If Tim McGraw etc. Said he would sing your song but wanted on as co writer would you say ok? It's sucks but I would do it.

That is a potentially provocative question.

I'll say.........OK, lets see whatcha got Timmy and we'll go from there.

Or, if he just want's a credit. sure whatever floats your boat. I don't see what that would benefit a star but I'm here to learn what I can.

Well,
If they want part of the royalties on their recording only I would be glad to as long as it's reasonable. If they want part of Copyright they would have to pay a good penny for that. Everything is negotiable. Just don't give away a song just to get it cut.

In a heartbeat.

Half of whatever comes from it is a bunch more than ALL of the zero you get otherwise.


If you see Tim, let him know I'm here....

He could make your song a hit that's why. You and him would be co writers even though he or she didn't do thing to write it. BUT it's a good business decision...A co write with a star that could make you a star....Seems like a good business thing to do.

Ray cracks me up, should be doing dry stand up comedy.

Of course of course and of course. Not only would I let Tim McGraw record my song, I'd let Ray record my song

This isn't a no brainier it's an un brainer. Hmm famous, chart topping, wealthy, influential country superstar wants to record my song.

In fact, id let him do it at no charge, in hopes of having a crack to sneak through.

Unless you have the greatest song ever written, like a Stairway to Heaven, or a Hotel California, give the damn thing away, it will collect dust, or currently, take up space on your computer

I'd let anybody record my songs. Except me, I'm not sure I'd allow myself to record one of my songs....

Uh, Fdemetrio,
Frank, Fiddlesticks or whatever your name is. "Crooks" will **** all over you if you let them. If they want your song bad enough, they can pay the going rate or pass, it makes no difference to me. I, you, took the time to write a good song, not everybody can do it, and you should get the credit for it. Do I have any good songs? On the Industry Board, under the Post New Web Site, you can go listen to a few of my songs. Never Mind! I am re-reading Jimmy Bowen's book about his experiences in the Music Business, ROUGH MIX. If you can find a copy you might want to read it. No, I won't let even Tim McGraw record any of my songs for nothing. No problem with splitting some Royalties but no giveaways. Nobody is looking for outside songs anyway so it is mostly moot.

Ray if our songs were so good, that Tim McGraw wants them, we wouldn't have to ask about the money.

So you are saying that if Tim McGraw calls you up. Hi Ray, this is Tim Mcgraw, in the event you didn't hang up thinking it was a crank call, but if he said, I really love your song, can I record it, it won't pay you anything but you will be given full credit, you wouldn't do it?

And the alternative being it sits in soundclick forever?

I have already done this to myself for no reason. Exposure is how most people get paid today. You can be famous today and not make much money

I don't think Tim wouldn't split the royalties he would just want some credit to give him songwriting cred...

Well Good Buddy,
Believe it or not, I have received unsoliciated letters, from producers saying I can submit songs to them anytime, and further more that they don't say that to everybody. Same answer, no freebies.

I'm sure he would pay standard rates and make sure you got paid your due.

But the whole concept is hypothetical anyway.

There are two "real world " example of this, with two different outcomes. They both revolve around cuts by ELVIS PRESLEY. And they both involve established stars. Now that is actually a different entity than an unknown writer ,who I believe SHOULD do whatever they could to get in the door. But these are established entities.

DOLLY PARTON, was approached by COL. TOM PARKER, when Elvis wanted to record "I'LL ALWAYS LOVE YOU." They didn't want Elvis to have credit as a writer but did want half the publishing. Dolly said "No" because the song had already been a hit on her. That song has gone on to be HUGE, especially due to the Whitney Houston cut, and financially Dolly has done just fine. But privately she does have regrets, because she would have loved to hear Elvis sing that song.

Another writer/artist, Jimmie Rodgers, was approached by Parker on another song. it was called "IT'S OVER" and also had been recorded by Jimmie. (This was Jimmie Rodgers, the ARTIST, not the singing brakeman, my distant relative. Jimmy had been a well known artist in the 50's with a song called "HONEY COMB" and was a "teen sensation" back in the days before Elvis.
In the 70's they approached Jimmy wanting PUBLISHING on that song for a little project coming up with a live telecast called "ALOHA FROM HAWAII."

