JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Please don't take JPF for granted!!!

Brian,

You missed the point on the donation issue ... you should re-read the back and forth between Midnite and I on this thread.

Over on the Political Forum, in a thread called "Political Financial Hypocrites" Midnite Bob called out specific people for never donating. In this thread, I asked, "how do you know they never donated?" Midnite replied that they weren't on the honor roll donation list.

I said that I donated PRIOR to 2008, and my name's not listed, because the donation honor roll only goes back to 2008.

I donated at the end of 2007. I sent the check in October 2007, I believe, and you cashed the check in December 2007.

I left the Forum after that, and didn't come back until 2011.

I think we both know why you never thanked me, but that's not why I brought it up. I brought it up to illustrate the point to Midnite that people could have given money, and he wouldn't know about it.

Anyway, yes, I did give again in 2013, and that donation did end up on the donation honor roll.

Regarding free speech ... I agree that you don't censor people often, but you have always made it VERY clear that you have that right .... which, of course, you do.

Lisa

Brian,

I re-read your message and saw how snarky you were to me. You wrote:

"If you disagree with what he said, no one stopped you from doing it differently. And if you weren't going to donate anything anyway, why do you care about his efforts in the first place? He tried to help and succeeded versus doing nothing at all. It is much appreciated."

Huh? I came onto this thread and TRIED to do it differently! What in the world are you talking about?

I tried to offer a different approach, and you're slamming me for NOT trying a different approach? I asked Midnite to stop insulting people! I gave suggestions for fundraising in a different way! Did you even read Midnite's highly insulting fundraising note on the political forum, which I was referring to? Did you even read what I said?

And if you really don't understand how a "RIP Brian" thread could turn someone off and make them immediately think they don't want to donate to that kind of morbid manipulation, then I really can't help you there.

The different way I was suggesting was NOT tricking people and NOT browbeating people, and to think of what worked in the past, and to try do what worked then.

How can you say I didn't try a different way, when that was the whole point of my message?!

Lisa

My thoughts for what they're worth are that you have to be wary of alienating your audience.
Even those that support you with donations may feel intimidated.

Why not have a yearly registration fee of say $5-$10 after a free three month trial?
You can still keep the voluntary donations button.

Vic

Very valid point about "alienating", Vicarn. I've tried my best not to do that here on the General Forum. In the Political Forum, however, alienating seems to be the name of the game.

In foresight, perhaps I went a bit too far there, and I apologize to all and sundry!

But THAT was in the Political Forum. If anyone has an issue with what I posted there, then perhaps a response, directly to those posts, should have been made in the Political Forum.

Editing after a coup last days because I just reread what I wrote.

Perhaps folks DID respond to me in the Political Forum. I know that one person
did and I responded back and then I realized that my time would be better spent on this thread and haven't been back there since.

If anyone has been back there since, please send me a PM and I'll do my best.

Midnite

For what it's worth, I appreciate the "fundraising" thoughts tossed out here.

I sincerely hope that the "fundraising" effort won't get lost.

That's all I'm asking.

I started this thread, largely because of Brian's health issues, and woke up one morning, and wondered if JPF would still be there to log into....My wife says I had had a dream that evoked a panic attack.

Everything that has followed, regarding any of my fundraising efforts, came from the dream(?) that I woke up from and....

... there was no JPF.

It was very frightening!!! And I say this as someone who isn't even involved in music anymore.

There are other internet communication sites...But there is only ONE JPF!

Oh, and after 4 days of no power due to Matthew, it kicked on again today!!!!

Dayum, I am so looking forward to taking a hot shower!!!

Please, ALL, forgive any missteps I've taken. Blame it on me, not the little yellow button:-)

Midnite

P.S...The Internet is still out, but that's why God allowed iPhones:-)

I responded to the specific post I quoted, which is why I quoted it. And what I mean by doing it differently, it is just that, doing it differently rather than complaining about something someone else did. He was trying several approaches. It worked as we actually stopped the yearly decrease and passed last year's total, something that wouldn't have happened if he hadn't stepped up.

