In my opinion, there's a fanbase of 5,000 out there for any decent performer. Qualities that make a performer uncommercial often make them unique and interesting. Everyone has a story to tell. Somewhere there will be people who can relate.

We need tools to reach them. Net "radio" is probably the most exciting thing happening now. The station I listen to often turns me on to three or four new songs that I like every hour.

Public education is an issue. The more people who realise that their all-time favorite artist could be a person living down the street the better. It would help if we were to demystify the process of making music a bit and take the "star" out of star-quality.

The numbers look encouraging- 5,000 fans could easily support an artist full-time, at ten to twenty dollars a year. A long-term relationship can develop- listeners and performers can grow up together. This is a good future, worth working toward!

I didn't read the article myself (in fact, I can't find it at all, is it online yet?), but nonetheless it's a great way to frame the challenge, to see how it's a totally attainable goal. Later, I came up with this rough exercise:

Got a day job? Take your salary and divide it by 20. That's the number of fans you'll need, each of them paying you $20/year, to make your current salary. It might be a lot less than 5000. That $20 can come from CD sales, t-shirt and other merch sales, live performances, tips and donations.

I did this calculation myself and the number was so low my brain nearly exploded -- and I have a pretty decent day job.

------------------
Scott Andrew
Lo-fi acoustic pop superhero!
http://www.scottandrew.com/music

I do plan to follow up more on the 5000 fan theory. I welcome any input folks have to add to the idea. There will always be a major lable type system that will create and promote "superstars" on some level and in some way, but I think we have more tools than ever to make an honest living and I want to present that concept to artists at least with equal energy as the tried and true "here's how to try and get a 'deal'" stories people always want.

Many people think I'm a dreamer and that may be true but I don't just dream for dream's sake. I work as hard as anyone on the planet. Long hour days are normal. Doing something you love, that's the key.

The article was in the last newsletter that went out on December 31st. Aren't you getting the newsletters?

The internet is definitely a key tool, but my opinion is that you just can't be passive with it. Unless you're already got the fans, slapping up a website won't do much for you unless you keep it updated with something personal and real. You've got to give visitors a reason to come back, to be engaged in what you're doing, to become invested in your struggle. Those are the people who become your willing supporters.

You've got to do more than just update your calendar and send it to your email list. You've got to remind them that you're a person with needs and wants, and -- probably most importantly -- that you acknowlege THEIR needs and wants. The humanizing factor goes both ways. Anything you can do to tear down that fourth wall and invite your audience closer to your life will benefit both parties.

Part of the reason I want to do the documentary is so I can find folks who will fit into this new approach and nurture them, learn from them and pass that knowledge on to everyone else (which is really just an approach used by artists before the hyper commercial corporate takeover of music). I am not against fame or even the rock star phenomena. It's a fun and cool thing. But no matter how well we train and prepare artists and no matter how talented they are, there will always only be room for a couple dozen hyper successful artists. Lets work on success for everyone else.

Our Chapter system (if we can jump start it) can be a huge piece of this positive approach.

Its still a "do-able" number, just don't want to see any more folks out there not taking care of basics in the process.

------------------
Marty my new home

The numbers sure look good. It's a goal that seems much more reasonable than stardom. It's a lot more concrete, and your progress can be measured.

The 5,000 fan number is sort of arbitrary- my personal goal is about 3,500. 5,000 is a nice round number and it puts things in perspective. Not 5 million or 50,000 fans.

It's still a big number when it comes to people. For fun, total up all the people you know. Set your own limits as to how well you know them for it to count. I came up with around 300 people that I feel know me well enough to consider supporting me as an artist. I'd need about 16 times that many fans to hit 5,000.

Look at it another way. Say you set a goal of getting 5,000 fans in 5 years. That works out to around 20 new fans a week. I know some performers who could probably do this- they're very socially motivated and they play several gigs a week.

Even so, it's a lot of work without some leverage. Net radio, instant messaging and a web presence can help, but we need more to attract potential fans to us.

