JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum about to take a leap, advice wanted

in the time i have involved myself in jpf i have seen alot of postings regarding the various internet opportunies for selling music. this has stabbed my curiosty to the extent that i want to get in on it. my computer skills are really not good, knowledge grossly lacking. but i know i can learn. so i am going to throw myself into it and have started putting together an album of 12 songs and have been reading up on stuff related to this. i realize everyone is doing this and to expect to make substancial monetary gains may (or may not) be unrealistic, BUT, any income from my music is good income in my book. so, i am hoping some kind souls here on jpf will be willing to give me some tentitive advice that will possibly speed my way a bit speedier and smooth the road for this pilgrim about to leap into the world of music cyberspace. i may not always understand the language but i am primed to learn, just hoping for some good powder so as not to end up just a flash in the pan. any good advice is good advice to me and will be appreciated.

cheers, dmk

dmk,

Don't know if you want my advice but I will offer a few suggestions I do with my own career and those of people I work with:

#1. Make sure each song fits, is audience responsive and tested out.
Perform live quite a bit, performing the potential songs for your project. No use recording something that as soon as you record it, you think "What the Hell was I thinking?"

#2. Write a lot, record a little.
Studio time is money and WAY too many people try to do these large rambling "Vanity projects" that cost too much and never recoup any where near what it costs to record.

I would suggest doing a smaller project, six or eight songs, (6 or 8 pack) that the industry is going toward. Even the major studios and labels are doing this now. Save money on recording and put it into promotion, video, etc. Msot people only listen to the first two or three songs anyway.

#3.Make sure you have "targets" for your music. Have a regular live performance schedule so people can be exposed to your product. Expect to give away about half of what you produce. Promotion is everything.

#4. Keep your packaging simple. This is where you can get eaten alive. CD BABY and others can do smaller runs, and packageing that is enviromentally friendly and less waste. Don't put all the song lyrics on there. A simple two or three page layout should be sufficient, with contact info, credits and any pertinate information. Again, people don't read that stuff anymore. Less is more.

VERY IMPORTANT: Keep your runs low. Unless you are a HUGE draw, doing hundreds of live dates a year, on major tours, etc. you are not going to sell a lot of product. People think "Hey everybody is going to buy this, and make the mistake of selling twenty or thirty copies on a CD relase party (and giving away 50) is going to be indicative of sales figures. You are more likely to sell two or three every four or five gigs.
Get 200 copies at first. Sell those, order more.

#5. Do an inexpensive video instead of six more songs.
You Tube is the primary vehicle for most artists now. We are nmo longer in an audio generation. Have it on your web site, You Tube, search engines. It will also serve as a booking vehicle.

#6. Keep your expectations reasonable.
Most music, despite all our best efforts, is now FREE. If you develop a loyal fan base, they will pay for what you have, but the general public views you as just another writer/artist trying to give them something they already have too much of.

#7. Make sure whatever you record is recorded well. Don't skimp on quality. You never know where it will end up and there is nothing worse than getting one of those precious radio interviews and cringing from something that sounds amateur on the radio.

#8. Do your homework before.
Shop around for studios and musicians. Get a good deal. Make sure you have people you like and want to work with you over and over again.

#9. Take your time.
You don't have to record it all at one time. Most people who do this well record three songs at a time (major labels do one song over a period of days) instead of a huge 6-10 song session. Can give you time to reflect, fix mistakes and move foward methodically.

#10. Make it good because once it is out there, it is always out there. Think about what you want to have out there two three years for now. Recordings have a way to come back on you.


Good luck.

MAB

Marc's got the Nuts-&-Bolts there...

Lemmie Add you might consider going by a NAME here, instead of 3 Initials...& fill in a LOT more Blanks on the Info Page.

This ISN'T the Business to "Be Shy" in.

Good Luck with Your Leap, Amigo!
Best Wishes & a Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

Very much so. People tend to want to help their friends. Doing initials only until people get to know you is a way to keep people shy of offering help.

MAB

hi marc, first i want you to know that YOUR advice is VERY highly regarded. (been checking you out on youtube, LESS IS MORE, really enjoyed it!!!) next, wow. lots of stuff to think about and reflect on. i will be coming back to this often to reflect. finally thank you so much sir for taking time to offer this advice. right now various circumstances(mostly no cash) keep me from implimenting some of your advice, but some i can do, and will. if i don't do something in a direction like this i will pack it up and just quit. that's where i'm at, gotta do something other than set in this room and yodel n strum to the walls and jpf. love it here but need more. thanx again.

have a great day, DMK

hi again, stan and marc...i didn't realize that! ok how bout, just my first name, i've been using the dmk thing totally out of LAZY.

thanx again, cheers, david

David, (now that I know your first name):

Present a FULL "YOU" to the people you want to buy into you, (advice, customers, etc), giving your full name, not just another David. At least make up a stage name if you are not proud of yours.

Have FUN!!!

David,

The limited budgets are what we all deal with, including the major labels. They are doing less and less with artists now and expecting the artists to deliver more themselves. A friend of mine is a producer on the West Coast and attended a conference recently featuring one of the top Record label executives int he country recently.

He said that starting this year, his label (which is the top label in the country) will no longer be signing anyone that doesn't come from reality television or has a HUGE existing fan base. (Why there IS reality television). Financial reasons are the main reason. Artists now have to do all the ground work themselves.

What this means is that you have to do it yourself. Small and a little bit at a time.

There have been interesting financing efforts by some artists.

Some artists have hosted special "fundraisers" for their projects. Inviting friends, family, etc. for a special show, where everyone donates $20 or whatever. Special acknowledgments can be done. Special copies of the CD, T-shits, etc.

One independent artist (who's name escapes me, but she had a medium hit a few years back) invited special donors ($1000 and up) to spend a few days with her in New York City. They had dinner, a tour of the city and then sang on the CD recording. She raised around $50,000 for it.

Having shows that dedicate a certain percentage of each gig dedicated to the project. Having a tip jar and a good "bedside manner" with your audience could help this.

Co-writing songs. Having someone to help share expenses by having their songs included are a good idea. Or recording other people's songs pos
sibly to their existing tracks.

In the people I produce, they are not just doing songs for their own projects, but also to pitch to the industry, show off their overall catalogue, have on their web sites, etc. There is not one use for a song or project.

Finding funding is one of the first most important aspects of doing anything. Has nothing to do with quitting or anything. Just part of the cost of doing business.

MAB

David, No advice from me since I know nothing about the music performing business. MAB and Daubert and some of the other practicing musicians here are the experts in that field. I'll just say you got talent and heart and good luck as you head out on your journey! And thanks again for your take on "Maria's song." Helluva job in my book.

Marc has pretty well covered it but I might reemphasize a couple things---Make sure you're "In the ball park"--competitive.
I see people spending considerable money on a C D and , as Marc said, putting out a big run and they're not anywhere, "near" the ball park. (And don't depend on family and friends to tell you, they "lie" or they're "prejudiced")

The other thing is co writing--Some people don't want to share what they make, What co writing usually amounts to is sharing expenses as mentioned ,not sharing profits.

