Does Bob Dylan write songs with memorable lyrics, or poetry set to music?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/10/sunday/main648439.shtml

Does anyone have any comments?

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Ande Rasmussen
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Some of his stuff is just so genius. As for what it is, well, it's songs. Story songs. Call it what you may.

Some of the early stuff, I wonder if it was drug-induced. He's genius, I'm sure, even without drugs but some of it, I assume was drug-induced.

He's obviously a decent songwriter in that he had several songs hit with other artists, but...

Nobel prize? Literature? I'd like to know who did the nominating. Maybe the same folks who listed "Imagine" as the best song of the past 50 years?

I think the lion's share of his lionization is a 'cult of personality' thing and I don't imagine him anywhere near the level of a Webber, Wilson, Gershwin, Porter, Bacharach, Mercer, or even Townshend for that matter (and before you dismiss the latter, remember that he has composed songs that have sustained two major motion pictures and a Tony award-winning Broadway musical, the latter being, for me, a hallmark of songcraft).

So, while Dylan has his fans from those still alive from the sixties and a certain "Rolling Stone establishment" critical acclaim, I really don't see him or his music being remembered 100 years from now.

But high schools and local theatres will still be performing things like Music Man, Kiss Me Kate, and Tommy.

Dylan is one of my role models, because he's one of a relatively few people who have been able to make it in the music business not being able to sing or play an instrument very well. All he had going for him was his words. (Same was true of John Prine, Steve Goodman, Leonard Cohen, and a few others.) I'm kind of in the same boat--can't sing, can't play good. All *I* have is the words. Dylan, et al., hold out hope that one day I, too, may be able to do what they did.

I just don't like the way he sings today. Or at least the way he sang when I saw him a few years ago. You don't get to hear the lyrics.

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Marty listen here

I'm certainly a fan of the great writers of bygone times...
The Gershwins..Cole Porter...my own personal hero, Irving Berlin.

But....I really think history will have a place for Bob Dylan while the likes of Andrew Lloyd (never had an original thought) Webber will rate but a footnote.
Just my opinion...but...consider this.

I got into the performing end of show business over 40 years ago.
Among the first songs I sang for pay were some very early Dylan songs.
Last Saturday night, I was singing at a very expensive wedding for two very rich young kids.
Their first dance was "Forever Young"...a Bob Dylan song.
Throughout the various stages of my career one of the constants has been the presence of Bob Dylan songs.

I think his work ranges from the silly and playful to the exquisite, with layers of meanings in the lyrics.
One of Bobs overlooked abilities is his wonderful sense of rhythmic flow..dropping those notes in just the right place...it's one of the things that make, for me at least, his near missing the right notes palatable.

I love his singing..what can I say ?

I stopped playing songs backwards to find hidden meanings a very long time ago, but Dylans words leave me satisfied.

So...is it poetry ?...sometimes, yes, I think it is.
But, more important..does it work ?

Yes..for me, almost every time.

I enjoyed Bob Dylan when I first heard him, on a tinny little record player at a party after a gig about 40 years ago.

This morning I listened to Blood on the Tracks in my car as I was getting cat food.
I enjoyed the listen today as well..

The other night we were playing some music by The Band and did a couple of Dylan songs that the Band recorded
That was fun too...

I think 'Ol Bob has done all right for himself, and if I ever get to meet him, I'll say thanks.

So...Poetry ?...Heck...I don't know enough about poetry to make an educated comment...but..I do know a little about lyrics...and yes..yes I think he is a great lyricist.(and composer to boot)

Bob Young

I dunno...

Not all lyrics stand up to your recitation test...

I would offer..let's see..."Hound Dog"..a pretty successful song..but a recitation...I dunno, Cobber...

Wild Thing...poetry ?hmmmmmmmmm...

I gotta disagree with your theory that all verse can be sung..

It depends on what you mean by "sung"..

You can fashion a melody to a page in the telephone book...but...that's kind of like saying rhyming words and a melody constitute a "song"..

In the literal sense..maybe so..in the factual sense...nt necessarily

Sorry to disagree with the wisest man in Esperance..
But...I am the wisest man in this house..so...I'll take a shot !

