JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Multiple upon Multiple upon Multiple Songwriters on one Song

Hello Everyone,

I was going through the Top Songs on Billboard and thought I would
look up the Songwriting credits for some of the Top hits....
I remember when I first started writing songs and I was always excited to see the Songwriting credit of a Song that I really loved, So I could make a mental note of their style and study other songs by them.

So now I've noticed that instead of the usual one or two writers one would typically find there are now like six or seven or more on one song, and wanted to know what everyone here thinks about that?

For me personally its a let down because, even though the songs are really good- I find it harder to feel connected as a writer to so many individual ones, anyone else here feel the same?

I know that's the new way of doing business now and practically almost impossible to bypass these days if you want a cut on a Major Album/Artist, but sometimes when reading through the lyric and I find a line that to me simply wimps out, I credit it to too many Songwriters or Cooks in the Kitchen, anyone have similar thoughts?

I would bet that a couple of the writers actually wrote the song and the rest received credit for tiny changes so that they could receive royalties, which is one of the few ways to actually get paid in the music industry. The extra songwriters could just be investors in the artist's career.

Most of the extra writers are part of the production team (producer, beat writers) and guest artists. Since a lot of the pop music is production based, it makes sense -- even though it is really an arrangement and not "writing" per se (or at least how we define it). Colin's may be right, too.

I recently did a listing of the top 5 songs as of 7/24/12:

1.) Call Me Maybe by Carly Rae Jepson (Jepsen,Ramsay, Crowe) :
The song was originally written by Jepsen and Tavish Crowe as a folk song, but its genre was modified to pop following the production by Josh Ramsay.

2.) PayPhone By Maroon 5 (featuring American rapper Wiz Khalifa):
It was written by Adam Levine, Benny Blanco, Ammar Malik, Dan Omelio, Shellback and Wiz Khalifa, and it was produced by Benny Blanco and Shellback.

3.) Wide Awake by Katy Perry:
The song was written by Perry, Bonnie McKee, Dr. Luke, Max Martin, Henry Walter, and was produced by Dr. Luke and Cirkut.

4.) Somebody That I Used To Know by Gotye Featuring Kimbra
Written by Gotye

5.) Lights by Ellie Goulding
Written by Ellie Goulding, Richard Stannard (producer), Ash Howes (producer)

Hi Dayson, great topic:

From my limited view, it's a sad reflection on the "state of music" today. The internet has brought many gifts but at the same time has changed the music "game" entirely. I watched Dan Rather's report/show last night, filmed in Austin, TX and his panel of guests sure brought the problem into perspective.

I suppose the most shocking revelation was that the average income for performing artists and musicians last year was $16,000. Now that's tragic! That number did not include songwriters and before I finally dozed off, the subject of songwriters had not even been brought up. One of the panel members was a composer but that's a different "game" entirely.

Don't be too discouraged and I hope each of you continue to "live out your dream" musically.

All the best,

Dave

Hi Colin,

I was thinking along the same lines also.
I was looking at the Wikipedia profiles of some of them and
this confirmed it to a point.
Thanks for chiming in!-Dana

Hi Kevin,

Yes your example listed is exactly what I am talking about.
I understand the reason to a point, producers should get credit but
usually they are listed separately or at least in the past they were.
So when I see this list,not only do I think of how the strength of the Song is diluted but also the share of the already dwindling songwriters share.
This includes having the full credit or value of your work being appreciated as well.-Thanks for the example and comments-Dana

Hello Dave,

Yes, I agree this is a tragic aspect of the new game we all must participate in if we want to move forward.
This really makes me appreciate a writer that possess both craftsmanship and musicianship.

It gives you so much more power at the bargaining table.
Usually Producers are compensated from the Fund provided by the Record Label, but as you said with some many of the shares of the actual Songwriter being reduced to get a Major cut it's hard to tell anymore.

Don't worry though this is another challenging aspect of the business side of music,I love it too much to stop.
Thanks for commenting!-Dana

Definitely the truth. I believe some of it is due to business issues and some of it is due to the production process.