Nevertheless if you wanta' give it a whirl --Go for it!! and good luck

Hi David:

Before you head off in a dozen different directions... consider first a critical evaluation of your music... writing skills, playing talent, vocal ability... or if you don't fit into the above categories, the ability to orchestrate all of that and more into a sellable product... in this case, an album of your songs.

Be certain that your circle of friends (or family members) are not just trying to placate your feelings about your music or songs. Having a trusted mentor or advisor "on your team" is crucial... unless you already know and understand all of this musical mumbo-jumbo. Sometimes, those who have the moxy to tell you the truth are really your best friends... no matter how painful it may be.

If, in your heart of hearts, you know you are ready, your music is top notch and it's time to take the plunge... consider an initial album release of 8 to 10 songs (hopefully the same genre) and with a good mix of uptempo versus ballad tempo songs.

The next part gets a little dicey! If you sing and play and can record your own material... and the end result is still very marketable music... then you might consider a test album with CDBaby.

The outlay would be considerably less than going the studio route... and most importantly (unless you are covered up in tons of money) consider a "digital only" album. In other words, don't spend money and time printing up a bunch of CDs, buying cases, labels, packaging materials, etc. No shipping required except for the inital album you'll be sending CDBaby or whomever you choose.

If you decide to explore this method... be absolutely sure your Digital Source is well connected with iTunes and that your music will be available via that powerful source. They still control about 75% or more of the digital market. (The teenage iPod crowd.)

If your music is classical or instrumental only... all bets are off! I don't have the foggiest notion how you "climb that mountain."

All BS aside, I have had two albums with CDBaby and they did a reasonably good job for me with the material they had to work with. In essence, I had what they call "buck fever" and got my songs "out there" way too soon. (I had advisors who were heavy on the praise and light on the quality of constructive cricticism and the end result was a two album disaster.)

Sure, I made a little money but the end result was not a good experience. I ended up "pulling my two digital albums from the shelves" simply because I recognized that the problem was ME! I did not possess the chops needed to pull this challenge off. Hindsight is always 20/20 so be sure you're absolutely ready before you proceed in doing anything other than writing great material, working on your musical and vocal chops... and learning the ropes of this convoluted and highly competitive market.

Sorry if I sound negative. My advice is intended to save you the horrible experience I imposed upon myself. Here's wishing you the very best of success and happiness in your musical endeavors.

Regards,

Dave Rice

I am not sure if you are planning to record at home using your own studio, but if you are, you might want to look at the following page. There is a lot of good info. Be advised that it is not something you will learn to do well quickly.

Tweak's guide

On the other hand, there are lots of decent home studios around and you can get a good recording done by someone else pretty economically these days. Check your local Craigslist.

As the others have said above, marketing and promotion are of the essence. It is possible to get your great CD on CD Baby, Amazon, iTunes, etc. and not make a single sale.

When I had been in Nashville about a year I would always meet these characters trying to sidle up next to me for whatever reason. Wanted to be in my rounds, pitch songs to me, whatever. I was kind of "The new star quarterback on campus" for a while.

This one guy kind of hooked into me and came around all the time. He booked shows at the Bluebird and asked me to be in them. He booked a lot of things and I was always his "live wire." The thing about him was that he ALWAYS had a pretty healty opinion. Of himself.

He was constantly hawking his CD and complaining that he couldn't sell any in Nashville. I had been there a couple of years and OF COURSE I knew he wasn't going to sell any in town. But he would play live and always thought he was just about to hit paydirt with this very expensive CD he had produced.

About two years went by of doing a lot of shows and he one day asked me to come over and write. I got there and we sat around having coffee. I asked him "How his CD sales were going." He kind of got this grin and said, "Wanna see?" I said "Sure." He had me stand up.

He pulled back the sheet and cushions from the big chair I was sitting in. It was made of the boxes of CD's that he couldn't sell. About 10,000 of them.

Get short runs. Takes a long time to sell this stuff.

MAB

hi to all, thanx for the advice. yes my intention was totally in the realm of cyberspace/digital recordings done at home on the equipment i have. that was kind of the whole point i was getting at perhaps i need to explain myself better but i thot i did. just to clear up the identity thing, my name is david michael kissinger, you can find a bit more by googling d.m.kissinger, i also use the name GOODTILLER on my soundclick site, call it a stage name . i have been posting here as dmk for a few months now. much of the advice i am aware of and have been there done that, as the saying goes, what i hoped for (again i appreciate ALL of the input given)was some advice on entering into this internet market.
i have read stuff here on jpf that indicates there is a market that anyone can access and do so totally thru the computer and for me that is in many ways the most practical ave. to actually attempt to market my songs at this time. i am not interested in brick n mortar or packaged product at this time and may never want to go that route if it is in fact possible to sidestep all of it, including live performance. i've done enough entertaining in my time and as b.b king sings, the thrill is gone. but that still leaves me with a stack of songs i have labored over (there's not a hit in any of it ,mind you ) and a sense of enjoyment over creating art and a desire to share it and for that i need an audiance. then there is the money. i can always use that. this internet thing is attractive to me because it seems an artist can cut to the chase and if they have some skill as a recording artist illiminate much of the expense of the old medium.
my goal is to sell for profit and reduce the expense. originally when i started posting stuff here i just wanted someplace to display my art(perhaps i'm guilty of vainity) and didn't have much interest any longer in trying to earn money from it. but as i said, i've looked in on discussions where people have talked about "checks from cd baby" and so forth. i want a check from cd baby too, dang it! lol sooo, that's what i'm up to.
so far i've got some good responces from people regarding songs i've posted here,some of them anyway
, gee i hope they weren't just being nice. what do you think, would it be a good idea to post the songs i intend to try and sell here on jpf first to guage the interest?
regarding my comment about quiting, well, a man without a direction is a lost man. and it is the consensus view of people in the know, that a lost person is always better off stopping, and waiting to be found rather than going on and on with no real direction and eventually dieing out in the wilderness. a man needs a direction. so what i meant was if i don't find a direction for my art soon i will have to put it down and go in some other direction, a wise man knows when to quit, but a fool keeps going till he falls into ruin. the wind needs a sail to make the ship go and the ship needs a rudder to go where it will. my music is dead in the water and i am hoping this computer i set at so much of the time can turn into a door,or at least a window,and learning to market my art via the computer can be the wind and the rudder.


cheers,david

ps, another thing that has been in my mind has been put forth as advice and that is the idea of going small. so indeed i am like the poor immigrant arriving on the shores of a far off land with a bit of string and a button, hoping in my innocence to make my fortune in the golden land of opportunity., hey marc, i knew a guy in mansfield,pa that did exactly the same thing. my first and only cd was a 80 unit run,not because i was wise, but because i didn't have the bucks to do more, fortunately, it was a pretty awful album. sold all of them too except for a about five i gave away, so i'm with ya on that score. thanx again.

david

David,

The only thing I would suggest is that you think for a minute. If you put something on the Internet, it is gone. No one has to pay for it. That is the reason to do CD's so they will purchase your product.

The sad fact is that music is really for live audiences because that is where the point of sale is engineered. If you are just planning on a digital release, I would say "how do they find out about you?"