Bob

My love she speaks like silence,
Without ideals or violence,
She doesn't have to say she's faithful,
Yet she's true, like ice, like fire.
People carry roses,
Make promises by the hours,
My love she laughs like the flowers,
Valentines can't buy her.

In the dime stores and bus stations,
People talk of situations,
Read books, repeat quotations,
Draw conclusions on the wall.
Some speak of the future,
My love she speaks softly,
She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all.

The cloak and dagger dangles,
Madams light the candles.
In ceremonies of the horsemen,
Even the pawn must hold a grudge.
Statues made of match sticks,
Crumble into one another,
My love winks, she does not bother,
She knows too much to argue or to judge.

The bridge at midnight trembles,
The country doctor rambles,
Bankers' nieces seek perfection,
Expecting all the gifts that wise men bring.
The wind howls like a hammer,
The night blows cold and rainy,
My love she's like some raven
At my window with a broken wing.

Copyright © 1965; renewed 1993 Special Rider Music

Nobody feels any pain
Tonight as I stand inside the rain
Ev'rybody knows
That Baby's got new clothes
But lately I see her ribbons and her bows
Have fallen from her curls.
She takes just like a woman, yes, she does
She makes love just like a woman, yes, she does
And she aches just like a woman
But she breaks just like a little girl.

Queen Mary, she's my friend
Yes, I believe I'll go see her again
Nobody has to guess
That Baby can't be blessed
Till she sees finally that she's like all the rest
With her fog, her amphetamine and her pearls.
She takes just like a woman, yes, she does
She makes love just like a woman, yes, she does
And she aches just like a woman
But she breaks just like a little girl.

It was raining from the first
And I was dying there of thirst
So I came in here
And your long-time curse hurts
But what's worse
Is this pain in here
I can't stay in here
Ain't it clear that--

I just can't fit
Yes, I believe it's time for us to quit
When we meet again
Introduced as friends
Please don't let on that you knew me when
I was hungry and it was your world.
Ah, you fake just like a woman, yes, you do
You make love just like a woman, yes, you do
Then you ache just like a woman
But you break just like a little girl.

Hurricane ....Bob Dylan

Pistol shots ring out in the barroom night
Enter Patty Valentine from the upper hall.
She sees the bartender in a pool of blood,
Cries out, "My God, they killed them all!"
Here comes the story of the Hurricane,
The man the authorities came to blame
For somethin' that he never done.
Put in a prison cell, but one time he could-a been
The champion of the world.

Three bodies lyin' there does Patty see
And another man named Bello, movin' around mysteriously.
"I didn't do it," he says, and he throws up his hands
"I was only robbin' the register, I hope you understand.
I saw them leavin'," he says, and he stops
"One of us had better call up the cops."
And so Patty calls the cops
And they arrive on the scene with their red lights flashin'
In the hot New Jersey night.

Meanwhile, far away in another part of town
Rubin Carter and a couple of friends are drivin' around.
Number one contender for the middleweight crown
Had no idea what kinda shit was about to go down
When a cop pulled him over to the side of the road
Just like the time before and the time before that.
In Paterson that's just the way things go.
If you're black you might as well not show up on the street
'Less you wanna draw the heat.

Alfred Bello had a partner and he had a rap for the cops.
Him and Arthur Dexter Bradley were just out prowlin' around
He said, "I saw two men runnin' out, they looked like middleweights
They jumped into a white car with out-of-state plates."
And Miss Patty Valentine just nodded her head.
Cop said, "Wait a minute, boys, this one's not dead"
So they took him to the infirmary
And though this man could hardly see
They told him that he could identify the guilty men.

Four in the mornin' and they haul Rubin in,
Take him to the hospital and they bring him upstairs.
The wounded man looks up through his one dyin' eye
Says, "Wha'd you bring him in here for? He ain't the guy!"
Yes, here's the story of the Hurricane,
The man the authorities came to blame
For somethin' that he never done.
Put in a prison cell, but one time he could-a been
The champion of the world.

