JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Ruben or Clay? or don't care?

What's your vote?
I think they are both terrific singers.
I think Clay has a little more showmanship
but Ruben has a little more versatility in
his vocals.

David
http://www.daviddouglaswright.com

I personally haven't watched a single moment, but from a unobjective look from the local news (Ruben has some family near where I live I guess... that's what the news says anyway), I think Ruben seems more genuine, and Clay seems fabricated. I'm just not sure which one the music world needs right now...
There was an interesting piece on my local news last night (St. Paul/Minneapolis), and Jimmy Jam gave his 2 cents. He likes them both, wants to work with both (go figure), but likes Ruben over Clay because he thinks he has more talent. It was cool getting someone that is "in the know" to give their two cents.
Like I said, I could care less, and I'd like to take ALL reality tv and give it the BIG flush...

David
www.davidallen.tv

Clay, for I think he is the male Celine, or "could be" anyway. He seems to have that "sparkle" in his performance, and with time could reach Celine status. Remarkable voice and power. Potential is more with him, in my opinion.

I like Ruben too. He'll be great for the cool R&B songs about love. Clay will be able to do very uptempo as well as knock em dead with power ballads though. His high notes, (when done in regular voice), is something to hear! I thought he should have not used falseto in "Here, There, and Everywhere". he should have found out the highest note he could hit fully and have that dictate the song's key. But he blew me away with "Bridge over troubled waters", and I heard Garfunkle do it at a rehearsal as I was 15 feet from him at the piano.

Should be very close. They both are derserving.

John Daubert

[This message has been edited by dhsongs (edited 05-21-2003).]

David, John,

Ruben it is!
As far as reality TV shows I think American
Idol has some class..

Overall pretty darn good entertainment.
Clay will definitely get signed anyway.
Both Clay and Ruben were singing some of the songs better than the originals themselves.

David

By definition, I believe an American Idol is the whole package, image as well as talent. Clay was the one who had both. However.....both Ruben and Clay had the talent.

At the beginning of the evening, Clive Davis announced that both had contracts and would be releasing albums.....and I knew that was going to happen.

Also in the beginning of the show, Ryan announced that out of 24 Million votes, they were only 13,000 votes apart. However, when it was time to announce the winner, he said he had made a mistake...added a zero....and they were only 1,300 votes apart. Such a minute margin would require a recount in any political contest. I say it's a tie....and they are both winners.

Congratulations to both Ruben and Clay for following their dreams!

well... they did say Ruben won Florida.. perhaps that explains it.. hahaha

Brian

Well, Ruben might be the American Idol but Simon Cowell was the winner in my book. Much as I despised his dismissiveness and arrogance at first I came to find a grudging respect for the guy which eventually developed into sheer gratitude that he was there at all. He was the only thing that prevented the show from descending into a sickly, saccharine molasses of inanity. I didn't always agree with him but at least he had the courage of his convictions and the ability to hold a cohesive sentence together! I mean, "What's up, Dawg? Yer really doin' yer thang up there" is somewhat less eloquent than "Woof woof". And as for Paula... well, she's a sweetheart.. but so what? As a judge it's not her role to be liked.

As for Ruben and Clay. It was always going to be close but I found it ironic that a weedy white guy and an overweight black teddy beer would be the finalists in a show such as this. Neither of them had what many in the industry would define as "image". As my 13 year old daughter said after the results, "It goes to show you - Americans aren't so shallow after all". Talent both won and as good as won. Ain't that just such a good thang, dawg

Yeah, Simon was nearly always dead on correct. He oddly had one major blind spot when it came to that Corey guy they kicked off... he was by far the worst performer of either season.. in some cases he was worse than the people they made fun of as being the worst singers.. yet Simon kept nudging him forward with praise until the week before they kicked him off when he finally said he watched the tapes afterwards and Corey was terrible. It was so absurd that it seemed like a set up to keep the guy in the contest.. But besides that one huge lapse in judgement.. he was pretty honest throughout. The other two are just friendly cartoon characters, as Paula herself acknowledged.

It's a fun show and, aside from the "right after this message" lame gimmick.. done very well for what is obviously a giant cash cow for Fox and the owners of the show.

Brian

Jeeez....
Who cares.....
Both were OK...sang reasonably in tune, most of the time.....
Sorry folks....

Bowling alley karaoke winners at best...

White middle class falls in love with Ruben 'cos he's a big black guy who's not scary..not pumping hip-hop ar grabbing his crotch...so what if he's not a great singer...he's got such a nice smile..and gee....everybody knows fat guys are jolly and gentle.....OH Brother......

Then there's that white kid sounding like a black kid trying to sound like a white kid imitating a black kid...whew..I'm getting dizzy just thinking about it....my butcher gives me slices of whitefish that are warmer and more soulful than that bozo...even with the occasional expression that looked like he was trying to pop a ping-pong ball out of his butt...he just couldn't quite hit all those notes !

