What are the terms? Are they free? Per song? We ask people to post any fees (if there are any) upfront on the boards if they are advertising a service.

Thanks,

That is professional advice I pay for.

Would I pay someone to tell me how a song needs to be fixed or re-written?
Nope. I get that here for free everyday and I've been writing long enough to know when someone tells me something is wrong with my tense/storyline/context etc.

but even if they do, I can disagree and ignore them or I can say.. that's a good point but not strong enough for me to change that line.. etc.

p.s. I'm extremely nervous everytime I get up on stage to sing my songs.
but it never ceases to amaze me... how the room goes quiet.......or how the room erupts in applause. And it's all free!

Redwriter1,

You must not have clicked on Charlie's website link at the bottom of his post before posting your reply.

You might be interested in finding out "who" you were replying to. I suspect your reply might have taken a different tone if you had known the creditials who you were talking to.

And Charlie,

I'm pleased to hear you are now critiqing lyrics as well as complete songs. I just sent two songs to a demo studio with the intent of sending the completed demos to you for critiquing when I get the finished product. I still will, but it's nice to know I can now "run them by you" prior to investing in a full demo first.

Much appreciate your efforts to help unknown songwriters grow. I know you're always looking for extreme talent. Have you heard any of Scott Hisley's work? His website has one of his songs that automatically starts playing when you arive at the site.

If you're looking for a future star, look now further than:

http://www.LuculentMusic.com

Thanks,

I have had the distinct and genuine pleasure of knowing Charlie for a couple of years now.
He is a gentleman, a friend and a very talented and prolific songwriter...excuse me; professional songwriter, ie. hit writer.
He has well over 250 cuts.

He also has a well deserved reputation for spotting and helping to develop young talent, from Alan Jackson to Chris Young.

We are very grateful that Charlie not only came out to Pineyfest and performed some of his hits for us on a "less than optimal" sound system, he also prised the lovely Brittany Allyn away from Lorrie Morgan long enough to sing harmony with him.

By all means, buy a copy of his autobiography which will be out in about a month. Maybe he'll have some stories in there about his days as a writer for Dolly Parton, or the times when Conway Twitty "opened" for him.

Go to a record store and pick up the top ten selling country albums, turn them over and check the writing credits. Then do a Billboard search for five years ago, ten years ago, fifteen years...yep, there's Charlie, every time.

Whether you think it is worth your twenty dollars for this man to take time from his hectic schedule to do a critique of your song is your choice to make. The schedule is indeed hectic. Charlie is still keeping a "full book" of cowriting appointments every week.

I suppose it would depend on your goal. If your goal is successful songwriting in Nashville, then I would definately recommend Charlie Craig.

dawg

So, Charlie, I hope you don't think I was speaking of "you" personally (smile).

As is well-noted on music row, many many hit songs have been turned down by publishers, producers and record labels only later to become #1 hit songs and career making singles. I guess I'm just at the point where if someone wants to give me their opinion of a song they will, if they don't, that's ok too.

I started out by getting a lot of good free advice and critiques from Jason Blume at BMI during his monthly Demo Derby's. I not only got his opinion but also that of 20 other writer's that attend those things. (he doesn't do them anymore, sadly).

I think Charlie is enough of a professional to know that I was not trying to "dis" him in anyway.
Let's not be so "defensive" here people.!! LOL

It would be ill advised for anyone to send a complete stranger their music for a critique from someone they don't even have a name for. If you want to post your name, web address, background etc.. and your offer, then fine. People can then make an informed decision. We ask everyone to give their info upfront, including on this post with Charlie which they did.

Also, I sent you a press kit back in January per your instructions. Did it get lost? lol

Thanks

quote:

---

Originally posted by just_me:
Hey Charlie,
I was wondering if you had any info on McClure & Trowbridge Publishing. I sent out a lot of songs to a lot of different publishers awhile ago and this particular publisher sent me a response showing interest in a couple of my songs. After researching George McClure, I'm a little aprehensive about his set-up. Any input?

Also, I sent you a press kit back in January per your instructions. Did it get lost? lol

Thanks

Eric Harris
just ran across this one too.......lol

---

Ok Eric, I'm convinced now. I too was having a lot of troulbe understanding the songwriter/publisher agreements with McClure & Trowbridge. In fact, as I understood it, when you submit a song to them they consider it as part of their publishing catalog. You can submit your song other places but the interested part must go through McClure&Trowbridge since they own the song.