Again, one thing I seem people make the mistake of over and over again is not being able to guague what the demand is for their product. We all would love to think we are in demand and people will scoop up anything we make. The reality is that most music is like buckets of sand in the Sahara desert. Everybody has plenty. That is what playing live does.

If you are not doing that, and just putting things on the Internet, what is the reason people would buy your product? You are not where they can get close to you, there is nothing really unique about you. I am saying this not to be mean, but the reality is that music is a product, and unless there is demand for that product, you have to take your chances. There are a LOT of people that play golf, but who is going to pay to see a tournament between some of these 20 stroke a hole duffers?

I would create a demand for what I did FIRST, before I started trying to sell it. But that is just me.

MAB

hi marc, THIS is the advice i was hoping for. it has occurred to me that if i can get a song off the internet with a wire running to my 8-tk, why would anyone pay to down load(or is it upload)one of my songs. so what are they talking about when they talk about checks from cd baby and "is streaming paying for you" and so on. here's the thing. i hear you, i really do. and i agree with you. but i've done my time in bars and coffee houses all alone for pocket change and it is REAL hard to get gigs here. and i don't think i'm such great stuff that anyone is going to come see me anyway. ok, i haven't tried much the past few years. i'm just looking for the easiest way to make a few bucks and still feel like i'm in the game. hey i would love to perform again. when my son and i were together we were tight. we got jobs easy. one place offered us a measly 50 bucks for a 2 hour gig,after the first set they booked us for three more shows and upped the pay $100.00 per 2 hr. how often does that happen, so that tells we had something good going.. but my son got put in the slammer for awhile and it all went south. i'm no good on my own anymore. ok it's a fact. and i don't have the means currently to do it any other way. my situation right now does not nurture my aspirations, i'm biding my time. but if this is another pipe dream then ok, i'll just have to wait till the money is available to get in a real studio and try for some product. thing is i was hoping this internet market was something i could do NOW. this is confusing because every thing i've been reading here and other places is about the death of the cd and how the internet is the new market ect. so what are the facts. if people can just lift the tunes off the computer with a wire then what's all the talk about selling your tunes on the internet? see this is the advice i need, is this a pipe dream? or if not, then whats the right way to do it so that it will work out to money in your pocket not just some vainity trip.

david

Lots to think about indeed and I agree with most of the advice already given. One BIG thing to take into consideration is the huge learning curve of learning even the basics of home recording is usually way out of reach for a non techie with only basic PC skills......and even with that side of things mastered the equipment needed for decent results is expensive and not really suited for a novice to get good results. Whilst it may become a great time consuming hobby few ever make any cash from it.
Another important point is that unless you are a decent experienced player and performer with great quality original songs your album will not really be showcased to the necessary levels to compete in what is the most difficult and competitive marketplace imaginable.
Studio time even using a small local outfit is hugely expensive and most people do not realise how long it takes to record even one simple track. Most people who undertake this venture thinking they are going to make money are almost certain to lose money hand over fist. Recording even just one song in a pro studio can cost many hundreds and an album many thousands......so do the maths on how much product you need to sell just to break even.
I always adopt the principle that recording a song should be done for arts sake rather than money....that way financially I will never be disappointed.

hi jim, just want to say thanx for the input, it is appreciated. i'm with you on that score, art first, money second.

cheers, david

David,

You are now asking the questions people like NSAI, BMI, ASCAP, SEASAC, and professional writers and publishers have been asking for around the past 15 years. We were screaming, going to Washington DC, meeting with Congress (everyone asks what NSAI does with those contest money and dues? There you go. To send people like ME to Congress to try to fight for YOU.

Many of us saw this handwriting on the wall years ago. But it was not until about 5 years ago that people started streaming television shows and movies for free on the Internet. It has been the ultimate of double edge swords and a constant source of derision on pages like these. It puts us everywhere but it also devalues music completely. CAN'T COLLECT ON FREE.

Everyone wants to sit in their living rooms, record what they want, put it on there and wait for the downloads to come rolling in. Not a chance. Everyone talks about "making streaming work for you" film and television placements, etc. and all the money they are making via the Internet. And I don't deny that like any business there are probably some people doing well.

But we have a glut of music unlike anything in history. We are ALL recording stars now. We are ALL recording engineers. We are ALL singers/songwriters. And we are ALL making the same. Nothing.

Your story is like most all of them I hear. "There is no scene. Bars don't pay anything any more. I am too old... I used to play..." yeah, I know. Every body every town, those are all the same excuses everyone has. The people who actually do this don't make those excuses. They have the drive,and they are going to blow anything you do away because they are out there doing it. If you are not, you are not.

People just don't show up at your door, at your site, at your world for no reason. While people will surf the net, it is doubtful they are going to just randomly stumble upon you. A billion songs a month on the net, thirty million artists? Doubtful.

There are some people who become "viral sensations." But those are primarily random things that have more behind the scenes that go into them and almost all of them are YOU TUBE videos. The ones we know "United Breaks Guitars" "Friday's" even the big Interenet Millions upon millions didn't.

You have asked the multi million dollar question. How can I do this without leaving the comfort of my living room? I can't tell you that. I have never heard of anyone doing it. And personally I don't think it is possible. I could be proven wrong, but I don't think so. You are simply not going to be able to compete with American Idol, X Factor, America (Britian's) got talent, etc.That is where the next sensations come from.

I can tell you the things to do to get started. Identify your target audience, and build a product that people WANT. Not just something YOU want to hear. I agree with Jim that it should be what YOU want first. Art is what it is. But if you are thinking in terms of commerical in any way,shape and form, that is going to take more research and yes, getting out of your living room. That is the only way you find out what is going on.

I suggest being involved in a local writers and club scene. If nothing more than connecting with other real people. I believe the Internet is a tool but no more. It is not the end all. Don't believe the hype about "Millions to be made by streaming" or all the other crap peddeled on the Net. I got a "Nigerian General Scam" email today. Three in the past week. Someone gets hooked by those too.

It is like the constant cycle of many of these posts:

"Does anyone know these people.....?"

To: "So and so are rip offs" and everything in between.

If it sounds to good to be true. It is.

Do what you want. Record what you want. My suggestion is to think it out, make it worth something and make yourself proud. Act as if you will never make a dime because you probably won't.
At the end of the day you are probably going to spend months trying to do this, will get it "out there" and you will be tremendously underwhelemed by the response you get. If you get out of the living room, you will at least be getting a little step closer. But if you are not willing to do that, myself and others who do this for real will. That is what is nessasary.

Try to enjoy yourself.

That is the real reason we do this.

MAB

david michael kissinger: I am quite pleased with my 2011 RPM CD, so I am thinking about doing the very same thing you are. I need to swap out one or two songs with more uptempo ones and then do one more mixing effort and then see what happens. For low-volume runs (5-25-50), it sure seems tough to beat http://www.kunaki.com/ -- they can do it cheaper than I can by myself!!!

Anyway, if I finally get around to it and do the CD, I'll send it CD-Baby and see what happens. Most likely nothing, but it would be cool if I just sold one!

Let us know how this all works out for you.

Kevin

If you ever get lost in the woods or in a desert and you just sit down and wait for someone to find you, odds are you will never be found and will die. So your idea is on it's face already suicidal.

