Songtradr Says This: "We may modify this Agreement from time to time by posting the amendments on the Site, and such modifications shall be effective upon such posting. Our right to modify this Agreement includes the right to add, remove or amend the terms hereof".

So, when one agrees to their terms, they would still be agreeing to the sudden NEW terms, which they didn't agree to?

Hmmm. Brian, what say you?

Thanks,
John

Well, that's one agreement I wouldn't agree to.

I say, in my opinion, based on what you posted, that either it's the most dishonest, evil website run by crooks I have seen in the 32 years of doing this, OR they have a moron doing their terms of agreement or perhaps even both. Regardless, I wouldn't even visit their site let alone agree to such idiotic terms. My opinion, if those "terms" are real is they are evil, but they are welcome to clarify or refute that term anytime.

Brian

Amen, Brian!

----Dave

It's probably just a template or part of a template used by multiple lawyers. Many websites have similar terms. See below for examples.

https://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/itunes/us/terms.html
"Apple reserves the right at any time to modify this Agreement and to add new or additional terms or conditions on your use of the Services. Such modifications and additional terms and conditions will be effective immediately and incorporated into this Agreement. Your continued use of the Services will be deemed acceptance thereof."

https://www.airbnb.ca/terms
"Airbnb reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to modify the Site, Application or Services or to modify these Terms, including the Service Fees, at any time and without prior notice. If we modify these Terms, we will post the modification on the Site or via the Application and/or provide you notice of the modification by email. We will also update the “Last Updated” date at the top of these Terms. Changes to the Terms will be effective at the time of posting. Your continued access or use of the Site, Application or Services will constitute acceptance of the modified Terms."

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/page/terms-of-service/
"We reserve the right to change or modify any of the terms and conditions contained in the Terms or any policy or guideline of the Sites, at any time and in our sole discretion. Any changes or modification will be effective immediately upon posting of the revisions on the Sites, and you waive any right you may have to receive specific notice of such changes or modifications."

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/terms-of-service/
"We reserve the right to change or modify any of the terms and conditions contained in the Terms of Service or any policy or guideline of the Sites at any time and in our sole discretion. Any changes or modification to the terms and conditions will take effect immediately upon posting of the revisions on the Sites."

http://www.sae.edu/terms-and-conditions
"we may modify this agreement from time to time and notice of revisions to this agreement will be posted here. Continued use of the service by you will constitute your acceptance of any changes or revisions to the agreement."

https://www.reverbnation.com/termsandconditions
"WE RESERVE THE SOLE RIGHT AT ANY TIME TO MODIFY, DISCONTINUE, OR TERMINATE ANY SERVICE OR THE SITE, OR CHANGE, ADD, OR DELETE PORTIONS OF THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS WITHOUT NOTICE. WE WILL POST CHANGES TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, IF ANY, TO THE SITE. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO CHECK THE SITE PERIODICALLY FOR CHANGES. YOUR CONTINUED USE OF THE SITE AND SERVICES AFTER ANY CHANGES CONSTITUTES YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF THE REVISED TERMS AND CONDITIONS."

https://www.musicxray.com/terms-of-service
Music Xray reserves the right to change or modify any of the terms and conditions contained in the Client’s Agreement, the General Agreement, and the Forms at any time at its sole discretion, and to determine whether and when any such changes apply to both existing or future customers. Any modifications will be effective upon posting the revisions to the terms and conditions posted via Music Xray’s corporate website.

http://www.broadjam.com/legal/user.php#id1.18
You agree that, at any time, Broadjam may revise, change or modify any terms and conditions of this Agreement and/or any aspect of any Service, without notice to you. You can review the most current version of this Agreement at any time at: http://www.broadjam.com.

http://ourstage.com/about/terms
OurStage shall have the right at any time to (a) change the terms of these Terms, (b) change the Site, including eliminating or discontinuing any content or feature of the Site, restricting the hours of availability, or limiting the amount of use permitted, or (c) change any fees or charges for use of the Site, including instituting new or increased fees or charges for the use of the Site or any other Site-related services or any feature thereof. Such changes, modifications, additions, or deletions shall be effective immediately upon notice thereof, which may be given by means including, but not limited to, posting on the Site, or by electronic mail, or by conventional mail.

http://www.soundclick.com/docs/legal.cfm?site=terms
Modification of Terms and Conditions: From time to time SoundClick may modify these Terms and Conditions in its sole discretion. When such modification is made, SoundClick will post a revised version of these Terms and Conditions on the Website. Modifications will be effective when they are posted. SoundClick is not required to provide you with notification that any such modification has been made. It is your responsibility to review these Terms and Conditions from time to time to be aware of any such modifications. Each time you log on to the Website, you will be deemed to have accepted any such modifications.

Right but it is something they notify you of and I trust a brand like Apple not to say something patently unfair, not some small time company who hasn't earned the respect and trust of the world.

ALL these agreements are egregiously bad. But by saying these agreements become effective upon posting on the site, NOT after you CONTINUE TO USE the site, means they could say, we now "complete ownership throughout the universe and for all time" (which many current agreements use by the way) and since it is worded that way, it is retroactive and thus legally they could steal anything they pleased. It's bullshit and is NOT common nor acceptable. I am surprised you would support it/justify it SongCat. That's disappointing to read. I haven't visited the site. It is yours?

