Hah....I know I'll regret this given I'll forget some and be reminded by y'all.

1: macca
2: john lennon
3: paul simon
4: andy partridge
5: shawn colvin
6: neil finn
7: jimmy webb
8: burt bacharach (sic?)
9: harry Nilsson?
10: fagan/becker

Okay, let me have it.

Neil Diamond wrote all his own lyrics and melodies...and Billy Joel is or was amazing....
Who is Macca...? Leonard Cohen......

Macca is Paul McCartney

Gotta watch the Yankees Mets and the Tonys,between commercials but I'll be back

My Rays Suck.....and I'd love to be involved in writing songs for musicals....Oh well maybe my next life....

Fugg, joel and diamond, godammitt!

We had a list like this before, always hard to agree on 10. All those guys are great.

I really think a list has to be in categories, and eras. Without
categories it's more personal likes. You can't compare Merle Haggard with Prince. You can't compare Pete Seeger with Smokey Robinson. Even decades are hard...

Can you compare Ray Davies with Jack White, I gues you could, but i think we all realize that modern songwriters are not in that league, but they can still be great

You can't compare Dolly Parton and Taylor Swift, even.

But my personal list....id have any easier time coming up with 50 and breaking them into categories and eras but....

Beatles, all of them, Mic and Keith, Ray Davies, Smokey Robinson, Pete Townshend, The Boss, Billy Joel, Neil Young, Tom Waites,
Paul Simon.

There's so many though in so many cats and eras

Joni, Lucinda, Happy Rhodes...girl power...WHAA-WHAA!!!

Gahhh, prince and joni.....

How bout...

Graham Parker, Warren Zevon, Tom Petty, John Prine,
Mark Knopfler.

So many people that ALMOST make the list, but we're glad they are there.

Elton John and Bernie Taupin and of course
Barry Butler......At least I think so anyway....LOLOLOL....

Yes, we can't omit the Butler.

The Butler did it!

FORGIVE ME...Carole King and James Taylor!!!

Twelve posts in and no one has suggested Dylan?

Yikes

Scott

I know Scott, this has come up before. He is THE singer songwriter, but I'm more a fan of the people he influenced more than himself.

I can't like a singer songwriter because I'm supposed to, I have to actually like the music. I like a handful of Dylan's songs very much, but I don't listen to him for entertainment...aside from like a rolling stone

I think these lists show how biased we are too.

No r&b songwriters mentioned. No metal songwriters, no reggae songwriters, no classical songwriters. No garage or punk singer songwriters.

no dance singer songwriters. Few if any folk singer songwriters

Imagine this was a mostly metal site, they'd be listing Ozzie!

Ahhh jeez, dylan....king.....taylor.....okay top fifty.

Well,
Couldja put some songs to these "Greatest" songwriters?

Lol Ray.

Cmon no Marty Robbins El Paso, or Hank Williams I'm so lonesome I could die, lol

Ray hasn't seen any good songwriters yet gang....

Our goose is cooked!

Well Lessee "Fido",
Why don't you go find that song I'VE FORGOTTEN MORE THAN YOU WILL EVER KNOW by the Davis Sisters! Or, ALL THE MONKEYS AIN'T IN THE ZOO by Tommy Collins, or PHILADELPHIA LAWYER by Maddox Brothers and Rose or YONDER COMES A SUCKER by Jim Reeves or SMOKE ALONG THE TRACK by Stonewall Jackson, etc., etc., etc. Great songwriters? Too many to count.

Well lessee "Strodeo"

Nobody agrees, but you are the worst...u wont even credit McCartney and Lennon.

But bring it its fun...

Um Wow,
Didja know those Beatles were influenced by Slim Whitman and many other Country Artists who toured regularly overseas?

Well, to your point, that is why it's so hard to come up with a unified list.

There are folks like you who only listen to 1950s Country, how could you possibly cover it all. You wouldn't even be able to come up with an unbiased country list. All we can do is write a favorites list.

Nobody is gonna mention a....Marvin Gaye, Luther Vandross, Stevie Wonder

Nobody is gonna mention a Bob Marley, or a Joe Strummer or an Ozzie Osbourne

It proves that lists are biased based in age, genre, and likes.

What might be good, is have people give reasons why they think their guy or gal is one of the best, maybe we could learn from it

For me it's plural, and when I think Fuggs, I think Sanders and Kupferman. Brilliant!

[i][/i]
I think that's the point. It IS personal. To know people, know their music. In a way, it's a more meaningful snapshot than a demographic profile.