Jimmy said the song was already published, but they came up with a compromise. They made a deal for half the publishing on THAT RECORDING ONLY. It was not for any other versions of the song.

Now, Jimmy Rodgers, lives on a cliff in Hawaii on the money that song made. And he can always say He had the Elvis cut.

Now, I have always had an issue with another song and it's very strange situation.

The song "AMERICAN FOLK TRILOGY", which was a huge hit for Elvis, Sinatra, and others, was credited to writer Mickey Newbury. It made his reputation, even though he had other songs like "Just Dropped in to see What condition my Condition was in" and others. But American Folk Trilogy was probably the biggest song he ever had.

BUT HE DIDN'T WRITE ANY OF THEM. They were comprised of three old folk songs from the 1800's,
Dixie, All My Trials, and Battle Hymm of the Republic. All were public domain songs. Mikey just put them together.

That is one I've never understood.

MAB

Ray, I got standard rejection letters many many times. We enjoyed your music, and yiu are welcome to submit more in the future, but at this time we do not have any interest in your song.

Nobody has ever said, man you are the worst songwriter I have ever heard, please do not waste your time or my time again.

Aw, Humm, Well,
I sent some songs to a listing in a Tip Sheet. Won't name the Publisher or whoever he was, but he sent me back a nasty letter saying not to submit to him anymore. Now nobody in his right mind does that they just politely pass on your songs. No problem. Several years later he was still in the Tip Sheets requesting songs so I sent another submission. Same Response. Nasty Insulting letter back. I think he went out of the business soon after.

No F. The letter I got was out of the blue. Not a standard rejection from a submission. The listings usually wanted a SASE for a response. A lot of them I submitted to never sent any response. I write them off as wanna be's and un professional. There are all kinds in the "Music Business".

I hear some of the Guys and Gals on the interview shows on GAC talking about how they wrote all the songs on their new album and when I go and look they are writing with two or three other people. I know nobody agrees with me but they are NOT writing those songs. I believe ( Just Me ) that they think it looks better to their dumb fans that they are Singer Songwriters and the are NOT.....It just irks me and I don't know why. If you are a great star and singer do that. BUT these bogus claims lately where every single one has their names on the credits as one of the songwriters is awful in my opinion. Miranda sang that great song The House That Built Me and didn't take any credit because she has some scruples.....She could have. And I don't see Blake doing it. It's all these new Hunks and Gals doing it and it is awful....Give credit to the songwriters. And I don't care if anybody agrees with me....ugh...If that's the business it sucks.

It happens all the time. ...and yes, if Adele or Willie Nelson... or someone with "Star-Power" said they would perform one of my originals... you bet I'd be happy for them to share credit. It's called "Paying Your Dues!" I agree with your implied sentiment... it's a dirty shame that it happens but otherwise, the quicksand just keeps pulling us down. If someone "throws me a musical rope"... just like my friend Floyd Jane... I'm grabbing that sucker and tying it around my waist. (Not my neck, though!)

Interesting topic.

All the best, ----Dave

[quote=On the Industry Board, under the Post New Web Site, you can go listen to a few of my songs. [/quote]

What's the Industry Board?

TIA

Um, Sorry,
Industry Message Forum. Who cares anyway.

Oh, thanks.

Ok.

Since something is more and zero to paraphrase floyd, sure.

I would probably do it as long as I got credit and half the royalties (and I thought they could do the song justice). For free? No way; I would have no use for that "star" after that because most of them are already filthy rich and stealing all MY royalties would be a bit much. Certainly they can afford to pay me my half (or quarter as it were because of the publishing house).

Now for something like an Indie film, I would license that for free because their budgets are limited. But I would still retain ALL rights to MY song. I sold a song years ago, and will never do that again.

--TC

I definitely would.

A more real world example of this would be a pro song plugger or writer who wants to rewrite your lyric to make it more "commercial". I've had this happen several times and each time the resulting song was unlistenable. So bad I was embarrassed to post them on the internet. One guy's publisher paid for a full band demo. My wife heard it and pinched her nose.

In some cases I can never pitch my original lyrics again because they now belong to the pro's pub.

Be careful out there...

