stevie

Thanks Stevie, Mackie, and Donna. I'm on board with all that. Thanks for reeling me back in. Here's to doing what we all love!

Tracy

You have touched on so many aspects of song-writing in this post I hardly know where to begin. Good song writing is about having a reason (musical or lyrical) for doing what you are doing to get your intended message across to the listener. Choruses, Verses and Bridges are all just vehicles to structure a song and get the message over and they can be used in any order. Although just by analysing hit songs you will discover that some structures are more prevalent than others.

If someone says ‘your bridge is in the wrong place’ they should offer some reason as to why it’s in the wrong place, otherwise I would pay little heed. Same with length, if your song is 5 minutes but it could do the same job in 3 minutes, I would say you need to wield the axe, however if the story (or whatever) cannot be told in that time then 5 minutes may be right.

It’s all about reasons, and if you don’t have a reason for doing what you are doing then you probably shouldn’t be doing it

Nige

Tracy, I follow one rule: If the song sounds good, it's a good song.

Hi Tracy

You are absolutely correct, good thread with great points.

We all know the technical reasons why this is in so many cases.
But you nailed an excellent point. Write a really good song and that whole rules thing is OUT the window.

Your so right the song falls short to the listener because in most cases it's just not effective enough.

What keeps bringing the rules back with "business in mind" is .....

The odds...
1- Most writers would like to have a hit song, and most hit songs follow "a format" rules. Especially "Genre" rules.
And today it's more SEPARATED than ever in that regard.
Country where most writers who use a pen have to submit, is the most rule formatted genre of the bunch. Others do is as well. Rock is the most diverse but who writes for rock bands? And that genre is not hot on the charts. Rock bands are very very formatted today "Nickelback" the leader is the biggest example of that. They either can't break mold, are afraid to break mold or not allowed to break mold.

2- Most songwriters who aren't the artist themselves have to submit songs to artists who usually don't write. Those artists are mostly concerned with hits. But tougher than that is there managers, producers, publishers and LABELS want hits, they want money. They ALL need to be paid. So safety first.

3- Again the sole songwriter especially unknown who does not have the cool sound, style, look vibe, hype etc... has there song which is a piece of paper and a demo scrutinized to HELL.
The stars songs with nothing to them at all are "An Event" Great packaging. Nobody wants to give the unknown songwriter anything so the easiest way to say NO can start with "Huh? a minute twenty before the first chorus?"

Fanbase
4- All that said your point is best overall. It's hard to use any self-writing artist as an example. Listen "Artists" get away with murder in this business. Especially KNOWN artist.
They can meander over two chords an entire song and it's hit making money occupying space on the charts. I see and hear this constantly.
Or they can have these very cool very GOOD songs or style that allows them some freedom and room to breathe.
As long as there;'s a fan base the LABEL will not pressure you into more commercial or formatted genre career moves.

Lady Gaga tried that first didn't go as planned, she went format
and now look...

Finally, it's actually way EASIER to write and produce in the rules and format. Any writer can learn this, but cannot write or compose a Let It Be, Bohemian Rhapsody or a Dark Side Of the Moon & a "The Wall, "Roundabout" Listen to Thunder Road, American Pie and some of these seven minute songs and realize how small we and our songs are. It goes on and on... That's whuy some people have a hit even and are forgotten others are legends in the hall of fame

"Genesis" has GREAT songs, but did not have big commercial success really until they started formatting to the simple rules. Yet even some of those early hits were still GREAT songs with skill behind every aspect of them.

I don't care what you do, BE EFFECTIVE one way or another.
If your at the talent level of a Paul Simon your songs are a GO no matter what the arrangement is.

Most writers need that format, and in most cases, so does our songs. I'm with you on this. I know all the differences VERY well and I'm forever humbled.

Hi Tracy,
I for one am quite touchy about comments made on my songs and I love to break rules, but I grit my teeth and listen. Sometimes I hear something I like.
Vic

I always spot these effective song approaches.

Always have, I remember the band "War" they would have these great arrangments. Didn't think about them growing up singing the songs
but realized it soon enough.