If you want to compete (which means SELL MUSIC) you are competing with not only every other musician in the commercial music world (probably a million now worldwide or more who are for real and not playing, all available on the web, just like you want to be) but also every OTHER thing someone can spend their ever dwindling supply of money on. If you're not interested in working your butt off to get what you WANT, then I agree... don't bother... music isn't for you anyway. Keep it as a hobby, post some songs for a few folks to comment on and be happy. But if you want a piece of the tiny amount of money available for the purchase or commercial use of music, you better want it bad and be ready to bust ass to find success in a relentless fashion, or you better have a really clever gimmick, make a funny video or write a funny novelty song or a really clevel video for a straightforward song and hope someone likes it enough to link it around to their friends.

Anytime someone says "if x, y or z doesn't happen, then I am just going to quit music completely" I suggest quitting. And there's few people in the world who spends a fraction of the time I do inspiring musicians to keep going and working to find ways to help them do so. If you're meant for music, you CAN'T stop making it, no matter what is placed in your way. No matter how much failure you have. And frankly, you have to put effort into something to even fail. Not really "trying" doesn't even lead to failure... it leads to total indifference from you, for you and towards that which is the black hole of the soul. Show me a failure and I will show you someone getting closer to not failing. Show me someone waiting around in a forest hoping to be discovered and I'll show you a pile of forgotten bones slowly and indifferently turning into dust in the wind.

There's very little room in the world today for another musician and they are piling in daily. There's no room for a lazy musician.

Some may say "wow.. that's really too harsh Brian..." well, it may be. It's a harsh world out there where truly brilliant talent working their asses off, giving every ounce of effort and then some they have to inch towards success sometimes still get nowhere. Sure, a few lucky novelty or clever acts might break through via youtube etc., but even those rarely make money unless massive effort and hard work (and talent) kicks in as the notoriety kicks up.

How do people get those "checks" from CD Baby? They work at it. They push forward. They build fans, even if it's 20 people, who believe in their work and will actually pay for it. They produce something interesting enough for people to check it out so many times that micropennies turn to dollars and eventually into small checks. And always remember, no one owes you anything. Certainly not a check.

There's a story on the general message board about some young kids who listened to similar advice as you're getting here (all good and true by the way) took that advice and went out and worked their butts off and they are already getting somewhere even in this difficult environment. Anything less than hard work is just someone wasting their time and money and likely other people's time. Decide what you want enough to bust your ass working at it every waking moment of your life going forward. If that isn't music, find something else. Everyone has something that makes life worth living. Stop WAITING to live... start LIVING as you go. As my signature says.. success won't find you, it doesn't know the way and to add to it, it's not successes job to find you either.

Decide what you want that you ARE willing to work for. Otherwise, be happy with your music hobby. There's nothing wrong with it. I love golf... I suck at it and don't play enough not to and I will never be professional nor will anyone pay me to do it (instead I pay them). It's a hobby I enjoy. Nothing wrong with that. Making money means you're a professional. I've seen and heard your competition, if you don't want to bust ass for it, get out of everyone else's way before you get run over.

That's just my opinion, I could be right.

Brian

wow did i step on some toes or what, and did i not get my thots out clearly. first, i was saying i wanted to get in on making money from the computer like i've heard people talk about here and elsewhere. now this is what, the same as saying i'm too lazy to get out there and be a real player? so a guy selling golf clubs over the internet is a bum because he's not selling golf clubs in a brick and mortar store. you say, just post a few songs and be happy. that's what i was trying to not be, i wanted to make some real attempt(or what i thot was a real attempt) to do something more real with what i do, more than just set in my room and write songs,record them and then post them here out of some lame vainity. just figuring out all this internet stuff, how it all works, writing decent material and then recording it to best of my ability on my bare bones gear, hey, that doesn't qualify as work? it's way EASIER AND WAY LESS WORK to just go out to a bar and perform for a bunch of drunks. just learn a reasonable version of some cover songs. and so if i'm not interested in that or more open mic's then i can't be a valid artist? i guess i made a BIG mistake asking for advice on this. i thot it was acceptable and guess what, i didn't pull the idea out of my forth point of contact, i heard it mostly here like it was some kind of going concern and so ,what i'm a joker because i want to get in on it? i made an attempt to "get out there" earlier this year and do just that, play cover songs in bar with some guy who didn't give a rat's rear end how he/we sounded, just play for the drunks and take the money. sorry not interested. if i'm going to make music i'm going to WORK MY ASS OFF to to make it the best i can. my goal wasn't to be some lazy bum, just try and get in on what i understood to be the current market. you know , it is presented to you like. well now the walls are all torn down and nobodies like me can get in and maybe advance themselves with some dignity and have control yada yada. so the first time a guy asks for some advice on that score he gets labeled a mutt. get out of the way so the real men can have the stage. with all due respect to you buddy, you are clueless about my charecter and real good at not reading between the lines, lazy,that's one thing i'm not but like i said, your clueless. tell ya something else. your spin about what to do when lost in the woods is exactly what gets most lost people killed,hey theres more to the story, but i was trying to speak in figures and when ya do that ya don't expect people to take you so literally. ya set yourself down and wait because in most cases you will be found by those searching for you. continuing to go, and go, causes the sense of panic to greatly increase to the extent that many people die of heart failure, or if it's real cold they over heat which causes sweating which turns to chills which lowers the bodies core temp which kills from hypothermia, or if it's real hot they die from heat exhaustion, your clueless on that score too. i'll wager i've spent way more time in the woods than you and been lost in the woods more than once. i speak from experiance, what do you speak from? but i did not say i would quit making music. what i meant was quit trying to make any kind of living at it or more importantly, entertaining the silly notion that i would someday make it in the biz in some way or sell a song. i already know that doing what i do for it's own sake is why i do this. but god forbid the first step toward trying to do something for myself with a commercial goal and wow, ya get called a bum just because ya want to have it easier or cheaper or more profitable.or just asking the question. my spin on your comment is that didn't really hear what was saying in the first place. but hey maybe you are exactly right. maybe i don't below in your world.

Hey, David...I think your New Commercial Direction is Admirable (so no need for a chip-on-the-shoulder) & all the Advice-Given here was for-free, remember.

Sounds like Your First CD was a success...(They DID all Sell!).
You could probably give some of US advice...well, actually, you have. I admire your Dedication to Your Craft. Hang in there, give it your best shot, & JMO, don't be in a big hurry to burn any bridges. (There seem to be More & More Musical Opportunities posted here..weekly.)

Best Wishes & 'Nuther Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

David,

Perhaps if your first post had been a little more informative, we would have known where you were coming from. There are people on here who have made their living from music their whole lives and there are some who are rank beginners. We only know what you tell us.

David, here's some advice and info from a JPF member:

http://zirconmusic.com/tutorials/text/how-to-make-money-from-music-licensing/

Plus some random things I've found helpful:

http://www.licensequote.com/blog/

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=29283

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/13012216

http://musiclibraryreport.com/

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/forums/

Also, I highly recommend John Braheny's book, "The Craft and Business of Songwriting" as a great overall resource.

Hope that helps.

