Every week (and sometimes daily) I will get a similar email as this one with a similar exchange and often similar results. It's very frustrating for me, but even more for those who are ripped off but insist on learning the hard way. Even sadder is the number that truly never learn and continue forward, wasting money and desperately trying to buy a dream without truly ever learning how things work so they can protect themselves from being ripped off. Here's the exchange. I have covered the name of the person because I have no interest in embarrassing them. And this exchange is so typical:
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First Email I got:

Help!

I have approx 14 songs (lyrics only) in various categories from Country, Pop, Ballads, etc. I presently have a group in Nashville doing demos (which I am paying for) for 2 Country songs. When they pitch the songs when completed it is 50/50 for royalties and I am satisfied with this. They did a free critique and felt these 2 Country songs were in their words “outstanding” BUT where can I send my other type songs for their free evaluation. Nashville is looking more for country.

1. Is there a reputable group somewhere that does free evaluation for songs that are non-country.

2. Is there any way to market only lyrics that is safe, free (or inexpensive) that will be seen by industry people/artists that is worthwhile. I see that songscope does this but they admit they don’t typically get requests for just lyrics but they do occasionally.

3. If you do suggest the best way to post or place to send my lyrics and someone is interested enough that they will pay to have a demo made themselves, (does that even occur), what is a reasonable percentage to ask for should there be royalties (15%, 25% or more???) What is customary and reasonable.

I believe my lyrics are strong and from everything I have read from different websites are commercially desirable although missing the melody itself which I realize makes the song.

Thank you for any help.

(NAME WITHHELD)
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My Response:

NAME WITHHELD,

There's really no reason for a business to do "free" reviews since there's nothing in it for them so why would they? There are ways to get free or inexpensive and sincere feedback. The most obvious is to post on our JPF Lyric boards for feedback. But as a lyric only thing there aren't a lot of other places to get feedback. (If they have music, there are a few other options, but even those are limited). In general, there's very little demand for Lyrics in any genre. The lyricist only crowd outnumbers the music only or those open to using someone else lyrics by at least 10 to 1 or more. You're in a fairly unwanted majority I am afraid to say. But.. (and it's a big but) if you are REALLY good, there are options.

I have a question about the first part of your note. Are you PAYING someone to put music to your words AND then giving them half the publishing? That's not how it works. If you are paying for services, they shouldn't ALSO get publishing and co-writer credit. That's what scam artists do all the time. Your statements raise a lot of red flags. Co-writers should equally share in all expenses for a song. Period.

Good luck and good job on checking into things before spending money. The water is FULL of nasty sharks who specialize in ripping people off while making them think they are getting a great deal or a legit opportunity.

Brian

Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
www.jpfolks.com
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Her Next Response:

Hi Brian,

Boy you got back to me fast, thank you so much.

Actually this organization in Nashville did do a free evaluation. Your only supposed to send them 3 songs at a time and their website states that they only accept worthy submissions when it comes time to start talking contracts. I get to pick the price package I want for a demo ranging from 175 to 500. First of all I don’t see how they make money since there is the cost of overhead in a professional recording studio and paying musicians to play as well as vocalists to sing. Then they take the words and have to put the melody and music to the words which I’m guessing takes a lot longer than it did for me to write the song. (Fortunately for me the writing comes quickly and naturally). This can take up to 8-10 weeks for them to finish their demo. So, obviously they want to make the song as good as possible since they have a vested interest and they really only make out monetarily if the song is successful. And it doesn’t stop there. They pitch the song to people in industry, they have opening to doors I don’t. Their studio is on Music Row while I live here in Pennsylvania. So, I do put out $ for the demo but they are putting all the time to put music to the song and then pitch it. Also, as I understand it people in the music industry don’t want lyrics or just music, they want a complete professional demo (the quality of which is what you would hear on the radio) before they’ll consider it. (I’ve read this on many websites). While I do believe there are sharks in the water, I don’t believe this organization I am dealing with falls under that category. I would guess they just about break-even (if that) by the time their done the demo so they really don’t make big money unless the song is accepted by an artist or his/her agent/label, etc. If the song does well I don’t see what’s wrong with 50/50 royalites since I only wrote the song and they put the time and effort into putting a proper melody which you and I know is the critical part plus do the legwork.