Four months later, the ghettos are in flame,
Rubin's in South America, fightin' for his name
While Arthur Dexter Bradley's still in the robbery game
And the cops are puttin' the screws to him, lookin' for somebody to blame.
"Remember that murder that happened in a bar?"
"Remember you said you saw the getaway car?"
"You think you'd like to play ball with the law?"
"Think it might-a been that fighter that you saw runnin' that night?"
"Don't forget that you are white."

Arthur Dexter Bradley said, "I'm really not sure."
Cops said, "A poor boy like you could use a break
We got you for the motel job and we're talkin' to your friend Bello
Now you don't wanta have to go back to jail, be a nice fellow.
You'll be doin' society a favor.
That sonofabitch is brave and gettin' braver.
We want to put his ass in stir
We want to pin this triple murder on him
He ain't no Gentleman Jim."

Rubin could take a man out with just one punch
But he never did like to talk about it all that much.
It's my work, he'd say, and I do it for pay
And when it's over I'd just as soon go on my way
Up to some paradise
Where the trout streams flow and the air is nice
And ride a horse along a trail.
But then they took him to the jailhouse
Where they try to turn a man into a mouse.

All of Rubin's cards were marked in advance
The trial was a pig-circus, he never had a chance.
The judge made Rubin's witnesses drunkards from the slums
To the white folks who watched he was a revolutionary bum
And to the black folks he was just a crazy ****** .
No one doubted that he pulled the trigger.
And though they could not produce the gun,
The D.A. said he was the one who did the deed
And the all-white jury agreed.

Rubin Carter was falsely tried.
The crime was murder "one," guess who testified?
Bello and Bradley and they both baldly lied
And the newspapers, they all went along for the ride.
How can the life of such a man
Be in the palm of some fool's hand?
To see him obviously framed
Couldn't help but make me feel ashamed to live in a land
Where justice is a game.

Now all the criminals in their coats and their ties
Are free to drink martinis and watch the sun rise
While Rubin sits like Buddha in a ten-foot cell
An innocent man in a living hell.
That's the story of the Hurricane,
But it won't be over till they clear his name
And give him back the time he's done.
Put in a prison cell, but one time he could-a been
The champion of the world.

Copyright © 1975 Ram's Horn Music

I don't particularly care (and therefore won't criticize) whether Dylan gets a Nobel Prize for literature; I wouldn't expect it to change what he writes or wrote. The only person I particularly care whether gets a Nobel Prize, frankly, is me--and I'm not holding my breath waiting...

The Universal Soldier
Blowin' In the Wind

are two which come to mind. I'm sure there are more. Just can't think of them at the moment.

LYric Police.....

That's right Sis...pull over, get out of the car and assume the position !

Universal Soldier was not Dylan !

Buffy Saint Marie...

OK...OK...

Now get back in your car and try to be careful out there.

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I also think it's possible you are not giving enough credit to Dylan for shaking things up. He wrote about STUFF. Not just I love you, you love me.

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OOOOhhhh... STUFF you say? Well... that makes a WORLD of difference! What COULD I have been thinking?

I'm sure things like "Hurricane", "All Along The Watchtower" and "The Mighty Quinn" will one day replace such mundane 'I love you' material as, say, "Night And Day", "Where Or When", and "Anyone Who Had A Heart" in the songbook of American Standards.

And "An Evening With Bob Dylan" will one day enjoy a run on Broadway for the better part of two decades, seeing as how that 'unoriginal' hack Webber was able to do it with two shows (of course, good ol' Andrew was riding the back of a real Nobel laureate for one of 'em).

/slaps forehead and slinks into the night, feeling duly chastised

I don't hink that I (or anyone else on this thread) suggested that any song by Dylan would replace any other song....
I think all we're saying is that, in our opinion, Dylan will have a place when the history of this era is written.

I was there when Dylan emerged and I can tell you that he changed the landscape, not once but twice.

Now...you can argue that...but..some people just like to argue.

Quality of work is really a subjective matter...I think history looks at those thgat made a difference....

Just being a commercially successful ********* is not good enough...
.
I'm sure the folks that spent an evening with Mr Webber had a wonderful time.

The Osmond brothers sold tens of millions of records and provided many a fine evening for their fans as well.

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I'm sure the folks that spent an evening with Mr Webber had a wonderful time.

