I sometimes will have the worst of my work tapes demoed but don't hesitate to send a song if I feel it is approprate for the listing. I suspect most submissions are of the basic variety anyway.

If you are pitching directly to the recording industry (artists, A&R, producers, label execs), you better have VERY professional demos. That is what they are used to hearing.

If you are pitching to publishers, looking for a writing deal, a good, solid, professional guitar/voice demo should be fine, particularly for very melodic songs.

Furthermore, it depends on the individual to whom you are pitching. Some of them require pro demos, some prefer worktapes. Some don't know what the hell they want. How do you know? You don't. But, I have seen a lot of songs get dismissed because of bad demos, but I have never seen a song get dismissed because the demo was too good.

But here is my own personal caution, and it comes from a lot of experience: anyone who is going to listen to your song is a human being, and they cannot act otherwise. Human beings react to good-sounding music, even if they SAY they can "hear" a good song through a poor recording. It is simple human nature. I have been to numerous critique sessions, where the publisher will claim up front that great demos are not necessary, that a person with good ears can...blah, blah, blah, yada, yada. Then, that same person will react positively to some songs and negatively to others and ...guess what??....it is the good demos that get the good reaction and poor demos that get dismissed.

Good demos are expensive, so here is MY best advice:

1. Do the best demo you can afford.

2. NEVER submit homemade demos with midi drums, bass, piano strings and all that other stuff. It screams AMATEUR. Forget Band-In-A-Box recordings, no matter how cool you think they sound. If you MUST record your own demos, do a guitar/vocal and nothing else. Of course, if you are the one person among thousands who can really do professional demos in a home studio, forget what I just said.

3. Do NOT put long instrumental intros (4 bars max; 2 is better) or instrumental solos on your demos. You are making a song demo, not a record.

4. Don't demo ANY song until you are really sure that it has a CHANCE to be taken seriously. You are competing with hundreds and hundreds of full-time, professional, talented, experienced songwriters, who have track records and who have connections, and who have publishers working their catalogs. Your song has to be better, or you are wasting your money.

Ultimately, there is no single right way or wrong way. You have to use your own best judgement. Keep in mind that you are playing on their field and by their rules. If you wander off the path you will probably be disappointed in the results.

here's how great your songs need to be
and
here's how great your demos need to sound

you can follow the professional pitch protocol
but you gotta have the goods inside

have a listen to the demos on

http://jeffdaytonmusic.com/music_samples.htm

that's one example of our competition
so if you're not in nashville playing the game
you've gotta have something that truly blows the gatekeepers away

------------------
Ande Rasmussen
AndeRasmussen@aol.com
http://www.AndeRasmussen.com
http://songramp.com/ande
http://www.soundclick.com/anders
http://www.MySpace.com/anders

There are really two terms to look at here.

One should be called a work tape.
and one should be called a demo.

A WORK TAPE is something you don't pitch.
It is a song in progress that can be changed
or rewritten. These are sent to a publisher that you have a working relationship with.
Usually Guitar and Vocal with like Truman said "a strong melody line" that gets the idea across.

A DEMO is a polished version that can be pitched and needs not any changes.
This has all the instrumentation and should
sound almost exactly what the finished product will sound like.

DAvid

People just gotta know what they are aiming for and if they are hoping to be professional songwriters and get major label cuts, they gotta do what it takes.
Also there's nothing wrong with writing songs for your own personal enjoyment, expression, and therapy.

Unfortunately, if people are striving to achieve commercial songwriting success, there's no pat paint-by-number formulas to follow.

Though there are guidelines to follow, from those who have gone before us, that might increase our odds of accomplishing our dreams.

+ learn to write really great songs

+ create incredible demos

+ write with those who have had success
great songwriters artists and producers

+ be where the action happens
know and be known
be well thought of
do favors often and ask for favors sometimes

search hard to find incredible song ideas

get your incredible demos heard by someone who can CUT your song

Never give up, never give in, keep trying,

Don't get too excited about any success

Don't get too excited about the possibility of success

I'm not in favor of songwriters

1) having the dream and not doing what it takes,

2) pitching songs before they are ready to pitch, and

3) spending big bucks demoing songs that aren't ready to demo or are intrinsically flawed and will never be worth demoing.

