JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum CO Writing or Alone...?

This is an interesting Article but there are so many exceptions. I write both music and words BUT work with outside lyricists also. I find writing lyrics with another person is disjointed and don't like it.It's a different Psychology as a Singer Songwriter as our songs are more Personal than just 3 guys writing in a room in Nashville. By Personal I mean that what a Singer Songwriter writes about is USUALLY about how HE or SHE sees the world AND or Autobiographical. AND of course THEY will be singing their own message.

Any Thoughts?

http://soulofthewriter.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-art-of-co-write.html?utm_source=SOTS%3A+The+Art+of+the+Co-Write&utm_campaign=Creative+Soul+Online&utm_medium=email

Seems to work better for country music, maybe christian, I have never written a christian song. Not rock or Pop, defintly not blues.

I mean what do you write?

I been draggin at the bottom
and I cant find my way up
oh yeah, I been draggin at the bottom
and I cant find my way up
yeah the tax man gonna git me
man, this workin life is rough

Even if somebody could make that a great blues tune, the lyric itself has little to do with it, it's just following a 12 bar blues pattern that has been done thousands of times.

People will argue and say, "oh, listen to my song, i wrote the lyrics first, it works"

Yeah it works, it would also work if you changed 50% of the lyric, or 75% of it, just because it works out in the final product, doesn't mean that it's a great lyric. great idea, and great stroy maybe, but a great song?

I think the ideal way to write a song is having the melody and lyric come out at the same time. Obviously it will need to be edited, but you are more likely to create an honest vibe if you are singing your song, the emotion of it is there.

A lyric by itself is dead.

But, it can be done, Im sure many hits have been written that way, I just think it;s hard to write a great song in cookie cutter form and structure

Songwriters travel to Nashville with a dream of turning their songs into hits. If they stay any length of time, they end up dreaming of a chance to just write with a hit songwriter. Make of that what you will.

if I had a chance to write with a hit songwriter, id certainly do it. Nothing to lose, everything to gain.

Rock songs are usually co-written by bands. Except it might not be considered "co-writing" but it actually is.

The city of Nashville was founded on the co-writing process and was designed that way. The "Music Row' area are a series of small and medium sized houses, medium and big buildings all next to each other. It was designed with the idea of a "neighborhood or community of songwriters, artists, publishers/labels.managers, etc.

There is very little solo writing because number one it is much more fun to write with someome else than get bogged down by yourself and you increase the odds of getting songs out there if you include other people. The majority of cuts now will be with two experienced writers working with one artist.

If you break down the actual songs that come out of there (about 250-300 a day) you will find pieces of each individual in the songs themselves.

Writing with an experienced writer gives street credibility and introduces you into the network and relationships of other writers.

Actually a pretty good way to do business. You get to know who you are working with good and bad before you have to committ to relationships. And songs are always a by product of relationships with the relationship coming first and being most important.

The same process was done with MOTOWN in the 60's, where six buildings housed the Motown machine, with one for writing the songs, one for recording them, one for dance and media instruction and publicity, one for offices and management. It was a "HIT FACTORY."

Same with the "BRILL BUILDING" in New York. Each area has their own hirearchy, history and etticate.

The BUSINESS OF MUSIC.

I think writing with, and writing seperate from each other are way different things. One guy writes a lyric on a paper, and hands it to a musician. That's more like pin the tail on the donkey.

Writing with the music rolling is much different, thats probably how most do it, but most lyrics people are not very good at that.

The doors are one of the few rock bands that set music to lyrics, and thats cause Morrison wrote poetry, and the music was backdrop for the poetry.

I guess its all co writing, but with bands, it's more collaborating and arranging.

Either way, if somebody is traveling to Nashville in hopes of writing with a pro writer, that has little to do with writing, that has more to do with networking and marketing to make a career out of it

Bugsey,

I'm sorry but I have to dissagree 100%. It is ALL about songwriting. Writing with people who know more than you or that you have a different perspective with can brodan songs, perspective and abilities. Many younger people have very little life experiences and need an older person to give some perspective on a situation.

