JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Advice on co-writing

I don't usually co-write but I have someone interested in recording one of my songs, but he wants to change the tune a bit. I'm expecting he will want to claim a co-write. Will this cause me problems down the road, I already have this song registered with my PRO under my publishing company. showing me as 100% writer of both lyrics and music. First time facing this, any advice will be appreciated.

Everyone thinks their baby is beautiful...

Co-writing is not worth the headache, just don't do it.
Besides, if you write a hit, everyone will cover and plagiarize it anyway.

If you think this co-writer can take your song into the magic land of success........why not? If you don't think he can take it any further than you can yourself then don't. Its really about what they have on their resume unless you just want to share with a friend co-writer or take some gambles. I would think the best chance for significant success is having an notable artist that has heard your song and wants to record it rather than someone just modifying your song for their own desires. Having said that, request hearing their music and investigate their talents--then you can make a better decision...........

steady-eddie

There is a saying in Nashville...it's better to own 25% of something, than 100% of nothing.

You may want to listen to his 'change' of the 'tune' and see if your judgment is that it is a true improvement.

You do not have to accept their change if you do not feel it is in your interest to do so.

You can refuse their 'offer' to 'cover' your Song.

You can refuse to accept their 'change' as having any bearing on 'Co-Writer' status, allowing them to make the change as they 'cover' the Song, but documenting their agreement that no 'Co-Write' authority is transferred to them. You remain 100% owner of Song-Writing Royalties.

Registration with your Performance Rights Organization (PRO) is Registration of the title, affiliated with the name of the Song-Writer(s) and Publisher(s)

What you Register for Copyright with your Government, Canadian Intellectual Property Office (CIPO) is a Lyric and the Melody to which the words are sung.

It was a practice a few years ago to get a Song-Writer to let an 'artist' who wanted to 'cut' and 'release' the Song-Writer's Intellectual Property, to change a word in the Lyric, thereby cutting them in as a co-writer, co-author of the Song, and giving them the right to a share, generally agreed upon in 'negotiations' as a 50% share of the Song-Writing Royalties. Most Song-Writers agree, as the opportunity to get the Song to market where it might earn Royalties is 'lucrative' in possibility, possibly financially. It could become a 'credential', opening other doors to the market for an unknown Song-Writer. A 'credentialed' Song-Writer may have more leverage in their next 'negotiation'.

The Publishing Royalties also take a bite from the Song-Writer as their share earned by getting the Song to market, whether they do anything more or not. Their 'negotiation' may be asking for 100% of Publishing Royalties, or 70%, for an unknown Song-Writer, again, generally grateful for consideration, and not careful about the terms of this 'transfer' of 'ownership' and just what a Publishing Company is going to do to earn those Rights.

A Reversion Clause in a Publishing 'deal', a 'contract', specifies the time during which the Publisher promises to work to get the Song to market. If the time expires, the contract ends, the Publisher no longer has any legal rights to the Publishing Royalties and the Song-Writer owns 100% of Song-Writing Royalty rights, and 100% of Publishing Royalty rights, and is free to find another Publisher.

If the change is significant, in your judgment, you may negotiate a share, a percentage of Song-Writing Royalty rights, to THAT version of the Song, should it ever get to market and earn Royalties. Those rights could be contractually specified as ending in a specified time frame, if the Song doesn't get to market within three years, for example.

Ideally, a 'cover' version, with the variations the 'cover' artist wants to make, their 'interpretation' of your Song, does not need co-writer status. Only a very significant change or contribution to the Song would merit assigning 'rights' to the 'cover artist', in my opinion.

Commercial engagement is complicated. Your 'company' is engaging in commerce with his 'company'. His company may engage with a third party, a Publisher, a label, which entangles you as a 'partner' in the ownership of the IP. All of you would have to agree on assignment of Publishing Rights, Producer Points maybe, and the 'share percentages to each. The more parties involved the more likely you need a lawyer to help you think through your end of things.

WoW! A lot to think about. I thank you all for chiming in.

In the high stakes world of indie, sound click sitting songwriting , it probably makes little difference if somebody collabs with you . So if your thinking about the fiscal side of it, just give it to him, pay check will be the same.

If it's a matter of integrity and believing in your own statements, and that you are an artist and the whole point of it is for you to write the song, then don't.

Cowriting is neither good nor bad, if you can't do lyric and melody well then cowriting is a must . If you can, it might be a barrier

I have done cowrites before it's never better than what I can do myself, no braggadocio involved

I can and enjoy writing to a musical track, where I get to name it, and find a lyric and melodic life in it .

I enjoy that quite a bit but those opportunities don't come along often . If the track is not structured and thought out it can be a waste of time too

This guy likes your song enough to cut it, if he can make a few changes to the melody?

