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Back.

It's basically this, Dan.

Man is inherently evil. We are prone to pride, lust, wrath, greed, gluttony, sloth and envy. This includes our world leaders. For this reason, our founders set up a government as a necessary evil, and tried to design it so it would intrude as little as possible. I like that.

Our Communist friends don't. They want to take what we do and distribute it among us. But they want to tell us just what it is we can keep and just who else will get it. That would be good if man were not inherently evil. Those at the top will always turn corrupt. That happens with our Capitalist friends as well, and it happens with our own government also. The founders recognized this.

Worst, to me as a Christian, our Communist friends have had a tendency to repress religion.

As to the flaw in your example, if you wish, I'll be happy to provide a detailed critique for a small fee. If you will send fifty dollars to our member Glynda who is in need, I will be more than happy to do this.

All the Best,
Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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Mike, You've made one good point so far. So I'm sending Glynda $50 to help her out in her time of need. But PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE spare me any rationalization about why it's good, even 'patriotic' for corporatist traitors to ship our manufacturing base and our future to the Chinese Communists. It's not. It's a testimony to how powerful their propaganda is that most Americans, like you, refuse to see what's right under your nose. While claiming to be anti-communist many Americans support them through allegiance to Judas Corporations. And how Orwellian is that?

Where's the old commie-hunter Joe McCarthy when we need him.


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Thanks you, Dan. God bless you.

All the Best,
Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

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Humm,
I wonder whatever happened to that song we were discussing? Nevermind. On to World Trade. You all should know that we trade with a lot of countries. Go to your local Grocrey store and look in the Wine Section. You will see Wine from a whole number of countries.

Now, a fact about trade with other countries. We get Product, they get Dollars. Those dollars can ultimantly only be spent in one place. Right here in the good ole US of A. True China can trade dollars with another country for product but in the end those dollars are returned in trade to the U.S.

Chicken Little used to worry about Japan buying up everything in site. Didn't work so well. Now they are howling about the debt to China. Not to worry. It will work it's self out.

Now if only our esteemed elected officials could get the Federal Debt under control...


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Dan
You have the right to hate capitalists and support communists if you chose.
But I don't understand your rational. On one hand you say you won't support the corporations who manufacture goods in Communist China yet you purchase their products. I offer you a way to combat that by purchasing Products made in America and you refuse to do so.
That makes no sense.
Since you refuse to purchase American made products does that mean you want the American businesses to fail? By those actions are you supporting the very companies you seem to hate?

I am just as guilty as others. I continue to buy products made in China. I do make some attempts to Purchase American made but it is very difficult. It is often simply a matter of finances. Other times a matter of convenience or the products simply are not available.
I remodeled my Kitchen. I made sure my new cabinets were American made with Material from America yet I bought Appliances made in Foreign countries because of convenience and cost. Does that make me a hypocrite? Maybe.
What makes it worse is my new Dishwasher and Microwave are both General Electric. The very company I complain about.

But at least I do make some attempt to not support these evil Corporatism's you seem to hate so much.

You asked how I can be patriotic yet support these evil capitalist? It seems to me you are actually the one who supports the evil capitalists.


Bill
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Bill, It's the corporations supporting the communists. Not me. That's not what I believe, it's what I SEE.

I understand why most Americans look away or refuse to acknowledge what their eyes see. It's a pretty bitter pill to swallow. After defeating communism in the Cold War we're being sold down the river to our enemies by the capitalists and capitalist system we thouht we were fighting to protect.

Judas capitalism, that's what it is.

Last edited by Dan Sullivan; 04/04/11 03:28 PM.

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Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
Those at the top will always turn corrupt. That happens with our Capitalist friends as well, and it happens with our own government also. The founders recognized this.


Bingo!

I think one of the reasons our country has done so well in the past is that these two groups were largely separate with largely separate interests. They are now becoming too close for my comfort.

Scott




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Why all the talk about capitalism and communism ? It's not 1953. And it's not about a system of government.

It's about those who over consume, wishing to buy their $0.50 cent pair of socks, and also not wishing to put in the labour in exchange for the commodity.

In any household, if you consume more than you produce through your own labour or commodities, you go broke.

Oh, but I guess we already know that.

cheers, niteshift

PS - are rednecks an exportable commodity ? *shrugs*

Last edited by niteshift; 04/04/11 03:51 PM.
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Dan,

I answered your question and responded to your thesis but you responded to everyone but me.

I especially would like a response to the rule all kids learn: Two wrongs don't make a right.

For someone angry at US Corp doing business with communists, you sure seem okay when the president of your dreams is cozy to communists AND terrorists (There's many reports, not on right wing blogs, but out of Bill Ayers own mouth, that he wrote Dreams of my father instead of Obama... if that is even a tiny bit true (i.e. he helped, edited, contributed or anything else) it proves Obama lied to all of us when he said he barely even knew Ayers and had little to no contact or connection to him in his life. "He was just a guy in the neighborhood." Funny.. my neighbors don't write my newsletters for me or my posts here.

Evil is evil. Just because someone else is evil doesn't justify you being evil.

