I got this email forwarded to me from Alan O'Day. This might be worth activating our JPF PAN (Political Advocacy Network) for. I want some of you who are motivated to read this and give me your thoughts before I move forward. Please let me know.

Brian

------------------------------------
From: "Russ & Julie's House Concerts" <houseconcerts@jrp-graphics.com>
Subject: House Concerts & Your Freedom Of Speech
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 12:36:21 -0700
To: Russ Paris <russ@jrp-graphics.com>

Dear Friends,

We're sorry for the form letter, but we believe that this is very
IMPORTANT as it directly effects your FREEDOM OF SPEECH and our music
community. It's a little long, but PLEASE take the time to read the
letter below from our friend Cindy Harris who has been hosting House
Concerts for many years. If there is ANYTHING at all you can do to
help her, please contact Cindy directly. As HOUSE CONCERT hosts, we
are appalled that a zoning board in this country could attempt to shut
down PRIVATE PARTIES in a private residence... thus putting an end to
House Concerts as we know them... not to mention our right of free
association. The fact that Cindy's case has been brought in FEDERAL
COURT may have wide ranging effects.

While we're writing, we'd also like to remind you that this year's Folk
Alliance Region West (FAR-West) conference will be held November 17-19,
2006 in Sacramento, CA. About 40% of our bookings for this year have
come about through the past couple of FAR-West conferences. Showcase
opportunities abound, there a lots of great workshops, and you won't
find a better networking experience. We hope to see you there this
year. More information and the registration package are available at:
http://www.far-west.org
(Showcase information will be posted sometime in the next week or two
and early-bird registration runs through May 31st.

Thanks for your support of independent music and House Concerts.

Russ & Julie
Russ & Julie's House Concerts
http://www.houseconcerts.us

- - - - - FORWARDED MESSAGE - - - - -
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:52:17 -0400
From: "Cindy Harris"
Subject: House Concerts are now a Federal case

Many of you are aware that my husband and I have been hosting house
concerts for the last three years under the cloud of a cease and
desist order from our local zoning authorities (O'Hara Township,
Pennsylvania -- just north of Pittsburgh). The order threatens us
with fines and prosecution for violating the Township zoning
ordininance. We supposedly violated this ordinance simply by hosting
house concerts in our living room. An appeal to the Zoning Hearing
Board in April of 2003 created a legal finding that we must stop
hosting those gatherings as they were then constituted. Since the
Township felt that our web site was "advertising" and articles in the
paper about upcoming concerts were "publicity" we took down the web
site and declined to speak with the press, but continued to host
gatherings. We also took care to make it clear that we did not sell
tickets, and that friends who attended our gatherings were voluntarily
chipping in for the music just as people often chip in for pizza and
beer at a Steelers party.

Over the next three years we hosted another seven concerts with no
further word from either neighbors or the Township. But in January a
complaint from a neighbor that we were continuing to host these
parties caused the Township to deliver a letter threatening to take us
to court and fine us if we followed through on the four additional
gatherings we had planned.

At the end of the Zoning Hearing Board review of our appeal of the
cease and desist order in April of 2003, I read into the record a
statement intended to make it clear that we viewed the cease and
desist order as a potential violation of our right to free speech and
association, and stating that if
the ZHB chose to uphold it and enforce it, we intended to defend those
rights. Since the Township has now warned of impending action
against us, we've filed a complaint in Federal court alleging eight
specific violations of our constitutional rights and requesting an
injunction against the Township to prevent them from taking any action
against us.

So the die is cast. And since this is a Federal lawsuit, if it goes
to trial the precedent that is set will be relevant for all of you,
hosts and performers alike. So I've got a little plan to generate
some favorable and fun publicity that I'd like to put in place, and
I'm hoping that you all will be willing to assist:

1. I've updated the web site that I used to use for information about
house
concerts with current status information to augment the terse statement
about the cease and desist order that I left there when I took down the
house concert information. The web site is at http://tinyurl.com/ncv9t

2. Since they happened to be the lucky artists who were our first
house concert after the latest action by the Township and since
there's a possibility that their freedom of speech was also violated
by the Township, Jay Mankita and Kathy Moser have joined us as
co-plaintiffs. The experience of performing while everyone was
watching out the front window to see if the Township police were
coming up the street to arrest me and break up the gathering inspired
Kathy to compose a fun song called "Music In My Living Room." I've
posted the words to the song and Kathy's recording on my web site. If
you have contacts in radio I'd encourage you to make them aware of
both this ongoing issue and the recording and encourage them to talk
about it and play it on the air. Kathy graciously donated the rights
to the song to my legal defense fund, so I am
here specifically giving you permission to make as many CD copies of
the song as necessary for this purpose. In addition, if those of you
who are performers would like to tell the story as you travel and sing
the song, I'd encourage you to do that. Let's just call it an
exercise in consciousness-raising, shall we?