The Osmond brothers sold tens of millions of records and provided many a fine evening for their fans as well.

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Well, if you're going to try making corelations between a moments-in-the-sun pop group being at the same level as stage musicals with 15+ runs on Broadway (along with critical as well as popular acclaim), then I can see why your artistic standards are skewed more towards the "Everybody Must Get Stoned" and "Lay Lady Lay" type of material rather than gesamtkunstwerke such as Phantom Of The Opera (accusations of Puccini-lite notwithstanding) or Cats (a toss-off children's book of poems by an actual Nobel laureate, if you're more into lyrics than music... personally, I'm not).

There's snobbery and then there's snobbery.

Popularity obviously doesn't equate to quality... but it doesn't automatically negate it, either.

I mean..I don't expect to be here three or four hundred years from now to see how history treats Mr Dylan or Mr Webber.

I have slowed my pace considerably and I take my medication religiously, but, I doubt that will buy me more than a couple of years beyond my original target.

If you make it, Robert..let me know how it turns out...

Mumble a few words into the night...(being a fan of Mr Webbers meanderings that should come pretty easily) and I'll cock an ear earthward for the verdict.

By the way...you have not mentioned ANY of my favorite Dylan songs..but any of the ones you did mention would be a listening choice before "Music of the Night"

Brrrrr.....when I think of all the times we had to struggle thru that piece of drek.....I know that somewhere my old horn and rhythm section just felt a chill as well.

But....Mr Webber certainly has made alot of money.

PS..If the Osmonds did a tour tomorrow..they'd sell plenty of tickets...I know for certain my wife and her daughter would both love to go.

Comparing Mr Webber to the Osmonds...that's a fun thing for me...nobody gets hurt...

His Words (& Music) back in the Early 60's was as Influential as ANY Book of the period..maybe way More So.

"The Times, They Are a-Changin'" was a friggn' ANTHEM! Got both The Weathermen AND The Rolling Stones via Bob's Lyrics.

The Guy certainly WAS The Voice of the Man on the Street back in that Turbulent Era..& we're all kinda Lucky he was Peace-Oriented.

Of COURSE Bob was a GREAT Poet...& his Wonderfully-Quirky Point-of-View makes him as Fun A Study as Any of the previous "Great Writers." ("Just Like a Woman" was written about a Gay Lover...Now read
it AGAIN, Ritt!)

The Man Lived It..Wrote about it ALL..Survived MANY an "Era" Since..and, IMO, he's STILL "Got It" for Any Who'd Care to Listen. (OR Read, if you'd Druther.)

Hell, he even SINGS like a Poet, IMO!
Viva BOB for the Prize..shucks, maybe toss in the PEACE Prize TOO, while you're at it!

Sis

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Brrrrr.....when I think of all the times we had to struggle thru that piece of drek.....I know that somewhere my old horn and rhythm section just felt a chill as well.

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I'm sure that once upon a time you played so fine, maybe even threw the bums a dime when in your prime. I myself shudder to think how you suffered through real music when you could have tokin' and jokin' to the refrains of Rainy Day Women (12 & 35, if memory serves... numbers after a title always did give a composition depth, what!)

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Comparing Mr Webber to the Osmonds...that's a fun thing for me...nobody gets hurt...

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True enough... the only thing that suffers is another's confidence in the aesthetic judgment of the comparer...

Assuming that there was any amount worthy of mention therein from the start, of course.

there's the arrogance that is so endearing..

suggesting that the difference between what you favor and what I favor is that your choice is "real" music.

I've played plenty of "real" music in my life...it's what makes Mr Webbers pap so recognizable as such.

People come to opinions in various ways...
My view of Mr Webbers abilities is shared by many more learned than I.
Certainly there are those who share your opinion as well...
With a bit more grace tho....

But...some of us perform..and some of us talk...

You're certainly entitled to your opinion...

Difference is..I've earned mine.

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there's the arrogance that is so endearing...

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(phone rings)
"Hello, Kettle? Pot here... YOU'RE BLACK!"

The pattern is familiar... I make a statement in a thread, you find it necessary to address me and my tastes personally, though my responses were to the posts of another, and when you get a few barbs back as good or better than you've given, I'm the villain.

