JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum New Music Creation Tool Changes Everything

Hi folks,

Swinging by here to alert lyricists and musicians to a new tool that will change the face of demo making, making good demos at the drop of a hat, and all that the creator needs to do is specify, in a written prompt, what is wanted in said demo.

Here's a Country Music snippet:

https://www.udio.com/songs/coixNX1gnJ1oWT8z2LQddk

Everything you hear was created in Udio.

Lyricists will be happy to know that custom lyrics, your lyric, can be inserted as part of a written prompt; but the AI fairs just as well by simply telling it the kind of lyric and theme you want.

Using Udio is easy. A third grader could figure it out. Results range from "meh" to "fantastic" and "good" seems to be average.

The online AI software creates in 32 second increments and lets the user extend a song up to 5 minutes or so.

This effectively replaces competes with "good" demo makers and demos like the kind I used to make. It will not replace a $500-1000 demo in that the audio quality (so far) is not as good as one can get from a good recording studio and staff. Content wise? I am impressed with the music and vocals (and lyrics) it creates and I think you will be too!

I can imagine this could be an invaluable tool for the Couches and FDemetrios among us.

Is this cheating? I am not posting this to start a debate, but I can understand how AI like this can produce passionate responses both positive and negative. All I can say is, isn't curation really a form of creation? Udio works by giving you two choices--it creates two 32 second samples at-a-time, and you choose which one you like or reject both and start over, not to mention you kick off the whole process by specifying exactly what you want with written words. In working/creating this way, one guides the song towards the specific vision of the creator.

To me, a tool like this is fantastic and will truly aid lyricists who have a musical "vision" but not the means to see that vision fulfilled.

At least swing by their site and check out what others are doing with it, after only a few days of Udio being available to the public:

https://www.udio.com/

Also, there are already several good tutorials up on youtube...

One drawback may be...in an extended song...how well can it retain the form of earlier sections? This has been the main bane with other music AI up to now. This Americana-sounding-song seems to retain the same form from beginning to end:

https://www.udio.com/songs/jGjYfsRosZjYTkSBdFgEyF

Oh, and BTW....it is absolutely FREE, for the time being, while it is in "beta"......


Cheers,

Mike

God no. Why do we need this if Band in a box is so good,? What's that? It wasn't that good,?

It's likely no different than somebody who doesn't have a vision for their song, buying band in a box, and then saying oh wait a minute, I suck.

The main thing all of this stuff fails to answer is this ... If you are not a songwriter, why do you feel compelled to be one?

I mean is there a software that can make me a great basketball player?

If somebody created a piece of artwork, from ai what exactly did they do? They bought software.

I know your not touting this, as anything else but a tool. But the truth is we have had ai in music for decades.music hasn't gotten better it's gotten worse.

Can it help a lyricist? Possibly, what it's more likely to do is teach them why their lyrics are nothing better than what a software would write

It will be self critiquing.

It in the end it won't be any better than band In a box. Just won't need any musical knowledge.

I agree I don't think a tool like this will make music, as a whole, better. Never said that. People with nothing interesting to say will continue to make uninitesting songs, not even with brain probes filching it out of their frontal lobes. And I imagine this is the majority of folks...

But a tool like this could be valuable for that small Venn Diagram overlap of musicians/lyricists who actually DO have interesting ideas but no way to get them out there. Just sayin'...

AND...I must say...it's hella fun to play with.

Holy Crap...

The sample sounded good out of the box. It certainly conveyed the song as a demo.

This will allow big artists to invite their fans to enter contests to "write" a song for them.
That will put the girl at the trailer park, who cant play any instrument, can't even hum a tune...in the game.
An already deluged universe of songs will swell to the quadrillions.

A couple of days ago, a company named ICON announced AI software that can design houses from a handful of verbal commands...and tragically, the houses look good enough to compete with the builder houses out there now. Maybe better.

Doomsday?

A great swath of humanity is about to lose its job to AI at the same time that debt and mismanagement could devolve the economy into a generational contraction.
I just dont know. Kind of glad that I am old.

Personal strategy:
Learn how to add AI to my skill sets and see where it leads.

