JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Re: Critques Phrases that bug.

Wierd topic title but don't know how else to phrase it. (Also I meant critique not critiques but I can't change it.)

Are there common phrases or statements that people often use in critques that bug you whether or not you are the person being critqued ? (No naming names please. I am looking for phrases not people )

I am just interested in seeing (1) if other people are bugged by the same things I am and (2) to check and see if there are some phrases I may want to eliminate from my critiques.


JeanB

Oh, I should probably start this off with an example. The following doesn't bug me at all but it REALLY bugs someone I know. (Probably doesnt' bug me because I use them all the time, LOL.)

The phrases are in the IMO, IMHO, JMHO family.




[This message has been edited by AKA JeanB (edited 07-30-2003).]

I hate the phrase. "It flows well" in a lyric critique. What the heck does that mean? I'd rather see specific info on meter, rhyme, etc than, "It flows well."

BB

Hi, BB. Thanks for responding.

I guess this means you would be more appreciative if I wouldn't call meter irregularities, bumpies, right?

JeanB

[This message has been edited by AKA JeanB (edited 07-30-2003).]

This usually applies to lyrics: "It doesn't say anything new", or "I've heard this story before" - I wouldn't mind this if it were true but people critiquing always say they are looking for a fresh concept, but then when you listen to the radio or buy a CD by a big artist - you hear the same old thing.
There will always be songs on CD's about cheating, break ups, etc., and yet some of the people who critique make it sound like no one wants to hear this stuff any more.
I hope this makes sense. Just my .02.

I think it makes sense. You could throw in the phrase "It's been done." as well.

There really isn't too much new to say when in it comes to writing about the human condition. Everything is just a variation of expression.

There really is "nothing new under the sun." (From the bard yes?")

PS:
Thanks for contributing, songwritr.



[This message has been edited by AKA JeanB (edited 07-31-2003).]

Just wanted to second that, "in my opinion" clunker; why would you post someone elses opinion? Dig it: We GET that it's your opinion...

And a third for the IMO fasmily.
Talk about stating the obvious.
Probably the biggest one after that, in a lyric critique is, "I'd have to hear it with music."
Why?
Because I post lyrics to see if what the lyric itself is about is coming out, and presume that is number one priority for any writer in the first draft stages.
I use, it flows well a lot. It is my way of saying, either it sang along pretty good to me, and/or, the bits all worked together story wise. Logic was easily understood sort of thing.
Which bit I am refering to, is usually made clear, by my comments toward either changing words to either alter the tune, or the story line, to bring it into line with how it feels for me.
if I say "Go sing" It means I can't see anything I would bother altering pre noise try one.
Rarely does any bundle of words sing exactly as first written come sing time.
Graham



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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

I must say that I am one of those guilty of using IMHO... because there are SOME new writers (and some "not so new) who continually forget that it's just MY opinion. It's not like I"m an expert and my word is gospel and I don't mean them to take it as such.


Sometimes if you DON'T say "In my opinion. etc... you come off as arrogant and obnoxious.. because it IS the printed word and people are easily offended and put their attitude onto your critique, so rather than having to repost the obvious.. "Dear John Songwriter, I wasjust giving you MY opinion.".. yes.. I use IMO.

As far as anyone else using phrases that bug me.. mmmm.. let's see.

I don't have any phrases that stand out but I will say I get a little irrated when critique after critique says "I totally got it, very original, I think you have a hit" and then they pick out one sentence or one word that bothers them.. ... LOL

I do appreciate all critiques though, and I understand the spirit in which they are given.. so I really don't have too many complaints.

Hi JeanB,

Actually I don't have any phrase that bugs me. I'm elated just to get a critique. Sometimes I feel bad riding the zero bench. I do make it a point, when I have the time, to troll the low response posts and give them a lift because I know how lonely it feels to be glossed over.

But what I don't like is people just receiving and not giving back.

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Having Fun!!!!
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/8/stanloh

Thanks, 9ne, Graham, and Kay-lynn.