Also knowing the craft enables newer people to say more with less. If you have ever gotten around someone that has six verse songs with no definable hook or chorus, and doesn't say anything in the last four verses they didn't say in the first two, you would see the benefits of co-writing.

Actually most songs over the years were co-written. In the early days you usually had a "composer and lyricist." There were very few that did both. With something like Broadway, there was also a liberettist or script writer. So there were usually three people involved in the musical theater.

The solo writers came in mostly in the 60's with Dylan, and continued to this day but I would suggest you look at a majority of succesfull songs throughout history and you will find most of them co-written.

That doesn't mean that some people can write solo, of course they can and do. Even in some co-writes, one party or the other may do a majority of the work on some songs. Everyone has an off day.

Networking is certainly a part of it. but it is most definately about the song and the direction it goes. And that is all songwriting.

MAB

You're allowed to disagree. It's all opinion.

Well, craft should be an automatic. if you are trying to go to nashville and write with a pro writer, and not have your craft down, you are wasting everybody's time. I'd like the forum to be more about craft, but it's about many things mixed in.

I will also respectfully disagree in that, just because somebody is writing in Nashville, it doesnt mean they are better, or know more about craft, they are just "in"

Some of the songs that are hits today, aside from the paycheck, you wouldn't want your name associated with them.

Just as we see in American idol, there are plenty of great singers who are better than what is being sold in millions, out there. it be Funny for Miley Cyrus to give singing lessons to some of these winners.

It's not all about talent, and usually not at all. At least not in the present day. id rather be lucky than good, if making money is the goal.

I again think it;s more about the business end.

Im sure there is some guy who writes as a hobby, who can kick alot of those guys butts, but nobody will ever know it

Bugsey and Marc are both correct but it's just a different vision. I have tried writing words with another lyricist but it usually doesn't work for ME....I usually have a vision and a point of view and HOW can that be accomplished If I do part of the song and they do part. IT could be a good song but FOR ME it's an empty feeling. Billy Joel wrote by himself in a room (words and music) and you could tell. I know that most of the great Broadway AND Pop Songs had more than one writer but I only do that if I have a melody and send it to a lyricist for THEM to write the entire thing. It won't be about me or my thoughts but can be a great song. I write too many melodies for ME to write all the lyrics and really don't want to. I LOVE writing melodies....but when I get a good idea for words I'm a much on fire for the words as the music. FOR ME.....My best songs are ME doing it all and singing....JUST ME and I'm never going to make it as a songwriter except here in my room and on youtube..BUT I am a singer songwriter in the eyes of GOD just not marketable material to the stupid masses. I'm proud of my Body of work and think I've left a nice footprint here on earth after I go....I'm doing ok and LOVE WRITING SONGS and Singing them. NOW sometimes it's less lonely writing with another one or two....BUT it's not as much fun.

co-writing is a practiced skill like any other creative endeavor. I like MAB's point that co-writing can take you to places you couldn't get to by yourself. I mostly write solo, but I know I would write better songs if I could get deeply in to that co-writing thing.

Aside from being more fun and getting better songs (sometimes, I guess), nashville co-writing is also a business decision. If you have two or three writers you have doubled or tripled your chances of getting traction on your song -- especially if you write with performing artists. No guarantee of a hit, of course, but just more chances. Considering that on most songs being recorded today, the artist seems to be in the writing credits. Makes sense to follow that current instead of canoeing by yourself upstream.

Bugsey,

Have you ever been to Nashville, been around the songwriting community, or written with people inside the community, because that is one of the most nonsensical things I have ever heard. EVERYBODY comes here not knowing the craft. Even the God's everyone talk about, Kristofferson, Nelson, etc. will tell you they learned it when they got here and writing with greats that came before them. Now they took it in their own directions but this town is built around learning from others.

That is how you learn the craft.

MAB

I will always relate more to a singer/songwriter more than somebody who sings songs. You know it's them speaking to you, if they are trying to speak to you

Nope. I havent aspired to. I dont even listen to country very often, although i have grown to appreciate it.