"Why Can't We Be Friends" with it's two line verse, chorus, two line verse chorus, two line verse chorus...
"Cisco Kid" & "Low Rider"

Cisco with the every line repeated twice format

Some people use various world music to arrange with and bring it to pop. Always try to let the song dictate to you what it wants to do.

I don't often do it but I'm very proud when my songs don't all sound the same, feel the same, and go the same.

Mike,

Funny you mention WAR. I really liked that group and have been hearing their songs lately on commercials. Friday night I went to see some friends of mine play here in Nashville and in the audience was the Harmonica player. They ended up giving him a mic and then dragged him onstage to play a bit.Was really cool.

MAB

I much agree with you Tracy

we are after all-creative people and creative people dont do their magic by thinking like factory production workers who have just been through a assembly line course....

I myself believe the worst thing you can do is follow the leader-or whoever thinks they are the leader-in the songwriting business....You are an engineer-inventive type and progress is never made by those who only walk into well lit rooms-creatively speaking.......its made by those who wander into the dark rooms of the mind and search for the light switch....their search and mapping it all out while bumping into things-is what creativity is all about.......keep being creative and stay away from the well lit rooms........you wont find anything new in them.......

good luck!

Tom

Hi Marc

That's cool and just last Friday. Yeah they had those cool arrangements as well as good musicians. When I was on tour under MCA a hundred years ago,we had a gig at the House Of Blues in LA. We go in the afternoon to set up and sound check and who do you think is playing a private party gig? War! Man it was soooo cool.

Moderators, please delete this post if you feel that it is an inappropriate posting of a link to my own song, but I am curious to hear what folks think of this one in regards to our conversation here thus far:
"Tortured Artist"
It is one where I intentionally broke many rules of songwriting and I want to know where this falls in to the conversation. I will post my rationale behind this composition, but I want commentary that is uninfluenced by my explanation.

If this needs its own thread, I can move it there, too. (It had one long ago, but the link there has been invalid for a while.)

Thanks and, if you have counterexamples to provide as well, I would be interested in hearing them.

I always get a chuckle out of this "rule-breaking" thing. I haven't heard a song here at JPF in the four years that I have been here that didn't follow a structure of some sort. In song-writing (especially in lyric writing) you are trying to communicate -- structure, rhyme and other "rules" help you do that. ... and they aren't really rules -- When 90+% of "popular western music" for the last 100+ years follows a Verse-Refrain format (with maybe a bridge in there), it makes sense that most of us write that way too.

Basically if a song sounds good, it sounds good. If I said that a bridge was in the wrong place, then it would mean that it broke the flow of the song unnaturally. If I said it was too long, it probably means that my mind started wandering and I lost interest in it.

PopTodd: What rules did you break? Sounded like it had structure to me. Maybe the bridge was in the wrong place and it was a little too long ... ha, ha!

Kevin

Cool, then I guess I did it well!
Or else, maybe we are thinking of different rules?

Oh, it absolutely had structure. A very rigid one, in fact. However, I have a few questions:

Q: Did you hear a chorus? How many times?
Q: If you did, how often did I return to the verses after the chorus?
Q: Was there a bridge? Were there bridges? Where were they?

Maybe I am too close to the song? But I thought that I was breaking lots of rules.
Interesting to hear your take on my questions.

Maybe this re-frames the argument. Maybe the "rules" are fluid, and it depends upon who you ask?

Remember when Burger King had that catchy slogan "Sometimes you have to break the rules." I am sure this applies in song and lyric writing as well. Songs that tell a story ala "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" don't really have a chorus, and yet it became a huge hit. According to many, Gordon Lightfoot definitely broke the rules on that one. And yet there are many who will "pigeonhole" writing to believe that it has to follow the verse1, chorus, or verse1, verse2, chorus pattern. Most do, but not all. Another example of a big hit that didn't, Marty Robbins' "El Paso". That one at the time was considered too long for radio airplay when it first came out, but later on some formats warmed up to playing lengthier material. At that time the standard was from 2 1/2 to 3 minutes--today it is more like 3 1/2 to 4 minutes.