It's true you donated but that wasn't the issue, I simply noted that your name IS on the honor roll. When we added Paypal and an actual donate button, we started keeping track because it became far easier to track. I often come home from a Roadtrip with stacks of checks, mostly from Hat and T-Shirt sales. They all get combined and in most cases got deposited by my wife Linda, as she handles a lot of those things for me when I tour. Most likely she deposited your check, she has authority to sign for our account and deposit. I may have or may not have signed it, as both of us can, I usually sign them in batches without really noting the list of names. I might come home with 200 checks after a long tour as well as getting mailed payments and occasional donations.

As for your "cryptic" comment about "I know why..." I actually don't. I do recall you left for some time, and I do recall years later I tried to get folks to track down former posters and invite them back. It was effective and many people did in fact come back. By the tone of your post it sounds like you must have disliked something I said or someone else said, but I don't remember whatever it was. I only have time to scan most posts that I look at which is why I quote what I respond to so people know exactly what I am addressing. If you had suggested other ways to generate donations, I still give you the same response: Why not DO it and show how much better it works? Simply criticizing someone else's effort doesn't generate donations, and as I said, if you didn't intend to donate again anyway, why do you even care?

As for the RIP Brian, I agree, it was not good. I told Bob that. He had good intentions but used a poor approach. But thanks to him, 7 people donated who may not have, or who may simply have forgotten about it. I post low key requests because I try to make things free and don't want to hound people. But right now without a corporate sponsor, money is even tighter than normal, so a few hundred dollars makes a big difference to help pay the hosting costs associated with the site and the other related expenses. The upgrade may cost me thousands of dollars, but at least I feel some members want to help and that's enough for me to get things started. So I hired a guy who can help. I have saved up all the money from the past couple years and combined with money out of pocket, I think we can get it all fixed.

Not sure what else to say. I am certainly open to anyone trying a completely different approach to help raise money, but go ahead and do it and let's see if it works rather than just using the idea to belittle someone else's effort. I have no doubt a better approach would work better. It is just that no one else actually did anything.

So thanks for your two donations. Every cent goes directly back to this board.

Wow, Brian ... you didn't even notice my donation in 2007.
I had thought it was a pretty good amount.
My husband and I even got into a disagreement about it, because he thought I should have given less.

Okay -- I've got what this is all about.

Thanks.
Lisa

The past has passed

This is now.

I just don't want to see JPF go the way of The Muse's Muse.

Dear ALL JPF'ers

Little yellow button.....Whether it's officially acknowledged or not. You'll rest easier if you seek it out:-)

And sincere thanks to those who have!!!!!

Please encourage others to do the same.....

I know I can come across as an A-hole in this fundraising campaign of mine.

On the other hand, your phone will never ring with me at the other end asking for money.

Little yellow button....

"One Red Paperclip"..... A lesson I learned here years ago, thanks to JPF!!

Midnite

Lisa,

What it's about? Well, it is about working for 31 years for free or at a deficit to support songwriters and musicians around the world without making it about my music (as so many others did who started similar ventures after us) and bringing over 40K musicians together at events in 49 states and over 40 additional countries so they could network, make friends, share what they do all without any requirements of any kind beyond participating. It's about doing the worlds largest music awards of any kind ever conducted in world history to recognize mostly unknown and under appreciated but still world class talent in over 100 genres of music. We (the collective volunteers) have spent literally years and years an years of time 24/7 screening music round after round flagging the music that moved each of us so that when combined with others around the world and their feelings, we could bring forth the music that collectively moves us the most each year. We don't judge on any other criteria including production, fame, or who pays what for recognition. We've provided over 100,000 performance opportunities for musicians at all levels from people playing live for others for the very first time, to Rock and Roll Hall of Famers, Grammy, Oscar, Emmy, Tony and JPF Music Award winners (and every other small and large music competition including American Idol, Rockstar, The Voice, America's Got Talent and many others, for the sole purpose of building community, networking and sharing music with others who understand what it is like better than any other audience. We've made it possible for countless artists and bands to perform at respected venues which serves to kick start their efforts to tour because venue owners get to see them live often when no other possible circumstances could have gotten them in the door and on that stage. It's about teaching valuable information on all areas of making music, using world class teachers who donate their time, their articles and their expertise, all for free, year after year after year for anyone who asks. It's about mentoring people who need the help and recruiting those with experience to give back, for free when the only time they do it is for us and our members. It's about the wonderful corporate partners we've had who have financially supported us, in some cases for decades, so we could keep doing these things completely for free for 31 years and counting. It's about having one of the longest running message boards where people, often who never get to a live event or even leave their homes can still find community and learn and share their music and passion with each other. Oh, and each year, anywhere from a couple hundred to a couple dozen people give a little donation money back to supplement the sponsor money because they feel like they are getting a lot for nothing and know that those that CAN share a little back, should when it is possible.

