A lot of artists go this-way-and-that to promote their music. I learned to make web sites because working with computers is a natural fit for me and I didn't want to pay someone else to do it for me.

If you are similarly inclined, you might already have your own site design. For me, it's totally fun, and I like the result is uniquely mine.

I've worked with a lot of different DMS web sites as well. With the exception of the very early days of mp3.com, I made very little money with DMS sites and put in lots of time and energy in ways I do not enjoy as much.

I'd love to hear about good experiences you had that I could learn from.

Anyway, I am getting into PHP and MySQL (the same stuff that CDBaby is made of). I see that I'll be coming up with some cool tools for myself. I have already done something that is working great for me and might also work well for you.

If you have your own web site, check this out.
1) Get a Paypal account.
2) Go to www.vibralogix.com and buy a copy of the Linklok.php script. It's $30 and worth it. (No, I'm not affiliated with them or benefit from your purchase in any way.)
3) Upload your mp3 files into a secret folder on your web server.
4) Follow the Linkok manual to set up a little store on your web site... and now you can sell mp3 files from your own site!

All it takes from here is for you to play shows, get radio airplay, etc and your fans will be buying your music right from your very own website-- regardless of whether or not you've made a CD.

You don't need a contract with a big company (except for getting "big" shows and "mega" radio play, that is).

You don't need to hope for a big feature on the front page of a huge commercial web site.

You will get more money doing it yourself than any other way.

Lastly... the energy is all about your music and your audience. Nothing else gets in the way of that.

Once more, I am not affiliated with vibralogix.com. The only way I will benefit is if you decide to hire me to set this up for your web site, which I am glad to offer at modest rates.

So, have a great day!

Oh yea, here's my selfish plug...

Visit my music web site.
Buy some of my cool tracks.
Go direct, yea! :-)

http://www.racingheart.com

Peace,
~ Alek Vila

And by the way, I just went to the vibralogix web site (it's been a while). I should mention that you must go to the "Products" section to get the Linklok script. They have scripts for a bunch of major shopping cart services.

I use "Linklok Paypal" because I have a Paypal account. Paypal is the cheapest way to sell small items and it works great.

If you want to set up a Paypal account for the first time, do me a favor and use my referral link from my graphic design web site.

I don't have anything like that for the vibralogix site (though I should, huh!).

http://www.greatgraphicdesign.com/links

Yup, PHP and MySQL is the current/old version of CD Baby. It will be changing over to Ruby and PostgreSQL in about 2-3 months. So it won't be PHP and MySQL for much longer. :-)

Finally put up 2 minute clips too. Gives the listener a much better idea of the song.

As far as "secret" folders. How are you setting that up? With an htaccess folder? Cause search engines can still find those mp3's if they're not password protected.

Just make sure your expectations are realistic. Consider how many people are paying attention to you. How many shows do you play? How big is your mailing list? Etc.

Also, with this script, you can sell ANY kind of digital file from your site. That means you can offer sheet music (if you know how to make PDFs with Finale or Sibelius). You can sell photos, articles, whatever.

I love CDBaby. Derek obviously cares about independent music and has offered all of us many great tools for getting our music out there. If you don't have your own web site, I think CDBaby is the best way to go. CDBaby is also great if you don't want to deal with mailing your CD to people. I have received great information from Derek and great tools from the CDBaby.net site.

You can have both if you want... a CDBaby shopping cart on your web site AND a linklok mp3 setup at the same time (granted it might confused some people if they want to buy both).

I still have a page on CDBaby, but it's probably not very busy. I'm selling the CD myself because it's my shopping cart and I can do what I want with it. Also, I can do fun things like personally autograph the discs, send stickers, T-shirts and whatever else the CDBaby staff doesn't have time or space for.

In response to Jody's post. First, thanks! Second, secret folders can exist outside the root folder which makes them invisible to search engines. I use an obscure name and control the access with an htaccess command. My personal belief is... unless I'm U2 or Nirvana, I don't have to worry about piracy. My job is to make my music as accessible as possible in a way that generates the most income as possible. Simple as that.

By the way, many of my music samples are pretty long. The last one I made is over 2 minutes. :-)

Hope this helps y'all!

quote:

---

Originally posted by alekvila:
Also, with this script, you can sell ANY kind of digital file from your site. That means you can offer sheet music (if you know how to make PDFs with Finale or Sibelius). You can sell photos, articles, whatever.

---

If you're using Windows check out CutePDFWriter. It acts as a "printer" so any Windows program that you can print from you can "print to a pdf file". Very easy and free.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alekvila:
My personal belief is... unless I'm U2 or Nirvana, I don't have to worry about piracy.

---

Well, a fellow Seattleite (like me and you) and fellow JPF'er (ditto) named Scott Andrew posted in his blog once:

quote:

---

I keep telling people: stop worrying about piracy and start worrying about obscurity.

---

I'm down with that.

Lastly, check out the posting in the Seattle chapter stuff here on JPF about the upcoming JPF showcase. I'll most likely be there and would love to hook up with another musician/php fhreak. :-)

ciao for now...

------------------
Howlin' Hobbit ( www.howlinhobbit.com )
Got Uke?
Snake Suspenderz ( www.snakesuspenderz.com )
Hot jass, Hokum and Novelty music... with a bite!