Brian

Not to mention the second, third, fourth and fifth examples you gave are not sites where you may be uploading content which you own and created beyond a statement on a message board. I don't know what the initial site listed above does, but if it allows you to put songs, lyrics, photos or anything else of value on the site, you are essentially giving everything away to them forever without compensation if they choose. Who the hell would accept those conditions. It's bad faith and not a company who has earned any benefit of any doubt. I hope it wasn't your site, though you came here pretty quickly and did some work defending it so that worries me a bit. If you are involved in it, please fix it.

Brian

Brian, I'm not sure where I indicated that I'm associated with the company or where I indicated support for the clause in the terms. I'm neither part of that entity, nor do I show any support. All I wanted to get across is that things aren't always black or white. There is a whole lot of grey between the two and often times a company uses a lawyer, that lawyer has templates, many others base their terms upon similar templates, and hence many companies have similar parts in their terms and we're probably members of a whole lot of those sites ourselves. I just think it's harsh to call someone a "crook" or "moron", without knowing the exact circumstances. There are probably millions of websites with similar wording, many run by non crooks or morons and probably even very honest people. I know many JPF members probably have accounts with Apple, Airbnb, Reverbnation, OurStage, Music XRay or Broadjam, all of whom have similar wording in their terms and yet, they aren't all crooks or morons I hope.

Chris,

Those terms are VERY different. It requires you to CONTINUE usage (on the music related sites, the others have no real relevance to compare to a music site) before changes apply. Go and read what you posted. But to say you can change terms of a binding contract without notice and without action by the concerned parties is dishonest, scam artist, crooked policy OR the people doing it have no idea what they are doing. In either case, it's very bad for the user and all good for that site to literally do anything they please with any content you place on it. Sorry, a few harsh words from me hardly turn them into the victims. They are the perpetrators all the way. Since you state you don't know them or their motivations, how can you endorse what they've done as being anything less than treacherous to possible users? Add to that, let's say these people have 100% honest intent, but a year from now they can't make it work, so they sell off their assets (a VERY common practice) to the worst entity your mind can dream up who ALSO have those same rights over your material. You think I over reacted? Really?

Would you put your entire life's work on a site with those terms? Would you direct your clients to do so? I would hope you would do the opposite and avoid such places and warn others to do the same. I have 57K members and I am warning them all to do the same, run away and never do any business under such terms. You should reconsider your position.

Brian

Again Brian, I don't see how you can think that I'm taking anyone's position here. The only position I'm taking is that I don't agree with public name calling, especially when it comes to a clause many, widely used websites with good reputation also use. All I'm trying to say is that other companies have similar terms which makes me think it is part of a template or a "common practice" by some lawyers and not necessarily "evil intend". Now, if you go through the list of the websites I mentioned (it's updated by now), you will find a few that say essentially the exact same thing (some of the music related ones as well by the way). Yes, some say it requires you to "CONTINUE usage" while others clearly state the new terms take effect as soon as they're posted without mentioning continuation of usage.

Since you asked me some questions, let me answer: No, I would not put my entire life's work on a site with those terms, but for that matter, I wouldn't put my entire life's work on any site under any terms. It's important to spread the risk, discontinue what doesn't work and double down on things that do work.

That's the advice I would also give my clients. All of my clients are grown ups (so are your 57k members) and they can make up their own mind under which terms they want to join a particular site. I sure would not call them, or anyone else on the list of websites I posted "crooks" or "evil", especially not publicly ;-)

If I may butt in?

Hey Brian, thank you for always keeping an eye-out for the bottom-feeders!!!

Hey Chris!!!:-)....Got your PM....Thanks! Will follow up as best I can, starting with this:

To all and sundry.:

Chris is a long-time member here, not as active as he would like to be, but he has recently updated his User Name from "Songcat" to "Chris Erhardt", and changed his signature line to https://tunedly.com which is nothing more, nor less than a very good value demo service if needed.

But in regards to this thread, Chris' first response started with him saying:

"It's probably just a template or part of a template used by multiple lawyers".

I can't speak for others, but what I got from Chris' initial response was nothing more nor less than him pointing out "templates" that lawyers use for a variety of companies.

Speaking only for myself, I think that Chris was just offering up templates that lawyers use on various websites...At this point in this thread, I don't think anyone would argue that "Songtradr" is nothing more than a low budget scam!!!

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"...From Macbeth, written by some dude who keeps signing his tweets as BillyShakes:-)...Ok, I made the BillyShakes twitter up:-)

Bottom line?

Welcome back Chris, glad to see you being more active here!

Keep on keepin' on!

Midnite

You most certainly may butt in Midnite. Thanks for welcoming me back. I don't think killing lawyers will do the trick. Too many templates have already been written and are out there ;-) I'll be more active going forward, at least until the next larger scale project comes up. Great to see all the familiar faces still on here and Brian trying hard to keep the board and discussions alive. I know it's not easy!