Did you think it was about something else?

PS: It seems that you simply want to find fault, problems and disagreement with everything I say or some others say. I am not sure why that is necessary, but if you felt shorted by us for your donation, you should have said something 8 years ago. It is clear you harbor anger over it. I know we sometimes got larger donations (like one person who donated 10K and asked me not to name them unless I wanted to use it to motivate others, but I said I don't want to make people feel bad who can't afford it and the whole idea is no one is forced to give us a dime. Frankly, the most valuable donations we get are those who spend literally 100's of hours screening music Last awards we had over 10K people spend over 10 hours screening music. It may be less this year, but so far we've had people who have screened 10-20 hours of music a week for an entire year. I've spent, on average, 80 hours per week on the music awards, skipped all 10 weeks of my wifes vacation (she spent all but 3 days of it working on the awards) and when I can, I stop in here, usually while entire albums play in the background in these final weeks before nominations. The fact that you donated money twice is wonderful. I have always made it clear that people should not donate money unless they can afford it. I am sorry it caused you problems at home but if you divide the money up over the days, weeks and years you've participated, it comes to a lot less than other activities you might have spent time doing instead. Because we had no process to track donations or T-shirt sales by name, especially when we toured, we found a way to start by using this honor list on the board. By the way, I may not recall the amount of donation, but either I or Linda sent thank you notes to every person who sent money to us if there was contact info included with the donation. After meeting 40K members and countless other people, and all the travel and hours spent on the awards and other JPF activities, I am sorry that your specific donation did not return to you whatever it was you expected in return. We try our best to do as much as we can for people, but we are human and we can only stretch out so thin. So again, my apology for any slight you felt. It isn't something that happens often, but it apparently did in your case.

Brian

Brian,

Thank you for your thank you.

For the record:

1. I mentioned my 2007 donation in order to illustrate a point to Midnite.

2. You came in and insinuated that I had donated only in 2013. I brought up my 2007 donation again, to correct the record.

I said, "I've got what this is all about" because I do -- I get it. You are so busy and overwhelmed with so many important people, you can't possibly be expected to remember a donation like mine. That's fine. Congratulations on all your successes.

Since you called me "cryptic" I will tell you why I thought you'd remember my donation, no matter how measly it was.

Here's the story of my small donation:

I joined JPF in 2006. In 2007, a member pulled up the 4th lyric I had ever written, and started a challenge thread around it, stating something to the effect of, "Let’s see who can write a worse, more cliche-filled lyric than Lisa! Can anyone write one with more cliches? Give it a try!”

JPF members then started writing bad, cliche-filled lyrics, trying to make theirs worse than mine.

I took offense and the whole thread turned ugly. I asked the original poster to please stop the entire thread.

You came in and defended the "Bad Lisa Lyric Challenge Thread," saying I was being too sensitive, because the original poster had agreed to take my name off of it. I had pointed out that it was too late, as everyone had already seen that it was about me, so it was wrong for the mocking to continue.

You got mad when I argued with you over it, and I told you that I was going to leave JPF, but that I appreciated the past year at the forum, and would send you a donation. I sent a donation, and you never thanked me. A few months later, you apparently started a thread, thanking the 2008 donors.

I had only been on the forum a shorter while at that point, so it was a fine donation, given the short amount of time I'd been here.

Lisa

P.S. Brian, in all fairness to you, for a long time I couldn't understand why you didn't defend my lyric being mocked in a challenge. But, one day, in 2011, I re-read my silly lyric and I realized that perhaps you were thinking it was a good way to teach me to write better. This was the lyric of mine that got parodied in the challenge thread:

Just Keep That Piece of Your Heart
©2006 Lisa Gundling

He said goodbye in that usual way,
But I was caught off guard,
not sure what to say.
His eyes were wet and his voice it cracked,
As he said let’s part, let’s not look back.
And honey, he said, I did love you,
And there’s a piece of my heart that belongs to you.