TKPal only costs a dollar

http://www.simpleform.com/TKPal/

TypeKey is an authentication system from the people who make the Movable Type weblog software. But you don't have to install TypeKey for this to work, as I understand it.

------------------
Scott Andrew
Lo-fi acoustic pop superhero!
http://www.scottandrew.com/music

My "day job" is developing websites, and I have built a couple of sites which deliver paid-for digital content. The biggest of these publishes and sells e-books as part of their business. The person can order the e-book either on CD or as a download. Delivering the e-book download is just the same as delivering a music file...

Depending on what your own personal goals are for your music business (remember -- it's a BUSINESS!) -- I think this can be a great way to go. The biggest problem with an e-commerce site is simply getting people to go there in the first place. If you're out gigging and promoting the site to continually bring in new visitors, then it should be able to develop into a good little source of income.

--- Ed

I change the name of the catalogue page every three months, and notify my sponsors when I do (people sponsor for a year).

I work this way partly because it's dead simple but mostly because what I want is to build an on-going relationship with listeners.

New songs hit the catalogue weekly. Sponsors come back again and again- I notify them privately and on my home page about new material.

Do search engines find my secret page? Probably, but I don't care. Again, any hits I get that way I view as promotion. I don't believe that "unit sales" is a method that can earn a living for for anyone selling less than tens of thousands of units- am I right?

going for 3,000-

Jeff

Howlin'-- I checked out your music page. Beautiful!

Scott-- Thanks for the tip on TKPal. It sounds like a very cool script. Of course, there's a big difference in functionality. TKPal restricts access to a certain page to authorized users, but you would need a program like Linklok to make the purchase of that access automatic. To me, it doesn't make sense for the application of easily selling mp3 files. With Linklok, everything is automated...

1) the customer adds one or more mp3 files to a shopping cart, just like any other product;

2) pays using credit or checking account;

3) is directed immediately to a special link to download the song (which can be set to expire at any interval you desire);

4) as a back-up, the customer is sent an email with the authorized link in an email.

It couldn't be any easier. The link is encrypted so nobody knows the true location of the file. If at any time you need to send anyone a link to the mp3 file for free, you can use a manual entry HTML page.

I agree with what Ed said about there being different ways to do this. Certainly, an artist could hire someone like Ed or myself or even the folks at vibralogix to design a system for you.

I've been looking for a while now, and I haven't found a cheaper or more efficient way. I think it's totally easy to do this yourself.

Jeff-- I used to do something similar, and I tell you that this system is totally changing the way I work. I am so encouraged to put recordings out because each track is going to help me earn more.

Glad you guys are checking this out. I wish you all the best!

I made some cool templates for printing my own staff paper and lead sheets. With Linklok, I can now sell these pdf files.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dhsongs:
Now the question becomes, is there really going to be buyers for any of our music?

---

That, of course, is the $64,000 question. (Or more, or less, depending on how many downloads you sell...)

If we go out and develop a fan base, there will be buyers for our music just like there are buyers for any major performer's music. Fans buy your stuff -- CDs, downloads, T-shirts, whatever.

If we just put up a website and leave it at that, I suspect we won't sell too much.

Selling music is just like selling anything else. It doesn't happen by magic, you have to work at it.

--- Ed

Let me get this straight- you used to have sponsors who got access to your songs, but now you sell tracks?

How much were you asking in terms of sponsorship? Were you allowing sponsors access to your entire body of work, or just one track at a time?

To me, sponsorship is about sponsoring all my work, past, present, and future. I ask people to support me as a living, breathing person who makes music.

While I can understand your satisfaction everytime a track is sold, how many tracks will you need to sell in order to make a living at it?

The reason I offered this post about Linklok is simple. Many of us already have a web site and are either giving away for free or not offering at all something that could be a source of income. In less than two months, I have made back about $20. That is not a lot of money, but as my library grows, I'll sell more. In a year I will have earned back much more than I invested. It's just gravy from then on.

I understand if you're not ready to sell your music. Many artists don't value the product they make. Many artists even believe that music should be free (and wonder why they can't make a living with it). Yes, there is a plethera of free mp3 file's on the market. That doesn't stop me from asking for money for my work. There is also another end of the spectrum where artists make a lot more than I do for their songs.

There's a great lyric in a song I just heard by "Arcade Fire". It goes, "If you want something, don't ask for nothing. If you want nothing, don't ask for something."

My apologies, Jeff, I didn't have sponsors. What I did was similar to creating a Paypal donation button and then send out a link to mp3 files manually each time. What I like about the new system is the automation factor.

I don't think there's anything wrong with selling MP3s if one wants to do that. Personally, I wouldn't sell individual MP3s, because to me it's a lot like making people pay to listen to the radio. Plus, I wouldn't pay for MP3s myself, so I wouldn't force others to do what I wouldn't do myself.

Instead, I encourage people to sign up on my mailing list in exchange for exclusive access to demos and new songs. I think this has become far more important to me than selling access to the MP3s, because once they're on the mailing list, I can continue to offer them deals on physicial CDs, t-shirts, live show discounts, etc. Plus, the people on the list become "insiders" into my little world.