My problem is I'm running out of time. I'm no spring chicken. The way I look at it is if I could pull it off, maybe in ten years, I'd have enough to kick back on. I mean, service those fans with new material without having to bust it so hard to gain new ones.

You're going to have to get fans to help you much more than mainstream artists would. You're going to have to ask people to refer other fans to you. Often. I think you're going to have to remind them (without ticking them off) that you need help to spread the word. Because you are independent and can't do it without them! Come up with some goodies to help people who help you.

I suggest that if someone isn't socially motivated and isn't planning on doing several performances a week that they should seriously rethink their desire to be a full time music artist. I am not addressing songwriters here, who probably have a very different set of issues facing them in the coming years, but people who consider themselves music artists. If you aren't a live performer, you'll likely have to take a different arc. The 5000 fan theory is directed towards performing artists who want to make music for a living. There aren't many jobs out there that you can be socially distant and work less than a couple days a week.

20 new fans a week for 5 years actually sounds like a pretty reasonable goal for most artists even on the very smallest scale. The key of course isn't just meeting or selling them a CD (which would only be 1000 CD's a year and 20K isn't a real living for most people), but learning as you go to nurture those folks to make sure that every single year they are spending 20 bucks or more to support your work. There's no question there is a LOT of work involved. A lot of time. A lot of creativity. But it's important for artists not to view this concept as a free ride or "look how easy it can be" but rather a productive way to break down what you really need to do make a living and get paid for working hard every day at something you truly enjoy.

The truth is that if you can learn to make 20 true fans a week for 5 consecutive years, that you'll actually have FAR MORE than 5000 fans at the end of that time. The habits you create and the techniques that you hone will translate to far more.

I liken this concept to the different between going on a fad diet and learning how to eat and live healthy. There are plenty of equivelants to a fad diet in the world of music success. People who want to cash in on helping you reach your dream goal (only it's music success instead of easy weight loss). What I am preaching is to learn how to be musically healthy. So that your habits permanently change from the "get rich quick, become famous easy" dogma that most of the industry pushes on people to get them to spend money pursuing their dreams, to a living healthy every day mantra.

What I like most about my idea is that all your effort is spent doing what you love in exactly the way you want to do it, instead of pursuing some half baked plan to superstardom and begging for a piece of the pie from a zillion gatekeepers who's job it is to make sure you never get it. As you learn to make and nurture a small passionate fan base, you'll find you're actually DOING exactly what it was you always WANTED to do in the first place. Making music YOUR way, connecting with fans who want what YOU do and never having to fell like a sell out, but at the same time being able to pay the rent, buy your food and maybe even some day having things like health care and retirement which people in every other real world job get to have.

It's amazing how exciting that type of idea sounds, even though nearly every other worked in the world already has these options as a regular part of their life and career. Why has it taken our community so long to come to this obvious realization? The problem has always been that pursuit of "fame." Our egos are to blame. Someone going to work for an engineering firm or as an accountant or running a diner probably rarely worries about becoming world famous. They want to do great work and get fair pay and all those things are directly under their control. But fame requires a lot of gatekeepers to "approve and allow" you to succeed. And all of them have their OWN agenda that has little to nothing to do with your own.

This is a great topic and I am working on a full length article about it. I appreciate the chance to hash out my own ideas and thoughts here.

Us oldsters can make some decent music too! It's good, in a way, because you're forced to look beyond the trend of the week that the industry is focused on.

But when you give that up, you give up an easy way to fans, unless you're doing something like blues which is sort of timeless. If you don't sound like the thing that's currently hot, you have to work harder to be memorable.

And that's OK. The fans I'm looking for are going to be interested in what I'm doing and where I'm coming from. Trendies are only cool until the next cool thing comes along. Music is a lifetime thing.

Yes, a dedicated performer should be able to accomplish this easily- provided that their music is fairly mainstream. If the 5,000 people you need to reach are scattered around the globe it's a lot harder!