Thanks for the info Mike

Marty

Absolutely. There has always been standouts where tech enabled them. Even the days of casio with built in drum machine, ohhhhh. Some people could do great stuff with.

Id be willing to try it, to just to see how different their take would be to mine.

I guess the question for me is, how will the created part in ai compare to the created part by human.

I kinda doubt it will be any better than the collabs we hear here.

fame and fortune.
AI gonna make me a songwritin' star.
(It can't make me be able to throw a pass forty yards and thread a needle, so starting NFL quarterback is out of reach)
But once I write my first big hit, then ima gonna live in them Hollywood Hills.

Disagree Mike,
AI and digitization appears limitless.
Ultimately, you could tell the dumbest kid in a 3rd grade class to recite 3 ideas into a speaker. AI will take that and ultimately draw from an infinite body of associations and then... intelligence-ize whatever drivel the kid spoke and upgrade it to Shakespeare.

There is nothing, no nuance of emotion that can't be charted, graphed, inter-related and emulated.

We are relatively primitive human animals who got to see the nascent beginnings of something limitless.

In a way I guess all industries get hit by this stuff. Used to need to be a tax lawyer to do taxes. Now any idiot can do it.

Architects could be out of work if ai could design a building.

Surgeons could be out of work with ai.

Just seems like with art, you are not making art if a machine does it.

Fortunately, music has gotten worse as tech got better. In almost every way it's gotten worse.

But I want to see one of our lyrics only people do something with this.

And I might try it myself to see if it's better than me

Marty,

Will a person with "nothing interesting to say" be able to "see" the "interesting" idea in a multiple choice?

Maybe sometimes, I guess, but my point is that "meh" taste will choose the "meh" answer in the multiple choice, most of the time.

One has to be able to see/know what is "interesting" to be able to choose the interesting choice.

Of course, in that Venn Diagram, there's an overlap of folks who can't generate interesting ideas, but know one when they see it--I'll give you that. I just think the majority of folks fail to generate interesting stuff cuz they can't "envision" it to begin with nor would they know it if it hit them with a ten foot pole, because of their..."envisioning" problem.

BTW thanks, and good to know you're (otherwise) doing alright.

Nice. Thanks for this info! I'd like to see some JPF folk try it and post results.
Bill

Why don't you try it?

So this entire song was created by ai? It wrote the lyrics too,?

Dom, in regards lyrics, no way to know for certain, since custom lyrics can override AI lyric generation. What I DO know is this: The AI lyric generation in Udio is generally very good, using recent LLM's comparable to ChatGPT-4.

The music is 100% Udio...

I'll give a try...see if I can get something.
Bill

Dom...

I prompted Udio with this:

a song with the form of verse, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, outro, about a man named Ehf DeMeetrio from New Jersey who frequents an online lyric forum and cracks wise with other members, often being a pain-in-the-ass but having some endearing qualities too. The singer should have a raw, gravelly texture that reflects years of experience and emotion. His vocal range is impressive, often spanning from a deep, low resonant baritone to powerful, raspy high

Dom, note: you can't name specific artists, but as you can see, I was describe your hero's voice...


--and got these two initial 32 sec samples:

https://www.udio.com/songs/eXspAq4p3bzCyWeS7D7bQz

[Verse 1]
Ehf from Jersey, screen's glowin’ bright
Thumbs flyin' fast, keystrokes light up the night
He’s tossin' barbs in the forum's ring
A devil with words, his sarcasm stings
[Verse 2]
But DeMeetrio's got a heart beneath
Cracks in his armor, gold lies underneath


https://www.udio.com/songs/iZTgVXwaupFvQmTadjCsgC

Cruisin' down the digital streets (Streets so wild)
Ehf DeMeetrio with his wise-crack feats (Jersey child)
Typing fast, his humor's vast, a lightning storm
Online bard, his words so hard, they break the norm
In the forum's glow he takes the stage (On the screen)
Throwing jabs in every post with cunning age (Virtual scene)


This took three minutes processing time. Took me longer to write the prompt. Udio wrote the words and music. I could theoretically expand on these two initial snippets, both forward and backwrd, prompting it for a chorus, etc...I think you get the idea...