Live for the hype kids......it's what we do now......

Bob

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 05-22-2003).]

I'm with you Bob, who cares? I haven't watched a second and don't care to. Although it does offer a good opportunity to guage what the moguls are lookin for, I prefer "Ted Mack's Original Amateur Hour" or the "Gong Show". Now that's entertainment

t

I'm really glad too that America went against image and with vocal chops. Although I've had enough of melisma (great NY Times article about the unstoppable use of over-singing each note), I liked the warm quality of Ruben, and although his pitch wasn't always 100%, he conveyed emotion and showed some range.

Now Clay was damn near pitch-perfect but left me cold. He overpronounces his words, and only has one dynamic speed. I don't recall ever hearing emotion or singing outside of a belt.

The one I was rooting more for: Trenyce



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Marian Mastrorilli
mastrose@aol.com
http://www.projectmercury.net

This is one of the many reasons why I don't even own a TV. People spend way too much time watching it.

Jody

"Melisma"! Now there's a word I heard used a long time ago and have never been able to remember when I needed to since. Thanks. Maybe I'll actually remember it this time.

Wow Bob!

Must be that Florida comment by Brian got you razzed?
Hey that ping pong ball might be worth something on Ebay!!!

David

Bob,

Lighten up my friend. As far as I am aware, anyone between a certain age range on the planet were welcome to try out for this show. Many did. Many did not. Of those that did.. they had to survive a pretty grueling elimination process for 6 months. Is it really so bad to give credit where it is due? Are you suggesting that either of those 2 guys didn't work their way through the process fair and square? If the system was honest, then, like them or not, I think they deserve praise for outlasting all others in their age groups. I've seen better and worse. But, talent alone has NEVER guarenteed career success and it never will.
Talent is something you are born with. Hard work... survival.. persistance (all the things you have to get off your ass to do).. that makes the difference. Both of these kids have well above average talent. And they pursued success it AND found it AND earned it fair and square. Why have sour grapes about it?

Have you seen better? I bet you have. I know I have. But I have also seen worse among the superstars of music. I've seen Sheryl Crowe tank badly in concert. I've seen Eric Clapton totally suck at a show one night. I saw Aerosmith embarrass themselves off a stage but then saw them come back and give probably the best rock concert performance I have ever seen anyone give. These kids had ups and down. I think it is great that with their strengths and weaknesses, they found a way to claw themselves towards their dreams because they BOTHERED to try and did their best to succeed. Why not give them their due?

Everyone who performs has strengths and weaknesses.. good days and bad days. That's a valuable lesson for all of us to learn. We can survive and get past our flaws and still work hard to find various types of success. If these kids can do it.. so can we. "What one man can do.. any man can do" is one of my favorite quotes. This is a great example of pretty inexperienced kids being thrust into the stratosphere of pressure and limelight, and doing their best to prevail... Sure, the pressure got to them at various times. They're human.. and I am glad we all got to see that humanity during this process.. that is far too often lost in the glossy prefab pop music scene where everything is airbrushed and tweaked to sound perfect. It's sort of the phenom of Models.. no women, including the supermodels themselves, actually look like they do in their pictures. Few artists sound like their CD's.. and almost none ALWAYS sound that good.

Every musician/performer who has risen to success has done so IN SPITE of their weaknesses.. not because they don't have any. We saw it happen right before our eyes on this silly little TV show that, in my opinion, had a valuable lesson tucked inside it.

So why not enjoy the fact that some totally unknown Just Plain Folks type kids worked their ass off and reached their dream? It's clearly not like these were 2 rich boys who's parents bought their success right? Why, as a society, have we lost the ability to enjoy something positive without searching for the negative so we can feel somehow superior by slamming someone for whatever weakness we can find, who has just achieved an enormous success in front of our eyes.. fair and square? There is NOTHING in life that can't be criticized. Why is it ALWAYS necessary to do so? ALWAYS.

Kelly Clarkson has proven to be the REAL deal. She's as talented and deserving as any female singer in the pop world right now. The show gave her a chance to come out of total obscurity to a well deserved success.

So really.. lighten up. It's so easy in life to sit on the sidelines and take pot shots at other peoples efforts and work without having to do the same thing yourself. I get that myself. People complain about how I do what I do.. but oddly, I haven't seen any of them do it better.. or even try to do it all for that matter. I started this group in large part because I thought others WEREN'T creating the type of community I thought could exist. Instead of sitting and complaining about THEIR work.. I just did it myself. I wish everyone took that same approach.. don't complain about.. do it better and prove, through action, it can be better.

Brian

Ricky Nelson's "Garden Party" comes to mind.