Aw, Gee, Shucks,
I have all kinds of music in my collection. Today I broke out a 4 CD collection, THE EARLY 30's, Those were our songs. I will mention one song in the Collection. PAPER MOON. you heard it "Fido"? If not it is probably posted on youTube.

Ray,
So explain to me why Paper Moon is a great song. I don't want you to copy and paste it off of some site, I want you to tell me why it's a great song.

I don't have a problem with the song, that's when songwriting was precise and not a wasted word. But you lead the way....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TvnnOLjHHNI

It is only a paper moon
Hanging over a cardboard sea
But it wouldn't be make believe
If you believe in me
It is only a canvas sky
Sailing over a muslin tree
But it wouldn't be make believe
If you believe in me

Without your love
It's a honky-tonk parade
Without your love
It's a melody played on a penny arcade
It's a Barnum and Bailey world
Just as phony as it can be
But it wouldn't be make believe
If you believe in me

Without your love
It's a honky-tonk parade
Without your love
It's a melody played on a penny arcade
It's a Barnum and Bailey world
Just as phony as it can be
But it wouldn't be make believe
If you believe in me

Why not?

Someone asked Dylan who the greatest poet of the twentieth century was, and he said Smokey Robinson.

That's a great answer. I love Smokey, but it's not a question that has a right or wrong answer. Ray will probably tell you what's great about "Paper Moon." But all songs are paper moons - great only if they're great in the eye of the beholder.

Eh, Well, Fdemetrio,
Why is Paper Moon a great song? Well maybe that is like trying to explain why the sky is blue. The song is not too complicated, has that something that gets your attention. One of the biggest hits of all time was IN THE JAIL HOUSE NOW. Written by Jimmy Rogers and made a huge Hit by Webb Pierce. Very simplistic but had something that got your attention.

Tons of great songs out there written by many people over time. You may not be able to explain a great song, but you will know one when you hear it.

Holland, Dozier and Holland...MO Town...

Without looking at the previous posts I shall name some of my candidates:

Bob Dylan
Gordon Lightfoot
Kris Kristofferson
Mary Chapin Carpenter
Lucinda Williams
John D. Loudermilk
Joni Mitchell
John Prine

I now have eight; guess I'll let the rest of you have a crack in who should round out the top 10.

Oh snap, lightfoot and prine.

Delmont, it's funny Dylan said that about Smokey. I don't consider Smokey a great poet, but i do consider him one of the best pop songwriters of all time, but I'm not gonna argue with Dylan either, not unless he shows up here and starts something.........lol.

But nobody ever mentions the smokester

Ray, your answer seems more like "I don't know, I just like it"

I listened and read the lyric and found a number of things I thought made it good.

But Mick Jaggar sang "I know, it's only Rock n Roll, but I like it"

But I thought if u picked it apart u might give us something we could use....

It's funny how pop songwriters get overlooked....

How bout Hall and Oates, one of the most successful, and great, pop songwriting duos of all time, an endless string of hits.

And they are the real deal musically and vocally.

This one always makes me feel good, but they have at least 20 great songs

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YoFJgLmbYZE

This was fun came on right after the above video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WPHetGFUHqI

Tough, but here goes:

1. Bruce Springsteen
2. Tom Petty
3. Mark Knopfler
3. Elvis Costello
4. John Lennon
5. Graham Parker
6. Nick Lowe
7. John Martyn
8. Neil Young
9. James Taylor
10. Carol King

Yeah Gocart, I forgot about Elvis Costello.

Glad some people recognize The Boss as one of the best. I dont think he has to take a back seat to anyone, but he was NOT a hit songwriter

Petty, parker, young....yep, killin' me with after thought.

And I'm more interested in the people who influenced him. Too bad Woody Guthrie doesn't count as the past fifty years!

PS -

No, no, no! Aretha Franklin and Mick Jagger are THE songwriters. Dylan is A songwriter. (He does turn some pretty fine lines, though.)

Well that's true Delmont. Dylan and Guthrie deserve their place,but when we say songwriter, what are we saying?

Dylan's lyrics are the only reason people consider him The G.O.A.T

But songs are more than lyrics. There are hundreds if not thousands of artists who write better melodies, and better music in general, than Dylan and Guthrie

He gets elevated cause of his social context, and commentary. and his poetry which he managed to make into songs, and even into pop

Don't get me wrong, Dylan is still talented musically and very artistic, I just think his legend preceeds him In these conversations.

I think you just did.

How come you didn't?

Because I didn't post a list.

We know.

That's one of the things that makes this an entertaining question. It doesn't leave room for teams - Lennon and McCartney, Garcia and Hunter, John and Taupin, Leiber and Stoller.

well lets see your list, mine was written already....