Shall we remove the lyrics people from this forum?

Not my point.
My point is that someone can input..."I miss my tuxedo cat"
And AI will be able to add a higher level of "intelligence" to the content prompt and arrive at something very good in a few seconds.

It appears limitless. And it will expand on itself.

It's better than some lyrics , that is to say where lyrics don't really matter anyway, just so long as it says something at all.

Just having an idea for song is not writing a song though.

I suspect it will come down to how good the melody and music is, as most music does for most people anyway

The snippet itself sounds like a karaoke version of a song

But I'm not sure why this excites people, it make me sad, what are we doing writing any more?

I think I understand your point better, now. It appears you have put a lot more thought into where this all ends up. More than I have. I have simply been content to have fun with this stuff, and do see it as useful to some.

I can understand how your thoughtful foresight leads you to worry. But, to use your example, even though the "democratization of the arts" can certainly elevate a 5-year-old's work to something more sophisticated, the 5-year-old will probably still like the sillier choices in the multiple choice format being supplied by the AI, and ultimately it's the 5-year-old in charge, making the decisions of where to take the song.

All this eerily parallels "The Fermi Paradox" about why there aren't extraterrestrials here, given their likelihood--if the democratization of the arts means that everyone can do it, and then there should be a glut of great stuff...then where is it?

Maybe it's too early to answer this with any certainty. But I think the creative types will have an edge, in an AI future, and the balance of good-to-bad work will not change significantly:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joemck...ation-to-the-next-level/?sh=60b351837d07

Don't be sad.

Mess around with Udio a little bit, maybe it comes up with something YOU LOVE that you would never have thought of, yourself! Then go to work on it "old school style" developing that musical/lyrical idea further. You might find it's a nice tool and can be a springboard...

Yeah drumloops can do the same thing. A beat can spark an idea easily.

And it's been around a long time.

For that matter, s guitar player today doesn't have to listen to a record 200 times to learn a song part, now they can go on YouTube and find somebody showing you.

I I guess my biggest opposition is somebody new starting off doing this.

I mean anybody can dream up a crazy song idea, but it used to take talent and craft to make it a reality.

I may enter some of my hundreds of spare lyrics to see if there melody is better.

Or if it points me in a direction.

Ideas can come from hitting random articles on wiki, where you never would have come up with it otherwise. So it's accidental often too

I think your example the lyrics would have to be tweaked but an idea could be there.

I don't think harmony and arrangement will be very good, which often makes the listening experience

Sounds like a boring way to create music. And I use the word "create" doubtfully. My publisher won't even accept any music that use AI tech in anyway. Sad day for composers, because I'm sure a lot of opportunities will be lost for real composers.

John

John,

I am someone who takes pride in being able and enjoying a myriad of ways to compose. From "the void," from a musical cell, from a lyric idea, from having a "message," from seeing the "song-in-its-entirety-all-at-once," and I can say that this, for me, is a fun way to create. And yes, "create" may be the wrong word here, since the AI is generating ideas, some of which I don't specifically ask for. But I usually enter the creative experience "on-the-lookout" for left field ideas that I wouldn't normally think of, so I have an openness to that that perhaps others don't?

Anyway, I don't think this will be a threat to "real composers" anymore than a drum machine was to drummers.

Let's just imagine that AI CAN, eventually, AID in the creation of really good stuff...who wouldn't want that? Really good stuff that might NEVER have existed, without AI help...

Sincerely,

Mike

Therein lies the problem John, how would anyone know if it was ai generated? Particularly if you took the ideas and played and recorded that

I don't think the intricacies of composing can be reduced to ai. It's ai, trailing us humans.

But the more I've thought about it, the more I realize that song stimulating devices and gadgets and techniques has been around for ever

And listen to the radio...it sucks

I think we'll see a new wave of writers who use it to overcome writers block.

Great artists will always be a step ahead of ai doing it by itself

I have to sign an agreement not to use AI in any music I submit to my publisher. Anyone caught using it will be dropped immediately.

Most popular music is stolen from Bach.