As far as the production process goes, I can offer a small example of one of Justice's songs we are recording for her new cd. The song is Wish. Spencer Hansen wrote the music. Justice came up with the idea for the song and part of the first verse and basic for the hook. I wrote a set of lyrics. We went to the studio and started working on a melody. TJ Sadler, the producer for the song, came up with the melody and also made substantial changes in the chous, rewriting it almost completely. Then we threw out my bridge and brought in Hector Valladerez, a rapper, to do a rap for the bridge. He wrote and performed the bridge rap. Justice recorded the vocals. So far there are about 30 tracks for the song. We will also call in another producer, Eric the man, who is going to listen and provide his input. He may write some guitar parts to add. Then it will go to Lucas Kellison for final mixing. Lucas may have some ideas for adding parts or making changes in the song. So how many songwriters will there finally be? Maybe seven.... and all will have contributed materially to shaping the song.

I HATE all of this....I used to LOVE Dan Fogelberg and other Singer Songwriters because of what THEY HAD TO SAY.
Production Songwriting is 5 different takes on an issue. In my HUMBLE opinion it sucks!!!

I love some of the songs...don't get me wrong BUT I hate it anyway. I write ALL my own music and sometimes use outside lyricists....BUT I tried to send half of a lyric to a Great Lyricist and it came out so bad I took it back and finished it myself....There was two different ideas and takes on the subject. I LOVE writing my Story and Music and Singing it!!
Guess I'm lucky to be able to do it. Barry

The new method of production is more complicated but I find it to be a lot of fun - and I think that the results can be compelling. I know that each step of the process for the projects I am involved with result in better songs.

Tom

Songwriting by committee.LOL

It seems our former poster, Alan Burnette espoused co-writing in Nashville. Supposedly it got you a better chance in placing something. Maybe most songs are co-written back as far as songwriting goes. Co-Writing with the Artist is good if the artist is sucessful. Some Artists will not cut a song if their name isn't on it as a co-writer, even tho the didn't write a word. So you may have to make a decision if an artist wants to cut one of your songs and also wants part of the copyright. In that case you will and will want to negoiate a good deal.

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for all the input on this topic.
Tom, you've given a great example, how do you guys decide to split everything?

You also said you have a Rap on the Bridge part of the song, what happens when you have a version of the song without the Rap, do you still give a share to the Rapper even though his not part of that particular version?

This is so interesting to know how some of us will deal with this issue when it happens by and it will:)

Hi Barry, yes you are very lucky to be able to do both!
One of my biggest fears is having a great song and you run into creative differences you can't resolve and the song is lost.

I've actually had something like this happen to me before when I did a collaboration on a track that was sent to me from some producers overseas and we agreed upfront in even splits I wrote the lyric and melody for the song and then when it came time for the song to be released by Colombia for a girl group,they sent me a letter telling my contribution had been reduced to 5 or 10% of the song due to other musical collaborators on the production side.

So of course with such a dispute the record producer did not want to be involved with any song that had those kind of disputes and decided not to record it:(

The Song had great potential and it was lost just like that!
So I would caution everyone upfront to get everything in writing and not to leave any "daylight" of understanding between you and a possible collaborator.

Ray, you are so right about that! So you have to spell out all those possibilities before you even begin to put something together.

I heard that once you put the parts together in a recorded format that it could be considered a legal collaboration absent something in writing stating otherwise.

If you don't want to lose a great song with a collaborator I would recommend some sort of grace period or something of the sort where each contributor could take back whatever part they put into the song, if such a disagreement should arise, others may have differing opinions and I respect that too:)

But have an understanding in place before you invest time and money!
Try to prepare for all the scenarios you have listed and the plan going forward of how to handle it when they do.

Sorry if this went a little off topic:)

Dayson - No disputes - every song writer gets an equal share. One advantage of working with good people is that they are reasonable.

As far as a version without the rap, it won't happen. The rap is integral to the song. This is different than some rap/song combs such as Rihanna and Eminem's song Love the Way You Lie, which has two very clearly different versions.

Everett, there is a danger that it could become songwriting by committee but that is not how we do it. It is more like separate layers of petals of a flower............. The producer is in charge and makes the decisions - no fussing around.

Tom

Dayson, as a (former) attorney, one thing I have learned is that one is better off to be fair with everyone - and not try to take advantage or try to tighten down the thumb screws. Your point is well taken, however. There is a potential danger of a dispute with more songwriters. One has to be mindful of this and take care of the business/legal side of things.

Ironically it only becomes an issue if the song goes viral. After all it is about 1 cent per cd for each songwriter in my example.