Peace,
Brian

Todd,

If you want more analysis, you'll have to print out the lyrics. I am doing FAWM and RPM and I don't have much time this month for listening/reviewing here at JPF-land.

Since they are no rules, you can't break any. Why, did you play a "C#" note against a "C" chord? That's not breaking a rule -- it just sound too dissonant to me. But to someone else, in the proper context, it might be perfect. The B and C played together sounds dissonant, but separate them and you have the cmaj7 chord -- a very pretty chord. If you thought you were breaking a lot of rules, then you were probably thinking too much.

Kevin

Rules? We don't need no stinking rules!

Rules are not laws, they are measures...observations...averages.

There are folks who like to follow rules and folks who like to break them. Both are cool. But then there are folks who insist that one should always break the rules...but then they don't know what the rules are. How can you break the rules when you don't know them? Example:

A songwriter once insisted to me that he was breaking all the rules in Nashville Country Music. He said he had the most revolutionary sound ever. Then he gave me a tape (this was back when dinosaurs roamed the plains). His song was the most rulebound jazz ballad I'd ever heard. It was so right down the middle that it was practically a cliche, like a Saturday Night Live parody of a lounge jazz singer. More rules than the I.R.S. code

So, break those rules, but you can't break them on purpose if you don't know them. Otherwise you're just floundering. There's no rule that says you have to know the rules, though, but if there was, folks would break it.

Hi Todd

I liked it, I thought the arrangement was both cool and effective. And YES you broke rules lol but really you didn't do what was expected. The first thing i enjoyed was how it reminded
me of being in a band.

You know where your playing together and somebody says lets change here no? And the other says, no lets do it two more times then...
That is very cool. Loved the acoustic/classical guitar breaks section.

I followed all the changes and sections and thought most were all natural and effective feeling, however for me being a nut that I am, I would have to have my edited versions.

Not to do what's totally expected but just enough to tease and entice the listener and still deliver the punch across.
So for me as a producer or a member of that band I go two less
measures on that opening verse.. Then again a touch shorter on the acoustic guitar break section...

Longer than expected was VERY effective, a touch too much loses the effect so worthily gained.

But that's the beauty of editing, to please everyone.

Interesting arrangement and catchy song, I appreciated it.

I was thinking more song structure, rather than note selection. But that's all good, Kevin.
As to extensive review/analysis, I am not looking for that in re: to my song, just trying to give more food for thought to this conversation.

Guess it's time to stop being cryptic about the thing:
I composed the tune, as a through-composed song, with none of the parts repeated. Instead of an A B A B C B A type song structure, with verse/chorus, etc, I composed it as:
A B C D E C and then it ends.

Maybe I was thinking too much, but it was something that I wanted to do; something that was lurking in the back of my brain for a long time, so I was glad to finally get it out of me.

Hope that clarifies some of my thinking.
And thanks for listening and considering the tune, Kevin! It is appreciated.
But, as I said, I was just trying to inject it to feed into the bigger conversation here.

So yeah, you have brought up those interesting questions:
What are the rules and how are we breaking them?
How can we break them?

EDIT:
Thanks, Mike!
I can see your critiques re: the lengths of the sections. However I wanted to do it that way, so that (esp. during the first section), I could change around the arrangement -- adding the additional percussion and changing the bassline.
As I said, it was all in my head. Yes, before I ever recorded the thing.
And I played/sang everything myself (except the drums). Felt real good.

Again, back to the larger discussion: WHAT are the rules, after all?
And, therefore, who's to say when and how we've broken them?

Effective is the only thing that counts...

Some need rules sometimes, I find with bands that come to the studio they'll just do whatever they want. That's cool but then they want to know why there songs are "not happening"

And it usually starts within the song, but in many cases also with the arrangement. If your NOT going to a chorus soon you BETTER have a good reason! Not just "dude go back to the intro, so i can do my solo there, then wait two and start singing"
Okay man, whatever you say when is it my turn to solo or play this riff six more times...

When your not sure LOOK at the clock if it says 1: 45 and still no chorus or effective change, most likely your song is going to suffer.
The basics work for a reason....