It's a basic marketing principle: by subscribing, the people on my mailing list have expressed an ongoing interest in my work. In marketing terms, they're "prospects." Those are the people who end up buying stuff from me the most often, so I try to treat them like gold.

So, I use MP3s as bait. I put them up free on my site, and if someone downloads them but never buys a CD or signs up on the list, I just assume they didn't care that much for my style of music. But if they really like my music, there's a good chance they'll want more, and sign up on my list where I can then offer them the Exclusive $30 Crazy Insane Fan Pack which includes a signed CD, a t-shirt and ten stickers. I've made way more money this way than I ever did just selling CDs from my website.

Anyway, points to ponder, YMMV, etc.

All I ask of people that sign up is that they tell two friends about the music they've discovered.

Again, I'm happy for Alek wanting to take on the control of his own sales. But when you're dealing with way more stuff, having another respectable company like CD Baby dealing with the day to day sales and such for only 9%, you can't beat that and it's one less headache for me.

Scott-- I don't think that was a diversion at all. Your point is well taken.

Scott's strategy sounds like a good one and it's working for him. Cool! I'd like to see others try it as well as talk about it on these boards to compare success rates. We could all use these perspectives to help make better informed decisions.

I understand the perspective presented by Scott with comparing selling mp3s to paying for radio. My response is: People do pay for commercial-free radio.

From my perspective, giving away mp3 files is really different from radio. With radio, you can have exposure to a massive audience. With Kazaa. mp3.com, iTunes... you're one of 500,000 artists in a big jar. There's very little exposure there. I would be happy to give away mp3s and be featured on the front page of the iTunes store. That's an easy decision.

Furthermore, there's no cost to duplicating mp3 files, so it's a source of passive income. Every time I hear about a seminar that anyone went to about making money, they always talk about passive income. As independent artists, we need to create ways to earn money without active participation or we wear ourselves out.

I welcome all input around this topic of selling mp3s. I know that my suggestion is not for everyone.

Jody-- I also understand your perspective on letting CDBaby handle Digital Distribution. I mentioned before in another thread that I think CDBaby's DD program is cool. I just don't want them handling as much digital distribution as they have chosen to persue, which is why I cancelled. No need for me to trash them here, especially since I believe they are helping the majority of artists with a high-quality service. It's just not for me anymore.

---

So here's the bottom line from my perspective...

1) if you are selling mp3 files anywhere;
2) if you have your own web site;

Why not set up your site (which is where your fans will go first) with direct sale capability of digital files.

It costs $30 for a script, and if you don't know how to install this PHP script (it's really easy), I will do it for you for $40. Also, you'll need a Paypal account (which is free).

You can mix this with any of the above mentioned strategies; such as a sponsor system, CDBaby DD, CDBaby CD shopping cart, etc.

I welcome further input and questions.

I already have a paypal account, but I'm begining to dislike them and may soon cancel it. They are starting to take too big a percentage on sales. Especially on small ones. Pretty soon it won't be any more attractive than CD Baby's 9%.

Now another thing to consider. Sales you rack up on your own site do not, and probably never will be reported to Soundscan, but those at the major MP3 sales sites do. So while you might see a sale at your site here and there. If you direct someone to a sale at say iTunes, you're helping yourself more than you think. And it's much easier to set up an iTunes link from your site than doing all the PHP scripting and such. Plus, there is such a thing as offering too many options.

Which is why I offer only two ways to get digital downloads. Both of which benefit me way more than selling it right off my site. And I sometimes think even two choices is too much. Not to mention that I link to sell the CD from my site too.

I guess, I just think about the bigger picture in terms of competing with the "big" boys who are signed, where you have to account for sales through SoundScan any way you can.

Another thing you have to factor in... How many non-signed artists are really going to sell enough mp3's from their site to justify the $30 (plus the additional $40 if they come to you for the PHP script)? My guess is, less than 10% and that's not being harsh, just realistic. Now personally I've already gone way beyond that and would have made my money back easily, but since I directed those sales towards iTunes, they all now count towards me getting soundscan sales, and the digital download gold/platinum awards, etc...

That's my thoughts on the matter.

And I'd like to add that I do give a good length of an MP3 sample for free - 2 minutes. That is more than plenty to know what the song sounds like without giving the whole thing away. I think Apple's biggest mistake is the 30 second clips. But I can understand why they do it. 1,000,000+ songs is a lot of hard drive space. But I'm betting things will change in the near future and that Apple will start doing some things different with iTunes.

That's cool about the upcoming changes with the digital distribution system. Also, some of what you have said doesn't make sense to me.

I mean, Paypal takes 3% of my sale, plus 30 cents. If I sell one mp3 file to a customer at 99 cents, I've made 66 cents. That's already better than iTunes or any other service. Often (and this is my experience), people buy two or three mp3 files at a time. For two files, the sale is $1.98 and Paypal takes 36 cents. Now I'm doing MUCH better. For three files, the sale is $2.97 and Paypal takes 39 cents. Now I'm doing well ahead and around the bend.

Furthermore, Soundscan sales don't mean a thing to me unless I'm selling a lot of files... and in that case I'm probably signed. I just think it's unrealistic to expect to compete with the kind of volume sales generated by record labels with a marketing budget when I'm a broke musician.