You can learn craft in any city, it doesnt have to be Nashville, it used to be the Haven for Country songwriters, but nothing coming out of there these days is on par with Willie Nelson.

And im sure Willie Nelso had some crazy ass talent and command of his craft before he ever got there.

But 40 years ago is not today, do you listen to the radio?

I agree with all that, but your describing is a better way to be successful, not be a better writer

Well said Willie!

http://performingsongwriter.com/willie-nelson-interview/

Is there anything you have to say to aspiring songwriters?

If you�re willing to really carve into yourself and spit it out, I think you�ve got a better chance of succeeding. I think a lot of songs are just � the substance is really not there. You can tell that somebody�s writing for a publishing company just because he�s on salary. But, if you can carry a little bit of yourself off and put it in there, people can feel it, and see it and I think that�s the biggest key to being a good songwriter: not being afraid to put yourself into it. Tell it like it is and don�t try to sugar coat it a lot.

Interesting exchange of ideas about songwriting.

I've done many co-writes but not in Nashville, LA or NYC, etc. In all honesty, I prefer to write alone. My reasons are many but a few are: 1. It takes less time. 2. It certainly reduces the stress of arguments between writers. 3. If success is ever attained (I'm speaking of the money end of things) there is a larger slice of the pie left for the single songwriter who will end up having to give up half or more of the proceeds to the publisher or label involved.

Finally, I prefer to think of what is created in the songwriting process as ART, not Craft. Don't get me wrong... I make no claim about being a successful writer. I sure don't care much for my vocals... and I suspect I have not even come close to writing my best song yet.

Willie Nelson and so many other prolific songwriters have proven to me that living in Nashville is not an essential element in this discussion. In the final analysis, you need to do what works best for you. If that includes Nashville or some other big music center, so be it.

Your talent and work ethic, coupled with your contacts (insiders) will carry you far if you have the drive to leave no stone unturned in your pursuit of the art of songwriting and all of it's many important facets.

All my best to all of you,

Dave

I agree. Although I have a different twist on the art/craft thing.

To me, craft is how we make art. Art is what we make.

Eh, Well,
There was a NSAI Chapter close to here that I was invited to join way back in 1994. Problem was there was no real comarade between the songwritrs. Not too many in the group but they had their own little click and you were not included. I went for a while until it disbanded. I tried to join in but it was a waste. If I was in Nashville I may do some Co-Writing but am not moving to Nashville. I have no doubt that the same things I found here are just as prevelant in Nashville. Write a Hit!

i've written by myself for forever until the last couple years. i think it works out equally for me either way.i know when there are some lyrics i'd rather tackle alone while others could use some help.Always need help with the music since i'm no musician though.i wouldn't hesitate at all to make a move to write with the big boys/girls.All i could do is learn more the way i see it.i'd go broker but i'd have fun with the experience.But for what i've done with others from here,i'm happy as hell!!!Mike

Hello,

I write alone & with co writers, I enjoy both.
And I also enjoy hearing someone else do a version of my songs, I like it all and think it's a good experience.

Calvin


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/calvinstewart

Collaborating can be useful in filling in the gaps or it can open up more gaps. It only works in the former.

Up to the big internet boom people like Willie and the boys
needed to go to where it was happening to learn the song writing craft from likeminded people.

Now there's a ton of tutorials and info on You Tube etc.
You hardly have to get out of bed to learn how it's done.
Writing a money maker is a different thing. That's just business.

The only reason to go to where the big boys are is to show yourself off.
It may or may not get you more money but it won't make you a better songwriter. Judge what's coming out for yourself.
A lot of it is pretty ordinary material which would be lost without a good sounding band to disguise it.
Who's writing that?

Now I'm going back to bed to Google some more about prosody.

Vic

I've written over 3000 songs and not one is a co-write. Music is my weakness, no problem with words.

�Craft�?