I have no idea. I'm not even sure I get the question. My ten favorite? The ten that I think are the most popular? The top ten in sales? The top ten on the Hit Parade? The ten most prolific? The ten that critics like best?

And - past fifty years? Martha Reeves is still alive, but her big hits were all pre-1968. So would she count or not? And, shoot, what's the fun of a top songwriter list if you can't name Woody Guthrie, Aunt Molly Jackson, Leadbelly, Robert Johnson, or Florence Reece?

Anyhow, to answer one of your questions, I didn't name any of the ones you did because I wouldn't have thought of them. You did.

Here are ten I can think of offhand. I'd include Garcia/Hunter, Jagger/Richards, and maybe Lennon/McCartney, but the question specifies individuals, not teams. Anyhow:

Ry Cooder
Aretha Franklin
John Hiatt
Tish Hinojosa
B.B. King
Lyle Lovett
Mike Scott
Nina Simone
Tom Waits
Frank Zappa

PS -

Actually, not Lennon/McCartney. I never put them on.

Frank Zappa, absolutely deserves mention, although he was always critical of rock and pop songwriters.

I am, too. A dismal lot.

But as I say, it's an impossible question. Just thought of John Sebastian, Laura Nyro, Gil Scott Heron, Carol King, Willie Nelson, Ani DeFranco, Chris Stapleton, Willie Dixon, Richard Thompson, Shane MacGowan, and Cheryl Wheeler.

I rest my case: It can't be done!

On youtube "WOKE UP DREAMING " Joe Bonnamassa and a Japanese Chelloist---

----don't know who wrote it--KILLER, KILLER----HOTEL CALIFORNIA, HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN.................

many many...........



Mackie

Zappa....damn.....and mackie with eric....revised list growing.

Mentioning the ladies, we have to consider Laura Nyro. Another very underrated songwriter is Waylon's widow, Jessi Colter. She wrote some fantastic songs including her smash it "I'm Not Lisa". On my list I also have Mary Chapin Carpenter, who has returned to her folksy roots after a decade or so as a country crossover hitmaker.

To round out my personal top ten list that I began earlier, I guess I'd pick Hank Williams and Mickey Newbury. Hank was the exception in his day as at that time he was one of the few singer-songwriters around. That trend didn't really take off until Dylan came along although some of the early rock 'n rollers including Buddy Holly and Roy Orbison also wrote much of their own material. I shall now share a song by one whom I believe is very underrated. You should check out more of this guy's material.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF9MLWSWa44

R & B: Smokey Robinson: Holland, Dozier and Holland. Metal: Haven't followed that genre too closely but Kurt Cobain would probably qualify. Classical for the most part was music but very seldom any lyrics which is probably why the likes of Bach, Beethoven and Mozart wouldn't fit in here. I mentioned many folk oriented songwriters including what I consider the Big Three: Dylan, Lightfoot, Kristofferson. Oh yes I guess we need to mention John Denver also.
Where 1950s and 60s country is concerned, no one yet has mentioned Buck Owens and Roger Miller.

I recall one personal asking about the earlier days of pop music. There were very few so-called celebrity songwriters during that time, Irving Berlin probably being the exception. The singers and songwriters were seldom one and the same at that time.

Beechnut, there are alot of great metal writers, most of us here just dont care or listen to it

I remember kids in high school who were into Slayer and MegaDeath, Ozzie, Metallica, they could recite every word. They have their own style but they are very good at what they do.

How bout Jim Croce or Cat Stevens.

Bob Seeger, Bryan Adams, Sting, Lou Reed, David Bowie... i mean i could probably make a top 100 list easily. and then a top 1000

This really is a "personal" list of those who came to mind for me......and as shown, we all have differing lists.

Art really is subjective


Seeing the names suggested is no surprise, I would have listed a lot I did not think of and you all did.....but in the moment....there it was.

The list changes from day to day

Revised as of this thread:

1: macca
2: diamond
3:partridge
4: finn
5: colvin
6: lightfoot
7: lennon
8: harrison
9: hall
10: carothers


Revised soon.

I finally saw someone post Willie Nelson. Then there was Don Williams. How about Hoagy Carmichael?
Yeah, the Eagles did some great songs and don't forget the man who almost single handedly created Bossa Nova, with "The girl from Ipanima"... Antonio Carlos Jobim. Can't remember who wrote "One Note Samba" but it was a pretty catchy tune. Great list, so far.

Day by day.....it changes

My grandfather knew hoagy, and others.(side note)

Point taken, LOL!

And I did!