Brian


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Brian, One thing I like about you is that you don't pull your punches. You passionately express and stick to your beliefs. Even when we disagree. I respect that.

As for Obama. In this thread I've twice denounced his unconstitutional war in Libya, once saying, "Brian, Many liberals have expressed displeasure with Obama's Libyan policy. You have one here on JPF who criticized it in song." That was a reference to my lyric "Marching to Tripoli," which lyric is a third instance of me criticizing the Commander-in-Chief.

I had earlier criticized his support for the Bush tax cuts on the rich, which was at least the 4th criticism I had made of him.
I believe that was in a song called "Thank you for my tax cut." Or something like that. I can't remember the name for sure.

And since I can't fully remember that, I don't expect anyone else to either, but it's all there on the record.

To make my position perfectly clear on Obama: He's been a huge disappointment to me. Promising hope and change he gave us more of the same. Except for a watered-down health care bill he has given us the same policies as Bush, domestically and in foreign policy. He's even used the same cast of crooked charactors on his economic team. I now see him as in league with the same corporatists who are destroying America.

As for "two wrongs don't make right." I agree with that old parable. You can't cancel out evil or wrong doing by responding in kind. It never works. It's outside the moral law.

The corporatists moved most of the manufacturing jobs to communist China and got richer. In the process, they sold America down the drain. Now we don't make things here (at least to the extent we once did) and millions are out of work. The social welfare net is collapsing and the debt is rising.

To me, that's black and white. To me, the Judas Corporatists have betrayed America. The fact they got trillions for it, rather than a meager 30 pieces of silver, only proves they're better businessmen than Judas ever was.



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Well,
I've said a time or two. Book your own life and then if you fail you have only yourself to blame. Corporations or Big Business or whatever it is makes the world more effecient. So weather they are in the U.S., the United Kingdom, India, China, Brazil or Tim Buc To they make the world a better place. Imagine if you wanted an Automobile and you had to make it all yourself. You might get it done in 500 years. All the things we enjoy today is the result of a lot of hard work.

China is beginning the long process of improving their lot in life. Be happy for them and realise it isn't a one way street.


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Hey Dan,

C'mon man, what makes you think that all US manufacturers should be in the US ? Or all Siberian manufacturers in Siberia ?

Businessmen do business. They're in the business of profits. The world has moved on from the industrial age. Aren't we now in the post industrial age ?

There are no borders anymore. Haven't been for a long time.

What's so great about US manufacturing anyway? Is it the unions that demand outragous wages to stand on a production line ? Maybe there are other folks in the world who do it better, sleeker, faster and cheaper, and whose work forces don't "demand" some preconcieved standard of living.

You'd think by what you're saying , that the US invented capatilism and the industrial age. Sorry to inform you that it's been around since the Silk Road and the British and Portugese trading ships in the far East, long before the US was even invented.

Trading nations and empires come and go. Sounds like you're just whing because the ultra-capatalists from both the US and Europe got it drastically wrong in the money stakes.

And you went along with it,... while the going was good, in an orgy of over consumerism.

It's time to pay the piper.

cheers, niteshift


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Niteshift, I can see where you're coming from so go ahead and defend the sweatshops and slave labor. Praise colonialism. I won't. Go ahead and repeat propaganda drilled into your head using euphemisms like "post-industrial age" and nonsense like "There are no borders anymore." I'm not buying it.

It's pretty plain to see you've been brainwashed. This capitalist driven race to the bottom in terms of wages and living conditions doesn't mean wer'e all trying to move to Australia.

Some of your arguments I can't even understand. "Sounds like you're just whing because the ultra-capatalists from both the US and Europe got it drastically wrong in the money stakes (sic)." What's that supposed to mean? Time to reboot your propaganda program.

I can assure you that the capitalists got everything they wanted in their deal with the devil. They're raking in trillions of dollars. That's the only component of the deal that interests them.

I note that you didn't comment on the unholy alliance between the capitalists and the communists. I'm not surprised. Neither the capitalists nor communists want the masses to think about that.

Nite, you also got it wrong when you said I went along with it. No, you and the slumbering masses you represent went along with it and are still defending the deal. I've been speaking out against it for a long, long time.

Time to pay the piper? Maybe so. There's no doubt the devil will be coming after his end of the bargain sooner or later.






Last edited by Dan Sullivan; 04/06/11 12:12 PM.

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Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
Well,
I've said a time or two. Book your own life and then if you fail you have only yourself to blame. Corporations or Big Business or whatever it is makes the world more effecient. So weather they are in the U.S., the United Kingdom, India, China, Brazil or Tim Buc To they make the world a better place. Imagine if you wanted an Automobile and you had to make it all yourself. You might get it done in 500 years. All the things we enjoy today is the result of a lot of hard work.

China is beginning the long process of improving their lot in life. Be happy for them and realise it isn't a one way street.