With Todd's song it has a more playful way about it, and it's not boring or being over indulgent. It has purpose.
Still I would vote it around the room and get that PERFECT combo of both. This way just trying to make it even more effective.
Maye it works maybe not... But he has purpose, a reward for the moves he's making.

Bands will present songs with no purpose just either the "whatever" thinking, as long as were doing it tight together it's fine.

And then there's LAZY, nobody wants to sit down and labor over something that's supposed to be pure fun, "shoot I'll stay home with my spouse and kids if i want to argue" lol

I think that Mike hit on the key point:
It just has to WORK!

I think that's the point of "rules" isn't is? You write a song THIS way, because it's been PROVEN to work! That's why it's been made a "rule" in the first place.

But then, if you break a rule and it still works, it just doesn't matter.
And, if enough people break the same rule, in the same way, and it works every time (or at least almost every time)... well then, you have a NEW rule, don't you?

Todd

I totally get it and yes I remember standing in the rehearsal room with my bass on, we would extend a section and i would be like looking at the drummer and making my bass line change.

Then we would discuss if he should change a little as well, try different things.
It's cool as you work that out all alone. I do that as well but wish I had the help around like years past.

I wouldn't add to the length of the sections to make those moves, but rather make the moves to enhance the extended section.
A good example from my experience when i was 19 and with the band writing, practicing, showcasing...

Is we would make a move like that, then out manager/producer
would say, guys that was weird, shouldn't have changed, you's lost me there. So we would talk about and find that perfect middle if possible.

To me, I always fall back on, well I like my way and can do whatever I want, no one can take that away. But I'll do whatever need be to advance my music past my front door. What do I care
I'll write another song 10 minutes long with no change whatsoever in it to make up for this inconvenience LOL
I never do that anyway, couldn't.

Listen when you do everything and want to experience everything
you either become nuts or become like me, same difference lol.

A couple of simple arrangement/edit moves, and I click "Buy Now"

Well done Todd - you caught one!!

Tracy,

As with all advice, you have to consider the source.

Wow, what lively conversation this post has started - these are the artists I am looking for and love! Thanks for posting everyone!

"They're not rules... just - guidelines, really"

--Pirates of the Caribbean


I go with Mike Dunbar: if you don't LEARN the rules first you can't break them effectively.

It's like learning to speak and learning grammar in grade/high school. Music, songs, are expected to have structure just like our sentences are expected to have structure. Now - you have a simple sentence like:

"Let's Groove." Subject - Verb

or:
"I wanna hold your hand." Subject - Verb - Object

or more complex thoughts:
"Mama, I just killed a man; put a gun against his head, pulled my trigger, now he's dead." (Eh! Not diagramming that one, ouch!)

They're all valid sentences with grammatical STRUCTURE that we recognize.

Little kids string together phrases that may not always make sense - unless you're their mother -- when they are learning to speak. But eventually we all learn a syntax which can be understood by others.

The "rules of songwriting" are really, learning to put these pieces into an order most ears recognize as "a song."

Yes you can put them together in unusual ways if you like --
but it's less likely to resonate with the common denominator.

None of this is in ANY WAY a critique of your work, BTW - it's a generalization.

Same thing goes for painting, screenwriting - any art form.
Big difference between your 4th grader's art project on the fridge which may be 'abstract' and a Picasso or Jackson Pollock. Even Picasso learned life drawing to accuracy before he moved on to discover and grow his own styles.

Sure - there may be happy accidents and child prodigies in the mix which turn out a work of genius without any schooling. (One of these being Johnny Depp's acting - which was on the money from the get-go without any formal school or training whatsoever.)

But the vast percentage of us.......... gotta learn the ropes.

Linda

That's possible... and a great way to figure this out is to get out to open mics and watch the faces of your audience, and see if applause if lukewarm or responsive!

BUT it's also possible it's not a great song YET because some of the rules are broken, which when corrected for, fix the "problem" and the song will improve. IE - if you put a battery in the clock the wrong way, it won't run. Flip it around and you have a working machine. Nothing wrong with either the battery or the parts - only the way you put it together!