You bring up an interesting thing- the difference between performing live and being known only from a recording. I'm totally focused on recording now, and only play out for fun. Playing live does give you an edge. People are more forgiving of a live performance, and a lot of qualities besides musicianship come into play. Just having fun onstage turns listeners into fans- it's a shared experience, and the audience gives as much back as you give to them.

When all you are is a song on a record, that recording has to be exceptional in some way. Still, we've all had the experience of going crazy for a record. It's the way most people pick up on new music, and it's the way I think the internet can be the most help. Recordings are like little salesmen for you, and they can work while you're sleeping. They even work in foreign languages!

So the arc of a career can be different, but I totally agree that the time spent should be in making connections with fans, not in playing music industry games.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marty Helly:
One accounting nit - take you salary and double it first - then divide. Unless you plan on going without health insurance, disability, sick days, vacation time, a retirement plan

---

And they're often working at something they loathe.

Washington state has a higher minimum wage requirement than the Feds. Yet if you are working at a minimum wage job it will only take you 765 "true fans" to get the same gross income as your day job is giving you now.

Ok, actually 764 true fans and one that'll only give you 10 bucks a year. Nevertheless...

As DukeWill said, it's doable. It's within reach without thinking you're going for some "pie in the sky" fantasy.

5000 fans gives you a gross of $100,000.00. Hoohah! But, better than that, you can end up with less than that and still be earning your living at music. Each year that you add a few you're doing better, so that even if you never achieve the "5000 grail" you can be earning your daily bread by your music.

That excites me.

In fact, Brian, that article was easily the most exciting thing I'd read on the subject in a long time too. It gave me the first hope I've had in longer than I even want to talk about.

Thank you! If I "get" nothing else from JPF, I'll be happy I found y'all just for that.

OK. I'll stop raving now.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian Austin Whitney:
Why has it taken our community so long to come to this obvious realization? The problem has always been that pursuit of "fame."

---

I would say it goes beyond just a personal desire for fame. We are practically taught everyday that the only success worth having is the Big Time. We see this on TV (hello, American Idol), read it in magazines, and even hear it from our well-intentioned friends and families who believe the same hype: stardom = success, and anything less than stardom means you're wasting your time (and why don't you get a real job?).

When I look at my heroes, the ones that inspire me to keep at it, I don't see a lot of stars. But I do see a LOT of success. Why doesn't that count in the eyes of some people?

Heck, stardom is a lot easier to achieve -- I could go put on a Spiderman costume and start climbing the Space Needle. I'd be on TV within hours!

Strap a guitar on your back and play a few tunes once you get to the top before they get the handcuffs on and you might have just the gimmick for 15 minutes of fame.

A guy on Ebay sold advertising on his forhead for 1 month and not only got 30K dollars for it, but ALSO got interviewed on over a dozen nationally broadcast TV shows and I am sure countless follow ups. He was using the gimmick to pay for college. A brilliant idea. But he also got a blip of fame for it. But once that fame is gone and hte 30K is spent on college, he'll have to make a real living doing something. And that is so comparable to music industry fame. Our friends in Vertical Horizon had the #1 song in the entire world a few years ago with "Everything She Wants." Now, they have no label deal, the label didn't even promote their last album and other than the songwriter, the other guys have little to nothing financially to show for that world attention. And that is the true norm. Getting 500K as a "deal" is like minimum wage after you pay all the bills and there's no retirement unless you were the songwriter of the hit (and that may or may not be much depending on how many co-writers and publishers are involved).

Howlin: I am glad you were motivated. I got more positive feedback from that newsletter than anything else I have written in a several years. It struck a chord with a LOT of people. Now we have to work on a format to help folks achieve the 5000 fan theory on their own.

Jeff,

I think the idea applies to you too even as a non performer. You can still interact via email, the web, a weblog, posted videos of you creating the music in the studio (which is at least AS interesting to a fan as seeing you perform live, something I have learned on the road the last few years is that fans are more interested in YOU than they are in your music. Many fans would prefer to see you recording your song in the studio than even seeing you do it live in front of them. But all this stuff should be part of building and nurturing your fans.