Well, that's still a small price to pay. If you have hundreds of lyrics, and can write a hundred more, what would be the benefit of hanging on to that one?

I see the point that your reputation as a writer is on the line, but then again, you may not ever have a reputation if you don't do something like that.

That goes back to my post about would you rather be a known one hit wonder, or an unknown writer of great songs.

Hey, John Mellencamp had to record under the name John Cougar, and I think the name Cougar fit his songs like hurts so good pretty well. Once he was established, he took his name back.

I think we all will compromise, the question is how much are you willing to bend?

Well Fdemetrio,
I once sent a request some songs. I got a letter back saying they would press my Train Song if I would give them permission. Hell I asked myself, what Train Song? So I ignored the letter. Sometime later the guy sent me another letter this time identifying the song. But it was just a demo so I told him I didn't have permission to release it. But he continued to Badger me so I finally called the guy that did the Demo to see if he would give permission. I got permission so i gave the guy a license to release the song. Hell It was free for 500 copies and I thought it would at least give me some publicity on the song.

For the the record, if somebody wanted to re-write one of my songs of which is granted in a publishing contract, I would want the right to reject it unless an Artist was editing it to record it. On my songs I know what I have and the music people know what they have. They want something, I want something. Any more questions?

Sure, I would do it in a minute. But then, I have no scruples. So, down the road I may tell everyone what a phony, low-life Tim was. Then I might file a sexual harassment suit and draw a mustache on some of his billboards.

John

Barry,
There are actually a lot of things involved in this. First of all, when Miranda, and Blake, etc. got started it was a different era. They were signed under record deals that would allow them to record songs that they did not write. In fact, they both wrote a lot of their own songs that DIDN'T get recorded until they had enough success built up to let their songs take presidence.

For the past 5-8 years if you weren't involved with those new artists from the beginning or writing within their tight circles, you didn't even get anything listened to. The process is to get the new artists with the latest hit writers and let the artists talk about what they wanted to say, and the writers write the song. Not a bad idea actually as the artist is the one that has to be out there selling the song night after night. So you want them involved in the writing of the song. And it is rarely a 50/50 thing. Most people don't even get a line in a song but the energy in the room dictates where the song may go. Some little thing an artist says might lead the song in a different direction and totally change where it was going. Can't be understated.

The next is PROPRIETARY OWNERSHIP. If a publishing company or record company, production company is going to even be in a deal to begin with they are going to be a PRINCIPAL OWNER OF EVERYTHING. Publishing, record sales, digital, merchandising, touring, etc. It's a simple principal. If you are putting up the money for everything and one thing (physical sale of product like CD's or legal downloads) diminish to the point of not even being there, you are going to make it up in other aspects like touring, merchandising and endorsements.
So you are going to get the artists as involved in every aspect of the song.

Now, of course this leads to a lot of substandard songs, which has brought down the industry in ALL genres. But it is what it is. You can either play by the established rules or not play. You always have a choice.

MAB

Ray, I once got s record contact mailed to my home, a contact I found in songwriters market. What's funny about that book, is before the book is even released, many of the companies are already defunct.

So, with that type of company offering me a deal, He liked my voice and thought he could produce a "hit" with one of my songs

My dad at the time went with me to a lawyer, cause my dad was one of these guys who didn't believe tommorow was Friday.

The lawyer looked at the contract and saw holes all over it. We didn't sign it

Looking back, why the hell not? What was the difference? I never looked at that batch of songs again, and now view them as songs I wouldn't want credit for. That demo sits in cassette tape in a crate, and I've written probably 500 songs since.

But it did me no good not signing, at least there was a flicker of a chance if I had.

One thing for sure, if your trying to make it on your own terms, good look with that. Compromise is a part of life. So long as you can live with yourself, which you should be able to, it's only a damn song, then why not?

Some things in life are sacred and untouchable, a song is not

Sounds good Marc.

I've changed so much over the years as I got more experience at all this. I should have become a Doctor like my Mom wanted but stupid me didn't listen...lol

It's not a matter of how many lyrics I have...it's how I feel about them. Pride of authorship. Plus, I have thousands of lyrics but most aren't commercial. I'm proud of Spirit of the Delta but most people wouldn't know what it's about. (Through no fault of their own) The lyrics the "pros" ruined had commercial potential. Funny thing is, their rewrites destroyed what was likable about them and turned them as bland as tap water. It's as if a publisher told Peter Benchley, "I love your manuscript, but can you take out the shark? It might offend soccer moms".