I hope I don't sound "hard on you" --- I'm not making this personal in any way, just general thoughts and ideas.

In my experience as a freelance editor I have found the BEST most likely to succeed clients are those willing to revise over and over until it's just right.

Those who understand the first draft is rarely the final draft.

Even Bohemian Rhapsody had lines rewritten. Stairway to Heaven, only a few words (and written in 10 minutes, one of those rare strokes of genius). Crazy Little Thing Called Love was also a 10-minute write.

But if you look over the greats, they ALL revise and rewrite more often than not.

The clients I've had who argued with me their novel didn't need "structure" and that their characters were "just fine!!" and not flat cardboard cutouts --- those are the ones whose only road to publication is self-publishing.

And loads of boxes of unsold books in the basement.

So it all depends what you're after; serving yourself or serving your audience.



Linda

Right on, Linda.

And as I mentioned above, Tracy, if it's about "appealing to a much wider audience, one needs to make informed decisions about how to create and shape the material so that it can perfectly convey its intention."

It can also happen that lyrics in a song are wonderful and the music's only so-so, and vice versa (which is more common). Ideal is when both are as perfect as can be.

Good discussion, folks.

Donna

Pop,
I did not hear a lot of obvious structure to this song, but I can tell you through one listen that there was a re-occuring music riff which kept the song moving. I loved, loved the ending. That is a very cool break down from where you were headed, unexpected and great. I think it is a very interesting song and the voice matched the style of the music. It seems alternative to me, but I could enjoy listening to that at a party!

Linda and Donna,
I hear you both, don't think you are wrong. As stated in one of the comments above, we all follow some rules of song writing. Most of my songs would fall into the rule following structure, but not because I have read a book on how to write a song, but I subconsciously learned by loving music and listening to what is appealing to my ear and what brings me back to listening to a song over and over again. So yes, I am guilty of following the structure to some extent. If and when I ever write a song that I feel is a real winner, and I plan to pitch it, I will be very sure to have all the components for the pros. In the meantime, I know that musical preference varies greatly among listeners, so I will be true to myself and just have fun. Thanks for your comments.

That's pretty much in line with my own thinking, Tracy. I'm being true to myself by crafting lyrics in a way that feels natural to me, and that will - I hope - touch the reader/listener in the deepest way possible, irrespective of whatever emotional response I want the words to elicit. This is my artistic expression. And I'm sure having a heap of fun doing it.

Donna

Rules are tools and it's wise to learn them
Reputations can be made and good songs help you earn them
If you write a hit they will not say “he broke the rules”
Rather they will all declare how your song is cool
So the moral of the story is learn well the craft indeed
But if winds of inspiration blow allow the muse to lead!

Rule #1 of Hooking Listener Interest: Hook me. You only have to obey this rule if you want me to pay attention.
Rule #2 of Hooking Listener Interest: Don't let me come unhooked. You only have to obey this one if you don't care if I keep paying attention.

Rule #3 of Hooking Listener Interest: And this is a good one. YOU are the first listener. You should be hooked the same way you hope others will be hooked. If you just accept the first line that comes to you, because it's fun to be singing or writing, without truly being 'hooked' into it, it piquing your curiosity, odds are other listeners won't be either. They may hear the line you simply 'accepted' and come unhooked right there.

The 'sounds' of the introductory passage have 'hook-factor'.

Rule #1 of introductory passages: Hook me, and don't let me come unhooked because it quit being interesting but went on and on and on and on and on and on and...you get the idea.

This rule is an important corollary to the rule "Don't bore us; get to the chorus." The chorus is where THE hook is most prominently given, and THE hook is of such strategic importance to the meaning of the song that keeping me waiting through an introductory passage that goes 'too long' may break rule # 2, and I lose interest. Be discriminating as to when you've done enough introduction and it's time to get on with the opening line.

Of course 'too long' is in the ear of the beholder. Each listener decides for themselves whether they're still interested in the introductory passage after 10 seconds or 14 seconds or 24 seconds or 2 minutes and 41 seconds.