Sorry Ray could not let that one go....You as an extreme right winger should know that business is there to make a profit and they generally do that at the expense of the poor. Third world countries are the easiest targets that give them the most profits SObig biz exploits them to the max. To think they are there to "make the world a better place" is delusional or a downright lie.
It is also delusional to say that business makes the world more efficient......some of the worst health, safety and efficiency records are seen in big business. Profit is the only thing that they care about and will lay people off and re-locate if they think it will make an extra buck.
Why do so many UK companies operate call centres in India and sweat shops in third world countries making cheap goods rather than employ UK citizens. I know why..... but you probably think it is to make the world a better place.

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Nite there is a fine line between being competetive and sleeker and faster...AND using slave labour.....most of the big companies will have no problem using slave labour as long as it makes them more money....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade
This was set up to try to ensure that products are ethically produced. Why would the Adam Smith Institution (an extreme right wing think tank) oppose such an organisation? Well I will tell you cause they do not want to be fair or ethical. They want to exploit and make more money.

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Hey Jim,

Yes, I aggree that slave labour should not be tolerated.

I'd say, at one time it was a problem, ( I can only speak about the Far East ) but not so much these days. There's too much media attention involved. Sure it exists, but the countries where it does exist are really trying to stamp it out. It's bad for business, and bad for investment.

Dan and perhaps yourself, wish to go back to a manufacturing based econony. The western world has moved on from that.

As an example, Australia has very little manufacturing now. I can't buy an Oz made collared shirt, and soon I won't be able to buy Oz made socks or undies either. Yet we grow vast amounts of cotton.

Does it really matter which country manufactures the shirts ? If others wish to manufacture the shirts, and thus increase the general standard of living in another country, that's fine by me.

We have less then 5% unemployment here, so folks are obviously employed in other areas. Mining, hospitality, tourism, medicine, technology...... and the list goes on. Yet, at the same time, we could completely shut down the borders, dust off the manufacturing equipment and be totally self sufficient.

For what purpose ? National pride ?

I'm just trying to give Dan a concrete example where an economy doesn't have to be based around making more stuff that we don't need. I'd rather have my kids working in any of the above jobs, than standing on a production line.

That thinking is out dated, out moded, and has been proven to eventually fail.

cheers, niteshift

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Ha,Ha,
You amuse me "big" Jim. Businesses HAVE to make a profit or they wouldn't be able to stay in business. AND, believe it, or not, lots and lots and lots of people, that would never start a business are able to work because of it. Now expand your Puny Brain, Jim, if you had to make all your recording equipment, where would you be. You would probably still be in a cave trying to invent fire. But, somebody picked up a hollow bone and blew thru it and made a sound. Think about that for a minute Jim. OK stop now, we don't want to strain your brain too much.

Now think, Jim, from those humble beginnings many people began to invent things and invent things until you have a studio full of excellent recording equipment. AND, Big Jim, big businesses set up factories to make that product so you could record music, something that NEVER dawned on that cave man.

So, Big Jim, if you are going ti Bitch about the system, stop using the System. Go back to a cave, and look for a hollow bone.

And Big Jim, there is nothing wrong in being an extreme right winger, after all, it is the only game in town.

What is it Margaret Thatcher said, the trouble with Liberals is sooner or later they run out of other peoples money. I could use some extra money, got any Big Jim.

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 04/06/11 01:27 PM.

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Just came back around to see how it was going. I see that personal attacks are still encouraged in these political discussions.

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+1 to Kevin - This was an interesting political discussion until people started getting personal.

I would also encourage all of you to take a look at economic history from about 1700 on. Very little of this is "new." People get exploited, then they fight back, then people get exploited in a different way, then they fight back. This is not Obama's fault, or Bush's fault, or Clinton's fault or Bush the first's fault, its has been going for hundreds of years and it will change. Personal attacks are not going to help.

John

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Ray guess History was not one of your strong subjects at school. Nor was social skills. But hey you believe what you want to believe......misguided people like you have done more harm for the working man than anything else. No I will not go back to living oin a cave....I work hard for what I get...despite being exploited I do OK. That cannort be said for everyone. People get shafted all the time by crooked businesses..... Someone should try and protect them cause you and your like sure as hell wont.

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An interesting fact that has been lost in all the tired right-left rhetoric is that even in the sweatshops, those jobs are coveted because without them those people and the families they feed would die. Literally. So if choosing sweat shop or starvation, the sweat shop starts looking good. Our prisoners in the USA live far better than most people around the world. They have TV, free healthy meals, a variety of work they can do based on ability (including many of the US based telemarkers which are actually call centers set up in prisons), internet access, slightly limited but still....

No sides are all good, but some sides can be all evil. I'll take the most evil Capitalist against any version of communism that is FORCED on people. Any evil capitalist country is far better than any country with a dictator or with policies that entrap their people forever within their own borders with a never changing government (ala Libya, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, China, Russia.. etc.). Sure, Russia has lightened up a bit as has China, but they were both born by first killing 10's of millions until they'd beaten the fight out of those still living.

I would absolutely be all for a trade war, free societies against closed, democracies and republics against communists and dictators/royals. I think it would be clear which form of government worked better.