Well I wiped my eyes, for they were moist,
and I heard myself say, in a small, scared voice:

CHORUS
No darlin’ just keep that piece of your heart,
‘Cause I don’t want it, that one small part.
Yea I’m holdin’ out for the whole darn thing,
A nice full heart…and maybe a ring.

Well we argued a while about that piece,
And I dragged it on home like a burdened beast.
I went to a surgeon to have it removed,
But he just laughed, seemed real amused.
My shrink checked it out while I sat cryin’,
Removal, he said, takes lots of pryin’.

Seems the longer I had it, the more it weighed,
so I placed an ad in the personal page…

I’m single and burdened with a heavy heart,
‘Cause some guy left me with an extra part.
If you’re a single guy with parts to spare,
Then don’t you call me – oh don’t you dare.

REPEAT CHORUS

Well time went by, and I got a reply,
From a nice full heart in a real nice guy.
He was able to remove that extra part,
The one that burdened my heavy heart.
Then he gave me his heart, and he gave me his ring,
Yea I got it all, yea the whole darn thing.

Just couldn’t stop dwellin’ on that one small part—
Was weighin’ me down like a heavy heart…

Lisa?

I don't venture into the "critiquing" Forums, because I find that I often word things improperly.

It's a shame that someone "personally" insulted your writing there when you were just getting started here. That was very unkind!!! I would have either blown a gasket or crawled into a hole and never offered another lyric!

It's a tough "biz", ain't it:-)

As I've told you via PM's, you and I will seldom agree on anything, but in this instance, now that you've basically bared your JPF Soul in sharing this....

May the record state that I, Midnite, agree with Lisa!!! Gosh, never thought I'd say that:-)

Lisa? You have improved so much as a writer since you've been here, but more importantly!!! You have continued to help others improve via the Critiquing Forums.

Thanks!

Midnite

Lisa,

((((((hugs)))))))

I remember how bad you felt and remember me and Richard Blum (we knew him as Rittman then) were trying to be helpful. It's so weird how some people can say hurtful things like that and not even realize it, until it is spelled out for them.

Rereading your lyric, I realize I love songs that literalize 'the heart' metaphor to some degree like yours does (I did that in a couple of mine). Your lyric reads like an innocent country song from the fifties or early sixties, sweetly humorous in its literalizing of the heart metaphor, and in those terms I think it succeeds quite well..

And the thing is..rereading this..it's really not cliche ridden at all. You took some heart cliches literally and built a story around them, and that makes any cliches in the song..necessary..to drive the narrative..as silly (but fun, dammit!) as that narrative may be..

Mike

Hey Mike Z!

I think of you often and hope you're as well as can be expected!!

Lisa and Brian...Two souls with a common goal...Keeping JPF running.

Both of them have my most sincerest respect for the time they've taken to write out their latest posts on this thread!

As one who doesn't always word things in a "kind" way, I always try to re-read what I've written.... Lisa and Brian both called me out on it recently:-)

There are so many times that I wish I had phrased something more kindly than I did, that I read every post, and look for the effort to be honest, and try to ignore anything anyone says, with black words on a white background that may be difficult to take in because we're not face to face with "vocal" inflections.

Once we write something and post it, well, it's out there, ya know?

Lisa called me out on a few of my missteps. Brian, via PM's has told me where I went over the line on the Political Forum...But I haven't been there in over a month because I realized that I had crossed a few lines there.

Lisa pointed them out, here...Well intentioned, no harm, no foul.

We ALL(most of us JPFers at least) have the best of intentions, at least that's what I choose to believe!!!

Midnite

P.S...Okay I've now posted twice here without mentioning that little yellow button:-) Please don't expect a third post without that mention....What a nag, eh?

And regardless of all that, the discussions and heartfelt "exchanges" here warm my heart!!!!

Think of the extraneous comments by me and others as fitting into a different but viable "model" for fundraising..as that of the "telethon" --where you do a bit of asking for donations, then tell an an anecdote or sing a song..