3. I've started a blog relating to this experience. The blog can be
found at http://livingroommusic.blogspot.com/ . Right now I'm just
telling the story in "chapters," but blogs need a constant flow of
interesting information if they are to be effective and I'm going hit
the current end of the story in just a few more postings. So if you
are a performer and you talk to audiences about these issues or sing
Kathy's song or write one of your own, write to me about your
experience. If you're a house concert host and you have related
experiences or discussions about these issues with your guests, write
to me about it. If you're a blogger and like to write about your
experiences yourself, let me know so I can link to what you've
written. If you spot any articles in any publication that's related
to house concerts, let me know about them. If you are aware of other
blogs related in any way to this subject, such as First Amendment
rights, folk music, governments that overstep their appropriate
authority, zoning issues, etc. let me know about them or point them
yourself to my web page or blog. And so on and so forth -- basically I
need a flow of information to get the process started. I'm hoping
that once it gets going it will become self-sustaining, but I'll need
some help to prime the pump. I'd also encourage all of you who host
web sites to link to the blog, and if you take RSS feeds, you can
subscribe to http://livingroommusic.blogspot.com/atom.xml and catch
the story as it unfolds. All of those links and subscriptions will
help the blog get noticed and hopefully generate some favorable
publicity as well as new insights.

4. There have been a number of published articles about house
concerts mentioned over the last several years. if those of you who
mentioned them wouldn't mind sending me the links, that would be very
helpful.

Once again my thanks to all of you for supporting the house concert
scene and for cheering my husband and I on as we find ourselves
suddenly compelled to defend rights to privacy, assembly and freedom
of speech that most people would assume should never need defending.
Who ever knew that music in ones own living room could be so
subversive???

Cindy Harris
O'Hara Township (Pittsburgh), PA

However, when those two items are removed from the equation, and additionally they are not selling tickets, rather it is donation driven, as are most house concerts, then the hosts are exactly right, a house concert is no different than a Tupperware party, a Pampered Chief party, AMWAY, Boy Scouts, or any other type gathering or party at a private residence. With the web site and newspaper publicity removed, I am now completely on the host's side.

That's my opinion...

If you are advertising and selling tickets, then it is a commercial activity and the zoning board would have jurisdiction. Remove those elements, and you remove their reason to be involved.

------------------
Marty my home

But it's not a "disturbing the peace" case since there was never any disturbing the peace violation cited. Its strictly a zoning violation.

Stu - if you review the links, the concerts occurred a maximum of 8 times in a year and a total of 26 times over 8 years. The hosts derive no income from the events. It also appears that after going to the zoning officer and the zoning board's attourney to request a determination of compliance, they were unable to despite removing the details from the website and not requesting donations for the performers.

Please believe me when I say up front that I support this cause. And I would support it even if they were tupperware parties. I read the blogs and it looks like they are great parties conducted in a responsible fashion.

On the other hand, it strikes me that the whole thing could have been avoided.

To me, 26 parties in 5 years seems a little excessive.

I live in a surburban neighborhood. Many of my neighbors hold parties. I hold some. They always place a minor incovenience on the other members of the community. I am always able to smile in the aftermath of one of my neighbors parties because I know they cut me some slack when I have one. And I know that Joe is gonna have his Christmas party just once a year and Bill is gonna have his 4th of July bash just one a year.

If a person has 1 or 2 parties a year, the greatest neighbor will not think a thing of it and the grumpiest would, at most, get a little annoyed. But 26 parties in 5 years? Now you're risking annoying people. Even the most minor inconveniences have a cummulative effect - particularly when there is no end in sight.

Am I within my rights to hold that many parties? Sure. If my neighbors get annoyed, should they just have to suck it up and live with it? As long as I am not breaking the law, yes, they should. Am I balancing my own interests and those of my neighbors fairly? In my opinion, no.

If people enjoyed my parties that much, I would say, "Hey, why don't you host one next month?". Spread the wealth! And the minor inconveniences.

Again, I support this cause and it looks like Cindy is responsible. But the reactions of those who live around you must be anticipated and considered, even if they are not reasonable.

I am making my statements based not on right or wrong, legal or illegal. But on how one gets along with others.

Maybe I'm out of line - it's possible that just one person got upset and all the other neighbors are fine with it. Have they talked to their neighbors?

Ending up in court is a loss - for all involved but the lawyers. Even if you ARE in the right.

Scott

------------------
Later,

I have a neighbor who has at least one large gathering at his house every 2 months or sooner. It's a little bit of an annoyance, but I'm aware of it and it never gets out of hand. It really comes down to, do you get along with your neighbors? Because obviously there is someone they're not getting along with.

The only real business going on is money going to the performer. However, I'm sure there are some house concerts where tickets are sold - though I'm willing to bet that money still goes to the performer.

I have to agree with a previous post, that this will likely backfire and create a law where there was no law before. Yet another regulation that is essentially unnecessary all because someone couldn't make nice with a neighbor. If I can make the amount of noise I make and park a tour bus in a neighborhood without upsetting neighbors, then people should be able to hold house concerts by being courteous. Get to know your neighbors, that's the best way to avoid issues.