On the other hand, I will break-even with my method within three months and be generating profit for the rest of my life. 10% of my income is a LOT to me.

Does that seem logical?

Now, I understand you prefer to make that $0.07 cents that you can get domestically, I don't and here's why:

1. It's an added hassle to me that isn't worth the small difference domestically or the negative difference on foreign sales.
2. Take a look at it from Joe Consumer's view... You're out and about and say "hey, you can buy mp3's of my music at my website." Now, in Joe Consumer's mind, why the heck would I go pay for an MP3 that I can get for free somewhere else?

Let's go back to that senario and and change it to say "Hey, you can purchase my music on iTunes (or insert other digital store here)." Now in Joe Consumer's mind he/she is like, wow you must be good to be for sale on iTunes - it doesn't matter if they don't know that anyone can be on iTunes. Plus it shows professionality. Get my drift?

3. It also goes back to the choice thing. People say they love to have choices. But the reality is, if they're given too many choices, then it becomes a pain in the butt. I don't know why that doesn't make sense to you. But here's an example: I used to offer my clips in mp3, realaudio, and wmp. Guess what got used most often - MP3. So, I took the extra samples down and gave just a choice of MP3. Why? Because now most players play MP3's, and realplayer is horrible software.

4. Alek, I suppose I have another reason, but it's "my" reason. That is because I'm the first non-signed artist for sale on iTunes. That to me is worth it's weight in gold. I have Derek from CD Baby to thank for that.

Beyond that, I'm planning on competing against the majors. But I'm crazy like that and I do have a plan.

Boy, ain't that the truth. It's important to find that balance. I used to put links up to every DD and online retailer that carried my tunes, but my sales actually leveled off until I pared it down to just CD Baby, Paypal, iTunes and MP3Tunes (for Windows users who don't have iTunes installed) and removed all the other options. Ubiquity is great, and I don't mind being on Rhapsody and Napster and all that, but it isn't worth my while to advertise that thus far. Two or three big names is really all you need for both digital and physical online distro.

(The only other one worth having IMO is Amazon, which keeps a whopping 55% but you can circumvent that by joining as a merchant and undercutting your own price a little. But there's still a fee, so you gotta work it to make it worth your investment.)

And really, you're buying consumer confidence in those cases. I prefer Paypal because I get to keep more per sale (of physical CDs direct from my bedroom) but it's worth having a few well-known options for people who Just Don't Trust Paypal. I know some people have had problems with Paypal in the past -- I haven't.

Jody-- When I said it didn't make sense to me (what you said), I was referring to your Paypal/CDBaby financial comparison. Your numbers are misleading (I'm sure not intentionally).

You are omitting the fact that CDbaby's 9% fee is on TOP of the percentage taken by the retailer. iTunes, Rhapsody and the rest will take a big cut of the sale. Look at the bottom line. http://www.cdbaby.net/dd?f=4

The total return to the artist from any given retailer through the CDBaby DD system is about 55 cents (sometimes more or less) after CDBaby and the retail take their cut. I do better than that-- always. Often MUCH better than that. That was the point I was trying to make.

Furthermore, I respect your opinion regarding ways to acheive a sale. If you believe that it's easier for you to sell your music by attaching your name to the "iTunes" brand, then it probably is. I cannot and will not argue with you about this.

For me, it's easier for me to sell directly through my own web site.

You asked me to look at it from Joe Consumer's P.O.V.-- I can't do that without a serious market poll. No matter how hard I try... without statistical research, I always look at it through my own eyes.

Here's what I see as a music consumer (being one myself). If I like a band because I heard them on the radio, I use whatever channels I'm accustomed to for making purchases. I don't use iTunes, but if I did, I'd probably look there first. Personally, I would probably go to Amazon.com first and look for an album. Then I might go to the artist's web site.

Please note: I do find value to being on iTunes, Rhapsody and as many other choices as possible. No, I do not want them all showcased from my web site (for the reasons that you and Scott have both outlined). I only list the majors.

Back to being a music consumer...

If I like an artist, and I know that the artist is not signed, I inevitably go directly to the artist's web site first to learn more and see what's available. If the artist has demo tracks, mp3's for free, great... I download away and most likely have a nice memory but not give the artist any money. Also, I might never listen to the track again because I personally don't care about mp3 files. I listen to my CDs more than anything else, even though I have a 20 gig Archos Jukebox.

If the artist described above were to eventually be signed to a big label, and I saw an album in a record store and felt like making an impulse purchase, that memory of hearing their music might help me to make a purchase or at least go to the listening booth.

If, on the other hand, the artist were to have had nice long samples of their music on their "unsigned" web site and they had mp3's for sale instead of available for free... chances are good that I would buy at least one track before I consider spending $10-20 on a CD. In that case, I would probably feel an energetic pull to listen to that track once in a while, since I paid for it.

In that case, I would probably revisit the artist's web site once in a while. I would probably add more tracks if I found more good ones down the road. It would probably change my listening habits and help me take advantage of the system I already own.

I'm not speaking for anyone but myself. I also speak for myself when I report my success with my system and recommend it to you and other indie artists. I'm reporting my results- plain and simple.