You could have your fans post song title ideas and then each month write a song off that title and post it free to your fan base on your site. If you compose via keyboards and computers, you could show your fans different versions of the song by changing sounds on the synths. You could sample your fans voices and include them in a dance song. Etc. etc. etc. You could visit a pocket of fans in their home town and write a song about a particular landmark or event that happened in their town. In other words, even as a non live performer, you can find ways to directly engage your fan base. Even better, you can go beyond that and make your fans friends with EACH OTHER! That way they keep that connection going beyond just your music. You've built a community. Sort of like I have done with JPF, only you don't have to do it on an international scale (but hopefully you will eventually). I can't imagine how many people's lives I have positive touched in ways I don't even think of like people meeting at shows and becoming friends. (And that has happend a LOT!).

Use those ideas to build your own community.

What you've done at JPF has been an inspiration. There are a lot of inspirational people working to promote music and indie musicians, and I really believe we will find ways to make this work.

The 5,000 fans idea is key. As scottandrew says, the perception of sucess in the eyes of the public is twisted. Many people, even musicians who I would think would know better will hear something I've recorded and say "Cool! You should do something with that". Well, I tell them that I have done something with it- I've written it, I've recorded it, and I've plopped it up on the web and shared it. I do my best to promote it, but it's not an attempt to land a deal or anything- as far as I'm concerned, it's done when someone hears it and goes "Cool!".

What happens after that? In my case, I've been asking people to "sponsor" my studio. By sponsorship, I mean exactly what you've been talking about- giving me around $20 a year to just keep doing what I'm doing, in exchange for all the music I can make (of myself and other local musos).

I've been doing this for about 4 years now. Haven't heard of me? Well, spreading the word is, for me, about the hardest part of doing this.

Sponsorship works better than no sponsorship, and better (in my case) than the traditional path. In 1980 a song I wrote was a hit on local radio for a popular club band. From basically two radio stations for about 4 months I saw $50 in royalties as songwriter. You can easily understand that I was hoping the song would go national, and I'm sure you can fill in the blanks as to why it never did. Since then I've continued writing, recording, and promoting my music the traditional way, but that $50 was all I've seen in 25 years. A lucky break that didn't break big.

In the past four years I've received over a thousand bucks in sponsorships, and it keeps growing. It's no big money, but it beats the other thing, and guess what- I'm in control of what I do, and how and when I do it.

I believe that the thing that will open a lot of doors is when the small scale approach gets to be common knowledge. More and more people are discovering indie music. We may reach what they call the tipping point for this soon, but I don't expect that broadcast media will do anything to help- after all, it would be like the dinosaurs encouraging little furry animals to eat their eggs!

quote:

---

Originally posted by scottandrew:

When I look at my heroes, the ones that inspire me to keep at it, I don't see a lot of stars. But I do see a LOT of success. Why doesn't that count in the eyes of some people?

---

Don't let it bother you.

We are probably all guilty of doing the same thing to one degree or another. If you are not deeply involved in anything, you probably only know about the very surface level. For example, I'd guess there are hundreds and maybe thousands of folks who earn a living by driving race cars. But I can name Jeff Gordon, Dale Earnhardt Jr., and that's about it. I don't think that means I am stupid or thoughtless. It merely means I am not that interested in racing.

Woo-hoo! Look at me! I'm a successful, independent musician!!

People will give you some strange looks! One way to explain this to them is to pitch yourself as a craftsperson, like a house painter or a handyman. Or depending on your audience, like the local potter or jewelrymaker. The difference is that you don't start out with something tangible to trade- just your performance and the lift you can give people.

Those of us who have done the circuit know how live entertainment works- performers are the draw, the real money is made from selling something else. Why should we depend on our income indirectly from beer sales (or whatever) when what we do for listeners has an immediate effect?

The idea of livingroom concerts is terrific- the exchange between listeners and performer is right up front- but it is still a job for hire. I want to promote the idea that singers and songwriters and players in the community are a vital part of people's lives and need to be supported in a new way.