We could name every performer and composer to have lived, including Mozart, Schubert, Joplin, Sinatra, Elvis, Beatles, Streisand, Warren, Chapin, Garth, Elton, Bee Gees, etc., and there will some people for each one that thinks they suck. Same for food, art, movies, clothes, cars, anything!
It is the one consant in this world.

I personally think the final three, (at least, were outstanding, especially for being previous non pros. Clay has that something that a lot of singers just can't present, a professional apperance that contains confidence and a honest knowledge of his abilities. Ruben has it too, just in a different style than Clay's. They LOVE to sing and it shows. They learned how to sing and it shows, and they "showed up" ready to give their best, week after week, with work ethics a lot of us would get tired just doing half. We all fall short of our potential best here and there. I think they hit a best for pro considerations for most of the time.

But some will not see it that way. I accept that now more than ever. 50 has a way of showing you things in a clearer light, I guess.

To each their own,

John Daubert

Sorry Brian.....

Your whole "lighten up" is stuff and nonsense.

What's wrong with this whole deal is that we're settling for mediocrity !
"Gee...he (or she) is just a hard working kid and so adorable...Hooray for them !"
Bull---t !!!

If they're gonna get on my stage they better be as good or better than me !
Period !
I don't care if it's a five year old child or a nun that has a saucer and dog act.


Everything I said was true..the fact is I have worked with 30 or 40 different singers working with my band over the years, and those two kids (wonderful as you may think they were) were not good enough to carry their music !

The thread asked our opinion...
I gave it..

I stand by it....

Is that still allowed here Brian.....?

How about if You lighten up my friend ?!

Bob

PS I've reread my original post several times and yes, it is critical...
But NOWHERE do I see myself complaining
NOWHERE !!!

Just playing with words a bit while stating my opinion.

You said "Why have sour grapes about it"
I resent the inferrence that you dismiss my opinion as sour grapes...that's foolish and wrong on your part.

"why not give them their due ?"
I did precisely that !

Kelly Clarkson is the real deal !

You gotta get out more often !

I've seen the "real deal" and it sure didn't look or sound like Kelly Clarkson !

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 05-23-2003).]

Bob,

Let's try something different. How about some positive interaction okay?

So, give us the names of those 30-40 singers you've worked with which are better singers than Kelly Clarkson. I want to get their music. Seriously. I think you must have a goldmine corral of vocal talent which has gone undiscovered far too long. So lets bring some positive attention to them and their music. Anyone better than Kelly Clarkson is someone I want to hear and want to promote to the industry.

Also, I'd like to see a list from you of 30-40 active singers out there anywhere in the industry who are better right now? I am sure I could come up with a dozen or so.. but since you've made it clear you are a better judge than the millions of people who are fans of these AI kids, I'd rather see your list. I am always up for some musical education. So, now that it's clear what you don't like.. let's turn it around to the positive and hear what you DO like. What singers are actually worthy of Bob Young's stamp of approval?

Brian

Brian..

Apparently you , like many others believe that the only talented singers in this world are the ones that have recordings.
I must tell you that in general..working singers..those that do cabaret or theatre work or, as in my experience. live band work from weddings to corporate are , in my opinion, infinitely more talented than the Brittneys and Madonnas of the world.

I could put up a list of people you'd never heard of, who are wonderful singers...what's the point ?

You have them in Indianapolis too..they're everywhere !
It's been part of my job over the last twenty years(since I've been doing jobbing and corporate work) to supply singers and groups of singers for various gigs.
I've seen myriads of young kids who could sing circles around lots of "stars"
Dozens and dozens of "mature" singers who never got to be stars for one reason or another...so don't bore me with giving credit where credit is due.

As to my personal favorites...that's a list with names you probably wouldn't recognize either.

Bob

You know, Brian....

You'd understand me better if you'd take into consideration the fact tha I take as my heroes, entertainers of another generation.
My heroes are the champions of vaudeville and theatre.
Jack Benny, Fred Allen, Fannie Brice..
People who were multi talented. they could sing and dance and tell jokes and would fill in for other performers...they realized the show was the thing, and whatever it took was what they would do.
Todays performers are one-dimensional at best...those that do more than one thing are mediocre at everything..Madonna is my prime example..fair singer..fairly attractive..typical New York dancer..fair songwriter..Great self-promoter !

Those kids on American Idol may have been the best of the bunch.
I dunno....
But do they show me anything that would make me "idolize" anything about them....

No...certainly not....

Bob

And Brian...
That last paragraph is snide and insulting !
Read it please !
Your insinuations are mean spirited and un-called for !
My opinions are based on my life experiences..I am not and will not ever be ashamed of that.People can agree with me or not..but to question, my voracity is just wrong.
If you can't tell the difference between an honest and informed negative opinion,albeit one that is applied creatively ( I am trying to be a writer you know) and "sour grapes" or whatever....Then you'll probably never understand any of what I say or why I say it.