This, again, underscores the importance of having a good reputation in the music business. If one is thought of as being difficult to work with or unethical, their inbox stays empty.

New ways of songwriting in hip hop, R&B and now in pop
started many years ago...
and the main point is: producer rules, cuz he starts before
any others - top line writers, lyricists, singers...
Strongly recommended to read this article (it has been discussed
here before):
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/03/26/120326fa_fact_seabrook

and just one excerption:

"...In 2009, both Beyoncé and Kelly Clarkson had hits (Beyoncé’s “Halo,” which charted in April, and Clarkson’s “Already Gone,” which charted in August) that were created from the same track, by Ryan Tedder."

I placed this quote to confirm my statement above...so, everything started from the BEAT, great beat produced by
Ryan Tedder and without it we never heard those hit songs made
over the same track!

Or watch this thread and have a listen to what it was about:
http://www.futureproducers.com/foru...ngwriting-lyricism/beat-good-but-416143/

Yea, the beat comes first in most pop songs also. The melody comes in at the very last stage - generally after the basic music tracks have been recorded.

This is quite contrary to my brain's programming - which is (was) firmly based on music from the 60's and 70's, where the melody was the focus. It is not that the melody is unimportant to the songs we are writing for Justice, it is just a different process.

Tom

Awful....!

Hi Tom,

Can you clarify what you mean, I was a little lost on the potential dispute part with other songwriters?
Do you mean about taking back what you have contributed if, you can't agree creatively?

I think it's important to have some safeguards in place, no one wants to lose a potential great song if they find the collaboration is not working in the way they want it to.
I don't think that is taking advantage of someone, especially if its agreed upfront.

(Not sure if that's what you meant or not)
I get the part of not wanting to tighten down the screws too much, because you want to give the song its freedom to grow into what it could be it's full potential.

Mike, I totally agree with you on that!
I'm not sure if most people who chose to collaborate know enough about a potential collaborator's ethical background, if all they have to go by is that persons Talent or skill.

This is one of the very reasons I stated putting everything upfront in the beginning because when money is involved things can change faster than the weather:)

Here is a breakdown of Percentages used as an example in the world of R&B/Hip Hop ect.

I got this from a Website, that was created by Sean Combs, first signed songwriter with many numerous hits by today's Top Artists.

The Business of Collaboration Splits Sample breakdown: 50% goes to to music and/or track writer and/or producer 20% goes to the lyricist if he comes up with the hook 10% for each verse 5% for the bridge 5% for the vamp hook Note: If a sample is being used, the writer of the sample gets up to 50% of the music split. This means the track producer might want some part of the other splits which reduces the lyricists percentages; Also, if the recording artist is a big name, they will probably get part of the writers' share.…

Dayson, it is always important that each songwriter knows what their part is in terms of how the production process works and in terms of possible earnings from the song. I am sure that there are many ways in which the earnings from a song can be split but in all the work I do it is just an even split. This works well in the context of what I am doing. I can certainly understand how it would be much different in other parts of the realm.

Dayson, there is no problem with any of the people I work with trying to take back what they have contributed or walking off in a snit..... First they are good, intelligent, talented, reasonable people. Second, the producer makes the decisions.

Heck, there have been many times that the producer has made determinations that were contrary to what I wanted or wrote. Many times. TJ Sadler and Lucas Kellison are the two producers I team with. I trust them both. In fact, although I am the executive producer (ie I pay for most of the costs), I tell them all the time - "You are the boss."

One example: I am working on an album project for Megan, a 25 year old country singer. Lucas Kellison is the producer. I am fronting most of the cost. I am also writing the first draft of most of the lyrics. Lucas and Megan only use about 1/3 of the songs I write. They have even rejected (very nicely) one song that I thought was the greatest country song ever written. Oh well..............

It's all good....... Give and take. I would not call it compromise - I don't like that word because it implies the songwriting by committee alluded to above by Everett. That is not good. Got to have trust in the producer and give him the final control ---- It works.

I don't want to make this sound like the process is very formal. It is not. These things are done in the context of sitting in the control room, in a relaxed easy manner, having fun and maybe even having a beer.



Tom

Perhaps the model of songwriting that has most inspired me is a video I saw of the Traveling Wilburys getting together and creating their signature album in three or four days. They all gathered in a tiny old house and wrote the songs - and recorded them in the kitchen. An amazing sense of cooperation and working together.

correction - it took them 10 days.....