And I'd much, much rather be me than John Mellencamp. I realize sacrifices must be made. I made them and learned my lesson. The last time a "pro" offered to rewrite my song to make it more commercial, I politely declined. The song was gonna be cut by an up and coming band. The band came to nothing.

Well I guess it's a matter of personal conviction more than business. If you aren't willing to have somebidy chop up your song, which is understandable, but then you don't really want a career as a songwriter.

I do find it hard to believe that if offered a major cut if you were just willing to let your song get changed, that you wouldn't do it.

If and when I record my album, it will be what I want to do, but I also no that nobody is going to offer me a lot of money for my music.

A homeless guy who writes songs, is not going to object to anybody doing anything to his song, he's going to sign the dotted line

Integrity is a very allusive and abstract concept

I'd love to see a Homeless guy write a HIT...that would be a great story. He could write it about HIM and How he became Homeless and it would be great....

Of course not! For that would have told me that my song was worthy for such a star and his/her release.

After saying, "thank you for the offer, but no thanks", I would have sought a top music attorney, to then shop that song to publishers of other such artists. The music attorney would of course be believed when mentioning WHO wanted THAT SONG! At the most, I or the attorney, could offer a percentage of the publishing to the artist as an incentive. But, NOT to have their name as if they wrote it with me. Have them write me to make the song better, SURE! Then, and only then would they earn and deserve to be credited for writing the song. Geeezzz!! Just give them a little piece of the publishing if not contributing to rewriting the song.

John

Without even blinking. Think about it this way, You write something they like so much that they will put their brand on it. Getting McGraw on your song would be like making your own sodastream cola and have it distributed by pepsi.

You can benefit from that branding for the rest of your life, and use it to open all types of doors. Its never just about one song, its about the perspective.

Does it matter if the star contributes, well the star contributes with the branding and the performance, not the writing, so it is a way of maximising business. But Id say its a win-win, especially if you are a new writer.

I don't think established artist with scruples would ask to be included as writer. I would not feel right taking credit for something that someone else did. They would be lying to start with, if they were established, they would not need that money, so it would be like stealing, taking something that belonged to someone else. I believe there was a case where Willie Nelson sold a song early in his career to an established artist, but I believe that artist gave Willie credit for it later. Not sure of my facts on that, but I believe it to be true.

Most heroes don't like being called a hero, because they did what they feel anyone would do in that circumstance. Would they not feel guilty for taking praise and money for something that someone else did. I did say if they had scruples.

I believe many of these artists think what they add vocally adds to the songwriting. And in some cases, it does. I’ve had singers make my songs better through improvising. Most singers will alter a note here & there. And that is part of the melody. Which is part of the songwriting.

John

If you're smart and have a good lawyer, you hold onto everything you can legally keep. Get everything in writing, keep more than one copy of everything, and make no compromises that prevent you from sleeping at night.

Funny you mentioned him in particular... nuff said on that....

I actually have experience with this scenario. The artist wanted the song and I was given the heads up. I hear back weeks later from the producers and the artist decided they wanted to change the lyrics in the song (thus getting their name on the song). My co-writers and I were not cool with that and said so. We were willing to lose the cut by not allowing the artist and his label to go behind our backs the way they did. We got our way and they cut the song the way we wrote it.

If you believe in something strong enough and if they want it bad enough, standing your ground matters. Don't let people push you around just because they want a piece of something that doesn't need changing. Your copyright and publishing belongs to you. If you absolutely have to negotiate giving up a portion of your publishing, that's one thing. But don't let anyone put their name where it doesn't belong.

I didn't and I still got the cut.

Amen Brother. Many times the changes they make only weakens the song.

I agree with you about not wanting to take credit for a song they had nothing to do with.
Even if they change a little thing here and there I would admire them for not taking any credit.
It's greedy and it's a lie to their Fans to make it seem like they are a Songwriter when many are not.
Just My Opinion and I realize many here don't agree with me.