Bob

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 05-23-2003).]

Singing, like any other creative endeavor, is a very subjective thing. What I like, someone else may think is trash....and that is fine. As most of us here say....JMO!

However, I still stand by.....

Congratulations Ruben and Clay for following your dreams!

That's something more of us should do.



[This message has been edited by Sunny (edited 05-23-2003).]

I tend to think some of us harbor a bit of discontent with those talent shows because we rarely see any of them playing an instrument or doing their own songs...hence a lack of originality. This is not to be negative, just a simple observation.
With that said, however, it's impossible to deny the fabulous singing abilities some of the contestants have. Their stage presence can be very good, and watching them makes me think of a lot of artists I personally know who could use that "umph" in their performances. Some of them really move me while watching.
So..there is something to be observed and appreciated, most definitely. I can only dream of singing as good as half these people, let alone rip it out on national television!
I do tend to wonder how the recording contracts will go with the winners, how their CDs will turn out, and who will buy them. When I look at my CD collection, I only have Cds of a few artists who have made it via using other people's material... Eva Cassidy, Toni Price, and some James Taylor, etc. Naturally, a lot of groups/artists do a cover song now and then, but the popularity and acceptance of said covers is a function of the artistic styling the artists bring to it.
I wish them all the best of luck and hope they find their dreams.

-Gary

Hi, Gary!

Would like to respond to the idea of vocalist not doing their own original material. I think it's time for that idea to come back.

A lot of really good songwriters are unable to perform their own creations well. The current reliance of the industry on performer songwriters is IMO part of the reason for the degradation of quality material. Sure a group or singer can have a great sound but it doesn't mean that they write great songs.

I am not sure when the trend of only promoting performing songwriters started , probably in the middle 60's.

Prior to those times, far fewer vocalists and bands wrote their own material. In my opinion, the quality of popular music (in both lyrics and composition) from the 40s through the very early 60's is far better than what we have today.

Rock music is a little bit different, but again, I feel the quality is really degrading in a lot of cases. There are still some really good ones, but not like there used to be.


Just my opinion.


JeanB

Posting my post Again, as I hope things have calmed down enough for other posts to be considered, and I'm not in the middle of a back and forth struggle, which maybe should be reserved for personal emailing. ????:

Ricky Nelson's "Garden Party" comes to mind.
We could name every performer and composer to have lived, including Mozart, Schubert, Joplin, Sinatra, Elvis, Beatles, Streisand, Warren, Chapin, Garth, Elton, Bee Gees, etc., and there will some people for each one that thinks they suck. Same for food, art, movies, clothes, cars, anything!
It is the one consant in this world.

I personally think the final three, (at least, were outstanding, especially for being previous non pros. Clay has that something that a lot of singers just can't present, a professional apperance that contains confidence and a honest knowledge of his abilities. Ruben has it too, just in a different style than Clay's. They LOVE to sing and it shows. They learned how to sing and it shows, and they "showed up" ready to give their best, week after week, with work ethics a lot of us would get tired just doing half. We all fall short of our potential best here and there. I think they hit a best for pro considerations for most of the time.

But some will not see it that way. I accept that now more than ever. 50 has a way of showing you things in a clearer light, I guess.

To each their own,

John Daubert

Now, any thoughts on that?




[This message has been edited by dhsongs (edited 05-23-2003).]

Brian..

I think you're a great guy...

You're not reading what I'm saying..

Your responses are based on an interpretation of my words.. not my words as they are..

read what I've said..with no bias..and I think you will agree..

Your challenge is silly...I do not have to justify my opinions ! You're asking me to "prove" what I said.
Do you see that as insulting ?
I do ! I will not imply that your opinion is less valid than mine by providing a list !
I believe you are sincere in what you say..
I happen to not agree.
I will not be called out in some silly pissing contest !
I'm sorry you're taking this in this direction.

You are talking a child..continoually trying to put words in my mouth

STOP IT ! again Brian look at your last post...

"are you suggesting everyone stop making music etc" WHAT ! I never said or intimated anything like that !

What I said was that many great singers don't record !

Are ya' gettin' that..it's pretty simple !

"I hate everyone and no one can measure up"
Who the hell are you reading..certainly not me..I sure never said that !

"if they're nopt recording artists I can't compare them to anything"
But, Brian...I have ears...remember those Brian..the funny little curvy things on the side of my head !

You appear to really enjoy Kelly Clarkson...
I forgive you for that.....

She is a nice little singer like so many others..
I hear No originality in her voice at all..nothing to distinguish her from dozens of other faceless, nice voices on the radio.
Can she sing ?..yes she can...
So does the little girl at my church who doesn't have a recording contract...so I guess she's no good either..right Brian...

Jeeeez !