Songs in Nashville are written by committees.

I'd love to add to my previous post: and what about
bands and their songs?

Once I read a post at site JoinMyBand.com where one band mate wrote that other band mates do state they own a copyright of a song that he wrote alone...what about it?
So, band is a committee?

Or, who invented the sound of Pink Floyd? Alan Parsons had done it!

Could Led Zeppelin's songs become so famous without incredible Jimmy Page guitar's magic?
Yeah, Led Zep is a committee too!

But as for Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin all this happened
almost 40 years ago, just now producer's role is even more important and often he takes a part in composition of a song
(see above example of Beyonce and Clarkson songs)

How do songs differ by genres? By arrangements,
whose job is this: to make a song's arrangement before even song appears?

the reasons are:

1) productions teams collaborating with artists or bands
and

2) artists using clips, licks, or lyrics of previous hits

One good example is ICE ICE BABY which used the cool lick from Pressure by David Bowie & Queen

Take a look at the 8 co writers on Ice Ice Baby

ICE ICE BABY (Legal Title)
BMI Work #699387
Songwriter/Composer Current Affiliation CAE/IPI #
1 BOWIE DAVID PRS 3960406
2 BROWN FLOYD BMI 231019321
3 DEACON JOHN RICHARD PRS 87029069
4 JOHNSON MARIO LA VELL BMI 231733789
5 MAY BRIAN HAROLD PRS 87038166
6 MERCURY FREDERICK PRS 77406269
7 TAYLOR ROGER MEDDOWS PRS 87044860
8 VAN WINKLE ROBERT MATTHEW BMI 228718453

Publishers
BEECHWOOD MUSIC CORPORATION BMI 2497012
EMI BLACKWOOD MUSIC INC BMI 223437493
ICE BABY MUSIC BMI 231305518
JOHNSON MUSIC BMI 229558343
KLINE PUBLISHING BMI 235019200
QPM MUSIC INC BMI 231305714
SCREEN GEMS-EMI MUSIC INC BMI 36205509
SONY/ATV SONGS LLC BMI 187062752
TINTORETTO MUSIC BMI 232700507
Additional Non-BMI Publishers

Artists
BIG DADDY
GLEE CAST
HAMMER
HIT CREW
VANILLA ICE
Denotes BMI Award Winning Song!

Hi Ande,

Thanks for posting this example! This is really mind blowing when you have to consider all the paperwork involving the splits ect.
I'm at a loss to how they figure it all out! lol-Dana

Great example Ande.

This post just confirms my one...
let's mark some people from the list:

MERCURY FREDERICK (aka Freddie Mercury)
DEACON JOHN
MAY BRIAN
TAYLOR ROGER

So, what they are?

They are famous rock band Queen, as for
me, one of the greatest bands ever

Next: what happened they got into
the list?

One thing happened: Vanilla Ice stole
bass intro from Queen's song Under Pressure (go to Youtube and compare basses)
then a big scandal appeared and as a result of it whole band Queen got into copyright owners of Ice Ice Baby.

All this just confirms my example from
JoinMyBand site.

Vanilla Ice stole even not the song's part
itself (top line) but element of an arrangement (bass line of intro) and this thing is a good reminder for
those who doesn't recognize a role of arrangement/producer in songwriting and success of any song.

PS. The same thing about DAVID BOWIE

Hi Guys,

I notice you don't see the same type of credit listings in Country Music, could this be considered a double standard?
I'm not diminishing the producers contributions in the process of Songwriting, they are important as well.

In today's Pop/Urban Music the Production can be one of the most important factors in the success of the song,on the other hand
Tracks in of themselves are not considered a "Song" alone.
I've read that songs are legally defined by the lyrics and melody.

I wonder if some Top Hit Country Producers feel they should be listed in the same fashion?

Ande's Post is what is called slicing the Pie extremely Thin! I would like to see all the "Royalities" paid out on that song! A few years ago BMI sent out Royality Checks. My Publisher got one at the time. He showed it to me. It was for a whopping 3 cents!

There is such a thing as Work for Hire. All the musicians, producers, etc., will be paid for their work and own nothing further in the production. Songwriter(s) will receive Royalities, Mechanical, and PRO if the song(s) are released. The Artist may receive an Advance if on a Label and royalities after the Advance is Re-Couped. There have been plenty of Horror Stories of Labels never re-couping the Advance hence the Artist never receiving anything beyond the initial advance.