Rule # 1 of Verse Function: It is the function of verses do lyrical exposition, setting up the story, communicating to the listener what the singer-character is singing about, and what their motivation is. Be discriminating of when enough exposition has been done and it's time to get on with the chorus.

Rule # 1 of Chorus Function: It is the function of the chorus to enable the singer-character to stop doing exposition and make the point, deliver the punch line, sum up what their main grievance is, or their main motivational factor is. Discriminate as to whether you're still doing exposition, setting up, or are truly in chorus mode, making the point.

Rule # 1 of THE Hook: THE hook, a single line that is so essential, simmering down the whole storyline into a few words, the essence, occupies a strategic position in the song.

It may be a 'refrain-type' chorus, a single line ending each verse, and serving the function of being THE hook.

It may be a 'stanza-type' chorus, comprised of several lines, with THE hook strategically positioned as the last line left ringing in the ear of the listener. THE hook may also be the first line of the chorus, AND the last line. It may be in the middle AND the last line. If it's only the first line followed by other lines it may not stand out as THE hook, THE point, THE essence of the storyline. It may be forgotten by the time the listener hears all the following lines, robbing it of its success in serving the function of being the summary point, THE hook.

Rule #2 of Chorus Function: The chorus must contrast with the verse. It must have a change of dynamics, be more emotional, higher-pitched, more dramatic, more punchy, something more, than the emotion, pitch, drama, punch, uh, 'less-ness' of the expositional verses.

Rule # something regarding the 2nd verse: The second verse should advance the story, not just repeat what's already been said, saying it in another way, other words, but essentially the same thing. You may need time for the gist of the story to come to you. What hooked you in line one should have been the implications of the singer-character's situation. It made you begin to imagine them in the place, the setting of their story, conceiving the time, the year, the past, the present, the time of day, their image, the scene, the 'furniture', something of their character, character exposition.

But really getting a grip on the full story may take some incubation time. You can push and write a rhyme, or you can let it incubate, let it stew, let the 'feel' of the character grow on you, assume the character's persona, be the creature, feel their feelings, suffer their situation, walk in their shoes. Then the lines you write to tell their story can take on a reality grounded in their motivation.

There's something called "The Third Verse Curse". Writers who push to finish a song suffer it. They can't think of how to bring the story to a satisfying end. They stress over it. Push for it. They despair of finding it and write a bridge instead, a piece with a variant melody, different from that of the verse or chorus, which you've heard twice each, Verse 1, Chorus, Verse 2, Chorus, and which might be monotonous if you did a repeat of the melody (and lyric) of V1 or V2, or a 3rd repeat of the chorus. So they write a bridge, an instrumental 'break', breaking the repetition, or a lyrical bridge which pivots the story, refreshes the ear with its variance of melody, and enables that final giving of the chorus.

Any of those structures can 'work', satisfying the listener, you, the writer, others. But a good denouement, an ending for the story that satisfies the sense of entertainment, a desired result, a successful result for the singer-character, can be had if you're studious, and patient.

Rule # 1,248: Write. Writers write. Otherwise they can't call themselves writers. And read. You never know how what you read will influence what you write. You begin to get a sense of how a scene gets 'painted' by writers, how a character's character is 'exposed', demonstrated so you 'get' their motivation, and can walk in their shoes. The Pulitzer Prize list can supply books to stimulate your imagination. They won for a reason.

Rules? They are flexible, elusive, necessary. They enable you to supply demanded structure, and demanded change, repetition to enable listeners to 'get' it, you, others, and change, to keep it interesting, for you, and others. There is not one way, one structure, one order of rules. They are manipulable. Satchmo said, "If it sounds good, it is good." Being discriminating about what sounds good, how much is enough, how much is too much, when to stop doing introduction and get on with exposition, when to stop doing exposition and get to the point, how to repeat, how to change, when to repeat and when to change, when to push ahead, when to wait and incubate, these are all the joys of songwriting that can never be exhausted. Songwriters have been writing for, maybe, millions of years, and still, someone writes a new song. Play with the rules, use them, obey them, break them, bend them, make them serve you. Hook the first listener, and satisfy their sense of what's good. As the songwriter, you are the first listener.