Bob

Bob, I am serious.. name some artists out there on the radio who you think are better? If there aren't any, then you're acknowledging they're the best out there. It's not difficult. Are you suggesting that everyone stop making music because this isn't the good old days and those artists from that era are either dead or not making music anymore?

So you think everyone making music today is weak and no one can measure up to the past. Is that your point?

If all these amazing artists out there don't record anything.. then guess what? They AREN'T recording artists! So you can't compare them to people on the radio today. It's like saying someone is the best the author ever, but they've never written anything down.

So, again, I will sincerely ask you.. who exists that we can listen to that is far superior to Kelly Clarkson... you seem to think the majority of people you know are.. how about a few that have recorded something in their lives?

I am also curious how you measure what is great and what isn't. Sales is one way, but can be manipulated. Concert ticket sales in my opinion is a very legitimate measurement because payola can't get people to buy tickets and go to the show. Fan base size has to have at least some credibility. After all.. if millions of people like something, can you really say it has no merit or quality? If it isn't airplay.. sales... awards... fan base.. ticket sales... or recordings... how else do you gauge it? Opinion is fine.. but opinion isn't a fair or unbiased measurement. Perhaps you believe there is no measurement of what is good and bad beyond opinion.. but even in that case, it seems to be the opinion of millions and millions of people who cast 250 million votes over 12 weeks that those performers were pretty well liked.

Brian

Bob..

Where did I ask you to prove it? I asked you to give examples to illustrate your point that there are many many many artists better than Kelly Clarkson. Listing their names wouldn't prove it.. it would only give examples by which to understand what point you are making. You said 30-40 of your band singers are better than her. (I think you made a derogatory comment like "they couldn't hold their music" or something.. (but gee.. I am the one who is degrading the conversation right?)

If you post on a message board.. that means some exchange... you've made very broad claims that, if true, should be very easy to illustrate. From my viewpoint, I am not understanding where you are coming from. I have ears too. I listened to music from over 10K artists last year. I've seen over 8000 artists perform live in the last 4 years. I think I have a valid point of view on this subject. I haven't seen myriads of better singers than Kelly Clarkson. I've seen perhaps a dozen singers in her league.. and probably 2-3 that I'd consider better. And this is across over 40 genres of music.

I never understand why people are willing to state a negative, but are totally flustered when asked to give examples of what they are comparing someone to.

I am truly puzzled as to why you don't want to tell us which vocalists you use as your own measuring stick? We talk about favorites on these message boards all the time.. why is this so horrible for you to contemplate?

Brian

Who is better than Kelly? The lead singer of the Gore Gore Girls for one. Sozzie Tyrell for another. I saw better singers on Star Search a month ago maybe longer. A teenage girl singing Dancing In The Street sounded better than Kelly also.

What I dislike about the shows is there's no rock music but the type I do not listen to as much. I would love a show along the lines of what Buddy won for rock music. I can honestly say that nothing on American Idol impressed me as much as the final 3 contestants for the country one.

Also there was bad songs before the singer songwriters came along. I find that most of my favorite singers write their own songs. Kelly's album with songs wrote by some of the top names in songwriting like Diane Warren's flat out suck. However there are songs she has wrote that I like. Some Hearts that is on one of Marshall Crenshaw's releases is one. So I could be biased in that I like rock music the best and her other stuff just does not work for me.

But anyhow these two guys went out and were the last two left and they chased their dream just as Kelly did. I think they deserve credit for that.

Brian..I'm not totally flustered..
Frankly..you do not have the ability to "fluster" me !
I will say this next thing very clearly so that you will understand it.

This is a subjective matter !

That means it cannot be proved or disproved !
Examples of my opinion will not change the subjective nature.

I do not feel the need to qualify my opinion !

I'm gonna say this again,,,One More time !..hoping you get it !!

The people you mention..Kelly Clarkson, and the two guys that were the finalists are, in my opinion..(did you get that ?MY OPINION )
Are competent singers.
I see no elements of greatness in any of them.
I have and do work with singers who are ,again, IN MY OPINION better than those three you mentioned.
It's beginning to appear that disagreeing with you brings along the burden of justification.
I'm sorry Brian but that is the way it seems to me !

If you need to believe that not responding to your silly list demand is for any other reason than feeling it is beneath me..then it seems apparent we have a wide gap in levels of perception (indeed, thought )
If you need to take that as a victory...fine...the flag is yours....

Please Brian...enough..

Bob

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 05-23-2003).]

Ah.. responding to a question is "beneath" you now.. that sort of goes along with the rest of you snobbish position. Everyone you work with is far better than the artists that many here (and all over the world) seem to like. But don't dare ask who some of those artists are... or heaven forbid if someone is curious as to what singers you actually think are worthy which someone may once have heard of so we can check them out ourselves.

