The 60's were a time when everthing got turned upside down. Many of that generation, especially artists, just expressed openly what others had secretly thought or wondered about. When Bob did that in song ( and he wasn't the only songwriter to do that) people who felt the same way he did or who asked the same questions he did, embraced his music and chose to use his songs as anthems for causes they were involved in. Historians made him a "voice" of the generation. But he wasn't a spokesperson for anyone but himself. His ideals sometimes coincided with those of various groups or "movements" but he was always an individualist. He went through evolutionary phases just like everyone else does and some of his music is a record of those changes. He does have a lot of songs which draw attention to the negative things humanity is involved in like war, social status, injustice, the devaluing of people and so forth. (If you look through his entire body of work, you will find plenty of them.) He also has a lot of songs which have no depth at all. Just words and melody which sound cool together and are neat to sing.

I think he deserves a place in music history. I think he was an innovator. I don't think he should receive the Nobel prize for being the voice of a generation since he says himself, that he wasn't that. He was just his own voice. And I know some people like his singing but if he weren't Bob Dylan, I certainly wouldn't listen to it. Come to think of it, I rarely listen to him anyway. I do sing his songs though. I like a lot of them.

[This message has been edited by AKA JeanB (edited 10-18-2004).]

There is nothing condescending, and thus, nothing hypocritical, in my remrk. You took a veiled potshot at a whole world of people with whom you do not agree. You did so by implying that they are all in some arbitrary category, and that you possess some superior knowledge of the subject. My comment to you is not veiled at all. I think you don't get it, and I said so. I am not hiding or being coy. No hypocrisy here. (BTW, I really enjoyed your "pot-to-kettle" routine. You should re-read it).

I also think it is plain foolish to compare disparate styles of music, and then group the practitioners into arbitrary "tiers." Mozart's genius is irrefutable, but it is unlikely that he could have written effectively for the NY stage as effectively as the Gershwins, or that he could have connected with the youth of the 1960's with simple, focused folk songs as did Dylan. You may create whatever tiers you like, but they don't have any universal validity at all.

Why is it necessary to disparage one person's music because you prefer another's? One theory is that it is simple elitism, but I don't know you well enough to make that stick.

quote:

---

Originally posted by AKA JeanB:
I don't personally perceive Dylan as someone who changed the world with his music (lyrics) which is what the Nobel prize is supposed to be for.

---

Perhaps he did not "change the world." I suppose it depends on how you define it. He certainly changed popular music in a profound way. Maybe you had to hve been an active music fan pre-Dylan and post-Dylan to appreciate the impact. I don't know. At the time, I was deeply involved in music as a fan and as a player. When a friend introduced me to Dylan, I knew I was listening to something staggeringly new and important. It knocked me for a loop.

He is not my favorite. But I certainly consider him to be one of the top 5 or 10 songwriters of the last half of the 20th century. Sometimes he is hard to listen to. Some of his later stuff is not too special...to me, anyways. But the stuff he was creating in the mid 60's DID change something. Me, for instance.

One thing for sure; Dylan is not for everyone. I certainly think he deserves a Nobel as much as Maya Angelou did.

I think it's so groovy now
That people are finally getting together
I thinks it's so wonderful and how
That people are finally getting together
Reach out in the darkness
Reach out in the darkness
Reach out in the darkness
And you may find a friend

I knew a man that I did not care for
And then one day this man gave me a call
We sat and talked about things on our mind
And now this man he is a friend of mine
Don't be afraid of love
Don't be afraid, don't be afraid to love
Everybody needs a little love
Everybody needs somebody
That they can be thinking of

Love is but the song we sing,
Fear's the way we die,
You can make the mountains ring,
Make the angels cry,
Know the dove is on the wing,
You need not know why,
Come on people now,
Smile on your brother,
Everybody get together,
Try to love one another right now,

Some may come and some may go,
We will surely pass,
When the One that left us here,
Returns for us at last,
We are but a moment's sunlight,
Fading on the grass,
Come on people now,
Smile on your brother,
Everybody get together,
Try to love one another right now,

You who hear these words I sing,
You will understand,
You hold the key to love and fear,
All in your trembling hand,
Just one key unlocks them both,
It's there at your commmand,
Come one people now,
Smile on your brother,
Everybody get together,
Try to love one another right now.