Stan, you are an absolute dear. Thanks for contributing.

JeanB

none of these really bug me - they're a quick way of communicating a thought. The IMHO family softens what otherwise may be seen as harsh - I don't see any harm in that when dealing with other humans. Of course, if a person is known for NOT having humble opinions then IMHO might be a little weird or even sarcastic.

on a minor side note - "nothing new under the sun" predates the bard by a few years. Check Ecclesiastes - one of the strangest little (and most interesting) books to be included in the OT, and one which nearly missed the cut (really). Tho' the bard would no doubt agree with the sentiment.

Thanks, Guild!
Thanks for contributing and the heads up on the quote, I am going to have to look that up.

JeanB

The phrase that bugs me in a critique is the one the critic holds back.

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Mike Dunbar Music

LOL, Mike.

Like: Why isn't this already # 1 on the national charts?

JeanB

I agree with guildslinger. I think in a forum like this, just getting a critque is what matters; regardless of what lingo or jargon is used. The important thing is getting a critique. IMHO is a way some people feel comfortable so as to not sound condescending. I use it alot, and will continue to do so since that's what i'm comfortable with.

Hi, Blake!

Thanks for dropping by. No one is suggesting that any one has to change.
For myself, I may change a few things, if I find phrases which get in the way of what I am really trying to say.

I think it's interesting to see what kind of reactions words or phrases invite.
I would be happy to see your IMO on a post of mine, anytime.

JeanB

I'm fine with those "JMO" phrases, etc. I regard them as notices of humility, and I appreciate that the critic writing them doesn't pretend to speak for all listeners.

What I really appreciate knowing, however, is SPECIFIC information as to why a song or lyric is good, bad or lame (i.e., "I really like this line: ______" or "The quote being expressed by the main character is contrary to the picture you've previously painted of that person"....whatEVER!!)

Obviously, I'd like to hear, "That's a good song!" But I'd rather know "why" it's a good song...or why it falls short...THAT is helpful information...

JMHO...(lol)

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www.mp3.com/crisisrocks
www.dianatyler.com

Hi, Noel!

You are such a charmer.

There is nothing right or wrong about these phrases. What bugs one person may be pleasing to another.

The thing that is interesting is the variety of response the words trigger in the listeners.

JeanB

Exactly.



[This message has been edited by TrumanCoyote (edited 08-01-2003).]

I use the IMHO etc., for the same reasons as mentioned here. Sometimes I add the Dennis Miller twist to it, which unfortunately many people don't get because they don't follow Dennis Miller. He will go into these rants, which usually start with "I don't want to go into a rant here, but......." then he will rant an a subject for several minutes, his voice getting stronger. He finally gets soft and says : "but, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."

On well, guess you had to be there.

Mike

not always given in these words but:

"it flows well"

"that's a catchy chorus!" or its collary: "what this really needs is a catchy chorus"

"what wonderful imagery" (what the hell does this mean anyway?

"i think your audience might not get it"

there are many more.

Hi, Truman, Mike, and Kit!

Thanks for stopping by and replying.

Kit, I was wondering what alternatives you could suggest for the words that bug you. (Not that I am suggesting anyone should change)

Catchy means to me that something about the item catches and holds my attention and stays with me even after the song is over.


[This message has been edited by AKA JeanB (edited 08-02-2003).]

In response to people that use "just my opinion"; Fact: When people post, they ARE asking for YOUR opinion...If you feel so uncomfortable taking a stand, maybe you shouldn't critique.

[This message has been edited by 9ne (edited 08-02-2003).]

One of the ones that leaves me shaking my head is "this line is not conversational"

When I'm writing words to be sung the last thing I am concerned with is if they are conversational.

Lyrics are words to be sung, not spoken.


Bob

Great thread. Thanks for the laugh!

Hi, 9ne.
This isn't a discussion about whether what bugs us is reasonable or unreasonable. It's just to find out different reactions to phrases.

That's why I said in the beginning :

(No naming names please. I am looking for phrases not people )

Hi, Bob! Thanks for stopping by and replying.