Also Brian, while I am tempted to post my songs on your website, I stop and think well even if people say hey it’s great, this could be a hit, blah-blah, that doesn’t get me in front of industry people and I still, at some point, need a demo to present. Do you see what I’m saying? Ideally I would like it if someone said hey I like your lyrics so much and I believe this could be a great song, I’ll even pay for the demo and we’ll see where this goes. I’m not sure that kind of thing ever happens.

Thoughts?

(NAME WITHHELD)
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My Response to Her:

(NAME WITHHELD),

I hate to rain on your parade here, but they ARE making a profit. They are making either 175 dollars per song or 500 per song. That's profit. It's the same as if you paid a painter to paint your house at 175 dollars or 500 dollars. They make that much doing the job. The co-writing ownership is simply additional profit if something actually happened to the song. This is truly the oldest scam in the book. It's not that it's unreasonable to charge 175 to 500 dollars to do a demo.. it's that you think you are buying so much more when you aren't. Any demo mill on the planet can do a demo for those price ranges. And at those prices, they are very profitable. Period. Please separate the two things.

Let me state it again: What you have described above is the classic example of a Nashville scam. Period. The fact that you are trying hard to defend them is proof that they are very good at what they do. If you are going to work on a song with someone and they get half the publishing, they should share in half the expense. PERIOD. Let me say it again, if someone is getting half the songwriting credit, they pay half the cost. End of story. Anything else is a scam. All this is is someone providing a demo service with a sales technique that makes you think you're getting something more. You're not. I've been doing this a long time and I've come across the exact same old scam perhaps a thousand times or more before.

If you want a demo of your song, call some legit studios, call some legit organizations and find someone who will do your demo for you. OR, better yet, spend enough time to meet a collaborator who does music and actually co-write with them. You can't "buy" success for the kind of money you can afford.

Based on your vehement defense of this obvious scam I fear my plea will fall on deaf ears. If it does, and you go forward and you EVER make a single deal that even pays you back for the money you invested in the demo (let alone makes you profits or makes you famous) I encourage and welcome you to come back and rub it in my face. On the other hand, if you simply get a mediocre demo and nothing more comes of it, I hope you'll make the effort to warn others not to waste their money like I am trying to do for you hear. These folks have made you feel like something special. That's their sales tactic. Please don't fall for it. I don't even need to know who these folks are. Ask yourself what motivation I could have in saying this if it's not true? I obviously have no ax to grind since I don't know who it is and I obviously am not trying to sell you something as I run a free organization. Please think it over.

Good luck,

Brian
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So my question is, what would all of you folks tell people like this about this old scam to make them understand it's not the great deal they think it is? I am not suggesting those prices aren't fine for demos, or that the quality wouldn't be acceptable (frankly, I am assuming the quality would be okay which doesn't change the scam at all). It's when these folks use these misleading promises (i.e. we'll shop it to industry.. we'll get it to radio.. we'll get it to publishers.. blah blah blah) AND they take 50% of the writing credit that the major red flags come up. And it's not even that by itself, but the fact that they use their bogus "interest" in the lyrics to get someone excited enough to pay them for demo services they don't need in the first place. It's all part of the ruse and sadly it's very effective.

So how do we protect people from this? Or should we simply let them all learn the hard way?

I'm going to go up on my roof and jump off. It's only two stories, it's been raining so there's a good chance I wont break my neck.

Don't try and come over and stop me. How dare you get between me and the ground?

It looks so inviting.

I belong to several songwriting boards and I always give the advice you've given here, and I always include a link to a couple of JPF threads where folks have discussed scamming tactics. I encourage lyric writers to post their lyrics for review and to ask for collaborators to help with music. I suggest they go to open mikes and other live events in their area and meet local musicians. I also encourage them to take guitar lessons or chord-based jazz piano lessons & learn to read notation so they can at least create a melody & chord progression. In my voice studio I have several aspiring singers who are also songwriters. A friend of mine can't write down music, but he can sing his melody into a tape recorder and give it to a musican who'll work out the chords & help him record a simple demo. If a lyricist is serious about being in the biz, then either hooking up with good musicians and/or raising their own skill levels is essential, IMO.