I'm sure your performances of music in the real world have earned you a great deal, much as my own method of making a living has made me comfortable, immaterial as it might be to the conversation, but...

Your performances on these threads leave me unimpressed. Rather than forty years of experience you sound more like five years of experience eight times over.

So let's (yet again) agree to ignore one another in future threads?

Just checked with the Chicago Gay Mens Choir...

Not one song by Mr Webber...Nada !

I rest my case !

Of course, they always did favor Sondheim. "One of our own" thing, I guess.

John said "Of course we do LOTS of Sondheim"

Very good , Robert K..evidently part of you does reside in the real world.

(they were 5 pretty good years)

But...

Certain elements of the two stories are..well...similar

Part of it was that nobody at least not commercially, put words and music together like he did. Part of it was he swam against the stream of the folk purists when he put on an electric guitar.

Part of it he spawned a whle generation of rockers that had something to say and wern't afraid to say it. He gave them a map.

Part of it was, his music touched and moved a whole lot of people. People that had no way before to voice what they felt through anything that was current at the time. And they loved him for it.

I think that when you discount Dylan you also wipe an entire generation off your world-as-I-see-it map.

Is he relevant to today? Maybe a little
Does he still move inspire people? Most definitely.

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I think that when you discount Dylan you also wipe an entire generation off your world-as-I-see-it map.

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That's a fair point...

But there's much about the sixties and "Love" generation that turned out to be just so much bull and hypocrisy... everything from drugs and free love (and where have THOSE gotten us?) to concern for social issues that meant little once that generation grew up and pretty much failed to make the world a better place like they bragged... the only "heavy" thing to come out of most of it was profound naivete, of which I myself had more than a fair share.

So, there's much there to be discarded.

That being said, I did say that Mr. Zimmerman was an obviously good songwriter, not totally dismissing him, merely raising an eyebrow at the mention of literature at level of Nobel laureate.

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Originally posted by RobertK:

/and for the record, I find the old Andy Williams' shows featuring the Osmonds quite a bit more charming than, say, an MTV video with word flash cards, but that's another discussion.

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This explains a lot.

/now digging that coo-coo Sinatra thing... ring-a-ding-ding, Mrs. Robinson.

Thank you

But I'm talking about the archetypical "hippie" anthem...He gets lumped in with those kind of writers all the time...

So...

I'm looking for an example of that kind of flower power peace and love lyric from Dylan..

Off hand, I can't think of one.

The 60's were about alot more than Peace andf Love...I was there...You were too..weren't you RoberK?

PS. Yeah I realize on re-read I read it wrong first time. Dang. G

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Jerry

I guess "Turn, Turn, Turn" would fit into that "peace, love, freedom" mood of the times as well. True, a strict reading of Ecclesiastes (sp?) and that lyric show that it's really a "circle of life" song, admitting in its wisdom that there is both time for war and time for peace, but the younger generation of that time certainly didn't focus on the true message, they only heard it as another protest song.

Even though none of the above are as explicitly "Peace & Love" as something like "Get Together" or "Reach Out In The Darkness" by other writers, they remain true political statements to the younger generation at that time...

And as you note, I was there in the midst of it and know how people considered those songs and under what guise they were sung, regardless of how others might want to interpret them nowadays. And that whole Woodstock Generation thing about peace and love also just as much about protest and activism, seldom peaceful or loving.

And that's the hypocrisy of the times about which I spoke. The younger generation and their heroes spoke of peace and love and change, but showed little peace or love to those they viewed as different (even from their own generation), and I think there's ample proof over the past thirty years that little has changed when that generation itself came of age, and the young hippies traded in their tie-dyed shirts and beads for ties and SUVs.

Indeed, our parents and grandparents, the alleged fascists of those times, showed a sight more personal restraint and decency to their neighbors than do the adults today... and their children even less so.

As far as true "peace, love, and understanding" go, whatever it was that was touted by Dylan and his ilk of that time turned out to be so much chaff.

This, of course, is all a side bar and has nothing to do with the fact that Dylan is a decent songwriter.