With Jim being such a leftist, I am surprised, he seemed like such a nice guy in person. And Scotland seemed more like anywhere USA than anyplace else we've visited except Central/Western Canada. (Eastern Canada has a very different vibe and viewpoint). France was also just like the USA as was Germany, which surprised us a lot. I think it's really free societies using capitalism at their core that works best. Can someone name a better communist or dictatorial country they'd rather live in?

Brian

PS: I am just ribbing Jim.. no offense intended for those who don't know the nature of our long relationship. I am actually enjoying this friendly exchange of very different viewpoints. Let's please all work to keep it informative and friendly.


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Just for info Brian us lefties are really pretty good people all around. PITY same cannot be said about you righties who seem quite nice people but your policies would make Genghis Khan blush but funny you also came across as a nice bloke.... LOL. It is the greedy redneck extremists that give America a bad name and spoil it for decent Americans.....you being a product of capitalism would not understand anything left as it historically has been taught as evil. But hey the remarks and abuse shown By Mr Strode typifies the ignorance shown by politically uneducated people indoctrinated into right wing ideology from a tainted history book.
Just for info any extreme whether left or right is evil and some capitalist dictatorships are the worst history has ever known.....so to say which you prefer is silly. I am not a communist and never will be I am a true socialist....for those of you too ignorant to know.... there is a big difference.
I believe in equal opportunities and cooperative ownership......it would take too long to explain properly but basically it is like capitalism rather than communism but the profits are shared with the workforce and no company can make obscene profits.... these would be heavily taxed and the money used for health and social benefits.....I believe that everyone capable should work for a living BUT those who are too old or too ill to work should be looked after by those better off physically and financially. Simply put a fair days wage for a fair days work and the sick get taken care of for free.....the difference between those who have too much and those who have too little is too wide and the capitalist's goal is to make it even wider......I just want it narrowed. It is obscene that some people have more than they can spend in a lifetime and others starve to death.
It is also worth noting that some of the very rich countries with huge resources have some of the worst poverty known to man.....this is due to undemocratic dictators..usually right wing sponsored.
The Middle East and North African countries are fine examples .....most of their puppet leaders were helped to power by USA and Britain and they were given a good supply of weapons to turn on their own people to suppress them and keep power. In return we got oil and other natural resources.
Now we are suffering because of some pretty dodgy bankers who did some pretty dodgy dealing....it is not our fault yet we have to pick up the tab...so where does capitalism work there...surely they should be made to pay for their mistakes yet they still receive billions in subsidy and bail outs...they also still get paid bonuses......for nearly bankrupting half the world.

PS Scotland is a beautiful country and so is America...if it wasn't for all those Americans living there.

PPS I know of some people who are sending a truck to Japan filled with supplies to give them to the poor people who survived the earthquake and tsunami.
I believe Ray Strode is organising a similar truck filled with supplies so he can sell them to the people who survived the earthquake and tsunami.

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Big Jim, I always enjoy reading your take on things and often end up chuckling.


Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

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Rednecks are not nationalist conservatives per definition, Jim. What you portray is a prejudiced myth we like to reproduce over here, maybe this book is for you, Jim http://www.amazon.com/Rednecks-Bluenecks-Politics-Country-Music/dp/1595580174 ? Well.. maybe not :-) But you could listen to Rodney Crowell http://rodneycrowell.com/ . He has a crowd in Nashville too wink

Anyway, you can still love freedom, love your country, homecooked meals and a shiny new Corvette, on the left wing, I believe. So, even after chosing sides, there can be two ways about it..

I think life politics is neccesary, but not party politics. I've yet to see anyone involved in official politics take interest in anything true, beyond their sorry ass lobbyist point of views.

I'm often surprised how often and quickly the communist card is drawn in the US, though. Left wing over here means social democrat liberalism, and right wing here now is much closer to the fascism the Italian dictator Mussolini advocated; a society where the state teams up with the economic elite, and leaves everyone else in the dust.

There are no communist parties at all in most European countries, but there are quite a few dangerous right wing radicals, who would love to repeat the German tragedy from second world war! The current strength of (radical) right wing politics in Europe is the biggest danger we have, and sorry to say.. your Chicago Economists are to blame!

And neither the US nor Scot landscapes can beat anything Norwegian. PERIOD grin

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Norway is OK if it wasn't for all those Norwegians.

PS......ASKING ME.....TO READ A BOOK....are you serious?

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I go to a grocery store sometimes that is frequented by Mexicans. I've noticed in their Mexican section stuff has the name in Spanish. You can find the same stuff over in another section with English names. For example, there is sausage and flour with Mexican names and sausage and flour with English names. It seems the Mexican stuff ounce for ounce is higher. Why is this? I think it's because the Spanish name attracts the Mexicans, who may not even be able to pronounce the English name, and then the Mexicans don't realize they are actually paying more for the same item. This is evil in my eyes and is a violation of the Biblical principle of "don't have unequal scales."

I've been called more right wing that Reagan but there is an evil in America called "greed." I may be an extremist when I say all companies will take advantage of customers and employees without legislation but it's just as extreme to say companies will take care of customers and employees without legislation.