Jody

But really, like any other gathering that people could buy things from, or just have fun, as long as a sound ordinance isn't being violated in that case, (like after 10PM, you can't have sounds heard outside), how could there be an issue of breaking any other ordinance? Have the township focus on issues that are planning to hurt others, like drug dealers who are gathering in their area, which is likely, Or terroist meetings.

Geezzz,,,this is music! And it's not being done as a business! Stupid people who just don't like musicians for some reason. Like I said, I ran into those types, and they try to make you out as if you're doing something terrible. Predudice against musicians is what I think it boils down to. Silly if so. Maybe they think drugs are being bought and sold under the guise of music. ???? I don't see them being successful unless the musicians have a dummy for a lawyer. What law has been broken? Business or otherwise? It's may also be that someone on counsel doesn't like the people in the house giving the concerts, and that neighbor who called sparked their action, or could be friends with him/her, knowing action could be taken. ???

I find myself agreeing with aspects of both sides of this issue. Beyond simple musical gatherings, what if you substituted a political fundraiser instead? What about a series of Children's events? What about parties on holidays? What about having a backyard bar-be-que where you collect for food? What about a charity fundraiser? What about religious meetings? What about simply meeting for a songwriters group? (JPF is free.. but what if we had a meeting where we collected for the snacks? Or what if the group was NSAI who has a member fee and held a meeting at a home?). There really are a LOT of potential issues involved here. Is it only a factor of frequency? To me, it's either or. Either it's legal and okay to assemble under certain terms.. or it's not.. whether it happens 1 time or 100 times.

I've thought of having some JPF meetings here at my house. We also had a single House Concert here in March. For that, we canvassed the entire neighborhood, 2 blocks in each direction and invited all the neighbors to come. We heard from 2 neighbors, and 1 attended. Not a peep from the other 70 we invited. So we went door to door and it was eye opening how shocked people were to get a visit from a neighbor inviting them to something. It was like we were unwelcome vacuum salesman. We're new in the neighborhood.. but so are most of our neighbors since most houses are brand new. It was clear that we live in a day and age where neighbors interacting is uncomfortable for many. So we took every measure we could think of to both notify and include the neighbors, but we realized that not only were most neither responsive or polite, but in general we couldn't get any reading from them at all. In our case, there is zero noise factor coming out of our house during a house concert. Even with the volume up all the way. In fact, our TV upstairs produced more ambient noise outside the house than our basement house concert. So we're not worried about noise levels. We had perhaps 10-12 extra cars parked in the driveway and in front of the house, but other homes have parties with even more than us. We didn't advertise in public places, but I did mention it in the newsletter, we placed direct invitations in the mail for neighbors and I did send some emails out to invite people, which might fall under this scenario above.

So, even when handling it as responsibly as possible (i.e. no charge, no overt advertising, no noise) we still could easily get in trouble with 1 disgruntled neighbor which we couldn't possibly please. Or, we could have the opposite experience, we could be noisy, advertise in local papers, never invite neighbors again and perhaps never have a single problem. So, should we work to establish a set of fair standards, or should we simply allow randomness to rule? What if it switches from music to religion, politics or any number of other activities? Do we really have a right to assemble in the US or not? I see that as a significant thing to consider. If it's a private home, shouldn't we have the right to conduct whatever legal activity we please in our homes? Should we be allowed to invite others? If we can't assemble anyone we want in our own homes, then how long do you think we can do it in public places either? If there are restrictions to assembling, what are they exactly and don't any restrictions risk us losing that right altogether some day? I think this could really be a serious issue.

I am not really hardcore on either side of this. I don't think people should be able to abuse their neighbors. But abuse is a weird thing. One persons abuse is another persons reasonable party. Frankly the groups of kids playing outside are FAR louder and disruptive than any of the parties/gatherings in our neighborhood since we moved in. Should we limit that in some way? There was a little girl screaming last summer here and we nearly called the police until we were able to verify she was okay and was only shrieking during play and not being abducted. So, I think it's a valid issue to discuss, and frankly, house concerts are emerging as a legitimate way for artists to make a living and to build fan bases in the midst of the corporate controlled music industry. With radio either engaging in payola or now claiming they won't play any new music at all, what other options are there?

I also would like to have the ability to use my home however I want as long as local laws are not broken. When I think in terms of local laws, I think of noise ordinances primarily. If people outside our home are not exposed to what goes on inside of it, do others have the right to say what we can and can't do? If we say yes, then we open the door to even more government control of what happens in our own homes. In that respect, I really do see this as a federal issue. In my opinion, if you walk by a house and can't tell what's going on inside (even if you suspect something and don't like the activity), and that activity is not breaking any local or federal laws, then it's none of your business.

Please continue the debate/discussion. I also forwarded this to our friends at the Future of Music Coalition. They are the real political experts on this. They are mulling it over and find it might be an important topic to consider.

Thanks to those who have already chimed in.

Brian

If they're advertising and promoting and selling tickets...

Well....

It's a night club without the B girls..