That makes it sound so exclusive, so esoteric. �Come to Nashville and learn the Craft from the Masters.�

Oh, and by the way....bring your wallet.

I agree Bugsey...I miss people like Cat Stevens and Billy Joel.....It is a Special Talent that SOME have that gives them the ability to be Great Story Tellers, Melody Writers AND sing/technicians. I am MY biggest Fan and always have been. I used to think I was Great but I've really gotten so much better over the many years of honing the craft as it's so much MORE than just a melody writer OR lyricist.....Entirely Different animal.

I'm still MY Biggest Fan and I think in order to stay active you HAVE to be. WE get SO many negative things said and stupid suggestions that WE need to be able to listen, use what may be useful and then just keep moving forward. Singer Songwriters develop a STYLE and a SAMENESS in the sound of their playing, singing and writing and I think that is GOOD. As you develop a following that really likes you......they want to hear a similar product over the years. When I first started to record my songs for youtube and sound click I tried to change my styles on different songs BUT it was too Schizzo....SO I developed a style and have stuck with it. After about 10 seconds at the beginning of every one of my songs it is Obvious that it's ME....and to my Fans that is comforting.

B

yeah, many feel that is still the only way, making fans one by one.
Hopefully over a long time they accumulate.

There is so much music out there, why should anybody care about ours? We gotta make them care, give them "news they can use"

Not that singer songwriters know anything more than anyone else, but they might hit on something that rings true. After 5 or 6 songs somebody say, yeah I know what he means.

I think that's what brings people back

I also find that many lyricists have NO Music Soul and can't understand that somebody has to SING the words in an easy flowing manner. IF they let the melody writer have that edit ok it can work out. BUT....I've found some very good lyricists that don't want me to change a syllable etc. Even after I show them HOW it must be sung they JUST DON'T Get IT....

NOW that is lyrics there and melody over here.

HOW you write LYRICS by committee while sitting in a small little room in Nashville escapes me....

Even Musically.....How a melody gets plucked from the air in a threesome also escapes me. I have a Good Friend Phyllis who is a Gifted Wordsmith. BUT She trusts me to edit but not change her storyline. Sometimes I'll write the melody and hum the verse part. BUT I will write the words to the chorus and she picks up the story line and verses. Many times I will come up with a Great Melody and the chorus words just appear magically with the melody BUT I either don't want to or have time or the patience to write the verses so I'll send what I have to Phyllis. Last night I came up with a FUN SONG called IT'S A CRAZY WORLD and had the entire melody AND chorus WORDS....I was going to send what I had to HER to write the verses BUT as I was finishing up the verse words JUST CAME and it's DONE....lol I'm going to record it later. UNFORTUNATELY as like with all of us AFTER each song is finally written and recorded I hear these words ALL THE TIME OVER THE YEARS...."NOW WHAT"....lol....I just put it on sound click or youtube etc.....send the mp3 to a few people and move on.....UGH!

"Come to Nashville and lose opportunities to bozos who are not even country. Hell I'm more country than they are!

Yup, I dont think Neil Diamond, Or Sting, Or Elvis Costello, or Neil Young, Or Tom Petty, or Mr Springsteen went to nashville to study Nashville.

Heck, Darius Rucker from Hootie and the Blowfish released country music, that sounded more country than what is out there now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6upvQVznAU

Nashville is probably still the gold standard for country music, but there are other kinds of music and many different kinds of great writers in the world, it's a narrow scope saying they have to go to Nashville

At the end of the day it still falls on the music writer to make it happen. If you look at the ratio of lyricists to musicians on this forum, that will tell you which is the heavy lifting.

Take any lyric here and make a kick ass melody and record it and produce it superbly, most people who listen will call it a "great song"

Wish we could experiment like this, have somebody who is really good at producing tracks pick 10 lyrics at random, and see if all 10 dont sound relatively the same

"HOW you write LYRICS by committee while sitting in a small little room in Nashville escapes me...."



I get all of my lyrics from a guy in a black cape down at the crossroads.