Someone above mentioned telemarketers in prison. Companies don't hire them to rehabilitate them, they hire them to make money. They don't worry about the person outside prison who could use that job. This is also shown by how many cutbacks there are in low wage positions vs. cutbacks in high paying positions.

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Big corporations are not moral or immoral. They are amoral. Their goal is to make money for their shareholders. If we know and understand that, we can develop a system where that drive for profit doesn't crush people's lives or affect our political process unfairly. There's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to earn money. The problem is when we try to ignore that corporations are not in it for you, or me, or for anybody else - they're in it for themselves. The libertarian philosophy is that if EVERYONE only looks out for themselves, it will all balance out and everyone will be OK.

But I think even the most conservative among us, who are most likely quite religious (I'm a Catholic myself) believe that a healthy society is not based on individual greed and only looking out for one's self.


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There is nothing wrong with making a reasonable profit.....however people are generally selfish and get too greedy, ethics go out the window, folk get ripped off and that is wrong.
When someone makes too much profit it is usually at the expense of somebody else. So they in turn overcharge and somebody else suffers and so on...it is a downward spiral and the poor, the sick and defenceless at the bottom of the pile suffer most.
We are a sick society for allowing this to happen....and it happens all over the world.

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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
There is nothing wrong with making a reasonable profit.....however people are generally selfish and get too greedy, ethics go out the window, folk get ripped off and that is wrong.
When someone makes too much profit it is usually at the expense of somebody else. So they in turn overcharge and somebody else suffers and so on...it is a downward spiral and the poor, the sick and defenceless at the bottom of the pile suffer most.
We are a sick society for allowing this to happen....and it happens all over the world.



Like the oil companies. There is no shortage of oil, but because there is a possibility of a shortage because of wars in the middle East, these companies drive the price up, make billions off the average working person, and governments let them do it.


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Nice, in theory, but then the folks who regulate the corporations become greedy for power, they become corrupt and pretty soon it's "meet the new boss...same as the old boss" and they figure out ways to stay in power, such as picking and choosing which corporations they will cozy up with (does GE ring a bell here?)

I agree with Andrew when he says, "But I think even the most conservative among us, who are most likely quite religious (I'm a Catholic myself) believe that a healthy society is not based on individual greed and only looking out for one's self." But again, I suspect he's looking for a non-religious government to regulate that greed. Again, it leads to greed for power and it leads to corruption.

There is only one cure for greed: God. Looking to human, social answers you only end up with fat cats telling each other how fat they can be and jockeying for position. It has been so since the beginning. So, I like the idea of a government that is limited and a buyer's market. Let the market give us choice. Don't let government choose the winners and losers (GE, GM, big banks, people unable to buy health insurance from a neighboring state, etc.) that only leads to corruption and collusion.

OK, now I've got some work to do. Lots of poor folks here to oppress. smile





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All Right,
I admit I have been having some fun here at Big Jim and Dan's expense. Now some of you say the Big Companies are Greedy. Well Bernie Madoff was greedy for sure. I'm not sure I agree that all Big Companies are greedy. They do have expenses for sure.

Now you talk about those Squirrels, they are greedy. I used to have a Grove of Pecan trees. And Squirrels. The Squirrels would collect their "Share" even if I got any or not. One year along the road where I used to live I found the ditch just full of Pecans. The Squirrels were getting rid of the old Pecans they had hoarded so they had room for the next crop! So talk about greedy all you want to but I think it is people's as well as animals nature to be somewhat greedy. I tried to get Big Jim to send me half of those Microphones he is hoarding but you think he would part with any of them? No, absolutly not. Now I ask you, is Big Jim greedy, or not.


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Squirrels are dumb Ray. They forget where they hide the nuts. Though I have one friendly squirrel (named Louie) that eats nuts from my hand. No take-out orders for him. He eats the nuts on the spot.

I can tell Louie from the rest of the squirrels. He has a flat tail that drags on the ground when he hobbles along. Must have been injured.

Okay, now you guys can get back to business.

John smile

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Wow Ray! There are poor children in Africa who don't have any microphones at all. I didn't know big Jim was oppressing poor starving children. Shameful. smile


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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Oh, Big Jim won't share his microphones with children, African or otherwise.

Cos they're all mediocre and sing like crap ! grin

cheers, niteshift

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The reason kids sound awful singing is cause they try to eat the mic...the correct distance for singin is usually about four inches away. "Let them EAT cake"
I am not greedy, Mics spread disease so I am fussy about who gets to use my mics as I do not have very many to spare.

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Corporations are not evil. They are just people who are organized to do business. They have no choice but to send their manufacturing to places where the costs are lower and where the bureaucracy does not prevent them from doing business if that is what their competition is doing, because they would otherwise go out of business.

If we do not want all our manufacturing jobs to go to Asia, we must put a tariff on imports. If we do not isolate ourselves and protect our lifestyle, the world will move towards being a homogeneous place where the first world countries and the third world countries will eventually all be at the same level which will be better for the third world and much worse for the first world.