If anyone else has a different understanding of this relationship, please correct me.

personally I don't have a problem with paying for critiques, It's much better to spend $15 - $25 on a critique than spending $250 - $1,000 getting a song demoed that has FLAWS or isn't worth demoing.

While I haven't received a critique from Charlie, so I haven't worked with him personally but I am aware of his success in getting cuts and
if he's done something that you hope to do he probably has some valuable advice to offer.

"if he has ever paid to have a song reviewed?"
I would think no he probably hasn't paid to have his songs reviewed but yes he has paid to have his songs critiqued, in the sense that he's been a staff writer and given up his publishing on songs to receive feedback on his songs. It's not so much a review as it is, feed back or critiques.

I also recommend getting feedback from your peers, JPF has a excellent and active Lyric and MP3 critique boards.

The goal with all this is to continually upgrade our ability to critique our own songs.

I was at a workshop
JPF mentor Steve Seskin said
I've written over 800 songs
from the first 200
there's 5 to 10 that
I like and would still play
from the next 200
there's 20 to 25 that
I like and would still play
from the next 200
there's 30 to 40
and in the last 200
there's 125

so as you write more songs over the years
you hopefully sharpen your skills

There are plenty of rip offs out there in the world, but I don't think Charlie Craig's critiques is one of them.

------------------
Ande Rasmussen
AndeRasmussen@aol.com
www.soundclick.com/anders

Last but not least, it just really rubs me the wrong way when someone appoints themselves 'Song God" and has the nerve to say "You pay me and I'll give you my opinion", key word here: "Opinion", that's all it is and it's no different from the housewife in Kansas, if she likes a song she likes it, she may love your song while Charlie may not .. and who's going to be be listening and buying? Not Charlie.

I lean towards the "don't bother to pay for a critique" side, because I have found, like the poster before me, that regardless of the track record of a given person, they can be right and they can be wrong.

Sure, the opinion of a person that has had hit records and experience in the industry is usually a more valid opinion than somebody who just chimes in on internet boards with no track record, but...

Even the pros are way off most times, and every hit record out there has had several industry savants take a pass on it.

The anecdotes are endless, from the Decca execs who passed on the Beatles to Doris Day who, upon finishing her scene of singing 'Que Sera, Sera' in 'The Man Who Knew Too Much', said: "that's the last time anyone will listen to THAT song!", to Burt Bacharach saying "That's going nowhere!" when he heard the Carpenter's rendition of "Close To You".

I have even had experiences where an artist and their manager gave short shrift to a given song, and then six months later raved about it. And from the stories I've heard about other songwriters, this is no singular phenomenon.

Rank tyros who are looking to avail themselves of the superior experience of industry pros would do well to stop, look, and listen (and perhaps pay for that privilege).

But after a writer has reached a certain level of competence in his/her art, success becomes more of a lottery than a matter of further refinement, and opinions are something to sweep or keep, no matter the experience of the giver.

It does not really matter if it is only one person's opinion. If you get advice that YOU feel improves your song, then it is probably worth the money. And the fact that 10 people could offer 10 different opinions is irrelevant. There is no right or wrong in opinions. If Henrry Mancini thinks one thing and Burt Bacharach another, is one of them wrong and the other right?

Is it a ripoff for a struggling guitar player to pay a professional guitar player to help him? Or a golfer or a singer? Of course not.

There are songsharks in the water who will ask you for money and promise you the world. If you contact a "publisher" who says they will review your song for $X, just hang up. He is a thief. But, guys like Charlie, Jason Blume, Rick Beresford and others, are most certainly NOT scam artists. They are professionals who offer a professional service for a reasonable price.

But it's not for everyone.

Well, they can't both be right!

If one person says: "this movie stinks!", and then the movie goes on to win nearly universal praise from professional critics, several Academy Awards and box-office upwards of $200 million, then the odds are that, yes, the "this movie stinks" opinion was not exactly one worth considering.

quote:

---

Originally posted by RobertK:
[b]If Henrry Mancini thinks one thing and Burt Bacharach another, is one of them wrong and the other right?

Well, they can't both be right!

---

Nice dodge.

quote:

---

If one person says: "this movie stinks!", and then the movie goes on to win nearly universal praise from professional critics, several Academy Awards and box-office upwards of $200 million, then the odds are that, yes, the "this movie stinks" opinion was not exactly one worth considering.

---

The person who said the movie stinks has a valid opinion. VALID...not right or wrong! There is no right or wrong.