Mike

David,

I don't know who your comments are aimed at, but I am not referring just to you. I am referring to a mindset. The music business at any level is done one to one with real people. It is not done by remote control. I don't know where you are getting your information about Internet successes but I think you are reading selective reports and I think they are the same people that do the Nigerian General scam.

There are millions of people on the Internet and most music people are NOT making money. They are getting music out there but they are selling NOTHING. Actually that is not ture. Lady Ga Ga made $168 on Spotify by selling one million downloads. Wow. Go buy a house with that.

I am on this thread and others because of just that kind of information. I watch people essentially walk into walls and in many cases spend a LOT of money getting that nothing.

Your posts expand information with each one and we respond to what you say. You started out with "I want to do a recording project and need some help." Fine. I and others did that.

Then you start into the entire "I want to make money on this big "internet boom" (That doesn't exist). Then you drop the big one in the "I don't want to play anymore, I'm too old to play for drunks, I don't want to whatever..." What I am saying is with that attitude, frankly the consumer would say that they don't need YOU.

I suggest that you study music history, learn about people that actually do this, the people who are successful, instead of reading the adventures of INTERNET MAN, which is a comic book that sells to people who will spend $10 for a pipe dream.

Like I have said from the beginning. Get out of the living room. Get in the real world. The "Internet only" is not it.

MAB

Yes, when all else fails try licensing via music libraries. Though that road isn't a piece of cake either. If your music is accepted into some libraries, plan on a year or two before you see any placements (if ever). One of Mike's links is a good place to begin for licensing: http://musiclibraryreport.com/

One library told me for every descriptive search made by music supervisors a thousand tracks are displayed. If your track isn't in the first 20-30 tracks displayed your track probably won't even be heard.

Another library told me that their most successful composers were the ones with 500+ tracks in their library. Makes sense; the more tracks the better chance of your music coming up in searches.

I think Brian, Marc, and the gang were giving you a healthy dose of reality. Better to know what you're up against before the battle begins.

Good luck, John

John,

Again, I hear this all the time. But people I have had conversations with like T. Bone Burnette and other people in the actual film and television industry really don't use those services. I doubt very seriously PIXAR, Disney, Universal, or other film and television companies are going to go to too many film libraries for selections in their films. They have music directors.

I hear a LOT of these claims. Then see a lot of the same people making them showing up at conferences, meetings, etc. asking how to get more music into those formats.

I am going to maintain that there is no film library, no placement service, no manager, ageent, etc. that is ever going to get past the PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP that is the legitimate business. Granted, at my fingertips I can surf anywhere and find things that might work. Or, in my world, of artists and the music industry, I can write them myself. I don't have the time or patience to go surfing around through millions of sites to find something I need.

I suggest anyone find whatever works for them. I wish them luck. But I would also suggest investing some time in realty instead of throwing a lot of money at some of these services.

MAB

Hi David:

Ordinarily, I wouldn't jump in on a thread like this because folks like Marc and Brian have all the experience to provide advice to you. But I thought I'd just share a perspective from a guy who makes music in his living room.

Up until I couple of years ago, I'd just write songs and then play them for family and a few friends. Then, I found JPF and starting sharing some songs here. Maybe 30 people would listen to them but that was about 27 more than were before

After being here awhile, getting suggestions from others and collaborating with others, I had a few songs that I thought would be cool to get "out there". Never had any thought about trying to make money - I already had a good job. But it was enough of a driving force just to have people listen, and hopefully, like them.

Here is what I've found:

(1) If you just put something up on CD Baby and sit back and watch, nothing will happen. People just won't find you. If you share the CD Baby link with friends, you might make back the money that it cost you to put it up there. I use CD Baby because it is a convenient way to point folks to my songs and because they distribute it to a number of different places. But I don't expect to make much money.

(2) The internet has solved the distribution problem. With virtually no spending on your part (once the equipment is paid for) you can now share your music with anyone in the world. What the internet has NOT solved is the promotion problem.

(3) I've promoted a couple of my songs in a somewhat limited fashion. I've gotten some exposure and not made any money - which was fine because that was consistent with my goals. However, it is a LOT of work. I had to do a lot of research to figure out who to even contact. For every 20 queries I send out, I might get one response and, out of every 10 responses I might get one that will use my song. And this is for letting them use it and not trying to make a buck off it.

The advice you get here (and I'm reading it all too) might suggest easier or more effective ways but I still feel it's going to come down to "busting your ass".

I've concluded this: If I am a 50ish year old who doesn't play live (and I am that guy), and I was trying to make money off of music purely on the internet, starting a lawn service would provide a much better rate of return and would be less work.

(4) The song of mine that has gotten the most exposure was a collaborative effort between folks at JPF and the reason it got the exposure was through a personal contact with one of my collaborators. Another set of songs has gotten quite a bit of exposure because they were pushed by another friend here at JPF. Personal connections and working with others - there really is something to it. If you work with two or three other folks, that's three or four times the number of people who believe in the song and might be willing to push it. Also, it's two or three other folks that can bring something to the song that you can't.

In my opinion, producing songs and getting people to listen are entirely different things. I think writing and recording the song is the easy part. The hard work is in getting people to hear it. And it's not fun work like writing a song - it's keeping your nose to the grindstone work. That's why I suggest this: Read Brian's post again pretending that he was responding to someone else. I think he is on the money. Marc too.

Scott

"Again, I hear this all the time. But people I have had conversations with like T. Bone Burnette and other people in the actual film and television industry really don't use those services. I doubt very seriously PIXAR, Disney, Universal, or other film and television companies are going to go to too many film libraries for selections in their films. They have music directors." Marc

Hey Marc,

Actually the mainstream film & TV Industry do use music libraries. If you're talking about scoring a blockbuster film ala John Williams that is indeed a different ball game. They're dream jobs. Music libraries supply music to all the major networks and many major film studios. Here's a list of "Crucial Music" clients:

ABC · CBS · CW · Fox · HBO · Lifetime · Lion's Gate · NBC · Paramount Pictures · Paramount Television · Showtime · Sony Television · Sony Pictures · The Weinstein Company · Touchstone · Universal Pictures · Warner Brothers Features · Warner Brothers

"I suggest anyone find whatever works for them. I wish them luck. But I would also suggest investing some time in realty instead of throwing a lot of money at some of these services" - Marc


Music libraries are today's reality, and they don't charge (At least not the legit ones). I'm in 16 libraries and never paid a cent upfront to any of them. They usually split licensing fees, etc. with the composer.

"I am going to maintain that there is no film library, no placement service, no manager, ageent, etc. that is ever going to get past the PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP that is the legitimate business. Granted, at my fingertips I can surf anywhere and find things that might work. Or, in my world, of artists and the music industry, I can write them myself. I don't have the time or patience to go surfing around through millions of sites to find something I need" - Marc

Just the opposite Marc. Many clients use music libraries to save time. A quick search in a music library will instantly generate appropriate music for a client's needs.