I absolutely agree. It's hardly ever about the rules being broken, so much as that the song simply doesn't work. If you take a song that someone didn't like, then rearrange the structure to make it more "normal", chances are the critic still won't like it.

Strive to be normal...no, not my motto.

Tracy, what a GREAT THREAD!!! Your very first post is all I needed to read. Been here since Sept. 2008 and quite frankly, NEVER agreed with "THE RULES". All the songs I ever loved broke them. Zeppelin broke them a gazillion times...you don't see THEM cryin'!

I only started writing two years ago, but I got a lot of compliments on what I did do. It's a far cry from GOOD, but it's worth a nod. I only write from my heart, and if I don't FEEL LIKE a bridge, I don't put one there. If I don't FEEL LIKE an outlandish lyric, I don't write one. I write from my heart and my life, and most folks tend to like it. I didn't read what everyone else said, skimmed through, and you have a lot of good responses from reputable folks, but I never did pay attention to the rules and I never will. I will write as I do, and it will work or not for others but it works FOR ME!

Rules are not really rules, they are guidelines. All throughout history artists has worked with structures and guidelines. Pythagoras converted musical harmonies into geometry, which architects used to build houses and painters used to sketch on their canvas, ahead of the painting session. Shakespeare worked with rhyme schemes. The sonnet in his time was as rigid as todays popular ABABCB hit formula.

Rules are tools, we use to help us make a piece of art, not dogma we need to follow in order to find recognition, allthough it sometimes can seem like that.

We read books, and find tools to help us, usually on the night table. After the morning coffee, we go with what's stuck with us, our inspirations, the flow, and everything in between..

What we need to understand is that the commercial markets have guidelines and rules too. Those are business rules, often unwritten, yet widely understood. These are not the same as the artistic rules, yet when aiming to exploit your work, we need to adhere to those rules too. Not in order to do art, but in order to do the business of art.

Some don't like a naked lovers painting in their living room, so they look for one with flowers, because that's what they want. If artists only paints naked lovers, the artists and the market doesn't correspond well. So, some will paint the flowers themselves, and others will ask someone else to do it, artist or not. I don't consider myself an artist, I'm a craftsman, and I use my craft to help folks out. I don't like to "express" anything, that I can't validate in the real world. That's MY rule

So, there can be several sets of rules to consider, depending on what you want to do.

Tracy- I took your post for what you intended and agree with you--this is an art and that being the case there are no hard and fast rules-
please keep posting--I put posts in the wrong place all the time by the way--not intentionally but there are alot of forums here and it takes time to find them
tim

Here's a thought.

Rules cannot be broken. They can be exceeded or they can be not met.

A rule is not a law, it is a measurement or a template or a guideline. A ruler, for example, is a stick that shows inches or milimeters. A ruler, such as a king, is one who sets the rules. Some rules are made law, some are not. A speed of 50 miles an hour is a measurement. A decree that you must not exceed 50 miles an hour is a law.

So, there are rules of songwriting, but no laws. The rules or measurements are largely based on observation and analysis of songs that have gone before...songs that are critically or popularly acclaimed, or both.

These rules may be exceeded. Those songs are exceptions to the rule. Neither following nor exceeding the rules will guarantee success. Songs that exceed the rules and are successful are exceptional.

Rules are also defining. One can define a genre. For example, reggae. It is usually a tempo between andante and allegretto. It is a shuffle on the quarter note. It often has quarter note triplets added on turn arounds. The bass often uses the "one drop" meaning it is silent on the first beat. Now, some reggae songs do none of this. They are exceptional.

Again, neither following the rules nor exceeding the rules guarantee success. However, success in the market comes easier when the piece conforms to the genre and the current fashion. They follow the rules with occasional exceptions. Sometimes these are known as "the exception that proves the rule."