I beg you not to try to drag out that tired old thing about 40 gazillion fans can't be wrong. Of course they are not wrong. Nor are they right. They merely express an opinion. A popular one at that. So what? "The Matrix" is certainly a popular movie, and I read (unbelievably) several glowing reviews. I thought it was a convoluted, boring pile of crap that relied on cliched special effects and exhibited not a shred of intelligence. Am I wrong? Nope. Am I right? Nope. Just an opinion.

A $200 million dollar box office means approximately 20 million people paid to see a movie. Let's be generous and say 50 million. That leaves around 250 million who didn't bother. What about their opinions?

If you really believe that popular acceptance invalidates opposite opinions, then I wish you luck. And, if you really believe that critical acclaim and awards (god help us all) invalidate opposite opinion, then I'll see you at the Grammys, where the "popular" flavors-of-the-year line up for their booty. Can anyone say Milli Vanilli?

Then, of course, we must consider the flip side of your POV, which is that those fans whose favorite artists FAIL to achieve enormous popularity, critical acclaim and awards own opinions that are "not...worth considering."

Seriously, if Charlie wants to charge for his critiques, more power to him. He certainly has great credentials and he writes wonderful songs. There is also something to be said for sending a song in for a one-on-one critique without a whole net full of people reading about your writing problems.

Many songwriting books say not to pay for critiquing, but they charge for the book. If you think Charlie's opinion is worth something, (and based on his excellent writing, I'm sure it is), then there's nothing wrong with paying for it. On the other side of the coin, there is nothing wrong with not wanting to pay for a critique either.

Truman's got it dead on.

Mike

quote:

---

Originally posted by TrumanCoyote:
Good debate. Bottom line: If you don't think a pro critique has value for you, don't buy. If you do, go for it. And if you think that the advice you get on boards like this and from local song circles and the like is as helpful and as valuable as the advice you might get from a pro, then keep doing what you are doing. $20 worth of good advice from a $20 critique seems like a fair deal to me.

It does not really matter if it is only one person's opinion. If you get advice that YOU feel improves your song, then it is probably worth the money. And the fact that 10 people could offer 10 different opinions is irrelevant. There is no right or wrong in opinions. If Henrry Mancini thinks one thing and Burt Bacharach another, is one of them wrong and the other right?

Is it a ripoff for a struggling guitar player to pay a professional guitar player to help him? Or a golfer or a singer? Of course not.

There are songsharks in the water who will ask you for money and promise you the world. If you contact a "publisher" who says they will review your song for $X, just hang up. He is a thief. But, guys like Charlie, Jason Blume, Rick Beresford and others, are most certainly NOT scam artists. They are professionals who offer a professional service for a reasonable price.

But it's not for everyone.

[This message has been edited by TrumanCoyote (edited 02-01-2004).]

---

Here's the last thing I'll say on the subject...

Like it or not you already know if you have what it takes to be a professional songwriter. If you question it, chances are very good you don't have what it takes. Nothing wrong with being an amateur, as a matter of fact everything is right about it, but why pay good money if you have no desire to ever profit from your songwriting? and if you do want to profit, you must know inside you have the goods and don't need to shell out money to have other people tell you their opinion. There are thousands of tools at your disposal for free, loads of free info all over the Internet, you couldn't possibly locate it all in a lifetime of searching. You need help with lyrics? It's out there for FREE, you need help with story telling? it's all out there, just google away! There are no rules and some of the best songs ever written are by people who simply went with their gut, probably most of the best songs. It's all about YOU, the most satisfying thing is working it out for yourself, not having someone else tell you the way "they" would do things.. and charge you in addition.

My Dad used to tell me "if it doesn't feel right, it isn't." Paying someone to listen to your songs doesn't feel right to me.

"Opinions are the cheapest commodities on earth. Everyone has a flock of opinions ready to be wished upon anyone who will accept them. If you are influenced by "opinions" when you reach DECISIONS, you will not succeed in any undertaking."

"If you are influenced by the opinions of others, you will have no DESIRE of your own. Keep your own counsel, when you begin to put into practice the principles described here, by reaching your own decisions and following them. Take no one into your confidence"

"You have a brain and mind of your own. USE IT, and reach your own decisions. If you need facts or information from other people, to enable you to reach decisions, as you probably will in many instances; acquire these facts or secure the information you need quietly, without disclosing your purpose"

Napolean Hill

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Dunbar:
I'll tell you my opinion about charging for a song critique. Just send me a self-addressed stamped envelope with a check for $5. Just kidding.