One guy writes all the "ands" "ifs" "buts"

Another guy handles all the nouns, persons places or things.

Yet another guy writes all the adjectives and adverbs.

The last guy is the editor!

I guess it's all a way of getting exposure for everybody involved. It's business, not writing though

To me Nashville is the finest spot in the world for songwriting. You don't have to be a country writer to appreciate that. I think Willie Nelson and the whole alternative country stuff is great, but I also think the craftsmanship in Nashville is widely under-appreciated. Many Greenwich Village poets have read less litterary novels, and are a lot less versed in litterary studies than many songwriters in Nashville.. and if you think you can play guitar.. even your average bartender in Nashville may slayer you in a guitar duel. I haven't been there, but I have met some folks that is the living proof of that. As a guitarist I'm in awe of the level the art of songwriting in Gtr town.

Songwriting is a way of communicating and co-existing with each other, so of course co-writing is essential. Both in order to learn how to write, in order to write something interesting, and in order to interact with other people about the music and the things you write about.

It doesn't mean that Nashville is the only place, but it certainly is an idiomatic place, Nashville is thE prototype of songwriting practice for alle over the western world. NSAI has a division in Denmark, and Bobby Bare participated in the Norwegian Eurovision contest a few years ago. So, Nashville is a model for how great music is crafted all over the world, and invites everybody in. So it's not really an exclusive place at all. No inside/outside, just really inspired and alert people who wants to hear the best songs from everywhere (not that everything is country).

So, co-writing is definately something to aspire to, imo. But not always a choice, for one reason or another. Co-writing is about sharing your artistic view, and as such is very much about great people skills.

Point was, it was said that you learn your craft once you get there. What "craft" first of all? Even dance music has craft involved.

You learn by listening to great records. I took guitar lessons for about a year, and never learned a damn thing. I started trying to imitate the records i was listening to and got much better.

Same for songwriting, you learn from great songwriters, but when they are not around to spoon feed you, you learn by listening and breaking down their songs, and asking yourself why they work.

Books or Seminars might clear up some things. Shelia Davis craft of lyric writing was a great book, mostly helped me with focusing my thoughts. Like a song should be about one thing all the way through...? Who knew? I didnt, I wrote whatever came out.

I dont think you can be a great writer from reading a book, but it's all little steps to getting better.

I know a few people on these forums packed up and moved to Nashville or nearby to pursue the career. They didnt go because they thought they sucked at it, they went to find a career.

If you dont have any talent, a one on one session with Jimmy Webb wont make you any better.

But India and Japan have great songwriters there too

Does all this mean you all are for co-writing, against co-writing, or don't really care?

�So it's not really an exclusive place at all. No inside/outside, just really inspired and alert people who wants to hear the best songs from everywhere.....�


Really? What color is the sky in your world?


�I haven't been there...�

Precisely.

I think co writing could be fun, I have done it when i was in bands. Im not against it, it can open new doors for you i suppose, but I dont know that one person writing a lyric, handing it to a musician to add melody is co writing.

Worked for Bernie Taupin and Elton John, but you dont see many of those around often

The Food Chain:

Songwriter # 1 � Writes the song.
Songwriter # 2 � Adds/changes a line � has a contact at a publisher.
Songwriter # 3 � Produces the song. Has a contact with an artist.
Songwriter # 4 � The Artist. Has a record deal. �Hey, it doesn't get cut without me, right?�

Even when I write alone I feel like it's a cowrite since the muse is my cowriter. She talks to me in a lyrical language and I simply respond by placing my fingers on the keyboard and let her take the reins. The same can be said for the melodies she has written. They are whispered, not audibly into my ears, but into my head and I simply listen. In essence, every song is a co-write.

Haha, the sky over here is pretty dark, just like in the rest of the world these days. It's a challenge to keep seing the nuances.

I haven't been to Nashville, but my point was that Nashville is reaching out. They've established themselves 1000 miles from Tennesee, and I have had great songwriters calling me up on Skype to cowrite long distance. That's why I did put it the way I did. No closed communities does that, and neither does people who just don't care. So even though I haven't been to the place, I still have direct experiences with people.