Sponsorship is a cheap and easy way for listeners to do this, once the idea of it is understood. A couple can easily drop $40 to $100 on a night out at a bar or club. Pitch $10 or $20 a year to support your ability to make music for a year- sounds like a bargain to me...

I think the 5,000 Fan concept is marvelous and you expressed it well. I shared it in the latest IFS issue, in the next I'll point folks to this thread.

Lately I've been thinking about the idea of
"Be a Star Where You Are"
with the idea that many people think they've got to move to Nashville, New York, LA or Miami to get their artist careers moving.

I beleive a better model is to
"Be a Star Where You Are"
gig a lot, produce CDs and sell them
If you sell enough CD's the indy's and major labels will will view your success as a successful test market and they'll come calling and you'll be in a much better position to negotiate.

In Texas Pat Green built a huge following and sold 200,000 CD's
Kevin Fowler sold over 37,000 CD's as an indy.

Terri Hendrix is doing quite well as an indy artist. She lives across the street from some friends of mine in a nice neighborhood in a house she bought with money she earned from music.

I think it's much better to get it going on your own than to go to Nashville with nothin and hope to get a deal.

Though if you are a songwriter and have a shot at being an artist, you should go to major music towns and cowrite with A list writers.

------------------
Ande Rasmussen
AndeRasmussen@aol.com
http://www.AndeRasmussen.com
http://songramp.com/ande
http://www.soundclick.com/anders
http://www.MySpace.com/anders

http://cdbaby.net/derek/

I think his advice is dead on.
He should know, he's done it and he's observed CD sales on CDBaby.

like
• Ten Tips on how to Promote Your Music
http://cdbaby.net/derek/tips.htm

How-to...
• The great articles on StarPolish.com
• How to get into the college market - in 4 easy steps
• My advice about the college market - the long version
• Touring Tips!
• Good reviews but no CD sales?

Resources...
• How to get a UPC Barcode
• Music Books I highly recommend
• CD Manufacturers I recommend
• Promoters I recommend

Just thoughts
• Marketing Your Music
• Go where the filters are
• Life is like High School
• Keeping in Touch
• The Philosophies of fame

is great stuff!

------------------
Ande Rasmussen
AndeRasmussen@aol.com
http://www.AndeRasmussen.com
http://songramp.com/ande
http://www.soundclick.com/anders
http://www.MySpace.com/anders

Editor Of "Inspirations for Songwriters"
Message archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DIFS/messages
To receive IFS,
SEND an EMPTY email to:
difs-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Later,

That's weird. I haven't seen any other troubles getting emails. Is your ISP possibly banned by AOL in general? They ban ISP's a lot. I haven't banned anyone from anything.

****
----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to air-xa01.mail.aol.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<jpfolkspro@aol.com>
<<< 550 jpfolkspro IS NOT ACCEPTING MAIL FROM THIS SENDER
550 <jpfolkspro@aol.com>... User unknown
Reporting-MTA: dns; rly-xa03.mx.aol.com
Arrival-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 23:04:47 -0500 (EST)

****
I'll try from my yahoo account.

"...20 new fans a week for 5 years actually sounds like a pretty reasonable goal for most artists.."

Agreed.

For many folks (including us), getting shows out of state is the challenge. We're continuing to expand our network of out-of-state artists who we invite to Detroit to play shows and trade shows with, but it's taking quite a bit of time.

Any suggestions on how to speed this up?

Tom

I think the bottom line is exposure. A listener is only going to like a small percentage of what they hear, so the industry solution is to get in front of as many listeners as possible. Maybe it's the best solution, I don't know, but I do know that we've got to be a lot more efficient if we want to get our 5,000 fans.

Through the years the industry has built up the idea of greatness- yet for every artist billed as great, probably 80% of all listeners would say, "no way!" It's not what they like at all, and no amount of promotion is going to convince them.

Still, any artist that a listener can relate to is "great" to them, whatever anyone else says. All I'm sayin' is that we've got to come up with a way for artists that nobody's ever heard of to be "great". It's got to be up to the listener, not the critics or the media- or people's pre-conceived ideas of greatness, which is often about how famous an artist is, and not much else.