Of course, I will shoot for the moon in terms of hitting it big. I'm very aware of the way hits are made in this country. It might be overnight. It might be a long road. In the meantime, I'm going to make money so I can enjoy the present moment with some satisfaction. I don't think I'm hurting my business by attaching a price tag to my mp3 files. On the other hand, I do think I'm helping my business. I believe in the power of monetary exchange. When I pay for something-- I value it more. I believe that my customers value my mp3 files more because they bought them.

Jody-- I wish you loads of success and a big fat record deal. I'm glad you have pride in being the first non-signed artist on iTunes (congrats!), and I hope you received some nice iTunes advertising as a result. If so, you probably made some decent money from that deal. Cool!

Sorry to write so much. I wanted to make sure I speak clearly and from my heart.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alekvila:
Hi guys,

Jody-- When I said it didn't make sense to me (what you said), I was referring to your Paypal/CDBaby financial comparison. Your numbers are misleading (I'm sure not intentionally).

You are omitting the fact that CDbaby's 9% fee is on TOP of the percentage taken by the retailer. iTunes, Rhapsody and the rest will take a big cut of the sale. Look at the bottom line. http://www.cdbaby.net/dd?f=4

The total return to the artist from any given retailer through the CDBaby DD system is about 55 cents (sometimes more or less) after CDBaby and the retail take their cut. I do better than that-- always. Often MUCH better than that. That was the point I was trying to make.

**** snip ****

Jody-- I wish you loads of success and a big fat record deal. I'm glad you have pride in being the first non-signed artist on iTunes (congrats!), and I hope you received some nice iTunes advertising as a result. If so, you probably made some decent money from that deal. Cool!

Sorry to write so much. I wanted to make sure I speak clearly and from my heart.

~ Alek

---

Alek, my numbers are not misleading. I'm very aware that I get $0.59 cents per song on iTunes, that is after Apple's cut and after CD Baby's cut. I'm not sure where you get the $0.55 cent figure. You make $0.66 cents on your MP3 sale. That is a difference of $0.07 cents. That's simple math. I also know that I get at least $0.89 cents per sale in foriegn markets, after Apple and CD Baby. Now that's a diffence of $0.23 cents in favor of iTunes. I'm not misleading anyone here. That's fact. When you sell a song at $0.99 cents and Paypal takes over $0.30, then you're giving up over 30% of your sale to a corporation that doesn't care to help musicians. Apple may not care either, but they like-it-or-not have helped to jump-start a major change in the music industry. So has CD Baby.

As far as your view of Joe Consumer, you might want to start polling people who buy your music. Ask them what prompted them too, what they like best about it, how they make their music purchases and why. Now obviously you can't do this when someone downloads from a major chain like Rhapsody or Apple. However, if you talk to non-musicians you will get a completely different view of how people perceive music. I've changed my thinking drastically after talking to the people I want to sell to. My target is not other musicians. That doesn't mean I want to exlude musicians from buying me.

I'm not looking for a record deal. Call me weird. But as I stated before, I have a plan and it's already in action.

I do believe you should sell your songs however you see fit. But I'm providing an alternate viewpoint and attempting to show people that some options need to be more carefully looked at. And I'm letting you know that you should take it in your heart and figure out who your target consumer is. Why? It will help you sell better. And no I don't believe you can sell your music to everyone on earth. I used to think that way, but it isn't a realistic way to sell.

That's me thinking/speaking from my heart and based on things I've learned along the way.

Again in reference to your link to CD Baby's DD. The numbers they show are what comes to CD Baby, that's after that services cut. All you need to do is take off 9% of that number and that's what you'd get from CD Baby. But I'm also speaking from the experience of having sold music through several of those sites. The numbers I've posted in previous messages here are actual numbers from songs sold.

I'm not misleading anyone here.

I cannot compare 10% to 30% the way you just did. When you make this comparison, you are neglecting to include the percentage taken by the retailer, and that is misleading. I am not attacking your personal integrity, Jody, so please don't take it that way.

I agree with your comparison of 59 cents to 66 cents. (Yes, I get 66 cents per song, not 63). Now we're talking apples-to-apples. In this way, I see that you are agreeing with me. You are saying that I earn 7 cents more per domestic download by going direct than I would by selling through iTunes. I also mentioned that I earn better than 66 cents on any purchase of two or more song files (see above for the numbers).

If you wish to include foreign sales income in your comparison, I welcome the comparison. I will mention that the Linklok script can be set to include different prices for a variety of currencies. In foreign markets where one may charge more than 99 US cents, you alter your price. Personally, I don't bother with this. Why? Because I am not marketing overseas; therefore, overseas sales are neglible to me.

I will wrap up my thoughts with this:

To me, direct sales means...
1) I get more income per song;
2) I get more income per purchase (as in the case of multi-song purchases;
3) I make more sales in general;
4) does not preclude me from signing up with other partners for digital distribution;
5) I can sell mp3 singles, demo tracks, live recordings, etc. (IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO PRODUCE AN ALBUM);
6) I can sell other types of digital media (i.e.- sheet music, photos, etc.).