Sorry...it sure looks that way to me..I'm with the neighbors

I also think it quickly reaches beyond a house concert into any type of gathering of any number of people for any other reason. There are laws about things like signs outside of buildings advertising businesses.. those are clear cut. But how many people do their work from home without having a sign out front? If they aren't zoned for business, should that be stopped too? Seriously.. it's the same type of critical issue. If I pay someone to perform work on my property, couldn't this ALSO be lumped into this debacle?

Either you have rights to do what you want in the privacy of your home or you don't. If there are going to be random enforcements of vague restrictions simply based on when someone feels like complaining, then no one is safe and all sorts of abuses will occur. For example, what if families in a neighborhood feel it's okay to have childrens birthday parties with hired bands, but when someone hires a band to perform at their family function from another race and racist people want to harrass them, they complain and stop them? This is why there needs to be clear cut laws that everyone has to follow and use. And it's why, if there isn't a clear cut law, then no one should be able to be stopped from doing what they want on their own property by neighbors or anyone else, as long as the activity doesn't violate clearly stated laws. If any type of event happens inside, out of site of neighbors, without noise violations, how can that not be permissable? If the guy next door has his office at his home and on occassion other people come to visit that person to do some work or have a meeting, that's a business, How could that be allowed but not a house concert? If a house concert takes place next to that home where a neighbor is conducting another type of work, why should it be banned and not everyone else?

It's too big of a grey area with too much room for abuse based on prejudice or bias or political viewpoint or political correctness for us not to establish a consistent law. I agree with the comment that a Tupperware party definitely constitutes MORE of a business activity than a house concert. At a Pampered Chef party or Amyway meeting there's more profit and business taking place than a house concert. What happens if someone wants to have some religious friends over to observe a religious holiday and the neighbors don't like the religion? Do they call police and have them shut down and fined? What if you want to host a political dinner that allows people to make donations to the party campaign? Should that also be illegal in your home? This is no stretch of imagination at all. It's the same type of problem with the same types of issues.

The more I think of this, the more I believe that a federal case is needed to sort it all out. I also think that if they say no activity that could be construed as a business can take place at a home, then no work of any kind should be legal at home either right? That means that I couldn't even be typing this message boards post. Be careful what you wish for (or worse, endorse and allow to happen), because if they ban something benign like a house concert, tommorow they'll tell you who is allowed to visit your house for any reason at all and how many people you're allowed to invite and what activities you're allowed to conduct in the privacy of your home is next.

Brian

I think I see two differences:

(1) At the birthday party, attendee's are not required to pay admission. At least I hope that's still the case..
(2) I think attendance at birthday parties is pretty much by direct personal invitation.

It seems to me that if house parties were by personal invitation only with donations only requested, there shouldn't be a problem. I'm no lawyer though.

If that's what they are doing, I think a reasonable person would conclude they have a case.

If I was convinced that is what they were doing, I would, on principle, feel that I would have to support them.

Whether I thought they had behaved wisely up to that point and whether I would want to live next to them would be irrelevant.

Most house concerts are exactly that. They are by direct invitation and they are suggested donation (and in most cases, the money never even touches the host but goes directly to the performer). There are exceptions, but that's the standard format for a house concert. It's really no different than even having a backyard cookout for neighbors and friends where you take a collection to pay for the food. It's 100% the same thing. But when people think music is involved, they must be afraid Madonna is performing and making millions.

To me, a house concert is of more value to a community than a birthday party or a cookout. It's bringing some culture to their community, and if done right, some diversity and art. It's a clear double standard and as others have observed, if it really does get heard in federal court, it could really impact far more than house concerts. We're often a society of double standards, but once those are put into law, things could really get ugly.

Brian

Herbie,
You're assuming that this was ONLY about frequency of house concerts. I don't get that from this scenario. Sure, having more of them might have made it more urgent of a complaint, but I doubt the law will have anything to do with how many they had but rather if they are allowed to have them at all.

Also, it's silly to say that people should rotate a house concert. First of all, it's not easy to do well. (I know.. we spent over 300 dollars on food alone as well as having our Indy JPF Chapter coordinator bring and run sound and fortunately I had the keyboard and mic already but most people wouldn't have that. Plus we hosted the artist here in our home and fed him the day before and after the show. Now we WANTED to do that.. and it made it worth him traveling out of his way to come here to do it, but most people could neither pull that off or afford it or even know where to start to make it work). We WAY overspent on food and drinks (but we're known for giving great parties) but that cost pretty much prevented us from being able to another show the next month.. remember I work for free here.. We had our family over so it was like a family party as much as anything which is how we justified the cost.. ) All that said, rotating would be a disaster. Not everyone has the right sized house, the understanding of what would sound good, the experience hosting a lot of people at that type of event, and so on. If artist are going to perform on tour at house concerts, we should make sure they have venues where the presenters know what they are doing. This is sort of like somone wanting to run an internet radio station because they love music, but being harrassed by people because they aren't a licensed public station.