"Stick to the writing and let the artists come up with the presentation.
That is their job."

The only problem here is if the gate keepers don't hear a killer demo of your great song, they artist may pass on a song they might have recorded, if they had heard the song in it's best light.

Ande

quote:

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Originally posted by Graham:
I wonder who is kidding themselves.
Or who is trying to be the kidder here.
It is one thing to hope for cracking the big one just once in our lives.
And a totally differant thing to sell our souls chasing what we already know is a big maybe, while feeding the very machine that can make it so much harder for us to get that one in.
Sure do them good as you can, but budget for the long haul as writing isn't something we realy do expecting fame and fortune, it is something we just do.
The gullable soon run out of puff and funds I am sure.
Thanks to middle men and their supporters.
These often being the desperate for fame writer themselves trying to justify their own stupidity after being sucked into the ********* tunnel of torment and no turning back, just being run over and left for dead..
Would I get a song demoed?
Sure have done a few times.
Why?
Because I like it and want to be able to listen to it in a better form than I can do
Fortunatly now, thanks to some less than attrasctive self demos, I have enough to that stage by way of collab demo, and i some cases, by artists with no stake in the song but liking it enough to want to do it live or for their web site.
Stick to the writing and let the artists come up with the presentation.
That is their job.
Unless you do both at a live gig/radio ready level.
Then this post is not for you anyway is it?
Graham

---

Truman, I have to tell you that I have sent two submissions to the NSAI evaluation service using backing tracks from Band-In-A-Box. While one came back pretty positive and the other one somewhat less positive, neither reviewer mentioned my backing tracks at all. Honestly, I don't know what that means or if it means anything at all. It probably means they were judging the songs themselves and nothing else. I just thought it was interesting given our previous discussions about BIAB. Having said that, I am going to take your advice when I feel I have some songs ready to pitch (either a clean guitar/vocal or have a pro demo made).

Which brings up the eternal question... When does one know they have songs that are ready to pitch and/or worth the expense of a pro demo? If I get an evaluation from NSAI that says, "this song is ready to pitch" does that mean I go out and get a pro demo based on one person's opinion, albeit a professional one?

Perhaps that's as good a basis as any because I honestly don't know how many times one needs to be critiqued before he/she is ready to pitch. Let's face it, the odds aren't in your favor even if all your ducks are in a row.

My partner and I have probably spent around $12,000 on demos. Of that amount, I wish I had about a third of it back. We demoed some songs that are just not good enough to pitch. But we didn't know that then.

For the most part, you're competing with people that go through the time and expense of making a 'radio ready' demo, sometimes two or three times on the same song (a la that relatively recent Montgomery story).

And then, of course, just when everyone is convinced that a full-blown demo is necessary, somebody comes along and gets a cut (that turns into a hit) from a tape they made in their garage with just them strumming and warbling.

Yeah, sometimes you get the job, though you showed up for the interview in jeans and a tee-shirt...

But I'll put my money on the suit and tie every time, and work the odds.

Mostly because, once a song has reached a 'given level of competence', it's all a crap-shoot after that, whether getting a cut from a notable artist, or whether that cut turns into a hit.

An artist who's currently hot can take just about any song into the top ten.

And even the best song in the world is sure to get passed on by at least 20 publishers and artists.

All this being said, very fine demos are to be had for $300 to $400 from several studios... I wouldn't go any higher than that, though I've heard pricetags of $800 to $2000 from some places.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ECA333:
I once had a song demoed by a singer that just blew me away,what a powerful voice.I pitched it and had it accepted by a publisher who pitched it with no success.When the reversion clause kicked in he gave it back to me and apologized that he was unable to get it cut,he said it was a great song with a good demo but he figured most of the singers were intimidated by the great rendition by the demo singer,they did not feel they could match his performance of it.Maybe a lesser singer would not have set the bar as high.