If you feel that responding to a legitimate and reasonable question, one that could be asked in a similar way on nearly ANY topic ever posted on this message board is beneath you.. why do you post at all? Sorry to have you slumming with the likes of someone who would dare ask you for an example of what you are stating. Perhaps one day us mortals out here with such poor taste in music can rise to your lofty heights so we're no longer beneath you.

Brian

Yes Brian...

I hope someday you can...

It's lonely at the top !

Why do I post at all ?

I post because MOST of the people here recognize the difference between disagreement and challenge !

Bob

Are you inviting me not to post ?

Oh, for crying out loud!!! Why do you have to make it a personal thing?!? This started out as a fun and interesting topic, and you, Bob, have turned it into nothing more than the "pissing contest" you so claim to abhor! Get over yourself!!!!

Jaden

------------------
http://www.geocities.com/kitty_caliente :PLEASE VISIT MY WEBPAGE!

ATTENTION TO THOSE IN THE GREATER KANSAS CITY AREA: Please contact me if you are interested in a local chapter. Thanks!!

Oh for crying out loud the show is close to a scam in some ways. Anyone doubting can read the story in Newsweek.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/914098.asp?cp1=1

Interesting thread. It's amazing how people can get so worked up. I re-read Bob's post and I gotta say that I agree with all of it except the bowling alley karaoke thing. But, I think ol' Bob was just employing a little hyperbole to get his point across and to see if he could roil the pot a bit. I must say I'm a bit surprised that people took the bait so easily.

The point Bob made that I agree with is that all three finalists are fine, competent singers. I enjoyed listening to each. However, I did not see any indication of "greatness" in any of them. That is not negativity, or bitterness, or crankiness. It is just the way I see it. The big guy is a nice, soulful singer who can certainly make hit records. He reminds me of Teddy Pendergrass, or Luther Vandross. That's the problem, he reminds me of somebody else.

Clay has a really fine instrument but I think he needs to learn how to use it better. I would like to hear him in ten years. I'll bet he will be great then, because the potential is there.

My favorite of the three was the woman who finished third. I certainly don't think she is in league with Gladys Knight or Anita Baker, but she sure might be in a few years. I enjoyed her singing a lot.

Don't forget, this is all about selling records. Great singing talent has never been a key consideration. The only talent that matters is a talent for selling records. Can anyone say David Cassidy?

I think Brian's apparent theory that all "great" singers have recording contracts is illogical. The three we are talking about would not have contracts except that they won a talent contest. There are thousands of great talents out there that get overlooked by the recording industry for one reason or another. I agree with Bob--I've heard many unsigned singers who can sing rings around Ruben, and Brittany, and Madonna, and Toby Keith. That doesn't disparage those folks in any way, it just points out that talent can pop up anywhere.

At any rate, I hate to see this stuff get so personal. Take a deep breath.

Maybe Ruben and Clay are not the best out there but both are good and damn good IMO.

The great thing about the competition is that “talent” won out over image. Not many
venues where that can happen now day’s.

Most new stars are found and molded to fit an image the label wants to project. and image takes priority over singing ability.

At least these kids had a venue for the public to listen to their singing talent and vote for the ones to advance to the next level.

A better way to find the stars of tomorrow IMO.

Wish they had a show like this for the writer/performers to do his/her own material. Some damn good talent would have a chance to be seen. Any venue where someone has a chance to compete and be seen by that kind of audience is a good thing.

lost someone was molded. If this person had not molded doubt they would have made it to the finals. Hope you read the Newsweek article.

Just a bit of statistical trivia: 1,300 people out of 24 million voters preferred Ruben over Clay. That represents just 0.000025% of the total vote. WHat's the margin of error in something like this? I reckon, for all intents and purposes, they shoulda called it a draw.

Not 24 million voters, but votes. Many people probably voted more than once, so the number of people is not known, only the numbers of getting through to an open line. One person told me they got through 16 times, while others said 2 or 3. I imagine that happened across the country.

A LOT less people were voters than we think. And maybe there were more people voting for the losers some of the weeks, but they didn't vote more than once or twice. ??????

The best three did get there though, so how did that happen, if voters can vote as many times as possible, and some just vote once?

Guess for other times, they should do it how political votes are done. That seemed to go smoothly before!

John Daubert

[This message has been edited by dhsongs (edited 05-23-2003).]

Actually Brian and I just do that once in a while to suck you kids in..

Then we get together over a couple of cold ones at a little place in Anderson Indiana, where we chortle and say "Boy, we sure sucked 'em in that time !"

Gotta keep things goin !

Bob

Thats no lie!
Bob sucked me into a political vacuum once!
I almost could not get out of it.
Bob has a knack for really gettng under your skin. Bob is blessed with this wonderfull gift. It would be such a waste if he didn't
use it.
I've learned not to debate him.
I'ts just best... I don't enjoy bleeding ulcers....
Looks like Brian was sucked in like a
Tornado...
I do admit to enjoying watching others debate
him now..