Hi, David! Glad you enjoyed it.

JeanB

Well Jean, my post did focus on the reaction to a phrase! I removed the names from the post but really, there was no intent to put anyone down.

Thanks, 9ne. I appreciate it.


JeanB

The word "cheesey" or any words that are un-pro sounding! I personally like JMO, and all of it'srelation, let's me know to keep listenin' to other comments?
Very interesting thread, and even though I see 9ne's point, some like to be reminded who they are talking too sometimes, and that they are no bigger or smaller thn the rest of us! JMOlol
kc

frankly - i just think they're overused, empty, and useless comments. seriously. whenever i hear somebody drone on about the "imagery" in a song it makes me want to gag. i've heard it a million times before.

it's not that i hate imagery, or hate catchy choruses. in fact, i love those things.

it's that i'm sick of the (all-too-common) handful of stock phrases that most self-proclaimed "critics" of songs trot out when the want to say something intelligent about someone's song. i'd rather talk about the real stuff.

is that more clear?

It bothers me when people tell me:
"Oh my, I'm afraid that sucks skanky bongwater.."
and
"Where'd you learn to write, K-mart?!"

-gp

I raise my hand and am guilty of using "great imagery" in my critiques.

I do this as sort of an Aplus in a area even good writer's can't seem to get a grasp of.
so if you have a good grasp of imagery (putting the listener in the story)... in my opinion, you're half way home!!

And even if a writer doesn't know anything about format, structure etc.. if they can PAINT a picture with words... I'll be the first one to jump in and try to help because it's such a natural talent to have, others (like me) have to really really work at it! LOL

yeah, i'm not saying imagery is bad. on the contrary, it's important as hell.

it just seems to me that it's a phrase that gets used when the person giving the critique can't think of anything else to say.

NONE. I appreciate every single word anybody say about a song of mine

Juan

I feel exactly as Juan, I appreciate every single word anyone has said about my songs. They took the time to download, listen and reply...what more could you ask?

I am bugged a bit by people who remain anonymous and hide behind a user name and provide no info on their profile page....regardless of what they have to say..

I give a lot more credence to people who have their own website, belong to a PRO, have released their own material, reply to your critiques and e-mails.. it speaks to their professionalism and commitment...

Mike

Hi, Juan and Mike!

Are there common phrases or statements that people often use in critques that bug you whether or not you are the person being critqued ?

This would include negative approaches to critiques, put downs as well as harmless ones.

So if you see another person being put down in a critque, that doesn't bug you at all?


JeanB

I feel for folks....when I see a "direct" put down......Jean.... especially when you know they're really trying. Thankfully it's rare that anyone says "you just can't write"....but when I see that, "it stings".
so much better and more helpful...to say ..
"Try this"......or "how about...this" approach.....it's received a lot better I would think.

On the other hand,.....we probably all need to thicken
our skin..... and the typewritten word..can be so misleading....So many times, I really think...it's our own frame of mind at the time of reading that causes problems. I think we all read things into words...that really aren't there.
If we all assume the critiquer's
motive is only to help us.... we'll see things in a different light. I know I've mis- judged critiques before...just because of the person's personal delivery style...
It's something I'm aware of ...and am working on.

best wishes gal.....
KK

Well, Jean, I didn't mean I aree with everything I'm told on critiques. On my last song critiqued, I was told 'it's a good lyric, but you need a good melody for it'. The thing is I really like the melody and during this weekend I've played for pro writers like Marc Alan Barnette or Kim Copeland and they all told me it's one of the best melodies they've heard from me.
Still it didn't bug me when that person said that, because it's an opinion just as respectable as mine.

And for those times I've been bashed with something like 'you just can't write', it doesn't bug me, it motivates me, because it makes me work harder so the next time I post a song, that person has to say 'man, I was wrong, you can write'.

Juan

I don't know what that Siegel character's on about;
"I am bugged a bit by people who remain anonymous and hide behind a user name and provide no info on their profile page....regardless of what they have to say.."