---

It's ironic that you mention this, because I've had prospective "cuts" (admittedly indie) react the same way, some of them actually admitting outright "Gee, I couldn't top THAT!".

Even though I assured them it was merely a demo and nobody would ever have it to compare their performance to, the impression was already indelibly made.

People are funny, sometimes.

Come to think of it, most of the time.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ECA333:
apologized that he was unable to get it cut,he said it was a great song with a good demo but he figured most of the singers were intimidated by the great rendition by the demo singer,they did not feel they could match his performance of it.Maybe a lesser singer would not have set the bar as high.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ECA333:
he figured most of the singers were intimidated by the great rendition by the demo singer,they did not feel they could match his performance of it.Maybe a lesser singer would not have set the bar as high.

---

LOL.. I've had this happened to me too.

Here's another good one:
You submit a demo for a female Artist, and your demo has a good female vocalist. They send it back saying they love the song (and the singer), but prefer to have male vocals on the demo instead...(uh)

ande

quote:

---

Originally posted by ECA333:
I once had a song demoed by a singer that just blew me away,what a powerful voice.I pitched it and had it accepted by a publisher who pitched it with no success.When the reversion clause kicked in he gave it back to me and apologized that he was unable to get it cut,he said it was a great song with a good demo but he figured most of the singers were intimidated by the great rendition by the demo singer,they did not feel they could match his performance of it.Maybe a lesser singer would not have set the bar as high.

---

quote:

---

Here's another good one:
You submit a demo for a female Artist, and your demo has a good female vocalist. They send it back saying they love the song (and the singer), but prefer to have male vocals on the demo instead...(uh)

---

That's just plain screwy, and sounds like a lame blow-off.

What's aggravating to me is when you submit a demo of a song with a lyric and premise that's suitable for male or female, and just happens to be sung by the opposite sex of the prospective client, and although they rave about the song, they balk because they don't have the imagination to hear it immediately in the voice of their own sex.

Give them the music-only tracks and say "try it yourself", and invariably they answer "it's not in my key".

If you have one of those type of songs and you really believe in it, I think it might be worth spending an extra $100 on the demo to get a male and female vocals version done.

But I still reserve the right to say "Sheesh!"

But I'll put my money on the suit and tie every time, and work the odds.

Well said. This is really the crux of it.

...once a song has reached a 'given level of competence', it's all a crap-shoot after that...

Maybe, although I don't buy the crap-shoot part. "Crap-shoot" implies randomness, and there is nothing random about it. Artists do not pull songs from a barrel they way they pull ping pong balls out of the Lotto barrel.

I think that "given level of competence" would more accurately called a "very high level of professionalism." Mere "competence" really doesn't cut it, if you are an outside writer trying to get into the circle.

The big problem is that lots of people who may be competent have fooled themselves into thinking that they are good enough. Reality indicates otherwise.

quote:

---

Originally posted by RobertK:
That's just plain screwy, and sounds like a lame blow-off.

What's aggravating to me is when you submit a demo of a song with a lyric and premise that's suitable for male or female, and just happens to be sung by the opposite sex of the prospective client, and although they rave about the song, they balk because they don't have the imagination to hear it immediately in the voice of their own sex.

Give them the music-only tracks and say "try it yourself", and invariably they answer "it's not in my key".

If you have one of those type of songs and you really believe in it, I think it might be worth spending an extra $100 on the demo to get a male and female vocals version done.

But I still reserve the right to say "Sheesh!"

[This message has been edited by RobertK (edited 02-15-2005).]

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And if this kind of stuff happens a lot, no wonder good songs are hard to get cut. If these "gatekeepers" are so dang good at what they do (Technically, I guess no one has actually made that claim ), why the hell can't they take a good song and transpose it or otherwise modify the melody to make it work?