I don't believe anyone (except you, probably) will dispute Dylan's place in history, his renown, his critical acclaim, and the respect his music has achieved.

So, what is the deal?

Some peole move him into that classification..but these are the same people that thinbk everyone wore beads and chanted in the 60s...the same people who thinbk everyone wore blue jeans and had grease in their hair in the 50s..danced disco and wore polyester in the 70s..etc. etc.

Whatever test you apply to prove greatness in an Andrew Lloyd Webber could certainly be applied to Dylan.

He may not be your cup of tea..and I must accept that in the same sense that you must accept my feelings about Mr Webber..that seems fair...
But history cannot be denied, and Mr Dylan seems to have a pretty good lock on a place in history..in my opinion, at least, and apparently in the opinion of many others.

But...we could ALL be wrong.

Indeed, the people at the Nobel committee might just be a bunch of tired old hippies as well.

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But, Robert, you are the guy who says that those artists who have been "lionized" by critics, by awards, and by fans are above dispute as to their greatness.

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It depends upon who's doing the lionizin'...

(and nice ad hominem, by the way... thanks for following my past posts with such a keen eye.)

There's great... then there's great.

Also, for the past forty years or so, too many circles of critics have made the political stands of the individual as important (perhaps even more important) than the art itself.

A long time ago, Salieri was in with the in crowd during his times and considered Mozart's superior.

Rolling Stone, had it existed, would undoubtedly have had him grace the cover far more times.

If you guys think Dylan's a Nobel laureate for literature and he's a "great" songwriter, God bless.

I think most who admire him fall under the category of being more enamoured with the sound of words rather than their actual meaning.

And speaking from a strict music/composition standpoint, he's third-tier, a league off.

The political/artistic climate being what it is, he could very well win a Nobel Prize...

I'll just chalk that one up to being the literary equivalent of giving a "peace" prize to laureates like Marshall, Duc Tho, Arafat, and Begin.

Also, for the past forty years or so, too many circles of critics have made the political stands of the individual as important (perhaps even more important) than the art itself.

This is a nice dodge, but it is a cop-out (good hippie word, huh?). When critics support your ideas, you hold them up as paragons of wisdom. When critics do not support your views, you dismiss them. You can't have it both ways.

I think most who admire him fall under the category of being more enamoured with the sound of words rather than their actual meaning.

This is rather condescending, isn't it? Perhaps you just don't "get" Dylan. There is no crime in that, of course. Most of Dylan's lyrics are quite clear to me. There is no doubt that he uses words as sounds from time to time. Lots of good writers do that. Think "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious." Arlen and Harburg had a ball with word sounds in "Wizard of Oz."

And speaking from a strict music/composition standpoint, he's third-tier, a league off.

Oh, boy. I knew you would wade around until you stepped in a hole that would put you in over your head.

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When critics support your ideas, you hold them up as paragons of wisdom. When critics do not support your views, you dismiss them. You can't have it both ways.

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Oh, but you can... when Rolling Stone calls something 'literature', you may or may not take it with a grain of salt. When someone like the late John Gardner calls something 'literature', it's worth a higher level of consideration. Like I said, there are critics, and then there are critics.

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This is rather condescending, isn't it? Perhaps you just don't "get" Dylan.

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Well, my remark (if it was condescending) was addressed to the impersonal "people who". Is your own condescension somehow more acceptable when it's directed personally, Monsieur Hypocrite?

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Oh, boy. I knew you would wade around until you stepped in a hole that would put you in over your head.

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And because you say it, that makes it so.

Now that you've declared yourself the winner, try not to hurt your shoulder in patting yourself on the back.

Just for the record, and a final note at that, in the realm of music composition, I consider the likes of Wagner, Bach, Mozart first tier.

At the next level, I'd place men like Webb, Bacharach, Ellington, Gershwin and their ilk; in a frame of broad-mindedness, maybe even Brian Wilson, Joe Jackson, the fellows from Steely Dan, that sort of thing.

Now under those standards I'd say "third-tier" was a fair place for Dylan, and no shame in taking a backseat to those others.

If you'd like to argue that he's the equal of any of the above, musical composition wise, well... I'm not going argue further.