And how can anyone include Nyro without including Nina Simone?

No, indeed! The fifties weren't within the last fifty years.

[i][/i]
No. You can't compare him with anyone. He's incomparable. If there had ever been any doubt, Muswell Hillbillies placed him in squarely the pantheon of greats.

Thanks for the reminder. I'm adding him to my inventory of reasons why the question can't be answered!

Van Morrison deserves mention..

Van the man for sure, shoulda been mentioned a long time ago

Yup! So you did!

Johnny Mercer, and Roger Miller!!!

And in an otherwise unfair world, I just read that the Kinks are back together at last.

Welcome back, Muswell hillbillies! It's been way to long.

Two female songwriters, one pop, one country who shared in common the fact that while each had a vast amount of success placing their songs with other artists neither woman had great commercial success as an artist in her own right despite both releasing many great albums. Can you guess their names?

Aw, Humm Beech,
Don't have two but one may have been Cindy Walker.

I do remember the namen Cindy Walker who was a great country songwriter but don't recall her having also been a performer. So here are the two ladies who came to mind: Pop, Laura Nyro;
Country, Matraca Berg.

Another very underrated female songwriter is Waylon's widow, Jessi Colter.

Choice between Jim Morrison and Kurt Cobain. I know that there are those that may consider that blasphemous.

Maybe I should settle on John Lennon.

I also consider Christine McVie the true architecht of.Fleetwood Mac's sound.

As with all lists, it changes, and reading where this has gone.......new list:

1: macca
2: lennon
3: harrison

I will not apologize.

4: costello
5: bacharach
6: webb
7: diamond
8: simon
9: sumner
10: dylan

Dylan

Lennon/McCartney

Jagger/Richards

Paul Simon

Pete Townsend

Bruce Springsteen

Neil Young

Tom Waits

Cant see Slim Whitman being an influence to The Beatles he was never a writer

Buddy Holly-- Bob Dylan --Orbison -Dell -Shannon- Chuck Berry- Everly Brothers Definitely


But none of them were out and out Country Acts, more Country Rock


Possibly the attitude and writing of Hank Williams but he never toured the U K

They were also influenced by Tamla Mo Town as were many of us

Home Grown Acts to the U K like Lonnie Donegan were certainly an influence

to John and Paul


As far as Best Song Writers Jim Web Kris Kristofferson - Roger Miller- Bob Dylan

Roy Orbison - Leonard Cohen - Bacharach and David - Lennon and McCartney

George Harrison - Tom Petty ----- Ladies would be Mary Chapin Carpenter- Dianne Warren

Plus Joni Mitchel

Humm,
A lot of Country Artists toured the United Kingdom and country music was a big influence over there. Slim Whitman was a big influence, not because he was a writer, but a performer. For many years Slim Whitman had the song that was the number song that remained at the top of the Charts the longest in England, ROSE MARIE. Jim Reeves was also a big favorite.

George Michael

I always thought that he was a guy with a great voice who hung around bathrooms too much. After he died, I saw a documentary on his life. The doc talked about all of the songs that he wrote. Other than "Careless Whisper" (a co-write) most of the songs were focused on the beat and a pleasing melody, but the list was long and the songwriting was phenomenal. Notwithstanding his bad habits, I think that he is as good a songwriter as most anyone who ever lived.

my 2 cents

Maybe for his niche market. Catchy Pop, infectious rhythms. I read that he slept with tons of women too, and he said he liked them, but emotionally he was gay.

To each his own, very talented though

No David Bowie?

David Bowie was one of my first, along with Lou Reed with my formative genre. But it seems hard to narrow down outside of a couple of icons. The list is too vast.

Bowie, I have a lot of love and respect for his work.........but said work never got very deep under my skin.

But he was a force, to be sure.

Oh.....and I see waites listed.....yes!

honorable mention

Joe Jackson (look sharp and I'm the man are two of my favorite all time albums

Ah yes, Joe Jackson. I saw him in a tiny night club in Edinburgh doing his Jumpin' Jive. A fantastic night., although I remember it was hot as Hades with all the people packed into the small venue.

Lot of good names listed. One conspicious in its absence is Townes van Zandt when I consider this audience.

Outside the box? Just had a week with Dar Williams hosting a songwriter retreat in Garrison NY, on the Hudson across from West Point.

She's definitely a top ten with me....

Merle, Johnny Cash, Melencamp, were not mentioned

We need to start a new list for modern songwriters

We need a Laws of Lists

Here's the first Law of Lists

No list is perfect or ever complete

Among the ladies, have to include Lucinda Williams as well.

