JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum ASCAP fees for small venues

That's cool, Jody, what do they do if you played a place that didn't pay them? Do they go after that place? If more people knew that, SESAC might become the singer/songwriter PRO (if, for all I know, they're not already!)

I don't know what they do. I just know that you can provide them with where you played. What the cover was. What the turnout was. Where you were on the billing and then they pay you accordingly.

Jody

The PRO's are abolishing themselves, just like the "music industry" as we know it is. Piece of history like buggy whips. They only exist by a lucky break anyway, came along when juke boxes were replacing live music. LIVE MUSIC is the only way. Recorded music is anti musician. But that's sure true.



With out those entry level people there is NO music. And that's the problem with the system, kill the goose and you get no eggs.

Doug.
Unless the pro you belong to is really broken, if you heard one of your songs being performed at a venue, you, yourself could have entered it on a live playlist submission to your pro, and not only would have you got your buck, but both the venue, and the performer would then be nown to the pro as playing songs under their umbrella.
That is how it works with my PRO and should with yours.
No good winging about what is wrong if you aren't prepared to do something toward getting things working.
If you aren't in a PRO, I suppose you could ask the performer to buy you a drink and tell the punters you wrote the song as an alternative, but I would suggest you plan your drinking for the night on it happening.
Graham

Doug,

The idea that recorded music is anti-musician is not unique. James Petrillo, president of the Musician's Union early last century, thought the same thing. He shut down recorded music for about a year. The only hit records that year were an a capella piece and some songs by the Harmonicats (the harmonica, then, was considered a "toy" by the musician's union.) The problem was, in the older days radio stations hired musicians to play music for their programs. When recording became "broadcast quality" stations started playing records (interesting side story, Bing Crosby was one of the first to broadcast music on his program, he'd record one program, then fly to another location and play the record.) Petrillo and his union forced the labels to the table (hey, that's a lyric "..he brought the labels to the table in the union radio fable...uh...I'll get back to the story) and started, among other things, the recording industry trust fund which is still used to provide music for hospitals, retirement homes and civic groups. Of course, as time went on, musicians hated the idea that there should be a minimum wage or that folks hiring musicians should provide any benefits, so the union, as it is today, could never organize such a strike. Again, we bite the hand that feeds us. But that's another argument for another thread.

So, if what you say is true, then there's no problem. In just a matter of time, the PRO's will be gone. Clubs won't have to pay either for musicians or songs, and we'll all be amateurs. Nirvana...wait, they got paid and their songs were covered by a PRO!

All the Best,
Mike

Recorded music today is just Milli Vinilli (sp?)

Not a musician but a engineer.

Generalising rarely helps a debate.
Particularly when it is not related to the issue.
We are talking about Live performance and venues aren't we?
Weren't we?
Can we?
Graham

Put me in the camp that believes a PRO system overhaul is LONG overdue.

I think that just like major label authority is slipping in the eyes of the indie/DIY movement, public support for the PROs is going to continue to erode under the current system.

True or not, the public perception is that tiny venues are getting hammered with extortionist threats from a PRO system that only serves the Big Labels. It's hard to feel bad for millionaires when the local Java Joint where you and your friends practice your craft gets threatened with a lawsuit.

I'll be sure to tell myself that next time I'm recording a song. I'm not a musician, I'm an engineer. <-- sarcasm.

Methinks Doug is a troll, or one bitter musician. Seriously Doug, if you're this worked up about it, I think you need to go out and be the change that you desire to see. Just let me know when you're performing one of my songs so that I can make note of it.

Jody

Humm,
Pro's only pay songwriter's and publishers, if there is one, and the songs get surveyed. I don't think the Pro's are going under anytime soon as they collect royalities for many, many oldies that have been playing for ages on radio. Have you listened to an oldies station lately? And those recordings still sell so the money adds up over time.