Our problem is with our government that believes it must support the lowest common denominator voters, which is everybody who buys socks. It will not stand up for businesses that add value and provide jobs. The government in its infinite wisdom puts untold barriers in front of manufacturing firms and supports the bureaucracies that do it - OSHA, EPA, Workers Comp, Duty to Warn, lawsuits filed by people who do not have to pay the lawyers unless they win........ all huge bureaucracies that are out of control making laws and rules that serve no useful purpose other than to provide themselves with jobs.

Filing lawsuits, shuffling papers, and flipping burgers does not count as adding value when compared to mining ore and converting it into useful products. It's a house of cards.


Colin

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Quote
Nice, in theory, but then the folks who regulate the corporations become greedy for power, they become corrupt and pretty soon it's "meet the new boss...same as the old boss" and they figure out ways to stay in power, such as picking and choosing which corporations they will cozy up with (does GE ring a bell here?)


This only happens because we let it happen by not implementing campaign finance reform. What do you think is going to happen when you let public officials take money from corporate donors in unlimited, secret amounts? Again, corporations are amoral. If they CAN spend money to lobby for tax cuts, loopholes, lesser regulation, subsidies (etc) they're going to. The solution is pretty simple, and it's one that many people in BOTH parties agree with: we should have public campaign financing.

Think about this for a moment. The majority of corporations in America pay no taxes. Do you understand that? NO taxes. In fact, some of the very biggest corporations earning billions of dollars in PROFIT pay no taxes, and in fact get tax credits instead. This is exactly what happened with GE in 2010. This loss of tax revenue alone costs the American people billions of dollars per year. You can't argue with this - it's simply fact. These big companies earned lots of money and paid no taxes on it because they've lobbied so hard for tax breaks, tax loopholes and government favoritism. Are they evil? No! Just amoral, as I said.

So let's say public campaign financing would cost the American people, I don't know, a billion dollars per year. That might sound like a lot of money, but if it meant that corporations (and other special interests) could no longer unduly influence our legislative process, then we'd actually be SAVING billions of dollars per year.

Who can argue with that? No Republicans I know of say they support special interests, and they're always going on about Obama's "wall street friends", so if you REALLY don't believe that special interests have a place in government, then you should agree with public campaign financing.

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Andrew, You're pretty smart. I've met smarter people than me, and maybe smarter than you, who disagree. I don't think any fix that the smartest men in the world could come up with would stop corrupt, power hungry people from finding a way to "game" the system. The only fix is God.





You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

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-niteshift

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Hey Colin,

I can't for the life of me, understand why yourself, and a few other posters here, want to keep an antiquated manufacturing based system.

As I said in a previous post, we here in Oz have virtually no manufacturing left. It's all gone to Asia. Yet, our unemployment rate today, went DOWN to 4.9%, which means in reality, that virtually no one is out of a job. The concentration is focusing on higher value added "commodities".

You seem to think it's all about producing "things". It used to be, but no longer. We farm "things" out to others, and in doing so, provde incomes to those who which once didn't have them, and increase the standard of living to those that didn't previouly know what a standard of living was. It's called lifting everyone up by their boot straps.

You want tarrifs ? Why ? Because you wish to support and encourage lazyness ?

Australian wine is better than Californian wine. New Zealand wine is even better. Better than French ( who are absolutely getting the shits with NZ )

So what do you do ? Place tarrifs on things, so that the better product does not succeed, and the "dumb" consumer must get a second rate product at a higher price ?

If Oz ( which is my country of choice by the way, not my birth place ) can get it right, and move on, then why can't the US ?

We have virtually no manufacturing sector here, yet can freely trade around the world. And no one is crying protectionalism.

I guess, if you live in a country where everyone is given a fair go, where the government doesn't spend more than it earns ( we have a balanced budget here ), where an immigrant can make a go of it, and where work is valued, then things are Ok.

Sure, it's not perfect, but a lot of lessons could be learned just about how to be decent to others, and not always think about yourself.

cheers, niteshift

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Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
Andrew, You're pretty smart. I've met smarter people than me, and maybe smarter than you, who disagree. I don't think any fix that the smartest men in the world could come up with would stop corrupt, power hungry people from finding a way to "game" the system. The only fix is God.





But that only works if everyone believes in her smile

I still think the only practical fix is to make sure that every person in a corruptible position has to butt heads with someone in an equally corruptible position who has opposing interests. smile

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Andrew
For once I agree with you 100%.

Only questions I have on your thoughts in the last post is;
Who is the "We" you refer to in the opening
Quote
This only happens because we let it happen by not implementing campaign finance reform.

Or the "You" in
Quote
What do you think is going to happen when you let public officials take money from corporate donors in unlimited, secret amounts?


Because it sure as heck ain't me. smile
I have been calling for 100% public election financing for years.
And every candidate gets the same amount.
You say it might cost a Billion? Obama will probably top $1 Billion alone in his reelection bid.
And make it a felony for anyone to influence an election in any way.


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Nite
Every Country goes through these phases. Not just these but it is the idea
Agricultural, industrial, Service.

It's a normal process.
China is in the industrial phase now. America is in the Service phase.
Part of America's problem is we haven't adjusted yet. It is taking longer than it should. But we will catch up.