Jody-- That's cool that you have a plan to take on the majors without a record deal. I'd love to hear more about it if you feel like sharing. I'm sure I could benefit from your strategic thinking. Thanks for adding your input. Furthermore, I appreciate your advocacy for CDBaby. I admit I don't understand your resistence to my idea, since I don't say you can't do business with CDBaby anyway. Anyway, like I said-- I'd like to hear more about your plan when you've got time to write more.

Later! :-)

"Many artists don't value the product they make. Many artists even believe that music should be free (and wonder why they can't make a living with it). Yes, there is a plethera of free mp3 file's on the market. That doesn't stop me from asking for money for my work."

I'm not picking on you, Alek. I've heard this argument from a lot of people over the years. It's the wrong argument.

I value my music. I may even value it more than you value yours. After all, you're willing to sell yours for a price set by the major music producers, a price which I believe is set far too low for the actual value that goes into that music.

The majors can get away with this because they sell tons of product. They also buy their way into ads and into movie soundtracks. They buy lots of airplay and collect money for that. Ringtones? You name it- they are making money on it.

Are you gonna compete with that? I'm not willing to sell my music at a unit price set by the mass market. It would be like a carpenter selling a custom built home for the price of a pre-fab. Even if the finished product is identical in every way, that guy is a fool. He can't make a living trying to compete on price with a manufacturer who has all the advantages of the assembly line.

Now, it's possible that the carpenter, the craftsman, can deliver a product for which he can ask more than the pre-fab house. It's possible musicians can do this too. Do you think your music might actually be better than the product turned out by the assembly line?

That's a whole 'nother thread right there. But to get back to my original point, I think the answer is to move away from the idea of music as a product and get people to support us music makers directly. Giving away the product is one way to encourage a different way of thinking on the part of the listener.

I know, this screams "loser!" to most people. Hey, that's OK with me- I'm no loser. If the music is good, some of those listeners are going to be curious enough to want to find out more.

Jeff

It would be foolish of me to think that you are picking on me by presenting your opinion and strategy. I want to hear this, and I respect your perspective totally.

I do try to avoid using the words "right" and "wrong" in an absolute sense. I'm sure you didn't intend that your strategy is absolutely better than anyone else's. If it works for you, great! And I want to hear more about it. Please! What is it like for you to have people sponsoring you. What does that look like? How does it work? How does it affect your art?

I apologize for implying that you don't value your music. It wasn't personally directed at you. It was directed at myself in the past when I did not value my own work as much as I do now.

You're right that I picked 99 cents for the price of my mp3 files because I thought that's what the market would bear. Your note has caused me to consider whether or not I should charge more.

On the other hand, I do feel afraid to charge more. I guess I don't see these digital files as worth very much. I wouldn't pay much more than $1 for a digital file. It's pretty much the most I'd pay - so you're right that I don't value them as much as you. Food for thought, for sure.

Something to think about... your carpenter analogy is useful. When I consider that it doesn't cost anything to replicate an mp3 file, the custom cabinet vs. pre-fab doesn't necessarily apply. I still see your point because it can apply in other ways to my life.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alekvila:
Hi Jeff,

Something to think about... your carpenter analogy is useful. When I consider that it doesn't cost anything to replicate an mp3 file, the custom cabinet vs. pre-fab doesn't necessarily apply. I still see your point because it can apply in other ways to my life.

~ Alek

---

As long as we're making analogies...Didn't Stephen King, a few years ago, try to write a book on-line? If memory serves, he thought he could write a chapter at a time & have people pay for downloads as they went(on an honor system). Yeah, right, okay....I think he got about 4 chapters into it or something and realized that everyone was downloading it for free and then he abandoned the whole idea and went back to the traditional method...

I guess it comes down to an artist with a product needs to figure out the best way to separate the consumer from his cash...I've been going over a lot of options lately, with an eye on the long run, so I really appreciate hearing about the different methods y'all are using...My first step was creating my own Site, but the next step could go in several different directions...Hhmmm

Midnite

quote:

---

Originally posted by Midnite Bob:
As long as we're making analogies...Didn't Stephen King, a few years ago, try to write a book on-line? If memory serves, he thought he could write a chapter at a time & have people pay for downloads as they went(on an honor system). Yeah, right, okay....I think he got about 4 chapters into it or something and realized that everyone was downloading it for free and then he abandoned the whole idea and went back to the traditional method...

---

It's not as simple as that. At the time King was writing The Plant, e-books were a real pain to read. It's been five years since then, and they're still a pain to read. In fact, audio books (like those at audible.com) are far more common online than e-books. Who wants to download a huge PDF and read it onscreen, or print it out to read later? How many King fans had Palm Pilots back in 2000?

It's far more likely that Stephen King's online book experiment failed not because of piracy, but because the e-book format just sucks and never really caught on. Not even King himself, as popular as he is, could make the experience of reading an e-book more enjoyable.

By contrast, music is far more portable and suited for the Internet than books. If reading giant PDFs online were as quick, easy and as enjoyable as listening to music online, there probably would have been a different outcome back then.