For crying out loud, let him do it. Accumulating indie cuts is not a bad thing. Unless this guy is gonna record his album in his shed, at the very least, you'll have a pro recorded version of your tune.

If it turns out well, you can pitch it.

Plus, you can have this exchange:

"What do you like to do?"
"Write songs"
"Where can I hear em?"
"Download em from Amazon. They've been recorded by quite a few people".

It's not so much a matter of vanity as it is having something to show for your efforts...someone liked your work enough to record it.

If I were you, I'd listen to the guy who's had nearly 20 indie cuts.

I'll bet Marc Barnette would say the same thing.


Ps rewatch the Seinfeld episodes where NBC offers Jerry and George a modest sum for their pilot script.
George holds out for more money because of "artistic integrity".

Get real.

Even if their pilot flopped, they could at least tell another network they once had a pilot made.

Or, another way to look at it...you're 40 years old and a woman you're interested in asks about your exes.

"I don't have any exes."

Hmm...no woman has ever been interested in you? You must be a real humdinger!!

Between Dom's quote and Robert's final post, I think that you have some realistic advice Everett.

Yeah Couch one of the selling points of those pick up artist books was to appear like you have gotten a lot of women, which is why rock stars and athletes can get whatever they want cause it's understood that they do....not that I've ever read one of those books ...

Seinfeld is up there as one of my favorites of all time right with the Honeymooners and Texi.

And they were pitching a show about nothing, and the show was about nothing...worked

Imagine pitching a song about nothing

All I'm saying is asking a question like this, as a member here, should give us some clues....

Hello everybody, heard my name mentioned. Hey couch.

Yeah you pretty much have it here as it is. The question would be "What are you doing with it now? and "could this person help you get it somewhere you couldn't yourself? And yes, you would probably need to re-register it including him as a co-writer if he suggests it. And you should ask him and get some information before you go much farther. Communication is the key.

Look, here is the reality. Most songs, even some major songs, don't earn a lot of money, no matter what. With streaming and the way today music is with millions and billions of songs out there, and endless things down and uploaded today, so money is almost not even involved any more. It's about track record and activity with someone taking something places that you can't go.
If you are satisfied with what you have and it goes against your grain to have him do anything, you can tell him to take it or leave it. If it is something that can be put in front of people you wouldn't ordinarily do, then what is that worth to you?
What if he was to revamp it a bit, record it, put it on his web site, social media, and take it to a place with a life of it's own.

Today it's very hard to get anyone to even listen to anything that they are not a creative part of. If that means we have to share things, that is simply the cost of doing business. There are many artists over the years, that were cut in on the writers share of a song even if they didn't do anything. But that gave incentive for the artist or their teams, to actually take more interest and work the songs.
You just don't know.

I wish it was like the "old days" where everyone gets his/her due and it all comes out for everyone. Those days are gone and in my opinion never really existed. IT's why there are so many writers artists, and musicians from eras past are still fighting and suing to get rights on things done 20.30.40 plus years ago. There are still some Beatles songs that are not cleared with the Beatles organization. You don't have much of netgotions in your early career.

Consider what you gain, and what it's worth to you. My two cents? Do it. But that is just me.

MAB

Hi Marc. One of these days I need to PM you for some business advice. A small amount. 😀

Perhaps I'm assuming too much...
It doesn't sound to me like Everett really knows this guy. If the guy was a real "Pro", Everett would already have an idea of where he wants to take the song. This all seems very "random" to me, and talk of "shares" is putting the cart way ahead of the horse at this point.

Do you already have a working relationship with this guy, Everett? Do you even know what he's capable of?

Enquiring anonymous nobodies online want to know... Lol

I don't know this guy personally but he has put out a fair number of albums, not sure his success rate. He is a good singer and good with music. He's mostly into gospel music. This song is gospel. He heard my song on one of my sites and said he'd like to try it. I've heard his rough version and I do like it. I'll wait to hear his terms before making a decision. I have 2200 gospel songs but each one is like your child and you want what is best for each child. LOL

Everett,

Sharing is a virtue, being possessive is not. Just do it as this guy is from what you say......... is experienced and devoted and will probably increase your chances for success. But more importantly, you may enjoy and develop a positive experience and if you don't.......probably not to much real damage to worry about. The main concern I would have would just be is this person talented, if not, then don't involve your music with him.

Hmmmm... Well, I guess the real question is, "Is his version better?"
Subjectivity doesn't lend itself to certitude...

Only you can decide when it's time to kick that baby outta' the nest

For the record, it's easy for me to relate to a recording artist interjecting his own "style" into someone else's song... Especially a singer.

Dude, take the deal.

Come on, man!









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