No one deserved it more than Mrt. Carter.

Bob

I don't know if Dylans work changed the world...I do know it cvhanged the musical landscape...dramatically..
He certainly was not the first to feature political themes in popular music..but he put acoustic guitars into millions of new hands and electric guitars into millions of other hands.

Whether songs of social relevance make a difference or not in the long run..for a time..he was father to alot of us.

Not his choice, mind you...

He always wanted to be Little Richard !

Dylan's lyrics, to me, are just that...lyrics. I say this because they are released to the public on musical recordings. Some are topical, some are traditional. He's not my favorite lyricist, but he's written songs that are among my favorites.

My favorite lyricist is a fellow named Richard Dobson. He's a little more "down to earth" than Dylan...Nanci Griffith called Richard the "Hemingway of country music."

Dylan's emergence in the sixties causes him to be connected with that era, but he's sold well since.

Will he go down in history as a poet of consequence? Perhaps, but I tend to doubt it. Do I find his music on par with the greats? No, I think it's at best, pretty good. But his singing, however has had an amazing impact on Western popular music. John Lennon, John Prine, Mark Knopfler, Bruce Springsteen, and Tom Petty, to name a few, were all directly affected by his singing style. Hardly a writer's night goes by without someone sounding Dylanesque ("Dylanesque" itself is a commonly used description for a type of singing, phrasing, and songwriting.)

Some of his lyrics were politically and socially descriptive. These days of American political acrimony beyond, I believe, even those of the sixties...perhaps unmatched since the eighteen sixties...any assesment of his work will often be seen through the filter of ideology. Perhaps the future will be kind to him as it has been to Stephen Foster, whose work was conversely thought racist and tolerant, or Richard Wagner, whose opinions were long fused to his musical legacy.

Or maybe not.

All the Best,
Mike

oh...and Mike,..... I seem to recall you saying that Jim Post had been a friend of yours. That song Reach Out in the Darkness has been a favorite for years. And I have often quoted those four lines from the second stanza. "I knew a man....."

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Dunbar:
Keep fighting, and next I post Kumbaya.

---

Okay...okay. I'll stop. I swear.

Yeah, Jim's an old buddy of mine. I just spoke with him a few weeks ago. He and his ex, Cathy Conn, were called "Friend and Lover" (I later played in a band with Cathy called the Night Owls.) Their song Reach Out of the Darkness got high up the charts at a time when some pretty heavy bands were dominating. I used to play shows with them at the old It's Here coffeehouse in Chicago while "Reach Out" was climbing the charts.

Jim is the most dynamic single-act performer I've ever seen. He sold out the old AmazingGrace Coffeehouse in Evanston Illinois for every performance while booked there weeks at a time. He held their attendance record beating out Steve Goodman, John Prine, and Asleep at the Wheel.

Jim currently lives in Galena Illinois and tours the area with his one-man show "Mark Twain and the Laughing River." He has an astounding vocal range and a very moving, expressive delivery. If you ever get a chance, do yourself a favor and hear him live. Barring that, try to find one of his old recordings on Fantasy Records. Jim's one of the great unknowns.

All the Best,
Mike

P.S.
Truman,

someone's watching you...Kumbaya

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Dunbar:

P.S.
Truman,

someone's watching you...Kumbaya

---

Not another word. Honest.

Here's a good story. When my daughter was in 2nd grade, her elementary school started a policy of playing music in the cafeteria during lunch. This was touted as a reward for good behavior. Our daughter did not seem too impressed with this new policy. So we mentioned how nice is was of the principal to allow them to listen to music during lunch.

Her reply: "Yeah...'Kumbaya.' Big whoop."