Seriously fellas.
All I see here is folks pandering to a system that is flawed, and so prolonging it.
Wonder if we should get girl singers to do our bloke song demos?
Just think. If a demo is radio ready wouldn't the average A&R like to be the one who discovered a "New Talent" and be falling over themselves to sign them?
Graham

quote:

---

If a demo is radio ready wouldn't the average A&R like to be the one who discovered a "New Talent" and be falling over themselves to sign them?

---

Not at all... some of the finest demo singers are just that, because they don't fit the 'star' mold ingrained in too many average A&R types, e.g., they're already too old (and nowadays it seems like young to mid-thirties is too old), too busy with a real life, or just plain have a 'face/body made for radio'.

The term 'radio-ready' is merely a handy phrase that only means the demo sounds like it 'could' be on the radio, i.e., it's not just some warbler at his guitar with a knack for songwriting but few actual performance chops.

Usually a much fuller arrangement and some instrumental licks would be added by the cutting artist to make the song truly fly.

Side note to Truman: don't get too hung up on the actual wording of my phrase "given level of competence". It's merely an understated way of saying "truly ready for prime time".

And I think that even if one wished to take the expression literally, a large share of what's on the radio today and what makes it onto many star CDs can only charitably be described as 'competent'.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Graham:
So basicaly the Get it demoed radio ready theme is a sort of pension funds for folks who got too old before they made it? Or blew what they made when they were making it and didn't plan for retirement?
I still see a lot of olds making a good buck out of being still radio ready so to speak.
maybe nobody noticed because they are actually pretty good.
And some of those writers. Now some of them are reeeal old.
Graham

---

Well, obviously there's a big difference between being a Dolly or a Wynonna or even a Mick Jagger and being "old" versus a talented performer who otherwise never 'made it' in their earlier years.

So now that we've gotten the "old" issue covered, let's talk about 'ugly but sound good' and what can be done about that... knowing, of course, that the standards aren't as stringent Down Under.

Anyway, you can't fight city hall... like someone else said, if you want to try to sell your car without washing and waxing it first, Godspeed.

You'll still sell it, so long as it's a Mercedes amongst Fords.

But if it's on the lot with a whole lotta other clean & shiny Mercedes', well...

On another level, even if nothing else comes from it, I like to think of getting a decent $300 to $400 demo as just another way of 'supporting the arts', and giving those otherwise struggling musicians a chance to earn the salt in their soup.

But I've always been kinda sporty with my money.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ande Rasmussen:
sometimes a demo can intimedate an artist because they fear they might not do it as well as the demo singer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DukeWill:
You guys have got to be kidding us about this. What the hell kind of artist is intimidated by ANYone enough to pass on a good song? That makes absolutely zero sense. Like what, the artist is going to hear the demo on the radio and people are going to like the demo better? Who would ever HEAR the demo?

---

You know it makes no sense, and I know it makes no sense, but...

The psychology of these things is complex, and artists are typically more sensitive than most (and all of us, even the rocket scientists, make most of our decisions based upon feelings rather than pure logic).

Some don't admit it outright, but you can often tell from their reaction, even subtle body language, that, if they think they've been topped, they've already "gone to Carolina in their mind", as it were.

Obviously, a star like Celine isn't going to be intimidated by anything or anyone, but an up-and-coming indie... maybe (and like others have said in this thread, they've seen it happen too).

Quick story about 'subtle body language': there was an Oscar show several years back that still sticks in my mind. It featured Celine singing "My Heart Will Go On", and Trish Yearwood had just finished her performance of some song right before that.

She and Celine (two giants in their respective worlds, worlds which only intersect on certain occasions such as that night) stood on the stage acknowledging the applause, but the look in Trish's face was one of those "Kodak moments". She knew she'd been 'smoked', and one could tell it didn't sit well with her.

quote:

---

Originally posted by RobertK:

Side note to Truman: don't get too hung up on the actual wording of my phrase "given level of competence". It's merely an understated way of saying "truly ready for prime time".

---

If that's what you meant, then I agree with your statement. And, as I said, the big problem is that there are a lot of nice folks who believe that they are "truly ready for prime time," but are, in fact, merely competent. Or worse.

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve pierce:
But I have a major rant about major artists not being able to listen to a homemade demo.