I'm not sure if anybody could be caught using ai, cause it's one and done. And it changes every time you use it.

Nobody really knows where any songwriter gets his ideas from, although the smoking gun says from other artists

Stones stole their ideas.

I'm not worried yet that song created is not better than what I can do.

But it is a bit disturbing

Interesting, John. The Audiosparx catalogue, of which I have several dozen pieces, went into partnership with Stability AI to use it's (Audiosparx's) audio and meta-data for the creation of Stability AI's (rather inferior) musical AI.

Your publisher banning AI is probably about wanting to avoid the "gray area" of copyright w/regards to AI aidied/created music at present.

No such issues with "self-publishing" though, or Audiosparx or youtube for that matter...

It's not Audiosparx. This publisher is devoted to real composed and produced music. And they assure their clients of that. Good to see you back Michael!

Best, John

John, perhaps there's some confusion here...the music I have at Audiosparx was music I composed myself and music I produced myself, back in 2014, before the advent of AI music/art programs. I can't speak of how others create/created their music there. I only mention them because they seem to be a music publisher open to AI, since their entire catalogue was used by Stability AI just recently, for a price, no doubt, in the creation of "Stability Music AI." And that MY music must have gone into the creation of Stability AI, since it's a tiny part of Audiosparx's vast catalogue.

I should've been clearer: I haven't published with them in ten years. I just mentioned them because they appear to be open to music that sounds good no matter how it was created. I could be wrong, but it would be weird they'd offer their entire catalogue to a third party to create an AI music program (for a price) but then turn around and tell the composers and artists they publish "no using AI in your work!"

As to "being back" this is a one-off...just wanting to share some information and hopefully there's folks that can find Udio useful. That was my sole intent, here.

It's interesting all the different "takes" on AI. Generally speaking, I find most "creative" people welcome it cuz they see how it can be useful, and also how democratizing these things can't be all bad, in the bigger picture.

I'm all for an AI aided cure for cancer and finding the sublime in art and music, no matter HOW it's created.

Mike

Could be doomsday if a (rogue member/s of a) world power w/nukes thinks it's their mandate to stop the advance of AI at all costs, and so decides to set-in-motion the nuking of the entire planet back into the Middle Ages. Look for this movie on Netflix in the coming months, haha.

Progress will have its work-force causalities. Always has, dating back to the discovery of "the wheel" and those bitter early cavemen, embracing their summertime sleds to the bitter end.

I'm sure there's many a bitter "animator" out there; though if you work for Disney, they will have jobs for you (as they've embraced AI), as "animators" have an edge learning AI animation over those who don't know the first thing about drawing or the creation of animated films.

Same, I'm sure with Architecture AI. Your prior architectural knowledge gives you an edge. I'd at least like to think?

I think your "personal strategy" is a good one. Can't hurt...You could wind up finding the AI useful in your work. You'd be in charge of it, not the other way around, don't forget that...

My main concern is youth have their taste in music formed at a young age . That's why us middle agers are stuck on old music.

But if they grow up on ai, might be no going back.

Hopefully they keep music programs in school alive

bottom line, if you have great songs your gonna be ok. We need to get better.

Bad or mediocre stuff will be harder than ever to get heard.

IAi won't write bohemian Rhapsody, I can guarantee that, at least not for long time.

Maybe rick is right, if you can't copyright ai, it can't ruin the music business

https://www.youtube.com/live/97iMxC3FF6E?si=EZF13Zb1OtD9jglC

Each site membership has different copyright policies; most, if not all, have paying "subscriptions" where you own what is created with the software. "Own" as in owning "the copyright." This is true of Udio's main competition Suno. Suno's monthly subscription is a paltry ten bucks monthy, but I cancelled cuz Udio is much better, and free at the moment, but I imagine might be a little more, eventually.

If some AI software developers used uncleared music to train their AI, there certainly could be lawsuits or at least out-of-court settlements, but by-and-large, these AI developer platforms abide by the rules and when a consumer buys a subscription, he/she owns what is created and one can feel free to use it how one pleases.