Did I ever tell ya of the time I almost married my cousin in Las Vegas?

Stolen from a Jerry Jeff Walker song titled "Stoney".

Midnite:-)

Thanks for the reality check Mike Z:-)

P.S... Just occurring to me while on the road with an iPhone and appreciate appreciating the suggestion!!!

In a telethon, there's always an "800" number scrolling across the screen with operators waiting to answer.

Here, all we have is a little yellow button...

So you see my difficulty:-)

Looking forward to your thoughts on how to best address this;-)

Any and all thoughts(from anyone) are appreciated!!!

Thanks!!!!

First off, I never claimed you ONLY made a donation in 2013. But I did point out your name WAS listed as a donor in 2013 because you failed to mention it, whether on purpose or by accident.

Next, I did some searches on Google to find this back and forth to see exactly what was said to who and why. Please point out the post since I find no record when searching for that song title on jpfolks.com. It doesn't mean it isn't there, but I have no memory of anything going down just as you describe. BUT!!!! All of this does jog a memory of what happened before you left. The reason you said you left to me came down to one specific comment I made:

I said you were in a "PISSING MATCH" with another member you were arguing with and you said that term was so offensive to you, that you left. The rest of what you claim above is some sort of weird revisionist history or if it had something to do with you leaving, you didn't tell me that, you blamed it squarely on that comment.

For many years I had great instant recall of names, events, songs, faces and was known for my incredible near photographic and audible memory. But 3 major strokes took a bite out of it and without some help (i.e. time frame, location... something...) to jog my memory, it's hard to recall stuff like that as well as I used to. But this HAS reminded me and though I can't find the post in question (even google has it's limits on a site with over a 100 million of pages of text) I remember the quote and your angry reception to it clear as day. And frankly, that common statement is so non offensive to people unless they simply want to be offended by something, I always thought it was a dumb reason to leave a place that had been so supportive of you. And I do also remember, after you mentioned it above, that you said you were going to send a donation, but it wasn't one made in appreciation, but instead it was some type of "statement" move you wanted to make as you left. The fact that it got deposited along with other donations and sales checks should be irrelevant. Do you honestly expect me to recall every single piece of mail and every detail of every donation on top of everything else, for the past 31 years? Seriously? And you failed to mention that all such donations received thank you emails, directly if contact info was included, or generally via the newsletter where we regularly thanked contributors. If the money was given in sincerity, there shouldn't be any additional expectation of reciprocation and it's just ridiculous for you to expect people to remember all that. And if Linda received it, how would she know that Lisa Gundling was supposed to receive some additional special acknowledgment? And why is it that when you have an argument with someone else, you end up turning it around on me? Wasn't it Bob you were mad at first?

And if you can find anyone who has met me in person who suggests I don't treat everyone, whether they are unknown or famous, or for that matter, friendly or a jerk to me, the same and offer them equal time on stage as everyone else, equal recognition in our music awards, equal coverage in our newsletter or anywhere else, or equal ability to post on this board, please bring them forward. Otherwise, please acknowledge that your statement is neither factual nor fair in the face of 31 years of records that prove the opposite is true.

Hey Midnite,

How about a combined Telethon/Auction thread?

Maybe some members are poor, but have something they might want to put up for auction, and then folks could bid on it, and the proceeds could go to JPF? Who would pay for the shipping, though?

Maybe some members have a service they could auction and those proceeds, etc, etc..

I'd be willing to produce a song for a JPFer and have that money go directly to JPF. Maybe some other producers would want to do that too? Several of us (including myself) have donated money this year, but I'd be willing to donate a free demo, and I wonder if any others would? Either by auction or set price..we're just spitballin' at this point.

The Telethon part of the deal would be..I don't know..the main idea is, somebody NEW starts a "post" in the Telethon/auction thread, and starts talking about WHATEVER they want, then slowly weaving JPF into the conversation and all the fun this place has given them, and then the "little yellow button" spiel near the end, which is the equivalent of the "1-800 number" part of the speech..

Maybe it could be done like a game of tag..cuz the idea is it's a TELETHON, and somebody has to always be on "stage."

Being a Telethon, we would need to set a GOAL of how many donations we want to see. Thirty? Fifty?