Thank goodness for JPF - I actually found this site when I researching an offer I'd been made... I quickly got educated!!

cheers
Hummin'bird

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Vikki Flawith, Canadian Singer/Songwriter & Voice Teacher

This bird sings at:
http://www.soundclick.com/vikkiflawith
www.vikkiflawith.com

Vikki on MySpace

Hummingbird's Wise Bird's Blog

If you want a demo of your song, call some legit studios, call some legit organizations and find someone who will do your demo for you. OR, better yet, spend enough time to meet a collaborator who does music and actually co-write with them. You can't "buy" success for the kind of money you can afford. ...says it all!

Just copy and paste that into a template and keep using it. I would add a few clues or links as to where to find a legitimate studios. I know there's always a few of them posting around JPF.

Also, finding a trustworty co-writer is much more likely around music communities like JPF. I've already done a number of fun (and great) co-writes with various JPF members!

My take is that when folks can almost "taste" their dreams, they won't be as objective about their business decisions. Sometimes it's a 'run away' ego thing, but most of the time folks just get inspired and are thinking (and dreaming) big. I don't know if there's much anyone can do to stop that, even if it's headed for disaster!

Michael

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The OUTLOOK may often appear bleak, but the UPLOOK is always bright!
Michael Borges On Violin
Michael Borges
Praiseworthy Productions

A while back, I did some research and thought on the idea of offering to add music to lyrics for a fee. After spending time and asking for input, both here and elsewhere, I came to the conclusion that there was no way to offer such a service without, at the very least, giving false hope.

Beyond that, I've stopped offering demos to individual songwriters. I now do some demo work for publishing companies here in Nashville, but have completely stopped offering demos to the general public. Several things brought me to this. One of the main things was that even though I offered the lowest price I could afford, I couldn't compete with the scam artists who offered a much higher price...for the same musicians I was hiring! In one case, after meeting with a prospective client for lunch more than once, he finally went with another company. The other company told him that they would use musicians who appeared on all the "major songwriter" demos, as opposed to what I could offer. They used all of my team, except for me (I guess it was the other bass player who made the difference?) But, the big reason? The other company made it seem as though a cd with their service advertised on the label would have a better chance getting a cut.

I could have started competing for demos by offering more than good quality recordings, by hinting that my demos had a better chance of getting a cut, by offering to publish and pitch along with recording. Instead, I stopped offering demos.

How do you tell people something they don't want to hear? Politicians don't listen to advice they don't want to hear, how can we expect different from starry-eyed musicians and songwriters? I guess we keep doing just this. Using the forum Brian has provided to educate people.

No matter the outcome, regardless of the feelings of futility, it is the attempt to do such that makes me proud of being a small part of JPF.

All the Best,
Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

A similar discussion came up locally with
a few friends. My friends sent in their lyrics to a company who sent back a mediocre melody not nearly as good as what my friends could have written ..themselves. They got caught up in the glamour of the Shark's wording. I tried to explain that's NOT how it works. I don't think my explanation sunk in at all.

The use of the word scam here...hhmmm.. well, it's only a few hundred dollars involved...not that a few hundred is NO money---BUT--in today's world it really isn't alot. I think you went ABOVE and BEYOND your call of duty here Brian--but this is a VERY SMALL ripoff to be called a scam, as small as it gets. Could even be WORTH IT to the person---and they DO even get an actual song they can hear--the can play it for their friends and say they wrote the lyrics for it. I know, I know, the promises sucked them in--but---a CHEAP lesson in life, actually--don't jump Wendell, this is certainly not life altering. Brian if I were you, I wouldn't sweat this at all---I'd have stopped after your first response--their mind was already made up

I always answer questions as if my sister asked them.

If it was your sister, would you like it if she were scammed? Not I.

Of course, if you would, then I've got a makeup sales program to ask your sister about, what's her email?

Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

It's like a gateway drug. And if the sucker.. er.. victim... er.. client is smart enough to catch on quickly and only gets burned for a few hundred bucks, they simply claim they got their money's worth for demos (which they still now half own for eternity) based on the flat rate.. and they've been able to keep their real business.. which is just another "demo house" going to be able to scam the next person.

Herbie.. I guess you have a moral relativism that if someone is only punched in the shoulder that's okay if they aren't beaten and murdered by a stranger.. or if a woman is groped it's okay as long as she wasn't raped. Of course it's all about opportunity for these people. If they can only get away with the lower level crime..er.. business service.. they will.. but if the grope and get away with it.. they're going to go for it all the way... it's sad and it's sleazy and it's evil and frankly, I will never simply accept it and think "we'll.. that's okay.. at least they didn't rape and murder her this time."

If this victim was your Grandmother or Mother or Sister or Daughter, would you be happy to let her get scammed? I sure hope not. To me, all these folks are SOMEONE'S relative.. I do my best to protect them. If I don't care or don't bother, I need to start doing something else with my life, because the pay sure doesn't make it worthwhile.

As for being extreme.. that's the only way apparently to get the point across. To me, being ripped off by scam artists is always bad, especially when people exist that can warn them off. Sure, she may very well pay the money and in many cases, when nothing at all happens commercially for her, she still won't know any better. But I am not sure what else to say to her and I get so sick of victim after victim cycling through these sleazebags.

Just like you can't get a "little" pregnant, I feel there's no such thing as a "little" scammed. It all sucks and it should all be stopped with whatever resources we have to do it.

Fortunately I know we HAVE saved a lot of people. Whether this person is one of them, time will only tell.

Yeah, they won't know the difference, just hurry up and cut that song. No one will ever hear it. You can't polish mud.

Go ahead and charge someone a second mortgage to break their heart. I hope you con-artists can sleep. I wonder if you'd read this and think I'm a rube and a patsy or some kind of goody two shoes? Well I think you're not artists. You're not con-artists, you're non-artists. I think it's a flaw that makes people want to take unfair advantage. A lack of character. Perhaps a lack of conscience. I pray for your recovery. I pray for your redemption.

May i also add to those wishing to be a part of the music biz: pack your bags, move to Nashville, get a day job to pay your bills, and spend as much time as you can meeting people and working on your craft. Nashville is very much a rank n file town. Get in line, pay your dues, make nice with the locals, and wait your turn. God knows the rest of us have to!

When you deal with a less than honest service in Nashville, all the legitimate people know who it is. There are plenty of demo services that will demo a song in and out of Music city. Some, if they work up a melody and complete writing a song will want a co-writing credit. Others don't care. But the scam is still there luring people in.

Another thing, song sharks place ads in many non musical publications.

Brian, you might want to reference this video to possible victims. Also, here's a link from the better business bureau that should also be useful in warning people:
http://www.labbb.org/BBBWeb/Forms/General/GeneralStaticPage.aspx?Page=Topic176&sm=

wishing you all the best,

I am an extremely skeptical person so I probably wouldn't fall for most scams like this but some of these scammers can be very good and if I got desparate enough, I might just dive right in against my better judgment.

I would encourage--somehow--"newbies" to read up a lot before they take the plunge into Recordingland, and to check out the prices and services of people they trust before doing so. I did--and there's a lot of good advice available here, from a lot of very competent people.

Other thing I'd remind 'em--recognizing they may well not listen--is there's a word for people who swim with sharks. It's "bait." In fact, there are only two categories of critters that swim with sharks. One is sharks, and the other is bait. And that is how life works, and you're not going to change it. Like the old proverb says, some people's purpose in life is to serve as an example for others.

Joe
www.soundclick.com/bands/7/joewrabek_music.htm

Viscious frickin' cycle....However, JPF has a membership of how many thousands now??? That's a lot of fish food that has been saved from the Shark waters already.

Midnite

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Austin Whitney:
[B]I don't really want an entire section of our site dedicated to scam artists....Google seems to love our message boards and most of the scam posts here show up on searches for those companies.