I liked some you guys didn't mention (or mention enough):

-Hornsby/Hornsby who wrote songs with social consciousness in an era that lacked many competitors and piano playing/arranging that gets aped by countless players ever since

-Tyler and his various bandmates who inspired generations of US Rock bands that came after and still do

-Reznor who helped create and perfect and then singlehandedly mainstreamed an entire genre that perists today among kids 30+ years later

-and though I don't expect anyone to click the link as we have nary a rap fan in this crowd currently, this page sums up their greatest and most influential writers and anyone who thinks Rap writers and music will not have a permanent effect on all popular music going forward, they are living with blinders on. It's never going away and it's influence has crossed over into all genres. The link: https://www.vibe.com/2017/03/10-rappers-jay-z-songwriters-hall-of-fame-list/ . Though I am not a fan of his, Jay Z is already in the Songwriters Hall of Fame.

-Carol King who along with Laura Nyro may be the two most influential female writers in history.

PS: I do love me some Mary Chapin Carpenter (my fave of hers is the brilliant "Last word..." for it's simple, biting and humorous take on "THOSE" relationships we've all had one time or another. She was the queen of a wink and a nod to real life love, loss and living.

George Michael? Careless Whisper? Wake me Up? on and on........."niche market"??

https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/pop/7633307/greatest-george-michael-songs-tribute-rip

Fd...Do you write these comments before you have your first cup of morning coffee?

Martin I could say the same thing to you for mentioning George Michael in a conversation about the greatest songwriters of past 50 years.

What I meant was, his audience is women and gay men. I'd call that a niche, but he did get mega radio play.

its very niche anyway, it's highly pop, based in hooks and selling records, nothing wrong with that, but to me greatness in songwriting goes a bit beyond that. To each his own.

how many straight men would you expect to find at a George Michael concert? I think I'd find a lot more at an Elton John concert cause he has wider appeal and reaches a more rounded audience

Dang it, carol king.....slipped my mind.

Fd...I don't understand.

I am not an advocate for George Michael, but when I saw the documentary after his death, I was stunned at how many big (and good) songs he had written for himself and others. Gotta give credit where it's due. "Careless Whisper" is still one of my favorite songs.

At the peak of his career, Wham and then Michael were arguably the biggest stars in music. It's inarguable that he was filling giant arenas all over the world. If he's to be considered a niche artist, then I suppose Taylor Swift is a niche artist whose appeal is limited to now adult, teen girls.

The truth is, all music is niche music. not all music appeals to all people, and wham and George Michael clearly targeted their subsection of the population. It's smart, and makes sense. Good business.

he/they were on the radio, thats how songs become famous and hits. It doesn't mean that somebody listening to careless whisper in their office as they do some paperwork, is in a rush to go out and see them

I know what you mean, he/they had immense success, but they still targeted certain groups of people.

Somebidy like Billy Joel on the other hand didn't target anybody, he appealed old/young, rich, poor, straight, gay, women, men.

That's the difference for me.

I gave him his due, he was very good, legendary at what he did

In some abstract sense, that's true I suppose.
But at a level of reality, it's incorrect to say that artists with massive appeal such as Michael, Swift, Elton John, the Beatles, Rolling Stones produce "niche" music. Chamber music is niche music. Much of jazz is niche. Someone who can fill Wembley stadium is not niche.

Fd...it seems that you are trying to stretch a point that flies in the face of the obvious.

It's not abstract at all..

And who put George Michael in with Elton, Beatles, Rolling Stones?

You did. I said he did not have that kind of massive appeal, and he doesn't

If I'm stretchinf a point, it's because you are trying to prove George Michael is one of the top songwriters of the past 50 years.

He may belong in top performers list

That's that then.

Footnote: Elton John said that Michael was the most talented person alive back in his heyday.

He was extremely talented, you didn't see me dispute that.

Alive though? I'm pretty sure Michael Jackson and Prince were alive when he made that comment. Might be a bit of a homer pick being they were both English, friends, and had same interests.

I once saw somebody on one of these forums tell somebody that their song was the best song they had ever heard.... To which i say...

Tee hee

Fd...
This debate/discussion is not making sense to me or arriving anywhere enlightening. How 'bout...you win.

which is your backwards way of winning. Your just upset that i didnt love your selection of George Michael, if others do that's fine.

no...how bout YOU win.

Not really true Fd. I don't mind debating songs etc. I like it as long as I am learning something. If nothing else, I'm learning something about why someone believes something very different from me.

In this case, I don't see any of that. Just argument for the sake of argument. Take the last word, I'm done.

Martin

NO, you take the last word