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How many campaign financing reforms do you want? Jeez,there is one about every two-three years, McCain-Finegold being the latest. They always just shift to another form of contributing. If your lively hood is affected by laws, and you have money to do it, you are going to contribute to affect that. Everyone is a special interest. Right now Unions are the ones on the prowl and in the streets. They spend about a billion dollars a year. The left has theirs, the right has theirs. The right just usually spends their own money.The left spends everyone else's money and complains about everyone who spends their own.

But the entire system is a collection of special interests. If you believe in anything YOU are a special interest too.

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Hey Bill,

Thank God ! I thought I was loosing the plot for a minute.

I had my US buds pegged as behind the eight ball, and wishing to stay there also.

The US and Oz are very similair. We just get things done a little quicker here, due to a smaller population and a willingness to move on, above the rabble.

Just like writing songs. KISS...... Keep It Simple Stupid.

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niteshift,

I have nothing against third world countries improving themselves - just not at our expense.

There is a large percentage of the population who are incapable of doing much beyond simple tasks due to lack of intelligence or education or both. If those tasks are exported and everyone here must generate code, then those people are left without work.

And then there is the dependence on potentially unfriendly nations for the essentials of life. Already our oil prices skyrocket when Libya takes a dump. What happens when China decides they do not want to supply us because their own people are now wealthy enough to support their economy? We are left out in the cold with no facility to manufacture the widget we need to keep from freezing or starving. How smart is that?


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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
How many campaign financing reforms do you want? Jeez,there is one about every two-three years, McCain-Finegold being the latest. They always just shift to another form of contributing. If your lively hood is affected by laws, and you have money to do it, you are going to contribute to affect that. Everyone is a special interest. Right now Unions are the ones on the prowl and in the streets. They spend about a billion dollars a year. The left has theirs, the right has theirs. The right just usually spends their own money.The left spends everyone else's money and complains about everyone who spends their own.

But the entire system is a collection of special interests. If you believe in anything YOU are a special interest too.

MAB


But none of these campaign finance reform acts have truly eliminated special interests, and the way to do that is by not allowing ANYBODY to contribute. The public - as a whole - finances elections. Again, this would be costly, but not nearly as costly as the subsidies, tax cuts and loopholes that big corporations (and unions, and other special interests) take advantage of.

Lawmakers should respond to their constituency. If they no longer receive any donations, then there is no reason for them to bow to special interests. Simple as that. They would only have reason to answer to the people they represent.


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There is a large percentage of the population who are incapable of doing much beyond simple tasks due to lack of intelligence or education or both.


Are you kidding me ?

It sounds to me that you think a sizable proportiion of your countrymen are stupid. I know that not to be the case.

How can I put this ? I'm thinking here, just for a moment.....

I'll say it by example.

Oz used to be, in the 70's and 80's, a great manufacturing nation. We grew it, processed it, made it. Then in the 90's , the smart manufactuers saw it easier to ship it offshore. The industry complained, and many "true blue Ozzies" said "It's the death of our Nation".

It didn't happen.....

Through natural progression, folks moved into different areas, and generally speaking, moved up along the food chain. Better education, better standard of living.

At the same time, Asian neighbours have done better for themselves. Investment in small communities, where the unemployment rate was 30% or more, relieves poverty and makes life better.

What are you scared of Colin ? You think that "they" are going to take what you have ? No. "They" are simply raising themselves up. Not to your detriment, and not to anyones elses either.

You can't wish for people to do better in life ? And do it without taking away anything from you ?

I'm soory to inform you that the "us" and "them" cultre has long receeded. I don't know what you define as us and them.

Maybe it's an Ozzie, who will kick your damn ass at business anyday.

cheers, niteshift

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Geoff,

I am retired so I have no dog in that fight, however I see a lot of unemployment, homelessness and poverty around this area. It has lead to crime, harassment, large numbers of people in the prison system, and many other problems with a root cause of no work for people who at one time could have been factory hands. The US is becoming progressively more divided into the haves and the have nots. A recent example of job loss is 500 people being laid off at a huge accounting firm in Tampa because their work (not manufacturing) is now being handled by a call center in India.

It is easy for an economist to say that we are all better off in the long run when widgets are being made in Asia and we will do the hard stuff, but that does not ease the burden on the people who have lost their house and are living under a bridge.

You mention that folks are getting a better education now in Oz which is great, but ours is getting worse by the minute.....not so much because of the schools but because of kids being raised in troubled homes with nobody to look up to. It's like a cancer.