The only problem with Rick's video is it's over 4 months old, and that's eons in terms of AI development. Music AI has advanced a great deal since then, and I await Mr. Beato's reaction to Udio music.

But I will give his video a look/see. I imagine he is speculating about how he feels AI creations should NOT be allowed a copyright. I find these conversations really interesting and I imagine he makes a persuasive argument.

Yes, this is no-brainer stuff. Who will the democratization of the arts threaten most? Why, those companies/labels who want ownership and control over them. I mean, if I created software that could grow edible crackers in an inexpensive "digital petri dish" extension to your smartphone and made the source code available to all so that most every phone owner could have free food, I am sure Nabisco would manufacture a legal argument against such an endeavor and attempt to block my doing so. With the cracker business decentralized, Nabisco would be up in arms. Far fetched but you get my point.

This whole process starts umteen years ago with the advent of digital streaming, and the ability of unsigned artists to monetize their creations themselves on streaming sites like youtube. The argument against seems like the same ol' sour grapes. Streaming is very popular. Making art with AI is, too...

I personally just enjoy using new tools. It's hella fun. I think the best art comes from getting up every morning and looking forward to making stuff. It's the only thing really keeping me enjoying life, as much as one can in these trying times...

"I think the best art comes from getting up every morning and looking forward to making stuff. It's the only thing really keeping me enjoying life, as much as one can in these trying times" - Michael

I'll second that Michael! Interesting topic!

Best, John

Not talking about that level of doomsday Mike.
Such is the purview of others that post here.

I'm wondering about a convergence of mismanaged govt treasuries across the globe and the threat that massive debt has on the world's economic system...coming at the same time...as a technology that will not just knock out the "horse n buggy" guys but pervasively replace humans in the workforce across all occupational categories. POSSIBLY. leading to much societal instability.

There is already a massive pendulum swing occurring in the world, creating instability and seeming "pop-up" wars.

Unfortunately, that is not paranoid fantasy. The pieces have been put in place for that to occur. Question is...will the pieces fall or not? And to what extent?

Well if we're ever gonna have a hit... make it soon.


I'm just trying to understand the mindset of some person who never played .music before, or wrote a song before , using ai to create a song

Where is the satisfaction in that. And do you think it makes you a songwriter?
,

Consider various political issues going on now...and how completely different, but adamantly views of them are held.
Human beings have a profound capacity for self-delusion. Delusion as an alternate reality (narrative) is the currency that politics trades and thrives on.

So yes, there are many people out there who will recite..."I miss my tuxedo cat" into an AI and then send a link out to the song that they "wrote."
And they will believe it, because in a sense it will be true.

Guaranteed.

But there's also a premium put on real works if art. I would think most people, musical or not, who live in this world will still appreciate somebody who actually did the work.

Like anybody in the know today, is not going to say omg, you are so talented. Cause they know better, they may enjoy the song anyway.

And if everybody is writing songs this way, my hope is that real artists are able to differentiate themselves.

So far, great artists have been able to overcome tech.

You are invested in this from the creator (human songwriter) side of it. You view through that "lens."

A typical "tik-tok" addict doesnt care about anything other than liking something or not. If they like it, the behind the scenes creation is not going to be a factor of consideration for them.
And that tik-tok-er is a big piece of the pop music market, if not the biggest piece.

Yes that part I get, my point was, if somebody in school created a song with ai, kids might say hey thats pretty cool.

But then say I can do the same damn thing, and the creator will be marginalized.
Nobody will consider them an artist

Put that same kid in front of a piano, and some will say damn I can't do that, but want to learn how.

Perhaps live music needs to come back

Live music, buttz in the seats at very high prices and merchandising appear (to this outsider) to be the music industry's firewall.

Fortunately to date I haven't heard any ai that was too good to top. And far from it.

And nothing I would embrace and want to listen to.

Even songs made to mimic famous artists. Yeah the sound and style are there but the song isnt

I agree humankind's ability to be self-deluded seems infinite, but it doesn't bother me too much outside of the realm of politics, where self-deluded people are given a platform and a megaphone.