The way I see it, we should be promoting the uniqueness of the artist, not how well known they are. This is already the way things work in some genres, where to be well known is to lose cred. But I'm not someone who sits around debating the merits of various unknown bands- when I hear something I like, that's it- they're great. Am I so weird? Or is there a way to find an audience here?

For example, a guy I know plays cowboy folk. He might get 3 fans at a coffeehouse on a good night. But he might get 50 fans by opening for one of the big-drawing alt-country bands in town. And he might get 100 fans playing a set at the local guns-and-sporting-goods expo that happens twice a year.

I'm just thinking aloud here, but that's the type of approach we need to be considering. You have to ask yourself honestly "what kind of music do I play?" and then "who likes this kind of music, and where can I find more people like them?" I think artists sometimes mistake the audience they want for the audience they need. I've done this myself many times, and I see other artists do it all the time, too.

...but we live in an area where there isn't much of a folk scene. He travels to Philly when he can get bookings, but that's only a couple of times a year. He sends his stuff to folk DJs, and gets some airplay, but that's only a couple of spins a year.

Here's the interesting part- I play his stuff for people who aren't "folk music" fans at all, and a lot of them like it (he's funny, and has a good voice). It's my gut feeling that he could find at least 1,000 fans right near where we live, if we could only reach them.

How? I don't have an answer. How can you reach people who don't go looking for new music, or who aren't going out to hear live music? Word of mouth helps, but once again, we're fighting the perception that "if it was any good, I'd have heard it on the radio".

There can be a lot of negativity attached to someone who "never went anywhere". Whatever else I do, I try to fight that perception. The people I know that "never went anywhere" just keep getting better and better right where they are.

just ramblin'...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael H:
What if you can't figure out where your music fits? According to like major label breakdowns?

---

Then you should get honest opinions from people outside the band. I actively ask others to tell me who they think I sound like, so I have a point of reference.

I recently saw the presskit of a local Seattle band, and in one corner of their one-sheet they had a box labeled "File Under:" which contained the names of artists to compare them to: Indigo Girls, Sarah McLachlan, Aimee Mann. In two seconds I knew what they were all about, what they sound like, and whether I'd like them or not. They didn't waste time trying to convince me that their sound was unlike anything ever heard anywhere.

I don't think there's anyone doing anything so incredibly original and uncategorizable. I think artists make a big mistake in NOT categorizing themselves. No one likes to be pigeonholed, but if you want to win fans, you have to be able to say "we sound like Famous Artist X crossed with Famous Artist Y with a little Famous Artist Z thrown in."

------------------
Scott Andrew
Lo-fi acoustic pop superhero!
http://www.scottandrew.com/music

I agree. It's the same reason you should know what genre you fit into. Make it easy for people to like you and buy your music or come to your show. But be sure you're HONEST about it. People send the wrong types of songs to listings at TAXI and to publishers constantly. They have zero self awareness (or are in self denial) about who they really sound like or compare to. Don't be one of those people. If you really don't know about your own music, you aren't listening to enough of other people's music (which I think is a huge mistake if you have commercial desires).

All kidding aside, I know genres are ultra-important for marketing, but they have very little to do with creating music. So if I pick up a banjo and play my song, now I'm Americana? Maybe I just like the sound of it. Genres have been mixed and mashed to the point where there aren't any clear lines anymore. And that's... OK.

True, there are trad genres that won't ever change much. Dixieland jazz has to be a certain way or it isn't Dixieland jazz anymore. But in the arc of fresh music, anything goes.

This doesn't help much, does it? I mean, people love to be able to say "he's the next Paul McCartney" or "she's the next Sarah Vaughn" because it gives them something to talk about, something that they can relate to. All I can say is, who was it that Kurt Colbain was the "next"? Nobody but himself, I think.

I think genres had more reality when there was some isolation between communities making music- the Ozarks, the Delta, Bakersfield, Chicago... but it's all connected now. It's as if you have to create your own genre of one these days...