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


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YOUSE GUYS--

TIS STILL 'BOUT THE MUSIC--I'M EXCITED PLAYING THROUGH A GOOD OLD AMERICAN FENDER TWEED AMP SOUND--JUST CREAMY ENOUGH TO GIVE THAT EXCITING SOUND--I HAVE A LOT OF AMERICAN PARTS I'VE DUG OUT OF THE JUNK PILES OR PEOPLE HAVE GIVEN ME--I LIKE OLD AMERICAN, MOST THINGS-- THEY WERE BUILT BACK THEN--I HAVE A "CHAMPION JUICER" MADE IN THE '50'S, IT STILL WORKS LIKE NEW, AND THEY'RE STILL MADE IN CALIFORNIA THE SAME DESIGN--

A LOT OF OUR EVERYDAY ITEMS ARE MADE IN SOME OTHER COUNTRY--THESE ARE ALL THROW AWAYS--PAPER AND PLASTIC--WHO WILL COLLECT AN OLD IPOD--I HAVE OLD TUBE RADIOS--

THERE IS ALWAYS--"THE REST OF THE STORY" AS PAUL HARVEY WOULD SAY--EVERYTHING NOW IS OBSOLETE BY THE TIME YOU GET IT HOME--PAPER AND PLASTIC WITH A LITTLE ALMOST COPPER WIRE IN THE AC CORD--

I HAVE A 1946 VALCO TUBE AMP THAT STILL HAS THAT KILLER TUBE AMP SOUND. I HAVE A "MIGHTY MOUSE" DECAL ON THE CABINET--HAD TO REPLACE THE SPEAKER WHEN IT WAS 55 YEARS OLD--I HAVE A 30 YEAR OLD JENSEN THAT HAS KEPT HER GOING A WHILE LONGER

I BOUGHT A 'TUT TAYLOR' (3 GRAND) RESONATOR GUITAR MADE IN NASHVILLE IN 2001--IT IS STILL JUST LIKE NEW--MAYBE A LITTLE WEAR AND TEAR--

I STILL HAVE A '62 TELE, THAT HAS THAT SOUND--HAD TO REPLACE ONE OF THE PICKUPS--DAN IT HAS THAT SPARSE BLUZ SOUND--

WHEN I WAS A KID--A COKE WAS A NICKEL--LOOK AT WHAT ONE COSTS NOW--ONE DAY WHEN YOU ALL GET A LITTLE OLDER--A COKE MAY BE FIVE BUCKS--IF THEY SHIP THEM FROM CHINA--DIET DRINKS WILL BE MORE--

I BELIEVE IN INDEPENDENCE--LIKE THE PIONEERS--IN NYC YOU HAVE TO SLEEP ON A PARK BENCH TO GET CLOSE TO NATURE--IT BOILS DOWN TO CHOICES--WHAT EVER STROKES YOUR TASTE--

IF YOU GET BACK TO NATURE--YOU ARE INTERTWINED WITH ANALOG--THE COUNTRY--NOT THE DIGITAL WORLD--I'M HAPPIER CLOSE TO NATURE, NOT HAVING THE LATEST OF EVERYTHING--THE OLDER I GET, THE MORE I MAKE DO WITH USED AND HAND-ME-DOWNS--I GAVE MY BROTHER-IN-LAW MY OLD D-28 MARTIN, BECAUSE I DIDN'T PLAY IT ANY MORE (NO PICK-UP)--GOT A CHEAPER ONE MADE IN NAZARETH, PA, WITH A PICK-UP BUILT IN--

BIG BIZ HAS MADE IT EASY TO HAVE THINGS THAT ARE NEW--BUT DO THEY REALLY MAKE YOU HAPPIER?

IN MOST CASES PROBABLY NOT--GLOBAL MARKETS WILL CONTINUE TO GROW,
REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE DO--SO IT GETS BACK TO CHOICES--TIGHTENING THE BELT--NOT DRIVING AS MUCH--EATING MORE AT HOME--WATCHING VHS MOVIES THAT AREN'T AS SHARP AS DVD'S-- LET'S ME USE MY IMAGINATION.

ONE THING I LEARNED MAJORING IN BIZ IN COLLEGE--IT'S NOT HOW MUCH MONEY YOU MAKE--IT'S HOW MUCH YOU HAVE LEFT--BIG BIZ DESIGNS WAYS TO SEPARATE US FROM OUR MONEY--THEY REALLY WANT ALL OF WHAT YOU HAVE--WE MUST FIND WAYS TO SURVIVE WITH LESS--GROWING UP IN AN ORPHANAGE, TAUGHT ME MANY THINGS ABOUT SURVIVAL WITH LITTLE MONEY-- AND I THINK I'M BETTER FOR IT--THOUGH I'M ALWAYS HAVING TO SORT THROUGH MY OLDER ITEMS--LIKE A MAC SE-30--A 70'S VANDERBILT
UNIVERSITY - BAUSCH AND LOMBE MICROSCOPE--AND AN ASTATIC CRYSTAL MICROPHONE FROM THE 60'S-----WELL!

IF YOU ARE STILL WITH ME--MAYBE DOWN DEEP, WE ARE LIKE THINKERS--MAYBE NOT--CHOICES!!!!!!!!

Mackie

Last edited by Mackie H.; 04/08/11 01:06 AM.
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Mackie, You're a modest man, but I suspect a big reason why that old telecaster sings the Bluz so well can be found in the hands of the that old Bluzman playing it.

Last edited by Dan Sullivan; 04/07/11 09:31 PM.

Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

https://dansullivan2.bandcamp.com

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/dansullivan2
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