Best, John

Here's a list of more clients and placements of Crucial:

Weekly Television Series - 10 Things I Hate About You · 3 LBS · 30 Rock · A Side Order of Life · Alias · American Dad · America's Funniest Videos · America's Got Talent · Army Wives · Big Bang Theory · Blue Bloods · Blue Mountain State · Boardwalk Empire · Boston Legal · Breaking Bad · Breakout Kings · Brothers & Sisters · Burn Notice · Californication · Cashmere Mafia · Castle · Chase · Cheerleader Nation · Chuck · Classical Baby (HBO) · Close To Home · Cold Case · Cougar Town · Criminal Minds · CSI · CSI Miami · CSI New York · Cupid · Damages · Dance In America: Beyond the Steps · Dark Blue · Detroit 1-8-7 · Dexter · Dirt · Dirty Sexy Money · Dresden Files · Drop Dead Diva · Eastwick · Ed · Eleventh Hour · Eli Stone · Emily's Reasons Why Not · Entertainment Tonight · Entourage · Everybody Loves Raymond · Everybody Hates Chris · Fear Itself · Felicity (Season 3 & Season 4 DVD) · Flash Forward · Flash Gordon · Flashpoint · Friday Night Lights · Fringe · Ghost Whisperer · Glenn Martin DDS · Glory Daze · Greek · Happy Hour · Harper's Island · Hawaii 5-O · Heroes · High Society · House · How I Met Your Mother · Human Target · Hung · In Plain Sight · In The Motherhood · Jimmy Kimmell · Judging Amy · Justified Amy · Kath & Kim · Kevin Hill · Kings · Kyle XY · Lie To Me · Life · Life Is Wild · Life Unexpected · Lincoln Heights · Lipstick Jungle · Lonestar · Love Bites · Love Monkey · Lovespring International · Malcolm In The Middle · Make It Or Break It · Melrose Place · Memphis Beat · Men In Trees · Men of A Certain Age · Mercy · Miami Medical · Mildred Pierce · Monk · Moonlight · My Generation · My Own Worst Enemy · New Adventures of Old Christine · New Amsterdam · NCIS LA · Nikita · No Ordinary Family · Notes from the Underbelly · Out of Jimmy's Head · One Tree Hill · Painkiller Jane · Parenthood · Parks and Recreation · Past Life · Passions · Perfect Couples · Persons Unknown · Plain Jane · Pretty Little Liars · Prison Break · Privileged · Psych · Quarterlife · Raising Hope · Raising The Bar · Reaper · Rizzoli & Isles · Robson Arms · Royal Pains · Rubicon · Samantha Who? · Saved · Saving Grace · Scrubs (Season 3 DVD) · Scoundrels · Shark · Shameless · Shedding for the Wedding · Six Feet Under · Sleeper Cell · Smallville · Sons of Anarchy · South Beach · Southland · Standoff · Swingtown · Switched At Birth · Tell Tale · Terriers · The Chicago Code · The Cleaner · The Dollhouse (DVD) · The Event · The Ex List · The Forgotten · The Gates · The Glades · The Good Guys · The Insider · The Killing · The Listener · The Loop · The Lost Room · The Mentalist · The Nanny (DVD) · The Office · The Philanthropist · The PJs · The Simpsons · The Whole Truth · The Young & The Restless · Trauma · Three Rivers · True Blood · Ugly Betty · Undercovers · United States of Tara · Valentine · Vampire Diaries · Veronica Mars · Wayside · Weeds · Wildfire · Will & Grace · Witchblade (DVD) · Woman's Murder Club

Television Movies & Specials - Acceptance · Dynasty: The Making of a Guilty Pleasure · Dirty Driving: Thundercars of Indiana · Good Fences · Good Hair · Great American Christmas · High Noon · Heart of a Stranger · Hitler and I: Reflections on Evil · H.I.T aka To Love and Die in LA · Knights of the South Bronx · Maneater · Masters of Horror: Chocolate · Masters of Horror: Fair-Haired Child · Masters of Horror (Season 2): Family · Masters of Horror (Season 2): Pelts · Masters of Horror (Season 2): Right To Die · Masters of Horror (Season 2): The Screwfly Solution · Masters of Horror (Season 2): The V Word · Masters of Science Fiction: Jerry Was A Man · Megasnake · Midnight Bayou · Picture This · Playing For Keeps · Revenge of the Bridesmaids · Scott Turrow's Reversible Errors · See Jane Date · Seven Deadly Sins · Snow 2: Brain Freeze · Staircase Murders · The Company · The Cutting Edge: Chasing the Dream · The Gathering · The Grid · The Quest for the Holy Grail · Unanswered Prayers · Vampire Bats

Films - 21 · 30 Days of Night: Dark Days · A Single Man · Accidental Husband · Adventureland · After.life · American Pie Presents Beta House · American Violet · Amreeka · Another Gay Movie · Another Gay Sequel · Arthur · Baby Mama · Bad Teacher · Bait · Ball's Out · Being Michael Madsen · Bratz: The Movie · Brokeback Mountain · Bottleworld · Branded · Buried Alive · Capitalism: A Love Story · Caravan Prague · Chop Shop · Cleaner · Cloverfield · Cop Out · Cyrus · Dance Flick · Dance of the Dead · Dark Country · Date Night · Dead Like Me · Dinner for Schmucks · Disaster · Dorfman · Down For Life · Dylan Dog: Dead of Night · Echo · Edison & Leo · Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer · Farce of the Penguins · Fighting · Frankenhood · Fred: The Movie · Funny Money · Get Smart · Getting It · God Grew Tired of Us · Green Hornet · Hard Cash · Helena From The Wedding · Honey 2 · Horton Hears A Who! · Hostel 3 · Hot Rod · I Hate Valentine's Day · I Hope They Serve Beer In Hell · I Love You Phillip Morris · I Think I Love My Wife · Inconceivable · Janky Promoters · Jumping the Broom · Ladron Que Roba Ladron · Land of the Dead · Last Night · Legally Blondes · Legion · Little Man · Living Hell · Letters to Juliet · Love Etc · Love Hurts · Mad Money · Material Girls · Meet Bill · Meet Dave · Mission Impossible 3 · Mr. Woodcock · My Best Friend's Girl · Nancy Drew · Nearing Grace · New York City Serenade · Nights In Rodanthe · No Strings Attached · Not Forgotten · Numb · Observe & Report · Obsessed · Oceans 12 · Old Dogs · Open Season 3 · Personal Effects · Phoebe In Wonderland · Project Greenlight: Battle of Shaker Heights · Radiant City · Randy and the Mob · Red · Redline · Reservation Road · Rushlights · Sex & The City · Sex Drive · Shoot the Hero · Short Track · Shutter · Solitary Man · Solo · Something Borrowed · Soul Men · Spring Breakdown · Step Up 2 · Step Up 3D · Stiletto · Stomp The Yard: Homecoming · Street Fighter · Strays · Suburban Girl · Sydney White · Texas Chainsaw Massacre: The Beginning · The Air I Breathe · The Assistants · The A Team · The Beautiful Ordinary · The Blind Side · The Boy In The Box · The Box · The Cinderella Pact · The Day The Earth Stood Still · The Dying Gaul · The Extra Man · The Final Destination · The Green Hornet · The Holiday · The House Bunny · The Irishman · The Last Lullaby · The Man from Plains Documentary · The Oh in Ohio · The Open Road · The Other Guys (Extended Version) · The Proposal · The Quest for the Holy Grail · The Road · The Roommate · The Ruins · The Slammin' Salmon · The Trouble With Romance · The Women · The Yellow Handkerchief · This Christmas · Thomas Kinkade's Home for Christmas · Trainwreck · Transformers: Dark of the Moon · Transylmania · You Again · Warrior · Weiners · What's Your Number? · When In Rome · White Chicks · Year One · Zack & Miri Make A Porno