I'm not just for it, I think it's essential. You can put down some basics through books and records, but you need to connect your writing to a real world where people have real concerns, and make the songwriting grow from that. Thats a way to make the songs artist based and to make them interesting enough to connect too an audience.

But people aren't numbers, so it matters a lot WHO you co-write with. They need to have great ideas, skilled craftsmanship and somewhere to turn with their music, otherwise it's a waste of time. So high engagement is key. People who are defensive, and long back to days that never was, can't give you a straight answer about what they love, and put down everyone they come across, are all signs that they lack that crucial engagement and ability to connect.

So cowriting is great, IF you are careful screening who you work with. In that respect, it's like any highly sought after job, in any other business. This means that co-writing isn't for everyone, it's something you can aspire to do, imo. At least the good kind of co-writing. You can still practice co-writing in any type of relation, though, which can be great. It can also scare the hell out of you, and keep you from progressing.

If Nashville has all the best writers in the world, why are we not hearing it on radio any more? Is it because the industry is now going with singer/songwriters. They can come from anywhere but end up in Nashville because that is where the big labels are. Seeing the majors have a strangle hold on what gets played on radio and get to own a share of publishing/writer royalties, they are doing alright money wise, so they are not too concerned how good the music/songs are, as long as their competitors are not putting out any better material than they are.

Everett,

You make the same mistake and at the same time put your finger on the situation. They are all COMPETITORS. There is not one nameless faceless corporation that controls everything in Nashville, New York or Los Angeles. and as always, the businesses who compete in this LOSE more than they win in business. For every act that is successful there are hundreds that for whatever reason don't connect with the public. And now, if you are not connecting with the public in the first place, the labels are not going to look at you to begin with.

Yes, everyone is a writer artist now. It has been this way for decades. Nothing new about it.

As far as the 'quality of music" on the radio, a sense of music history is in order. There have always been more "one hit wonders" than lasting long time acts. Majors have always controlled product, that is what having a business is about. Do you think Microsoft or Apple just let anyone come in and do the same thing?

Music is a business. Pure and simple. There are stockholders involved and that always determines what the product is.

Now there are millions and millions of songs, artists, out on the Internet. Everyone has the ability to get what they do 'out there." And quite frankly, even the majors have trouble making money in the market of "free music."

Look to Internet Service Providers if you want to see where the real money in music is. Google, Facebook, Reverb Nation, I tunes, Spotify, Pandora, etc. There is where your money in the music business is.

MAB

There's a lot of possible answers to that, Everett. But lots of people write great songs that don't neccessarily end up on mainstream radio. Being on the Radio isn't a quality rating, it's a business. And it's a business getting there in many ways.

Don't confuse the elitist notion of quality with popularity. Those are different things, and you will have to choose. You will get your wallet crushed if you try to talk Hallmark to the Wallmart folks. Quality is mostly something rich people can afford, and they are less than 1%, remember :-)

There is no doubt that hanging around with great writers, especially ones who write the same kind of music you do, can be life changing. They used to say if you want to learn blues, forget school or lessons, go hang out in Chicago or Memphis and sit in with the great blues players.

Im sure there are still classic "real" songwriters in Nashville hanging on the outskirts of whats popular, who will talk to you and help you out.

it just changes the question a bit. Do you want to be a great songwriter, or do you want to become a successful songwriter?

And do you leave everything behind to become a GREAT songwriter, when being great doesnt pay the bills.

There are jazz musicians who practice their instrument 8 hours a day, and im not kidding. That is what they do, practice all day, maybe have one gig on weekend, and teach and do sessions to make money.

They know nobody is ever going to care just how much they practice and how unbelievably adept they are, but they do it because they want to be great. if they wanted to make money they would join a top 40 band, and you do see some jazz musicians doing that, cause they cant pay the bills.