Everything on those profile pages could be made up. I give my addy out to people that ask for it, people I respect. I don't want to change an e-mail because some jerk keeps spamming... Personally I let my work stand for itself. If someone gives me a critique and I find they can barely write their name, then I'll have to consider that. On the other hand, even an amateur can come up with something useful. I've said before ALL critiques are useful; especially when you DO them!
P.S. IMHO, IMO etc. they ARE still silly!


[This message has been edited by 9ne (edited 08-05-2003).]

really?

you do realize that any schmuck with a checkbook can do any of these things.

i actually give no credence to any of those things.

I got way behind in my acknowledgements. Sorry. I hope you don't mind if I thank you all as a group. I have found all the comments very interesting.

LOL, I haven't seen the two phrases that bug me (whether in a critique or not) but I will wait a while and see if anybody else mentions them.

JeanB

I should have left my post at this "I am bugged a bit by anonymity".... of all bulletin boards, phone calls, junk mail, spammers ...

and I'm guilty of profiling- I'm curious if this person has a face, a name, and where they are coming from... I like to know who I'm talking to... and something about their gaols and background....

of course an amateur can make astute comments, and someone more professionally involved could miss the boat...

let me take my foot out of my mouth...

mike

mike -

that's true enough. i see what you mean. i had a knee jerk reaction to the "PRO" thing -- I don't bother licensing any of my stuff and I thought maybe you were implying that people who didn't were somehow less trustworthy. which is obviously *not* what you were saying.

- kit

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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

I have no problem with the phrases,

"Good imagery" and "It flows well." The first tells me that the reader/listener is visually transported to a situation described within the lyric--always a good thing. The second tells me that there are no obvious stumbling places that make the reader/listener think, "Huh? That doesn't make sense" or "That's un-singable."

Cliches exist because they so accurately depict something that almost everyone knows their meaning. They're pithy phrases that say much without requiring a lot of words. (Yeah, I know--unlike some of my posts... )

So I don't care if my reviewers are clever or original in their comments...just that they take the time to do a careful and just critique.

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www.mp3.com/crisisrocks
www.dianatyler.com

I guess it's my turn now.

Two phrases that come to mind are:
"I hate to burst your bubble" and "I hate to rain on your parade."

To me those phrases come across as either disparaging or condescending whether in critiques or otherwise. It's no biggie really. Apparently, it only bugs me, LOL.

JeanB

Cliched phrases that come to mind:
- driving rhythm section
- a who's who of (fill in the blank)
- looks that girls envy and guys lust after


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Marian Mastrorilli
mastrose@aol.com
http://www.projectmercury.net

Hope to not "burst anyone's bubble" here... (winking at Jean;-) ... but I'd like to address Mike's comment about anonymous people here... even though his foot is officially out of his mouth...
I'm one of those people. I don't have a website, I don't have a band. I have some crap blown onto cassettes here and there and you can hear me play on my answering machine.
Playing and making my own music is a fantastic way for me to release myself. Hence I mostly play, rather than write.
My desire is growing to be heard, my desires are growing towards more songwriting..but I feel no pressure to get anywhere with it, nor do I have any belief I'll shake the world soon.
Yet I love music. It's the background to my life. I spend enormous amounts of time listening to and supporting artists both close to home and afar, mainly through all the work I do for the songwriters circle I assist with.
I've heard more singer-songwriters in the last year than most people I know of, and I take mental notes, I remember their weaknesses and adore their strengths. I'm a thinker, an analyzer...and I've been quite dedicated to assisting other artists...with my time and promotional efforts, commentary, and indirect monetary support.
So... on the members page, where are the blanks I'm supposed to fill in which tell you who I am?
Those blanks are not there. And that's why it falls short of really making any kind of statement about the members.
Where our hearts and minds are do a lot better job of telling who we are.
-GaryP

(Jean winking back.)

I hate it when someone says:

"I could've eaten Alphabits for breakfast and crapped a better lyric before lunch!"

That REALLY bugs me!

ROFLMAO!!! Great one Holly!

-Gary