Commercials - American Express · Bella & Birch Infomercial · Dairy Queen Radio · DKNY Pure Fragrance · Gap 19.99 Jeans Sale Spot · Gap Kids Radio Summer Value Spot · Gap Rada Jeans Spot · Google · Gorton's Shrimp Temptations · New York City Ballet · Nickelodeon Pebbles · Nike/Jordan "V Game" · Puma · Ralph Lauren · Royal Caribbean · Sally Hansen · Sizzler · Suave · Tommy Hilfiger · Toyota Camry · Toyota Prius · Tylenol · United Way of Greater Los Angeles

Video Games - Grand Theft Auto (Playstation, PSP) · Grand Theft Auto 4 · The Sopranos · Wheelman

Other - AP Entertainment Fall News Reel · AP Entertainment Winter News Reel · Beyond the Call Preview Trailer · Black Swan Preview Trailer · Caroline In The City Season 1 DVD · Daffy's Internet Viral Video · Dish Dogz Preview Trailer · Employee Pick of the Week Promo · Firehouse Dog Preview Trailer · Fit & Fab Exercise Video · Kingdoms of Grace Online Webisode Series · Live Free or Die Hard Preview Trailer · Looking for Eric Preview Trailer · Middle Men DVD Featurettes · NBC Promos · Night at the Museum 2: Battle of the Smithsonian DVD · Physique 57 DVD · Pretty Tough (webisodes) · Redline Preview Trailer · Southbound (short film) · The Rocker Podcast · Weeds Season 4 DVD Preview Trailer · X-Files: I Want To Believe DVD

David:

I read your most recent reply with surprise and amazement. Perhaps you were not really looking for advice? Your initial post certainly came off that way, though. My friend, you have received some pretty valid and well intended responses from some of the movers and shakers here at JPF. (Not me... I'm a relative nobody.)

Sorry you were so "incensed" with your response. As previously stated, best of luck with your music. If you can't stand the heat, I would advise against entering the kitchen... LOL! In all honesty, nobody meant to cause you pain and suffering.

Regards,

Dave Rice

From another relatively nobody...

I'll second that Dave. It's more kind to let people know what they're up against than to let them live in a fantasy where con artists prey on your dreams and empty your wallet.

Best, John

David,

One day you'll either cool down, take a deep breath, step back a bit and see some truth in the world, or you'll simply live in a self enforced state of delusion and nothing good is going to come from that, no matter how much talent you have.

For the record, where exactly did I say to start randomly running around the woods until you die of confusion? Sitting on the ground doing nothing is much different than STANDING UP OFF YOUR ASS so someone can SEE you and CALLING OUT TO THEM so they can HEAR you. And if it were me, I'd try to do more than that, like create more to see by using a flare gun I brought along (because I bothered to be PREPARED to TAKE ACTION) so folks might see it or perhaps use my police whistle which is much louder than my voice which could go out. I might also mark my spot with an arrow on which direction I was looking so I could slightly expand my perimeter to look for an open spot in the forest where I could START A FIRE because I bothered to bring gear to do that with to attract even more attention (without buring down the forest itself). I mean seriously Dave, you're an adult. You say you have a lot of experience. You claim you've done it all. So how is all your superiority working out for you?

I don't expect David to get any of this because at this point, he's not ready to hear it. That's okay. All of us reach those points in our lives about something. We just aren't ready for the truth until we are. He might "get it" later. But I am more concerned with those that will read this and learn from it. The truth is often easy to see when it's not about you. It takes a lot more effort to take it directly. And we're all far from perfect on that count. But if no one EVER tells you the truth, you'll never have a fighting chance to get past stagnation or a constant rut in the wrong direction.

Brian

John,

I guess you right then. So David should have no problem never leaving his living room and just do everything on the Internet. I stand corrected. Works a little different where I live.

MAB

Marc,

It's all about different lives and different goals/needs. If someone's goal is to have their music used as incidental background noise in a scene on the TV Show Drop Dead Diva and making a couple hundred bucks there's nothing wrong at all with that. I mean 99.9% of people making music will never have that happen for them. It's a big accomplishment. And I know a lot of people who make thousands of dollars or more doing exactly what John is suggesting. That pays for their studio gear a little at a time. It pays for a CD to put out into the world. Or it gives them a lot of joy when their friends and family hear their music on a national TV show or better a film in some manner. I think all those things are wonderful success stories.

Then we have a guy like you who surpassed all that level of stuff many many years ago and who was shooting for much larger success and in some cases found it. I don't know how much income you might make each year from the residual successes you've had, but I certainly bet 99.99% of people would KILL for your life exactly as it is right now.

Then we have people like Chris Young who is at the start of a very promising and very well known career who already had 2 #1 songs in the last year and I bet will have more going forward. 99.999% of people would KILL for that life as well.

Then we have Lady Gaga... even if you hate her guts (not Marc, just saying anyone) who wouldn't want her money, fame, power or some piece of any of it? Nearly 100% of the people in the world.

Can you support a family with kids, a house, a new car and a good standard of living doing it only John's way? Outside of a small number of people, the answer is no. But so what? When did music become ONLY about commerce to have value in the world? Frankly commerce has poisoned as much potentially amazing music as it has promoted it. Success is a wide wide thing. In the end, success is happiness with your life as it stands. Success is feeling you DID something you are proud of. Success is different for us all, but it's rare to find it in stagnation, ignorance, jealousy, or missed or wasted opportunities.

So both of you are right for the most part. And in both cases, neither of you are just sitting in a forest hoping to be discovered are you?

Brian

Yes Marc, I certainly wouldn't want to take on all the Nashville obstacles. Having a "hit" song is on the same level of accomplishment as getting a scoring job for a major film.

Brian is correct in his assessment of the different levels of accomplishments, though maybe not pertaining to the creation of the actual art (referring to the " incidental background noise" comment ). There are two levels of success; one dealing with fame & fortune and one dealing with the creation of art itself. Wonderful when both are achieved.

Both film/TV music and hit songs can be wonderful examples of quality music or terrible examples ("Achy Breaky Heart" or the music heard on reality shows comes to mind for the latter).

At this time in my life I'm doing exactly what I want to do. Most of the music I've had placed is music I'm proud of. Having one of my piano rags picked up by ABC for three promos recently was very gratifying (because it was one of my favorite piano solos). Much music in film/TV (save reality shows) is quality music, i.e., music that can stand alone.

My ultimate goal is to have one of my tracks in a film destined to become a classic ala Casablanca. Sense of immortality maybe? Probably never happen, but the fighter inside of me keeps me plugging away 7 days a week for such an achievement.