Credits are fine. Just show me the money!

It can be argued that a Songwriting Credit is like money, it could lead into a door that was closed before:)-Dana

plus chord progression...so, melody, chord progression and lyrics
are subject of copyright, well, as I stated before with example
of 2 different hit songs that were recorded over the same track,
and that track had a chord
progression and appeared before melodies and lyrics, so, producers put their efforts into copyrighted thing CHORD PROGRESSION!
And second, there are millions of the songs that are covered with a dust on the shelves...cuz they sound bad without great arrangement and production.
Still, there are exceptions too - Adele is rare one of them.
So, songwriter could choose to get his/her song to the shelf and solely own it,
or to share some percentage with a producer and to get the song, maybe, at the charts, or published at least.

A U.S. Copyright form lists Music and Lyrics for copyright. There is no place for Chord Progression. You can go to the Copyright Web Site and look under Forms, (If I remember correctly) and look at the PA form or the PA Short form. You can print out the forms and examine them. Chord Progression would normally be a part of the music. You can Register a song with just a simple instrument and vocal or aceppelo if you wish. Today you should probably use a CD to register songs. The PA or PA Short form is the correct form to register a song or songs or you can use the ec Electronic Registration.

No, a chord progression is not part of the copyright. However, a recorded track is copyrighted as a recording (℗ not ©). Therefore, if you use someone's pre-recorded track, they become co-copyright holders of the final recording (in my opinion).

Country music is still split equally between the writers. They don't break out the hook or the melody because with out that contribution you might have nothing worthwhile.

I used to look down my nose at Glen Campbell 'cuz he'd insist on a portion of the Writers Share before he'd record a song...

So..guess I'm of The Old School here..heh...

Tho, in all fairness, it's never mattered to me How Many people it took to come up with a Great Song...as long as The Final Result kept its Original Focus.

Good thing we have Supercomputers now to keep track of Who-Gets-What...heh-heh...

...&..IF What-You're-Gettin's an average of "$17K-a-Year"...hmmm...that's close to Minimum-Wage-at-Wal-Mart...

Sure makes it hard to quit yer Day-Job, don't it? ;-)>
Best Wishes & Big Hugs,
Stan

Ain't that the truth!

The actual money issue only is relevant to about 1/galizzion of the songs written.

I would put myself in the 'Old School' dept. as well Stan.
The money aspect can be a downer compared to the old days for sure, but I'm betting if you can get a cut that would net you that first 17k, you can probably nail a few more and that could add up significantly.

There are other sources of revenue besides the mechanical aspect as well.
I'm not sure what the rate is concerning Jukeboxes but I hear they can add up nicely.

I miss the days of bernie taupin and elton john hooking up and making the magic-I guess the new way is to have many contributors-I think the songs lose the personality of the single writer or two-
tim

You saying that makes me wonder what the issues for songwriters were at that time...what were they talking about and unsatisfied with in the music industry.

Ice Ice Baby was a mega hit, and gave "under pressure" new life and new revenues. I saw a show where a writer thanked a current artist for using their old song.
WIKI gives many more details
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_ice_baby

another example is:

SOS Rihanna
"This song samples "Tainted Love," a 1981 hit by Soft Cell, which was originally recorded by Soul singer Gloria Jones. Ed Cobb, who wrote "Tainted Love," made out well when his obscure Soul song was covered into two #1 hits, meaning he receives songwriting credit and royalties on all these songs."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOS_(Rihanna_song)

another is All Summer Long (Kid Rock song)


Writer(s):
Edward King
Kid Rock
Gary Rossington
Uncle Kracker
Ronnie Van Zant
Robert Wachtel
Warren Zevon
Leroy Marinell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Summer_Long_(Kid_Rock_song)

With Multiple Collaborations now seeming to be the trend, I wonder how great solo writing Songwriters such as Diane Warren or Babyface(A couple of my Heroes)is faring in today's market?
I wonder if she has also had to Adapt to secure cuts in Today's market?

I know Babyface(Kenneth Edmonds)is collaborating with more writers
But, but Diane's style of writing (How do I live without you) (Don't want to miss a thing) seems to be rarely found on the top of the charts these days, especially when so many more Artist are writing their own songs.