I really think this topic can have far reaching implications.. freedom of speech is only one aspect.. freedom to assemble is a big part.. freedom of government invading your private home is another.. property rights (on both sides of the issue certainly) is another big part of it. I am not at all suggesting that people have a carte blanche right to launch a business in their home that affects their neighbors. In the cases sited, I don't believe any unreasonble burden was placed on neighbors. But I respect that others may disagree. So we need a clearly stated law and then people can either work in context of that law, or work to overturn the law. Right now it's just chaos and any type of bias or prejudice or ill will can cause a big mess for everyone involved.

Brian

PS: We also had to buy 40 chairs, tables and some dishes and other serving items to take care of all those folks. We can use those for all sorts of things, but most people don't have that available at their homes making rotating even more difficult.

Jody

If they are not "Attempting to earn or generate a profit" through "any" service or facility connected in "any" way to the party Then how is this different to any other party that hires a DJ or band to play?

If they are "Attempting to earn or generate a profit" through "any" service or facility connected in "any" way to the party then they are in business.

Sounds more like a plug for the song "Music in my living room" than something that would need to go before a federal court.

JM2c

Well, the reality is that even without charging to make a profit, they're being told they can't do this. That's why the lawsuit. Without the lawsuit, they can't do the concerts anymore.

So what would you suggest? Giving up and not doing concerts? Or suing?

Folks sitting around drinking tea and eating granola and sprouts while some senstive artist gently plucks a guitar and sings songs about the whales...
A few dollars are exchanged between the artist, the host and the guests and everyone goes home flushed with beauty of the evening.

Sure !

Till someone gets the idea that maybe bringing in some avant garde group that plays casio keyboards and does poetry in the
nude.
Then there's too many cars in the street for the neighbors to park..the noise is unbearable and there are naked people rooting like hogs in Mrs. Evans backyard!

We all have been around long enough to know that it's got to go that way at least once in a while.
And suppose some gues gets hurt in the hosts hopuse..falls down the stairs or get ptomenin from the oatmeal cookies?
Is that gonna be covered by the homeowners insurance?..probably not.

Nobody loves a good hippy get together more than I do...but...don't be having these things next door to me !
Rent a little VFW hall like folks have always done for stuff like this..
Heck..my condo has a real nice little entertainment center with naugahyde couches and access to the pool.

It's your for a hundred bucks and a promise to clean up after the party.

Don't we have alot more serious things to worry about in court than this ?

For the first time ever I think, I am quite surprised by your position on this. It would seem that you would be against the government putting rules and restrictions on what can happen inside your house. Especially when the activity is legal (let alone should it violate some ancient sodomy law or perhaps the old local laws on the books still against mixed marriages and other racist notions). I have no problem with noise ordinances being strictly enforced. Of course that should hold equally for house concerts and pool parties and girl scout sing alongs. But if general laws are being followed, I can't imagine allowing a bunch of politicians tell you that you can't have someone play music in your house for your friends and family. You know if they are able to do it, your pet peeve "anti smoking" laws will be soon to follow. If you smoke in your house and have guests over, you will have to provide a special smoking area. Think it's too extreme? I feel the same way about anyone say you can't do something perfectly legal in your own home.

But if that is REALLY what you and others think is right, then lets put it in writing and make it official so that it isn't used simply as a free way to discriminate against anyone you don't like, while allowing it for those you do. And then lets see the government start using that law to discriminate and invade homes even more. For example, what if neighbors simply "suspect" a house concert is going on. Should they be able to break in without a warrant to make sure?

You're the last person I would ever have imagined who would agree with big brother and invasion of privacy and property. But if you think that's the way it should be, then having a law is the right way to go.

I'm not at all against having a few friends over to listen to some music..

But..that's not whaa this is..we can pretend it is..but it's not

It's a publicized event taking place at advertised times in a place that is not licensed for such events.

We cannot escape in these days of litigation gone wild the possibilty for lawsuits.

As I said, there is no shortage of small halls and activity centers that are properly
set up for small events like this.
Why not use them..
Neighborhoods have enough going on..and please..think about what I said about the nature of thesec "concerts"
As long as its one or two people plucking a guitar fopr 10 or 12 people..that's OK.
But we both know that it will lead to more and then the problems WILL arise.

I don't think I'm siding with "Big Brother" at all..I think that's alarmist rhetoric

This is just a realistic look at how things and people are...

Please..give me one good reason why these events can't be held in places desighned to hold them
I was only half kidding about the entertainment room in our condo..It would seat 30 to 50 very comfortably..there's a kitchen, a couple of bathrooms, a fireplace..it's lovely.
I'd much rather see a little concert in there than in anybodys house.
Like I said..for a hundred bucks its yours and we can all go for a swim after the music is over.

What's the problem..

I've had plenty of occasions where a few people got together at my house for some impromptu picking and singing...
But, that's not at all what's being proposed here..

I can see the fifference very clearly..

I'm a bit surprised you can't.