With all the new technology and companies, there's really no way to know which approach will stick and become the common model of success. I am with Jeff in that I think the answer for indies who aren't on a the major label type path is to build the fan base and create a model where you get 20-30 bucks a year for them for all access to your work, new and old, and original content and even custom music for them. If you were making 100-150K from your small but passionate fan base, you could travel to them, do house concerts, send them video files, do live chats and so on. High service. A patronage system is long overdue in the pendulum of the music industry. I think it might be worth pursuing and refining. All the approaches above could be included in that process as well.

How do you spread the word? Do gigs? How many new fans are you going to get with each performance who would be interested in buying mp3's? Seems to me, they'd just buy a CD at your show.

In other words, I see pennies here and there.

You go do a radio show on a small station. How many mp3's would you get? A few?

It's just hard for me to envision how ANY model can work for an indie without promotion help. Even with street team help here and there, a tough biz. Talking about having to sell thousands of mp3's just to make a few hundred bucks a year... I dunno if this is worth fooling with.

Some money is better than no money, of course, but it always takes work. There are people making thousands of dollars from Amazon links, but those people are constantly tweaking and re-tweaking their websites, merchandising them just like Kmart does, ALL DAY LONG. I'm not kidding. It's work! And then, there's the traffic problem. Google ads and Amazon links don't work for squat if no one is visiting my website.

Passive income is a nice idea but it takes work to get anything more than a few dollars out of it. At least that's my experience.

------------------
Scott Andrew
Lo-fi acoustic pop superhero!
http://www.scottandrew.com/music

On the Stephen King subject, I actually did read that book. I did spend the measly money to read it. It was actually pretty good. But then I'm into tech things like that. And it was cool to read a book on a palm pilot. I read Harry Potter that way to.

Brian's right, there isn't any one way to make money. And while I admire Alek's drive in going complete like that, I still feel offering too many choices is just a pain. I'd rather support companies that are helping me. For a few pennies more it's not really much skin off my nose, unless I'm selling 100,000 downloads in a year. Then it would be something, however, if I'm making that much in sales PayPal would start taking a bigger cut - as is outlined in their agreement, because then it becomes a different type of account.

Either way, I like the two big dogs and I also know Derek is going to be modifying things so that should I choose to not support someone like Michael Robertson, I can opt not to.

In reference to Duke & Scotts last responses, its kinda the jist of what I've been saying. It's a lot of extra work for very little return in comparison to the name branding you get via iTunes, Rhapsody, what have you. I guess since it doesn't cost any extra from CD Baby and I get the "security" of DRM from those services for $0.07 cents, then I'll forgo the extra leg work of all that programming on my site and let the big boys handle it. I think it's worth that much to me.

Truth- there are about twenty people who have sponsored my work so far, over about 3 years. There are probably 20 different reasons why they've done so! But the pace of the sponsorship has picked up, and the reasons are getting to be more in line with what I've been preachin', so I'm encouraged.

As far as how it affects my work, it doesn't. I think I make it clear that sponsorship means "keep on doin' what you're doin'". As far as how I see it evolving, why, it's something I wish I'd started doing 30 years ago. 'Course, at 20 you never think you'll get older... and you're sure you'll be a star. But I never thought I'd ever NOT be making music, and I don't see why I'd stop doing it anytime soon, so maybe I have another 30 years in me.

Jeff-- I appreciate the sensitivity that you use. It's cool. Thanks!

Jody-- I'm not offering everything under the sun. Depending on which way my audience is coming from, they are channelled directly down the simplest path I know how to create. I don't believe that my method is the mega-choice warehouse, and I don't understand why you paint this picture. You've been to my web site. If you were confused by it, I'd like to know so I can improve it.

If anyone wants to go to my web site and take a look around, I'd like to hear about your experience: http://www.racingheart.com

I've been snooping around Jeff's Steam Powered web site. I think that Jeff and Brian have an interesting idea. I know why I feel resistance to it, and it has nothing to do with the merit of the idea.

I'm resistant because a part of me still hopes that I can be selling CDs and played on the radio like the guys on the labels. It's ridiculous, really. I hate the system and also seem to want to be a part of it. ugh... damned split-personality. What can I say?

I am curious to learn more about sponsorship. I think it's a great idea. After visiting your site, I think that you have a potential gold mine.

I'm wondering...

Do you still produce physical product (albums, T-shirts, posters, etc.)? If so, do you give your sponsors this stuff for free?

What about close friends and family... are invited in for free? How do you draw the line and ask for sponsorship from people?

The whole idea of asking for sponsorship kinda scares me to be honest, but I know you've got to ask to receive. For even a base level salary, I would need to maintain 1,000 members paying $20/year. Then of course I have to deduct the business costs and taxes, so maybe more like 1,500 to 2,000 members for a base-level salary. How hard is that to acheive?

I really appreciate that Jeff is sharing his numbers with us. Still, I don't think it sounds so hard to find 1,000 - 2,000 sponsors. Is it?

$20 sounds totally cheap. I have to consider that once I set a price it's going to be really tough to raise it. So I better make it the right price... whatever that is. Is $20 too cheap?

By the way, should this be a new thread? I really would like to hear more discussion on this topic.

Thanks everyone,

Honestly guys, once the program has been set up, you can easily add new products with a text editor (I like BBEdit, but you can easily use WordPad).