How long should the Telethon/Auction stay open? How about until the goal is reached?

So those are my initial thoughts..

Peace be with you, my good brotha from anotha motha..

PS..nothing beats Jerry Lewis, in his prime, cigarette in hand, sweat on brow, filibustering on the television soundstage for his "kids"..you can be Jerry!

Mike, that is a good idea.
I'd be willing to produce a demo for someone for a reasonable donation (say $40-50) to JPF.

Vic

Brian,

I have no idea how to find the threads from back then, other than handpicking through it.

And right — your memory is correct. I got very upset when you said I was having a pissing contest. I thought it was inappropriate language to use toward a member, as I’d never heard a business person talk to his members that way. I did ask for an apology, but that wasn’t the reason I left. I believe I laid out a bunch of bulleted points, a couple of times.

I had assumed, at that time, that you would think it would be inappropriate for a member to start a brand new thread, the subject being, the mocking of someone else’s lyric. But, you repeatedly said that mocking a lyric in that manner was no big deal. You did say it would be a problem if I had been personally attacked. Since I wasn’t personally attacked, the matter was moot, in your eyes.

That challenge thread lyric had many complications. I had written the lyric in 2006. In 2007, another member pulled it up and rewrote it for me. Then, another member started the cliche challenge thread, with the mocking of the lyric. I expressed my distaste, and the member who started the challenge thread took my name off of it. But, the cliche lyrics continued, which I thought was insulting. Two days later, I asked for the original poster to please have the thread removed.

Then, all hell broke loose, as only JPFers can do it.

And you’re right about the donation, too … I thought about it and realized I didn’t say I was giving the donation in appreciation. I did say, in a very sarcastic manner, that I was going to donate to JPF so you could fix the site. I had been trying to figure out how to remove myself as a member, and I found that there was no way to remove my name. I called JPF “Hotel California” because once you get here, you can never leave. (Well, your name can never leave.) I then said , sarcastically, that I’d donate, to help you fix that.

I did not purposely leave out my place on the 2013 Donation Honor Roll. I had been talking to Midnite, and he kept mentioning the honor roll. I made the assumption that he saw my 2013 donation. He could not have known of donations prior to 2008, so I brought that one up.

Finally, you asked why I turned this argument on you. Well, honestly, I thought I was talking to Bob on this thread. But suddenly, YOU appeared on this thread, talking to ME!!

I believe that you have mentored tons of people wonderfully and have been kind and gracious. But, that simply was not my experience with that situation. I was a brand new writer, and I felt my work was unfairly parodied and mocked. You called me thin skinned at the time, and that was true.

Also, Brian, I think that you have built a wonderful organization over the years and you have worked very hard, and you should feel proud.

Lisa

Midnite,

Thanks so much. I sent you a PM. I appreciate that you've followed this thing through and you're keeping it honest. In retrospect, it would have been nice of me to PM you directly, instead of doing this on the forum.

Lisa

Mike Z.,

Your past kindnesses to me have never been forgotten. I think you're a decent guy to the core. You really put yourself out there on my behalf when you didn't have to. Thank you.

And yes, Ritt's, kindnesses, too. He and I remained in touch for a while after I left. He really disliked what had occurred on that thread. RIP Ritt.

Also, I'm glad you liked the lyric -- lol! Thanks so much! Even though it was silly, it had a special meaning to me, so I think that's why I found the mocking challenge thread particularly stinging.

Also, that’s a really wonderful fundraising idea!

Lisa

Vic,

Very cool that you're in on Mike Z.'s fundraising idea! I also really like your $5 - $10 membership idea!

Lisa

Gosh, Lisa, you mean that I'm not the only one who sometimes fails at perfection:-)

That is very comforting to know:-)

I'm thankful for our interaction here! I've found that if folks take enough time, and considerate effort, they can learn to simply avoid their differences, and find their commonalities.

Maybe it's time we all figure out the best way to continue the Little Yellow Button Campaign on a "fresh start" thread?

Ok, I'll start the new one, and trust others to help follow up and continue:-)

And again, thanks to ALL who've been following along and helping out in any way they're able.

Midnite

P.S..."We're all in this together"