Bob
( Ahippy to be sure, but one that likes to be able to park his car in front of his house and not have to listen to music he don't want to hear when he don't want to hear it) Young

There's so much important stuff to consider...this just seems trivial in todays world.
If there were no venues available other than these homes I'm certain I would feel differently..
But...there are

Heck...let's give those folks a chance to make a few bucks

You've pretty much done it all. Have you ever been hired to play at someone's house for anything? Party.. cocktail mixer.. charity event.. bar-be-que.. anything? How would that be any different than a house concert? Ever played in one of those Chicago mansions? How about a wedding reception in someone's back yard? How could that be okay? Actually, it's far more likely for a problem to break out at something that features alcohol (which most house concerts I have been to don't even have). If you feel that house concerts shouldn't be allowed, then basically neither should any scenario that hires musicians to perform anywhere other than approved licensed music venues. Frankly, I think that is a terrible precedence to set. But that's what you're suggesting.

I've now hosted a house concert and I have attended a few dozen in different cities. The largest I ever saw was 77 people.. and that was far more mellow than the average nightclub on a slow night. I haven't even heard of a house concert with more than 150 people.. (perhaps there are some, I just haven't heard of them) but I have been to HUNDREDS of parties in my life with beer kegs and blasting loud music, and sometimes live bands blasting even louder. That's all okay.. but a house concert is not? What am I missing here? I almost feel like you're totally just pulling my leg on this one. Wouldn't all those other things need to be banned long before a house concert? What about children's birthday parties with 50 little kids yelling and screaming day and night with clowns and petting zoos set up? All those performers are getting paid. Should those be okay? Guests are expected to bring gifts.. the hosts in those cases are actually getting something of value in return.. shouldn't that be banned first?

I could name dozens of other common home activities, all of which are at least potentially just as disruptive or even more likely than any house concert I have been to or heard of. I think perhaps you haven't been to a house concert and are viewing them as something they are not. They aren't beer bashes with drunks falling over each other. They aren't college frat boy parties. Even if the performer was upbeat (like Bob Malone at our home who is one of the finest blues performers I have ever seen) couldn't be heard outside the sliding glass doors in our basement, let alone outside at the neighbors house. I can't imagine how that is more risky to the neighborhood than if I had a pool party or cook out or a big super bowl or new years eve bash with a bunch of people drinking beer.

I hope we're simply picturing 2 very different things because I can't believe you think real house concerts are worse than 99% of the type of parties people have every weekend.. and that you really want everything on that ilk banned by the government and forced into "approved" locations. How about political fundraising dinners? Do they need to be in public halls too? (Yes, many are.. but many smaller local politicians do them in large homes...). I saw a show on C-Span with a senator and a governor having a political dinner/fundraising party in New Hampshire with about 25 people in attendance. That would have to be illegal too.

Brian

I'm not gonna get into a heated eschange on this one..
It all just seems silly to me...

I may have a "house concert" that features some nice little acoustic duo....grooovy !
But then my next door neighbor decides he's gonna have a house concert too..but he like
Ble Sparks From Hell.. a devil worship duo from Montana...can I say no..John..I think that will bring an unhelathy group of people into our neighborhood.."No" he says..." I hate tree huggers and acoustic guitars and you brought them in"

I still see no reason why these little concerts can't be held in the myriad of small venues that are available.
Still waiting for an answer to that.

Let these folks find a place to play...
I didn't move here to have music next door..I could have moved next to a dozen coffee houses or bars if I wanted that.

Gimme clowns anyday!

Bob

And, please, Brian...it's insulting to tell me it seems like I'm "pulling your leg" just cos' I'm disagreeing with you.
This happens to be how I feel...if you don't get it...well...that's too bad..but it's not cos' I'm pulling your leg.

I've got prettier legs to pull at my house!

Bob

Get MIke Dunbar in on this..he's a Libertarian and probably would have lots of good reasons for agreeing with you.

The answer is that it's the same reason that the house parties you are playing can't be held in those same little venues.. because people buy houses sometimes so they can have parties and entertain people. I am unaware of a single house concert on the circuit that charges more than what they give the performer. I know I've never been to one. So how it is different to have a voluntary collection (they're also all voluntary and no one is playing ticket Nazi that I am aware of anywhere) at the party you are playing this summer? It's exactly.. exactly.. exactly.. the same thing. A party.. people eating food.. someone playing music who is getting paid. Is the fact that the pay comes from all the attendees versus just the home owner the issue for you? Does that make it suddently undesirable whereas the party you play at is fine? Do you ever sell CD's at the parties you play? If so, then you're basically already doing a house concert.. you just don't call it that.

Like I said it's really easy for me to come to my opinion on this one..
Where I live the condo association does not allow functions to be held in the homes.
We're all aware of that and we knew it when we moved in..
The clubhouse is in use virtually every weekend ofr birthday parties or whatever.

I don't know why anyone would want to host a house concert anyway..strangers stealing the knick knacks and stepping on my cat.
Not fro me..
My home is my refuge..maybe because I've lived my life in public..
I don't want concerts in myt house...But don't let me discourage you from opening up your house..go ahead !!

But don't be surprised if your neighbor sarts charging an admnission for folks to come in and view his dildo collection...or maybe make a few purchSES.

I'll just suffer thru a life with no house concerts.

I may have this whole bit wrong..