All the Best,
Mike

There are so many "rules" that you almost have to break some of them so you don't write the same song over and over again. I think many of them are less "rules" than they are conventions that people follow. I used to run an open mic and in my experience the more "conventional" songs flopped with the audience just as hard as structureless noise. What people wanted to hear was something that was different, but still very familiar sounding. I don't know if others have had a similar experience with audiences?

Now, if you're not writing for an audience then you can create whatever makes you happy, whether thats a song that fits all the conventions or structureless noise. Everything has its place!

I think you hit the nail on the head there, John.

Scott

I am pasting below the "rules" from a publisher named Screaming Tomato Music. Presumably they are looking for the next big hit and consider these important for that to happen. You can write whatever you like, however!

>Important Submission Tips

We welcome unsolicited submissions, and we listen to every CD submission that we receive. It may not always be that way, but right now it is. So if you send your music to us, it's going to be heard by a publisher. However, getting heard and getting a contract offer are two different things. We offer contracts on around 1.5 percent of the songs we hear, so it's obvious that we're only interested in great songs for our catalog. Here are some ways you can increase your chances when sending songs to us, or any publisher.

Song Quality. Our songs are like our children. We love them no matter what. And, we sometimes can't see that they're not as perfect as we think they are. Don't submit your song until you get some objective feedback on it. There are hundreds of quality people out there who offer affordable evaluations.

Ask yourself the following questions about your song:
1. How long is it? Anything over 3:30 is getting lengthy.
2. Who's going to sing it? Songwriting is great therapy. However, there's a difference between writing for yourself and creating something that is marketable. All genres are different, but a radio friendly artist won't normally sing a song that puts himself or herself in an unfavorable light.
3. How fast does your song get to the chorus? Generally, you've got about 30 seconds to get through the intro, the first verse and get to the chorus.
4. Does the chorus stand out? Make sure your chorus is unique from the verses and memorable. It's also a nice rule of thumb never to start the chorus on the same chord as the verse starts on. Also, rarely use progressive choruses.
5. How long are intros, outros, turnarounds and breaks? The intro and turnarounds shouldn't be longer than 4 bars. In a demo, instrumental breaks aren't necessary. If you include a break, guess what...Keep it short!
6. Is the structure simple? Like it or not, we're all creatures of habit. We like our music to fit the mold that we've been forming since we were kids. Simply, a song has a better chance of getting signed if it follows a common song structure.
7. Do the lyrics sound like something you would say? Write your songs conversationally. Don't use awkward inverted lines just to make them rhyme at the end. If you don't like the sound of your spoken lyrics, then setting them to music isn't going to make them any better.<

"Do the lyrics sound like something you would say? Write your songs conversationally. Don't use awkward inverted lines just to make them rhyme at the end. If you don't like the sound of your spoken lyrics, then setting them to music isn't going to make them any better"

When I was booking bands (back in the day), this is was one of the things that really turned me off a song and an artist if they did it frequently. Frankly, there are so many ways to word things in the English language that twisting something just to make it rhyme is lazy. Think of a way to word it that doesn't sound like a 5th grader who hasn't learned how to properly construct a sentence.

To clarify - I don't mean don't use big words or unusual phrasings, I mean don't twist a common phrasing into something Yoda-esque unless you have a damn good reason for doing so.

To clarify further - I love big words and songs about Star Wars would be awesome.

To clarify further, further - I am as guilty of doing this as the next guy. And believe me, I hate myself more for doing it than I hate other people for doing it!

Mean what you say you do, eh?

HiYa Mz Tracy..et al!

I tried posting my 2-cent's-worth the other day..guess the Other Thread, too..& it wouldn't post.

My humble POV is a Great Song follows only ONE Rule:

"Don't Be Boring."

I've heard 2:30 Songs that felt Too-Long..and there are some 5-Minute-Masterpieces that leave you Wanting More...

"Practice Makes Perfect"..is prolly Rule Number Two. Expect to pen some "Losers"...but you Better The Odds, the More You Write.

Ricky Nelson..in "Garden Party"..summed up what I'd call "Rule Number Three": "You can't please everyone..so you gotta please yourself."

Not-Un-Not-un-Nah-hah...

Beat Wishes, Big Hugs, Good Luck,
Stan