---

I think you are missing the point. Major artists almost NEVER accept songs from the street. Their songs are provided to them by the publishing industry, That's what publishers do. Artists accept songs from publishers because they know the pubs are professionals who are not going to waste their time with crappy songs. Publishers build their reputations by pitching good songs. They pitch professional demos because they understand very well what we have been talking about here--that you better clean and polish that car if you want to make it attractive to buyers. There are a lot of other really nice cars on the lot, and THEY are all polished as hell.

Understand that publishers CAN and DO listen to homemade demos. It has been stated here more than once that you can send rough demos to publishers. BUT(!!!), understand that you are competing against others writers,just as talented as you; with their songsthat are just as good as yours; on great-sounding demos.

It's not about what you should do, or what others expect you to do. It's about doing all you can do to give your song a shot.

I know a guy who got a cut with NO demo. You just have to do what you think is best.

quote:

---

Originally posted by TrumanCoyote:
If that's what you meant, then I agree with your statement. And, as I said, the big problem is that there are a lot of nice folks who believe that they are "truly ready for prime time," but are, in fact, merely competent. Or worse.

---

And some of them already on the charts!

All seriousness aside, and speaking of understatement...

A friend of mine has a wonderful deadpan expression when he's not truly satified or impressed with a lyrical or musical phrase during the process of songwriting... he calls the item in question 'serviceable'...

I find that an elegant method of 'damning with faint praise', as it were.

quote:

---

Originally posted by RobertK:

A friend of mine has a wonderful deadpan expression when he's not truly satified or impressed with a lyrical or musical phrase during the process of songwriting... he calls the item in question 'serviceable'...

I find that an elegant method of 'damning with faint praise', as it were.

---

Yeah....we call it "settling." It's an insidious habit.

Also great replies!

I want to take this moment to thank everyone for posting their insight to this intrigueing question... Just how good should a demo be?

Not even sure I can bring any new info to the table...

I am of the opinion as good as possible:

1. Music representitives are so inundated with ideas that are not quite there yet, that they develope a "no" type mindset. They get so use to the words "no", "pass", et cetera that they will easily pass on something worthy. No not every song idea should be a #1 hit. Some songs are well suited as album cuts.

2. If anyone is in the process of breaking into the music business... [they have not yet solidified their music endeavers]... They should try their best to strive for perfection... so that it becomes second nature. Not just learning the tricks of the trade, but whole heartedly learning the trade itself. Leave the short-cuts and the half-*ssed approach up to those who have made it and know where they can cut corners and get away with it.

3.Half-*ssed approaches lead most time to half-*ssed results... they go hand-in-hand together theory...

What this does not mean:
1. Never mortgage the house on a demo unless you are mighty sure of its worthiness?!

2. Do not get stuck on any one idea while other idea/prospects are begging for further attention... i.e. someone writes a song and refuses to write another until something fantastic becomes of the first.

Sorry if I misspelled any words. I did like the selling the auto example in the previous postings. It does make the perspective clearer I think. If I think of anything else I will post later thanks!

Can't add much new except for personal experience (which is fairly limited).

I just had a song fully demoed. First one ever and it was free and from a very good producer (long story). It sounds great!!! Someone heard it and gave me contact info to a major player in town. I got permission to submit some songs & have done so. He told me he would listen and get back to me. Unfortunately (I feel at this point anyway) the other two songs I submitted are guitar vocal demos I did at home. They don't sound bad and I can sing, but they sure don't shine like the other song does. I'm pretty sure I got this contact (& hopefully future meeting) because of the great sounding demo. The song is quite good I think, but I don't think the guitar/vocal would have garnered the same attention.

I also just had a small publisher pick up a song of mine from my guitar/vocal demo. He loved the lyrics & melody and picked it out of about 30 other songs my co-writer presented.

Plus I have an ulterior motive. I may want to put together a CD of me singing my songs some day. I have no big aspirations of being an aritst. Just something I want to do some day. I'm building it track by track...

------------------
John