I thought we were talking about a series of events or house concerts at the same location..It's that that I'm against..

If every once in a while you want to have a gathering..like annually or somesuch..that's OK...it's no more out of line than a birthday or graduation party..

My problem is that I see the potential for opening up a can of worms..

The parties I'm doing this summer are once in a great while events..one is a 50th birthday and the other is to welcome a young woman home from school in Europe.

Both are on large estates on the North Shore and I'm assuming all the neighbors are invited.
That's alot different than having a series of events at the same location..
different to me anyway..

I keep telling you, Brian..just agree with me and life gets much easier !

You want to stop your neighbor from having a birthday party for his 8 teenage kids who have birthdays every other month.

Silly to object to house concerts. The house concert format is set up to avoid all the problems that you are describing.
Money (donations) to the performer
invitation only

Being paid to do a wedding or a birthday party is a comercial activity. A house concert isn't.

------------------
Later,

The fact that it's obvious to the complaining neighbor that the house concerts are continuing means that it IS having an impact on the neighborhood. Most likely the biggest impact is parking, not noise. Neighborhoods are not designed to accommodate large numbers of vehicles.

Residential streets are a shared resource. We all feel like we "own" the space in front of our house, but we really don't. It's a public resource shared by the neighborhood. In most cases, it's a give-and-take situation. You come home one night and can't find a place to park your extra car because the neighbor's having a party - big deal. But if it happened *25* times a year (basically every other week), and it affected a dozen neighbore, not just one, then you're talking about a chronic impact on a neighborhood.

I wouldn't object to someone who has ten kids having a birthday party for each child. First of all, most kids are dropped off, so the impact is minimal. But if my neighbor started throwing kegger parties every other week and inviting a group of regulars that took up every space on the block, and collected donations for the beer at the party, I would definitely complain about that use of a residence. If a prayer meeting met on a regular basis at my neighbor's house and the attendence grew to 50 people every time, I'd speak out about that, too. Neighborhoods are not designed to provide public gathering places. We don't like to look at it that way, but it's a just a simple logistical fact.

I think Jody's comment was the most cogent - this stems from people who are unable or unwilling to regulate themselves in a way that takes into consideration their impact on others.

On a side note, I couldn't find any link to the actual cease-and-desist order in any of the provided links, but I only had about 10 minutes to spend on the process. Did anyone else find that link? I'd like to read the order. At this point, I'm hearing a lot about it, but I'm not seeing the actual text of the order.

- James

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You can really only please one songwriter at a time. Might as well be yourself! :^)

Samples of my music at www.soundclick.com/jamesmitchell.htm

I rehearse with a large choir ( 130 people) every Thursday night at a small local church, located in the middle of a residential neighborhood. Our choir is not associated with the church - we rent it for rehearsal. We are given some very specific restrictions on parking, noise on the street late at night, windows opened or closed while the music is playing, etc. Neighbors do have a right to peace and quiet, and visitors have a repsonsibility to be extremely considerate. I am amazed that many people in our society are clueless when it comes to thinking of their neighbors. Obviously, the house concert issue has many veiwpoints...but...what I am trying to say...is that people tend to be more tolerant of disruption in their neighborhood when they feel that every effort is taken to respect the quality of life there. I am proud to say that my choir tries really hard to keep things as quiet as possible...especially when we are leaving late at night....

Unfortunately, we live in a society of people who often feel that the rules and consideration of others does not apply to them; I have been offended to see neighbors on my street fail to notify others when they have large parties or events, or violate parking rules on a regular basis...

Yes, I also agree that just one disgruntled neighbor can cause A LOT of problems. That can seem really unfair, especially you feel that you've done everything to make neighbors happy.

If there are going to be laws passed regulating houise concerts, then they should come down just as hard on excessive garage sales. Many people in Los Angeles run these as a small home business...they buy stuff on a regular basis...and have a sale every weekend.... !!

I have been to many house concerts, and have always felt that their impact on the neighborhood disruption was not any worse than a neighbor holding a party. Should we outlaw parties, too?! How about politial and charitable events, where guests are asked for a donation...just like the house concerts?

Aside from legal issues here, it makes me very sad to think that house concerts could be legally limited and/or prohibited. It was only a few hundred years ago that house concerts were the way music was heard.
That's how "Chamber Music" came about

Anwyay...I know I went on a bit of a rant here...just wanted to throw in my two cents

Emily
emilysanders.net

I had the Zoning board called on me once. When we first bought our house (which is in a residential neighborhood), the previous owner had cows in the back. The fencing and facilities for that are here. We put a horse out back (my mother-in-law's horse, and what a pain to take care of). The same neighbors next door who had lived all these years next to the cows called the Zoning board and complained about the horse. I guess they figured we were new, and so maybe they could get somewhere. So, this guys comes out. Nice guy, very pleasant, but he had no idea about the law and about the fact it was grandfathered in that we could have animals on this property as long as there is not a 12 month break in that...etc. He was just out investigating a complaint, but again, no clue as to who is right or wrong...or what to do about it.