If you want to pay the bills with songwriting, i think being great is a forgone conclusion, most of your time should be spent networking

Hi Folks:

Lots of interesting thoughts to consider in this ongoing thread. Co-writing is fine if all of the "dots are connected." I still don't agree it is the only way to succeed... but hey, what do I know? Bugsey sure hit the nail squarely on the head with the "networking" statement. I believe it is nearly as important as talent... and judging by some of the stuff we hear on many tightly controlled radio stations... it may be more important if you want to gather coins beneath the music money tree.

One thing is certain... we would not be having this conversation if any of us had struck musical gold. Instead, we would be worrying about our next single or album... or the logistics of our next road trip... LOL!

Whatever works best for you is what you should do.

As Ray says, "Write a Hit!" (If only I could!)

Best of luck to everybody,

Dave

Music is a business, but don't let that put you off. What the heck is business anyway, but taking an interest in other people, sharing, trading and offering stuff, trying to make the most of it. That's what we all do after all the crying is done, one way or another.

Taking great intrest in the business end will really make you both a better songwriter and a better co-writer, in my view. You get to see things from the outside, reach out, commit, and start making more serious efforts.

That's not all bad.

I wrote what comes to mind, male, female, it doesn't matter. I've personally never been a man but I have one so I have an idea of how some topics would work out.
I like cowriting but it can be difficult some times. Not always, mostly it's about finding people with similar personalities or an opposite who can compromise and being fresh ideas.

I think quality should be rewarded while shoddy should be discouraged, or else everyone will be putting out shoddy goods in quantity just to compete. If I buy quality furnisher it will out last shoddy three to one. Sure it will cost more but be cheaper in the long run. Bad music will not encourage people to buy, but they might buy great music, but if great music is not made available, they can't buy what they don't know about. Pride in what one makes no longer exist in most cases, so we get what we pay for, or we don't buy in the first place. No doubt the public is mainly to blame when it comes to music, they stole music off the net regardless of quality, so what was the use in putting out quality music when people were going to steal it.

Everette,

You have to do what is in your heart and abilities to do. One thing I have to say, most people who are involved in the music industry don't THINK that the product is poor music. It is the same as the effect of the old 'cassette days' where you would get a "dub of a dub of a dub" the quality delines with each generation.

That could be said for all of society. As we have gotten more and more technologically based and "each moment gratification" centered, the need or desire for quality has dissapeared. It is a generational thing and can't be blamed on any one thing.

Music is now everywhere. Millions of people do this. They can write a so-called song int he morning, record a version on their laptops with the computer technology an hour later, put a camera phone video on YOU TUBE an hour later and have hits going on instantly. When the supply of anything exceeds the demand,the level of that quality is going to dissapate, as well as the value of that quality. It is evolution, or de-evolution.

Complaining about it never really does any good.

You have to do things that make you happy. Work within the confines of what you can. Raise your own level and continually work for what fills your soul. If that dream is to be a more commercially oriented songwriter, you have to make moves toward that.

But it really doesn't make any difference complaining about it. It is what it is.

MAB

The main difference is the classic non performing songwriter or lyricist, is a dinosaur in the music business.

I read somewhere that a few years ago 6 songs in that year which charted where not written by the artist.

It used to be that the people who specialized in song, were needed, and we live in a very specialized world, i mean a ear nose and throat doctor wont listen to your complaints about your eyes.

it's hard enough in a world where songs are needed, when they arent needed we are pissin in the wind.

Go out and perform your songs yourself, it's your best shot

Well,
If you Co-Write with someone that you can work with:
A. Do work up a Co-Writing Agreement for each song spelling out what each of you will do. Best if you can be in the same location rather than at a distance. If you work at a distance do know each other's address so you don't lose track of each other.
B. If possible set a time period over which you will Co-Write. It takes time to write acceptable songs so a year or two may be the shortest time for getting together writing.
C. Try to set the same time/day each month for getting together. Maybe also a time limit where you will work on songs. 1 to 3 hours at a setting.

Let finished songs "Set a While" before you decide they are really finished. You may want to change something. Good luck.