Bob! I think you should have your own talk show! You could be the lefts answer to
Michael Savage....

David

Bob is actually right... I just got a couple of steaks for the cookout tommorow here at the JPF compound. We're already plotting the next brou ha ha.

In all seriousness, Bob and I actually can argue vehemently without becoming too personally invested in it. Ever watch "Cross-Fire" on TV? The only difference between the arguing that takes place on that show and me and Bob is that in our case, I am always right.

; )

Brian

John is absolutely correct on the number of people voting. From what I have heard and using a little common sense on the numbers, the average voted is calling at least 5-10 times. Some in the hundreds.. some only 1 time.

Kelly Clarkson had about 13 million votes in the final last year and she's sold 1.3 million albums. I think it is likely that the two guys who finished this year 1 and 2 will water down each others sales. Hearing the single from Clay's album, it's VERY weak and they can only get away with him singing cover songs for so long. Ruben has a more built in audience in the R&B fan niche, but it will all come down to how strong the second and third single is to see if he'll have any legs. Last year Kelly sang the cheesy "winners" singles and had success, but once that BS was over, the actually let her shift away from the sugar sweet schlock and put out an enjoyable single and album. In her niche, I still believe she's as good as any of her competition. If you don't like that style of music, then it's no surpise you wouldn't think that much of her.

What I liked about Kelly is that she could have sang many genres that get played on radio today. She can do R&B, Country, Pop, Rock, Jazz (though I'd agree she isn't as stylized as many Jazz performers, she certainly has the range and ability to do that and if there were any money in all perhaps we'd see her try since it's clear they are going for record sales and airplay only with all the AI kids.)

Even though Bob won't list any artists (I wonder sometimes if he actually listens to much music, as most active live performers don't really have time to do that.. not a slam.. just a reality), I think where Kelly MIGHT (not putting words in his mouth, just making a reasonable guess here) fall short for him is that she's not singing with a unique or stylized technique. She's singing pretty straight ahead pop/rock in her big single. For a great female artist from the Indie (and JPF) community who has a truly original vocal niche, check out Kathy Fisher. You hear her all over the television (including the last several super bowls) singing commercial tracks. (Remember that Volkswagon commerical where they used the song LOVE in the background? i.e. L...is for the the way you... blah blah blah..) that was her.) Perhaps that type of vocalist would be more appealing to the Bob's of the world. But it doesn't take away ability. I bet Kelly could sing as good or better than any female artist in several genres on radio today.

As for the comment that I am all wrong that all great singers have record contracts, I never said that. I said if someone doesn't ever record anything they do, they aren't recording artists. You can't compare them fairly to those who are. I'd like saying someone is a great author but the never write anything down. It does seem odd that truly great singers in this day and age would never record anything. Recording is inexpensive and readily available. If no effort is ever made to record singers who really are superior to the talent of Kelly Clarkson, then it's a loss for everyone, and sort of mystifying. If all these artists came in a previous era, then they aren't contemporaries of Kelly Clarkson, so it's a bit like saying "Who's better.. Babe Ruth or Barry Bonds..."

Brian

PS: For those bothered by Bob and me going at it.. we're just having some fun.

Brian got that right....

I don't do much "casual" listening to music....
My listening time is precious to me..so I want to listen to the good stuff...
I think Ruben got alot of white votes...I don't think the RB community is gonna reach out to him...

Remember..they're all OK.....

go buy their records....

pump up the economy.....

But...try a little Susan Tedeschi once in a while.....

OOOOh...a name from Bobs "secret file"

Make that steak a rib-eye, Young man...I'll bring the beer AND the potato salad !

Bob

Well, now that it's all over bar the radioactive fallout I'm gonna leave it all behind and put on my favourite music for chilling out of all time - The Jacques Loussier Trio playing Bach's Goldberg Variations. The lyrics ain't all that great but, hey, words always were a limited-bandwidth form of communication.

Actually, that reminds me.. there was some vocal group back in the 60's or 70's that used to do a kinda a capella version of Bach's music but I forgot their name (in fact I had completely forgot all about them until this very moment LOL). I don't suppose anyone else can remind me?

Frank Zappa said it once. I've often quoted it. A friend and I once spent a beer-filled night writing a rather ironic song about it.. "Singing is a way of getting people to listen to music for longer than they ordinarily would". Uh huh!

One last thought on the "Idol" thing. Leaving aside any questions of talent and/or ability, one thing that really struck me that the last handful of contestants had in common was their complete lack of pretence as individuals. Their humility and ordinariness. When Clay told us that the person he most admired in the world was his mother we totally believed him. He came across as a genuine person.. as did Ruben, Kimberly and, yes, even that marine guy. In the midst of the hype, pressures and the b/s that is the entertaiment world these people somehow managed to maintain some gentle and genuine dignity. Music aside, these people - and particularly the two finalists - demonstrated a very positive side to American culture and of humanity in general. In that respect, if in no other, this show was worth following through to it's painfully drawn out conclusion.