Again, (and I know we can find exceptions to this - like Stu said massage or hair cutting can be home businesses that are banned and do not invite the general public), if you take out inviting the general public via a web site or newspaper articles, then you are really going to have trouble explaining to me how an occasional house concert is any different from an AMWAY, TUPPERWARE, PAPERED CHIEF, you name it party. In fact, for some of these businesses the whole business model is having home parties to transact business. Usually to the benefit in some way of the home owner. A true house concert is not really a business proposition for the home owner, it is a social gathering for friends and acquantances, with paid entertainment. Well, as many people have said, that could apply to a birthday party, a bacherlor party, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, just about anything....

I have been to Russ and Julie's House Concerts. ( They helped pass along the original message here.)

They are the nicest, most thoughtful hosts. I have never seen such strong supporters of the indie musician and writer.

I truly hope that we can all help to preserve the right for nice folks like Russ and Julie - and Cindy - to continue to help songwriters like many of us !!!

Emily
emilysanders.net

Music history is a passion of mine...just had to throw it in!

quote:

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(from Liszt) I would disagree with the concept that you have to truly be causing a distruption or distress on the neighborhood for a neighbor to complain about something. People complain about stupid stuff all the time. And then, the Zoning board feels they have to act, and they may not truly understand the law, or the person complaining may be their friends, or the people running the Zoning board may have no common sense whatsoever

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True. Good point.

quote:

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... then you are really going to have trouble explaining to me how an occasional house concert is any different from an AMWAY, TUPPERWARE, PAPERED CHIEF, you name it party. In fact, for some of these businesses the whole business model is having home parties to transact business.

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But as I understand it, the zoning ordinance involved *doesn't* make a distinction between the house concerts and these activities - they are all not allowed. According to the zoning ordinance (see link above), the only thing allowed is a "no impact home business", which means no additional traffic, pick-ups, or deliveries other than normal residential use. I've run into this when working from home as a computer consultant.

- James

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You can really only please one songwriter at a time. Might as well be yourself! :^)

Samples of my music at www.soundclick.com/jamesmitchell.htm

quote:

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Originally posted by JamesM:
But as I understand it, the zoning ordinance involved *doesn't* make a distinction between the house concerts and these activities - they are all not allowed. According to the zoning ordinance (see link above), the only thing allowed is a "no impact home business", which means no additional traffic, pick-ups, or deliveries other than normal residential use. I've run into this when working from home as a computer consultant.

- James

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They look like they have a concert every month and have been doing so for quite a while. Emily said that they were wonderful hosts. Maybe the real question is - how are they making this work in Oak Park that might help someone in O'Hara Township?

Oak Park has some very strict zoning rules. I know that a church I attended there built a new building and Oak Park attempted to get the building plans amended to remove the steeple on the basis that it constituted a "public eyesore". So Russ & Julie must be doing something right if they're not running afoul of the authorities there.

- James

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You can really only please one songwriter at a time. Might as well be yourself! :^)

You make a very good point about finding out what works for sucessful house concert venues like Russ and Julie's.

Russ and Julie have a long history of hosting many successful house concerts, and they seem to atrract a full house for many of them. I am on their email list, so I frequently hear about a waiting list for seats. When you go to one of their house concerts, they proudly display an extraordinary scrapbook with photos from past concerts.

It would be quite interesting to get their input on this thread.

Emily
emilysanders.net

I strongly disagree with Stu. Birthday parties that hire a clown are EXACTLY the same thing as a house concert that pays the entertainment. Even a lawyer should clearly see that the only possible distinction between the two might be the method of collecting the money to pay the clown/musician. But the intent of the event is exactly the same, and the reality is that often Birthday parties are far more disruptive to a neighborhood than a house concert. Could a house concert be a problem if run by idiots or with rude guests? Sure. So could ANY other gathering of ANY kind where there are more than a few people invited. The impact on a neighborhood is the same for a house concert as a superbowl party or wedding reception or a birthday party or weekly/monthly gathering of any club or society, or scout meeting or (fill in the blank). If the issue that makes it a legal problem for you Stu is not the number of people over, but the fact that some type of money changes hands in some way, then you'd have to consistently limit all other activities with guests exactly the same way. You can't single out JUST house concerts, especially when activities that are OBVIOULSY commercial like Amway or Tupperware or (fill in the blank) take place all the time. Garage sales, in my opinion, go beyond annoying to actual danger because those really DO bring random and often unwanted elements into the neighborhood for VERY commercial reasons. I would think a garage sale would be 100% banned long before you'd even think of a house concert.

Stu has, more than anyone else so far, solidified my opinion that we should support this battle to ensure House Concerts are legal and allowed. I am comfortable with guidelines or restrictions (i.e. no advertising in a local newspaper for example) but if the restrictions don't equally apply to every other activity where outsiders visit someone's home, then it's a double standard backed up by bad law.

http://www.jrp-graphics.com/houseconcerts/ourfaq.html

http://www.jrp-graphics.com/houseconcerts/resources.html

Thought that maybe some folks may find this useful.