I love this Brian: "Success is a wide wide thing. In the end, success is happiness with your life as it stands. Success is feeling you DID something you are proud of. Success is different for us all, but it's rare to find it in stagnation, ignorance, jealousy, or missed or wasted opportunities" - Brian

Couldn't have been said better. Brought a tear to this old worn-out face.

Best, John

Hi John, Marc, Brian... and ultimately, David Kissinger:

See David... we even argue amongst ourselves without rancor. It's okay to have a differing opinion. It's not okay to be condescending.... ahem, Brian... and, by the way, there is a David and a Dave on this thread. I sincerely hope you were not "throwing darts" at little ol' me! I have been attempting to be a peacemaker lately. Too much war in my life already... and besides, I just read that fellow Arkansan, Glen Campbell (Delight, Arkansas) has Alzheimers. (... and we think we've got problems.) I flew to Dallas from Burbank once with him. He kept the entire flight in stitches. So very sad!

Marc and John... you are both right in your own way. Success is many things to many individuals. One man's cornbread is another's catastrophe... LOL!

There is the potential for gaining some wisdom in the ability to first recognize wisdom in what someone posessing knowledge has graciously shared with you.
The key to growth in this area comes in your ability to incorporate it into your way of thinking and looking at things.

What he said!

Dave,

Not sure if I understand why you're defensive. When you address a note to David and the entire discussion is in direct response to one very clear and obvious person start to finish, how you, simply because you have the same first name, think it was suddenly shifted and meant for you? Are people really that worried? Has anyone ever known me not to directly and clearly address my feelings about something directly to the person in question? I can't even figure out what you said that would lead you to your concern or conclusion, but for the record, no, I was not making a comment about you.

You did however make a direct snipe at me. (To avoid any confusion, it was: "It's not okay to be condescending.... ahem, Brian..." -Dave Rice )That's okay. You aren't the first nor will you be the last. It was clear to me prior to my post that everyone was falling over themselves to sincerely try and help this guy when, in my opinion as I indicated, he needed a serious reality check FIRST before there was any hope of him following any of the great advice being given. Sometimes the right thing to say is not the easy thing to say. I was really glad to get the support I did because I expected to have some folks feel as you apparently do based on your direct comment to me.

It was gratifying that you so far (not counting the other David/Dave or whatever other version of that name that might exist) are the only one who had a problem. I do at least respect you for saying what you think, in your own name, directly to me. And for that you have my respect and thanks, even though I disagree with your premise.

As for condescension, political correctness is becoming the death of our country here in the USA, just as false praise ruins more music people's chances of getting better than blunt truth. People claim being offended no matter what viewpoint on any subject is made until people are afraid to speak THE TRUTH to someone and instead do them a terrible disservice by sugar coating and walking on eggshells around an obvious fact: David doesn't GET IT. Either tell him bluntly the truth to hopefully get his attention and give him at least a CHANCE to hear the truth, or go on giving him advice he won't follow or back pats that are hollow even when sincere. No one else, in my view, was dealing with the PROBLEM, but rather the symptoms. So I did it and prepared to take heat for it. No one should ever need to wonder what I think about them or a subject matter because if I haven't said it, all you have to do is ask. I don't sugar coat things so people need to know that going in. If only everyone said what they really meant and meant what they really said.

So no Dave, I was not talking about or to you in the post to David. You'll know it when I do. Like now.

Brian

Hi Brian:

No hidden agendas here. Just wanted to be certain I was not in "your line of fire." Sorry you took it the wrong way.

I agree with what you said to Mr. Kissinger but I would have probably said it differently. Obviously, something one of us said caused him to be upset... and that's not my purpose in being here... at your site.

Hi, Gentlemen!!

I just wanted to say that this thread contains some very valuable information! So, thank you all!

Marc, I'll be printing your advice off to keep in my reference file! Thank you for sharing your insight!

But, each of you have shared very noteworthy nuggets! Even the tension in here has merit.

Brian, I get what you are saying loud and clear, and even if it seems harsh to some, I'm glad you said it! Not just for David, but like you said, for anyone reading this, including me! This is not an easy game to play, whether it is a hobby or whether it is a dream and passion that the artist is pursuing with every ounce of his/her being! I would never be able to even CONSIDER quitting, because it's more attached to me than my very own skin!
But, if I were ever delusional about finding some "easy" way to make a BIG break or make money, you cleared that up!

David-- Don't be discouraged! JPF is a really great place. Even in here, we might have to take some hard knocks. Consider it experience gained! Also, sorry about your son. But, just because he isn't able to partner with you right now, doesn't mean you can't find other partners! It also doesn't mean you have to do the bar scene for $50/2hrs! My brothers and I got ourselves out there, and now, we get calls for gigs-- paying in the hundreds! I use it as seed money. But we do weddings, festivals, summer concert series concerts, etc, where the sponsors PAY all the advertising, and give us free posters to post all over the place!
And we don't just have to do all those cover tunes... we get to throw our originals in the mix! That's the needed exposure.. now the crowd REQUESTS our originals... a fan base will develop for you if you get out there with it! The suggestions on collaborating are great... “I would rather have one percent
of 100 people’s efforts than 100 percent of my own.” — Andrew Carnegie

Good Luck!

---Jen

Welcome aboard Jen! Always good to see a new face.

Yeah, "tension" always provokes additional information.

Best, John

It seems to me that whether you play covers in bars for drunks or write songs in your living room or even do both plus everything alse that has been suggested...the chances of making any money from selling recordings is slim what ever way you look at it. There is no shortcut or secret formula for succeess but it seems apparent that success will not come looking for you so to stand ANY chance you must do everything you can and work hard to learn the biz and craft and promote yourself every which way you can.
I have seen people who IMO are pretty untalented and do not deserve the fame and fortune they get. I also see some people who work just as hard or even harder and have talent in spades but will never make anything from the biz. Life is unfair...but one thing is for sure the more lottery tickets you buy the greatest chance you have of winning. Sadly on the flip side the more lottery tickets you purchase the more money you stand to lose.
As I said in a an earlier post....only a fool goes ito music thinking he will make money. Most do it for love of music and any income received from this "expensive hobby" is simply a bonus.

I agree Jim. For the love of it. I've had a love affair with music as early as I can remember. Anyone more interested in making money, try Wall St. or Politics.

John

Hi Fellow JPF'rs:

Before I forget, Welcome Jen... Tension! What tension? LOL! You should have seen/heard some of the "discussions" shared around the boards between Brian and Graham Henderson, that crusty old Aussie who never hesitated to stand his ground. We miss him alot and he had a heart of gold. (Brian has one too!)

Big Jim... it's good to see you posting again and I hope your health issues are a thing of the past. Lottery? Better chances? Surely not... LOL! I agree with you and John... creating music or performing is truly an act of addictive love. It's still okay to dream about making alot of money, eh? (Yes, Jim... I have an old printing press but the picture of General Grant is getting a little dicey around the edges... LOL!)

Have a great weekend, guys and gals.

Yeah "addictive" is a good adjective for it Dave.

John

I just saw the other posts... Jen... you're my new hero here! = ) If only all new members hit the ground running like you things would be so much easier! = )

Welcome to the fray!

Brian

Remember that there is only one standard - the best.

Tom