Seriously, if Charlie wants to charge for his critiques, more power to him. He certainly has great credentials and he writes wonderful songs. There is also something to be said for sending a song in for a one-on-one critique without a whole net full of people reading about your writing problems.

Many songwriting books say not to pay for critiquing, but they charge for the book. If you think Charlie's opinion is worth something, (and based on his excellent writing, I'm sure it is), then there's nothing wrong with paying for it. On the other side of the coin, there is nothing wrong with not wanting to pay for a critique either.

Truman's got it dead on.

Mike

---

I wouldn't suggest buying any songwriting books either, The Songwriters market is a promotional tool, not a "how to" book. Mr. Craig's writing ability and expertise on critiquing others are all debatable. I know many of his songs and I like a few, but in all honesty I've heard a few songwriters out here and on other sites who write better songs, in my opinion. I'm not here to knock his songwriting, he's long established he can write a song, I'm just wondering why one so successful would be hitting the songwriters sites pushing critiques for a price. It seems strange to me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by LoriAnnderson:
"Opinions are the cheapest commodities on earth. Everyone has a flock of opinions ready to be wished upon anyone who will accept them. If you are influenced by "opinions" when you reach DECISIONS, you will not succeed in any undertaking."

---

Now THAT is fascinating! A guy giving his opinion that opinions are worthless.

quote:

---

"If you are influenced by the opinions of others, you will have no DESIRE of your own."

---

Another opinion. Another conundrum. Does the author expect readers to accept his opinion as fact?

Lori's opinions are well-stated. But I think she is ignoring that fact that writing is a process. It somethimes takes years and years to make the journey from beginner to expert. I agree that a person with years of songwriting experience is probably less likely to need advice and critiques. But a beginner can profit from just about anything, and does not possess the self-knowledge that Lori so eloquently described.

Opinion, backed up by knowledge and experience, can be one of the most important resources to any artist.

You can get free opinions, and they may be good or helpful. You can pay for opinions, and they may be good or helpful. Saying either is no good or of no avail, in my opinion, simplistic.

Mike

Having someone like Charlie seems like a good "reality check" especially for $20.00 bucks!

I look to the folk's on the MP3 forum for general "appeal"-or not. But I realize that most are not into the genre that I write in, (country). Having an industry "pro", who is envolved with my specific genre of choice is a God send!

Charlie, I sent a song off this morning titled "Just My Mind" that should be there by the end of the week, along with a $20.00 money order. I figure I'll go an extra 2 weeks before I change strings on my guitar to make up for it!

Cute: there is no right or wrong, but there is validity/invalidity... I think I'll leave that one for Hegel to ponder.

In my opinion, it's a very good idea for kids to finish high school, but then one can parade out the case of Walt Disney and say "aw, don't bother with school".

An equally valid opinion?

Let others gamble that their kid is the next Walt Disney. Mine are going to school.

Aaaah, but I did not say there is validity/invalidity. It is precisely my point that there are NO invalid opinions in matters of art. De gustibus non est disputandum. Lots of critics and music lovers think that Cage is brilliant. Lots also think that he makes obnoxious noises. Which group is "right?"

Your school example is nice, but not very pertinent to this discussion. I suppose there is data that identifies the differences in accomplishments of those who finish school and those who do not. If one's position is backed by empirical data, then it is no longer a matter of opinion; it becomes a matter of fact.

If a guys says, "It is may opinion that today is Saturday," then he is clearly incorrect. But, the day of the week is not a matter of opinion, is it? It is a matter of fact, and it does not make a difference how often and how energetically the guy repeats his "opinion."

I think we have so thoroughly bought into the old "everyone-is-entitled-to-his-opinion" concept that we have lost our focus on just exactly what constitutes an opinion.

I am willing to admit that some opinion (e.g. you shouldn't kill; you should keep the proper amount of air in your tires...) is so preponderant that any opposing opinion could be called wrong or invalid. However, in matters of popular culture, it just does not work. Conventional wisdom does NOT negate unconventional wisdom. In fact, history has so many instances of conventional wisdom being turned on its ear, one should be careful about calling it more or less valid than anythng else.

And please don't get me started on the Grammys. Milli Vanilli was just the most egregious example of NARAS's habit of pulling those little gramophones out of their rectums.

At any rate, we will not be able to convince each other, so I will leave it right here, with this thought: it is fun--maybe even valuable--to debate an issue with someone who pleads his case intelligently, keeps it civil, and doesn't get all bent out of shape.

Until the next time....

The latter!