Hey, you guys are welcome to do it any way you want. Folks ask for honest input on how to find commercial success. Commercial success isn't an artistic thing.. it's a business thing. When selling ANY product (and after it's created, your music IS a product, if you plan to sell it or make money from it), you need to make it easy and enticing for your customer base. You can be diverse and tell people "I have no genre.. I am diverse" but then when a Metal fan takes the risk and samples your music Michael, he's going to be pissed. At best he's going to go "ack.. not interested.. this dude wasted my time.." Same goes in reverse. Artists often have more diverse tastes, but I am guessing I can find many genres of music that both of you wouldn't much care for. Do you really want to go to the trouble of going to a concert of buying a CD to find out it's that one type of music you already know you don't care for? I doubt it. It's like going to a restaurant and saying bring me anything and hoping it's not something you'll hate. Who really wants that experience? It might be okay to take a quick risk if you, as an artist, have something interesting going on. For example if you have a certain look or play a unique instrument, or have a really interesting back story.. or you have a ton of charisma that people see and say "hey.. I want to hear this person's music because they are so cool.." then maybe you can get away with no genres. But that's such a narrow appeal to such a narrow set of fans. Isn't it easier to say "my music falls into the Country with a Pop edge field" and then a huge number of people who like that music will say "hey.. I might like that.." and a lot of German Death Metal Fans will say.. "thanks but no thanks."

There's never a totally right or wrong way to do things. I used to be on the side of no genres and trying to understand why people wouldn't want to buy an album with a great country song followed by a great dance song followed by a great classical piece folled by a great industrial screamer. But as I learned the reality of the business side (instead of just thinking in terms of the artistic side) I now have a more realistic understanding of how it works. You can always go your own way and spend time and effort forcing fans to consume your music they way YOU want.. or you can spend a little time and thought and get your fans to consume the music you make on THEIR terms. That's a choice you're always free to make.

Remember, you don't need to pick a genre and then write to that genre. You just need to finish your songs.. step back and learn how to describe what you do in terms that fans might be curious and want to check it out. It's really simple but some folks will never do it and are facing a much tougher road to find fans who have about 1 milisecond of patience/tolenrance for anything these days that isn't easy and convenient for them.

I know the folks at KEXP. (In fact, there's a bunch of pictures of us together in DC and then again at their stage at Bumbershoot). But they are a unique station with a specific market share/niche. It's not a big commercial station, it's just the opposite. I used to love a station in Chicago (I think it was WXRT but I might have the call letters wrong) that played a huge variety of music as well. I also personally enjoyed all 60 genres of music in our awards this year. I am the exception. So are the folks who listen to KEXP and similar multi format stations. There is ALWAYS a market for just about anything done really well. But small niche approaches are very difficult to translate to wider commercial appeal. And that is the point of this. Finding an audience for your music. I hope you do it your way and success comes easy and you prove me wrong. But I won't hold my breath. Rather than forcing fans to do it my way, I'd rather spend that time and energy serving my fans with more cool music and shows and interaction.

Brian

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Originally posted by Jeff Coleman:
All kidding aside, I know genres are ultra-important for marketing, but they have very little to do with creating music.

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But, but...that's precisely what we're discussing here. Finding an audience is all about marketing. Getting and keeping your 5000 fans is all about marketing.

And really, it's not about genres per se as it is about figuring out how to accurately describe your music in an "elevator pitch" that people can identify strongly and quickly.

Unless you're into the same folks as me (Hoosier Hotshots f'rinstance) any of the names I suggest we sound like would just raise a "huh?".

There's a little bit of Leon Redbone in my vocals (so I've been told). I've also been described as having a "whiskey and reefer" voice.

There's some Squirrel Nut Zippers feel. Anybody here know them? Maybe a touch of the Asylum Street Spankers and certainly some Shorty Long. Same question though.

Anyone reading this please feel free to listen to the music on the Snake Suspenderz site (see sig again) and let me know who you think we sound like. There's a contact form on the site for just such an exigency.