Cheers

Simon

Simon..

That group was the "Swingle Singers "

Honest.....

Bob

Well, my wife and I caught AI about 3 weeks from the end...of season 1. We watched this season tho, from start to finish.

Regarding the outcome...well, they're both winners, in my book. Both had near flawless performances from the beginning. Clay, however, showed the most change, in looks anyway. While Reuben has a great voice, Clay has more stage presence, and should have won the competition.

It would be nice if they could somehow moniter the voting, and only accept one vote per phone number. We dont/didn't have the time, or energy to vote over 200 times like some mothers did.

The thing that bothered us in our home was Simon calling the Marine, Josh fat and that he needed to lose some weight but he thought Ruben was just fine. Then he called Clay ugly before he got the make over. Can you imagine what would have happened if Simon had called a "non-white" person ugly?

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Heroes are those who do what has to be done, when it needs to be done, regardless of the concequences. JB

OOOOOHHHHHHHH!! Y'all sucked me in good!! Gotta hand it to ya...and, yes, Bob, Susuan Tedeschi is AMAZING!!!!!!!

JB...I wondered the same thing that you touched on...I also noticed that Simon seemed to be much harsher on the appearances of the girls on the show as opposed to the boys...wonder why that was?


Jaden

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http://www.geocities.com/kitty_caliente :PLEASE VISIT MY WEBPAGE!

ATTENTION TO THOSE IN THE GREATER KANSAS CITY AREA: Please contact me if you are interested in a local chapter. Thanks!!

There are a lot of overweight African American R&B/Pop singers who have found success, male and female both. I am not sure that I can think of a single overweight male pop singer who has found similar success? Meatloaf maybe back in the 70's. Even though Luther lost weight, his career actually probably was past it's peak. Ruben seems to be a Luther wannabe. Are there any overweight male country singers that are just breaking in? Josh Gracin might be a fringe artist in country music, but losing and now missing the tour on top of it might be the end of his career ride on the AI bandwagon.

It's clear that Ruben wasn't going to lose enough weight to become thin... the others were in the ballpark so that they could be marketed in the traditional way. Ruben could ONLY be marketed at the big teddy bear.. so there's no point in fighting that reality. Kimberly Locke obviously lost a LOT of weight just during the show itself, and it did make her look more attractive than when she started... like it or not.. she looked better a little thiner and stylized than she did during auditions.. Clay, who's still Ed Grimley from Saturday Night live in disguise as a younger guy, played off his own untraditional looks as well.. they weren't going to make him a backstreet boy.. so they went with what they had... Josh and Kimberly and some of the others they nudged were nudged because they could be. It's not that difficult to see.

Brian

Hi all,
Here's my view on AI, for what it's worth...

I will not dispute that many of those that participated are talented kids. They are. Here's where I think Bob (if I can be so bold as to speak for you) and others like myself get a little edgy about...

1.) I don't exactly think it's putting in the hard work to buy a plane ticket and go to an audition armed with your talent.

2.) I'm curious to know how many of the AI contestants know what it's like to play in a smoky bar for 5 people who couldn't give a rat's ass that you're there and shout for Zeppelin or Skynyrd every 10 minutes or so.

3.) How many of them would still be involved in music if they had to do gigs as mentioned in point #2, travelling around in a van, building a following, sleeping on speaker cabinets, or maybe it's your turn to get the hotel room floor cause there isn't enough cash for the whole band to get hotel rooms, etc...

I'm not saying that cause I or anyone else that has done these things as a musician are any better, but these are things that teach you to appreciate what you have, to become a better performer, build character.

The contestants of AI, for the most part get to perform in front of a very large audience show after show, who will rain down accolades for even so-so performances. I kinda feel bad for them because they might have atough time coping when it's not spotlights and limos and interviews and autographs anymore.
Just some thoughts...I wish them all of the best,
Davey O.

I'm surprised by the development of this thread because when I read Bob Young's original post, I thought, "Exactly!" I didn't think that either Ruben or Clay were worthy of a title of "American Idol". I think they were the best of the bunch because there weren't any better competitors in the group. Working in a major music city, I've heard many studio singers who sound much more competent (although, I doubt that they entered the competition).

I'd agree that tastes are personal and that it's a valid opinion to believe that neither of the American Idol finalists are terrific all-around. I'm not interested in justifying my position or getting involved in conflict over it, but, I'd like to say that any opinion on the matter seems valid to me.



[This message has been edited by SongMaven (edited 05-27-2003).]