The PRO's can only go "under" if the US Government changes the laws and says Songwriters aren't entitled to royalties anymore and/or that there is no longer a blanket license. If that happened Venues are SCREWED. They would have to pay, individually and under threat of lawsuit, each and every single songwriter 1 at a time for each and every song performed. If they didn't, a songwriter could file lawsuit each time and I believe isn't the penalty for infringement $10,000 dollars and up per violation? So one night's worth of performances could result in a legal bill of a half million dollars per night for a 5 hour show. Scary eh? That's why there's a is a statutory rate and that's why the PRO's aren't going anywhere. Like it or not, the system protects the venues WAY more than the songwriters and publishers. I assure you the Beatles catalog owners would LOVE the mandatory blanket license to go away. They'd probably be worth 100,000 times due to court liability on the behalf of any live venues instantly if that happened because few venues could possibly keep track of every song performed. It won't happen.

Using music in a venue is no different than using Electricity. If you want it, you pay for it. If you don't pay, they turn it off. If you steal it, you'll eventually be caught and prosecuted. Your choice.

Brian

Brian

I've had a number of PRO cases, and I've never had one of their claims progress to the point where lawyers are involved without the PRO having developed pretty solid proof of the infringement that they are prepared to present in Court. As to the idea posed above about a PRO monitoring a venue and then only charging for the particular songs in their catalog that were infringed, that's exactly what they do. Unfortunately, the law provides statutory damages for intentional infringement (read my post above about the award of $10,000 per infringement) as a way to discourage people from ripping off artists. So the PRO only has to go after the infringement of a few songs to make the suit very worthwhile. Also keep in mind that the money collected by the PROs (including settlements, and statutory damages) from the infringement of their catalogs of music goes back to the artists.
As to the comment about whether people actually come to the venue because CDs are being played over the PA, I can tell you that the way the Courts decide these cases, they generally find that the music is in fact the reason that people show up. There are caselaw decisions that say the music is used to create "atmosphere" to attract customers from which the owner derives a profit. It would be terribly unfair to allow people to profit from the use of the music without paying the artists whose brains and sweat created it.
Finally, as to the cost associated with a small venue, it's absurd to think that the PROs are in the business of harassing small businesses to get them to stop using music. To the contrary, the PROs and the artists they represent WANT the venues to use the music, because that's how the PROs and the artists get paid. They don't set fees that are ridiculous or that are going to discourage licensees from signing up. They do, however, put some teeth into their enforcement when the venue refuses to buy a license, takes an in-your-face attitude, and basically steals the music. It is not beyond the PRO to prosecute the theft (that's what it is - stealing) by a particular venue to set an example for other venues and to send a message about how you had better buy a license of stop using the music. On the other hand, we have settled cases in which the venue eventually sees the light and agrees to buy a license. They pay a little more to resolve the case, as a slap on the hand for being naughty and to discourage them from doing it again, but the PRO generally doesn't want them to go out of business. They want the venue to sign up and add to the flow of income for the artists, which is in everyone's best interests.
Of course - there is still the alternative. You can always stop using the music. You can create atmosphere in other ways. I also play at a local coffee house that has a rule that performers can ONLY use their original compositions. They don't cater to the crowd who wants to hear covers, and they don't care, and they don't pay a PRO, and they don't get bothered because the PROs know its not their intention to be using anything from the catalog.

My county of 10,000 people in one town of 2000 people had 9 venues with live music in 1937, last year the last one closed.

Show me a single place with more venues with live music today than 50 yrs ago that has the same population or even close to the same population.

Since the number of live music venues by percentage of population has decreased everywhere in the last 70 years, and since PROs license not only live music, but also DJs, Juke boxes, etc., and since DJ clubs have increased while live music has decreased, and since it is well known that bars and nightclubs are among the business ventures that generally have the shortest overall life span, I'm not sure of the relevance of your question or what you are trying to prove by your premise. I only know of one nightclub here in town that has live music 7 nights a week. We used to have several. The rest have cut back considerably, and the cut backs have nothing to due with licensing since all of the better venues here have PRO licenses.