If you have your own web site, chances are that you know how to do an FTP upload (add your mp3 file to your web server). To add a new product, all you have to do is add another line to the top of the Linklok script and add a new button on your store page.

If you have a site that is as detailed as mine, with links scattered throughout, it's a little more work, but you probably won't have all that. All you need is a list of files with "Add to Cart" links next to them.

To me, this is as passive as it gets with total control. If I go on vacation for a month, my web site will still function. I can still earn money from the current catalog, and I don't have to do a thing. That's what I'm talking about when I say passive income.

:-)

Part of my opposing view was based on numbers you yourself wrote, something to the effect that Paypal takes 3% + $0.30 cents, now maybe you made a typo, but when I work that out it comes to $0.63 cents on a single download - I know I get $0.59. Granted your method may make more on a sale where you sell more songs, but I don't get to see if people are purchasing multiple singles from me, maybe they are, the reports aren't that in depth. But I've sold at least two downloads of every song I have on iTunes. Most have sold way more than that. I've even sold full album downloads on these services. I know that DRM isn't iron clad, but hey it makes me feel better about the sale - your method does not allow for a DRM, the biggest reason I actually oppose it. I do offer free clips on my site that easily give plenty of the song for the listener to get a great idea of it.

To me, it's much easier to send my discs to CD Baby, tell them I want it to also be digitally distributed (soon to allow for me to choose who - so I can stop being on all the services that don't have DRM) - for no extra cost up front mind you. Then sit back and let them deal with the sales from my site, including shipping physical copies. As you say, I can be out on a vacation or playing a gig and my website is still making me money, including physical CD's. I don't have to bother with extra code here or there and I can do it from anywhere in the world on any computer. When I put up a new CD or Song, all I do it add it to the database, and presto it goes right where it's supposed to. No changing code, nothing difficult to screw up. Keeps things very simple. As I said before a few cents for letting someone else deal with it while I'm out writing/playing/recording/selling is fine with me.

Jody

I opened a new thread about sponsorships. Hoping to hear from Jeff, Brian and anyone else interested in discussing this idea.

~ Alek

Where is your site? I've been wanting to hear some of your music! You can email it to me if you wish - thematrixeye@hotmail.com

Thanks!

Nevermind...just found it! I'll have to wait until i get home to check it out, sound is blocked here at work. how dare they!!

I thought I'd toss in my 2 cents. I run 96decibels.com, we are an ICP of Shared Media Licensing, Inc.'s WeedShare digital distribution network.

Our goal has been to spread the music available through the WeedShare system to as broad an audience as possible by syndicating the entire catalog of Weed Music to any web site that registers.

The entire CD Baby collection of digital music is included as well as the tracks of those artists that have had their music Weedified outside of the CD Baby system.

That's roughly 86,000 some odd Weed Music tracks available for inclusion on any website that can accept a single line of html iframe code. We offer it all up for absolutely no charge. Free.. how kewl is that.

But lets face it... artists will quickly get lost in the shuffle of such a large inventory of music. And if you're running a Hip Hop site do you really care about Celtic Folk songs. By opting for the advanced Seed - Weed Music Directory, the webmaster has at his disposal fully enabled feature page administration. Change the artist description, album and artist image, choose from 4 different formats and multiple artists to a single feature page, man the list goes on and on....

The point I'm trying to make without sounding like a rolling advertisement is that a collaborative enviornment is a good thing. We'll provide you with the full WeedShare inventory to include the CD Baby tracks for free... absolutely free. Or, you can opt for the more advance Seed - Weed Music Directory and get all the functionality that we've spent 1,000's of hours coding all for just $29.95 per year.

So what's in it for you besides 86,000 legally downloadable weed tracks? With the advanced Seed - Weed Music Directory you are automatically enrolled in our affiliate program which pays a 30% commission on any subscriptions for a Seed - Weed Music Directory. This commission is paid annually for as long as the subscription is active.

WeedShare was smart enough to see the value of wrapping the store around the audio file and then rewarding the artists and those that helped distribute the songs with each and every transaction, all handled real time, through an already proven paypal affiliation.

The WeedShare philosophy of "Share Some" is embodied in the Weed Music Directory. Share some...

The Weed Music directory has been choosen to power the Cyber Cafe Digital Music Network

Grammy winning Sananda Maitreya's trustyfiles P2P network is is powered by the Weed Music Directory - check it out at:
http://www.sanandamaitreya.com/trustyfiles/weed.html

emailthissong.com has recently opted to use the Weed Music Directory to power its new email music distribution service.

That train is leaving the station.... all aboard.

Unless, of course, you are dead set on building your own train!

Jody

There are a couple of CD Baby albums not up yet. But that will be rectified shortly.

The volume of digital material that was made available thru the CD Baby and WeedShare is considerable. Since it has only recently become available, there are still a few issues to iron out.

Kinda kewl that all that music is being made available for inclusion on any website for free, and yet, because the store is wrapped around the audio file, the artist can still get paid.

Our hope is that we can broadly disseminate access to the music of Artists participating in the WeedShare system. Which is why we make the Weed Music Directoy freely available to webmasters.

Keep it a Win-Win-Win ... cause after all - "We're all in it together"

Donald Bly
96decibels.com
Collaborating on Music, its Creation and Distribution