But if I think about it, you make a strong point how "tuxedo cat" is symptomatic of a nascent gullibility, though I think in-and-of-itself, is practically harmless, as a practice. I can love a Rothko, but you might think it's just a blob of paint on a canvas and not worth millions.

For decades, teen girls wrote (and continue to write) variations of the same poem after a boyfriend gilts them. They all think it's brilliant. It's not. It's common. As common as the kind of songs kids will delude themselves over when they use, say, song creation AI. They can't separate its personal value from its true value. My point is, I don't think this "tuxedo cat" phenomenon is anything new, brought on by new forms of media. The innate need for grandiosity points to basic psychological problems most of us deal with, such as "the denial of death" in all its forms.

The value we attach to art objects, from Warhol's to Tik-Tok's, is an elusive thing where self-deception on a massive scale seems an integral part of the equation.
Maybe if we look at art objects like paper money, we can understand that, like paper money, there's no true value in the object itself. Just what a group of people decide.

So perhaps, our capacity for self-delusion (as to art we make ourselves) is mirrored by our capacity to buy into art's innate illusory value to begin with?!?

With streaming media such as Tik-Tok and youtube, though, we unknowingly ascribe value to the object based on the number of times it's streamed and perhaps "liked." This too can't be the true metric of an art object's true value? But what else do we have? Your opinion? My opinion? Should the few decide its value, or the many?

The true value of an art object seems to always be a subjective thing, throwing it back to the metric of its popularity or lack thereof, as in, the cumulative total of subjective opinions. What other metric do we have? "The cumulative total of subjective opinions" at least feels like a democratic metric.

I know I skirt around your issue. But hopefully you find it thoughtful skirting.

I personally scale back all this kind of thinking, most of the time, and just want to enjoy some of these new tools, because they can be fun to use.

But I DO APPRECIATE conversation that at least attempt to make sense out of where we are and how we got here, though being smack-dab-in-the-middle of all of it, it's hard to get an objective view...

Not bad. This song doesn’t take off so to speak with me. Might could get some lyric ideas from Udio, maybe musical ideas. The site has slowed way down according to the banner notice. Must be popular with a lot of non musicians. Where do you see going with this Michael? I didn’t hear the tropical part.

Hi Craig,

I think the fallacy in thinking mostly non-musicians will use this site is that a musician will not find value in any form of sample creation. Yet sample creation is integral to modern music. One need not try to create a complete song, but maybe the need is just for a beautiful solo violin part in a certain key and BPM.

I think the idea of this being popular among non-musicians is where the divisiveness happens. Some think that's bad, others not. Why not let non-musicians have some fun? If they make something, accidentally, actually pretty good? They may have to learn a few new skill sets such as marketing, promotion, performing, and a few therapy sessions to get over the fact that their song got very few streams. Maybe they will see that they chose the same "common" theme as thousands of others.

It's amazing to me how very critical folks are, here, about these initial songs generated by Udio AI. Take a step back and think about how all this was a pipe dream even a decade ago? And how this AI will only improve, and very quickly over time?

Where do I see this going? I see this and it's video counterparts going to a place that revolutionizes content creation, for sure. It will be a Darwinian survival-of-the-fittest where common themes create the kind of gluts Marty refers to. But in every glut there will be content that stands out. Same as it ever was. Good stuff will rise to the top.

Good to hear from you Craig! I'm all name-that-tuned out, and so I just wanted to share this AI site's url with everyone cuz there will be some here who find value in it. That's all...

Be well...

Mike

Funny that you should mention Rothko.
He gets my personal vote for possibly the greatest and most expensive hoax ever perpetuated by the "art community."
Somebody is crazy. It must be me.

Marty

Value of 87 million per google for the linked original
Orange somesh*t


https://www.wikiart.org/en/mark-rothko/orange-and-yellow

Yeah, us musicians are just pissed that we had to work a lifetime at our craft - ha, ha. I remember my younger years practicing piano 4 hours a day and studying the music of all the Greats. I also remember when the first synthesizers came out. The snobbish musicians back then said that wasn't a real instrument. I think there was the same mindset when the first electric guitar came out. Oh well, the monster's out of the cage. There's no stopping it now.

John