JPF Home Page Forums Musician Gear and Techniques Music Theory and Education What's your favorite "off chord?"

Here in Nashville, we call chords other than the one, four and five (In C, that would be: Cmajor Fmajor and Gmafor), "off" chords.

If a song went:

C F C G Aminor G C

Then the A minor (or six minor) would be the "off" chord.

Some songwriters favor the six minor, some favor the two major, and some like the flatted seven. What are your favorite "off" chords?

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Mike Dunbar Music

In that particular progression, I've got a song ("This Gift's for You") that uses the Am you cite...but the real "interest" chord in that particular song and progression is the Ab7.

You can hear it at http://www.dianatyler.com/dtlisten.html

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www.dianatyler.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike Dunbar:
[Some songwriters favor the six minor, some favor the two major, and some like the flatted seven.

Two Major? Do you mean Dmajor in the key of CMajor? Isn't that really V/V in C? Not trying to be a pain here but is that the way Nashville guys would refer to it?

j



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Arlington Park Sound
Design

In Nashville, we'd call the five of the five (D major in the key of C major) a two. In the Nashville number system, a number by itself is just assumed to be major.

1245 would be Cmajor Dmajor Fmajor Gmajor.

12-45 would be Cmajor Dminor Fmajor Gmajor. (the minus sign after a number denotes minor.)

Last Saturday, for example, the singer called out an old Webb Pierce song that I only vaguely remembered. I asked him, "What's the off chord in the bridge?"
"It's a two!" he replied, so, in the key of A, I played a B major in the bridge.

All the Best,
Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

Ahhhhh Nashville...

A world unto its own.

Good Prince Gaylord...how art thou this fine day..?

Is it true that the hole in the ozone has positioned itself over Briley Parkway ?

Is thy number chart for the Chopin guitar pull in readiness ?


Jeeeez !

OK...OK...on topic..


In the key of C I like the way an E7 chord sounds....it can set up a move to the relative minor and some progressions centering around it..or signal a complete key change to A major...

"off" chord....hmmmm never heard that...

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 11-15-2003).]

Bob,

I also love the E7 after the C.

Yeah, old Nashville is a strange breed of hound. Briley Parkway has been expanded, it runs from the airport to the jail, right past Gaylord's mansion and right past my house on Dickerson Road.

I'm off to Gaylord's now. I've got to chauffer my teenage daughter and two of her friend's from Opry Mills movie complex back to our respective homes. No gigs tonight, tomorrow I watch the football game and master some tracks.

Yeppers, we call 'em "off" chords. Anything that isn't a one, four, or five.

Hope to see you in February up in Chi town.

Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

Had a mess around with this and currently playing it as aas a 16 bar thing.
c13/c13/g9/c13/
c13/c13/g9/c13/
f7/g9/f7/g9/
f7/g9/aflat7/c13/
Doesn't sound too bad at all.
Thw Aflat thing is the same as I often use in E with the B7/c7/e I use to distraction.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Me, too. The Beatles used that change effectively.

Jack Bruce used to use alot of off chords, so many in fact that they nicknamed them "Jack Off Chords"

Herbie

Hey Mike,
I have one in mind, but I can't tell you what it is! Perhaps your exquisite knowledge can ring in here.
I stumbled onto this in a fingerstyle episode, key of C, using A minor and variations of F & G... I developed an intro which begins with A minor (standard position) and for the next chord I simply move my index finger to the first fret of the bass string while leaving the rest of the Am intact. I love the way it sounds, and for some reason it all sounds best when capoed up one fret. One can focus on the lower notes and then pinch across the entire formation to get a really powerful sound.
Care to define the chord?

-Gary

Gary,

Very Spanish sounding. The notes are F A E A B E. In the context of the Aminor, I'd call it an Fmajor7add11. Root, third, seventh, third, eleventh, seventh.

It sounds like the chord Mason Williams used before the horn section in "Classical Gas" (anybody know what that chord actually was?)

Truly a very "off" off chord.

Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

Herbie,

Those are great chords for an AUTOharp.

Should be played with vibrato.

How's the Herbie-oke going?

Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

Hey thanks Mike! Now when somebody asks me, I'll call them an idiot for not knowing the name of such an easy chord..LOL (I believe in my case we would refer to that as "artificial intelligence")
And you are correct... a definite spanish sound there. I digs it plenty.

Haven't played Classical Gas...but I'm definitely familiar with the tune. Should give it a go. Seems to me the song changes keys as it goes into the horn section, so the chord would no doubt be a strange transitional creature.

By the way.. I just realized my own strange little chord sounds entirely nice used up the neck in it's open position. Ah..so kewl!
Welcome to the Wide World of Musical Discovery, with Mike Dunbar!

Alrighty then! New chords! New Tunes!...
"...a whollllllle newwwww worrrrrrld..."
-Gary

Gary,

My bad. It's an F maj7 with a flat five, not an eleven (eleven would have been the Bb, the B acts as a Cb) That's what I get for looking at these chords after my four martini lunch.

Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

Mike, as a chord extension it is called a #11, falling outside the first octave. Best to you! Ed Bertrand

Hang on guys. If the bloke moves his index finger to the first fret sixth string, that fourth string plays open so the notes are F A D A C E, so in F it has 1 3 6 3 5 7.
That reads to me as an F6M7
Graham(now I can have that whiskey sandwitch.ie. a shot slammed twix two Fosters) H

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Graham, and you can barre that one up the frets, and add the 10, and double-over your ring-finger to double-stop the two top strings (on nylon)...it's a treasure trove of harmonic happy-tude! Best to you! Ed

Graham, right you are sir. Chords change their names more than the artist formerly known as the artist formerly known as Prince.

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Mike Dunbar Music

I think Price is back to being Plain Old Prince agin Mike.
Believe I got it on pretty reliably authority he has gotten around the legalities of it all and now can call himself himself himself.
And I didn't even know he was Irish.
I can't see anything else to call this chord Mike given it has all the notes of the stated chord in it.
Make me a list will ya Cobber?
If he did in fact leave the A minor shape unaltered and devised a method of also playing the chord. Maybe using his thumb, it would be an FM7 F A E A C E.
Hey Ed. I can tell by the fingering you have never shorn sheep for the best part of your life.
My fingers would never be able to bend around that one I am sure Cobbere.
Thank goodness for alternative tuning.
Dumb thing is I can make a B7 shape easy but can not make make an effective barre chord in any form.
Graham (The artist now known as Arthritis Albert) H

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Graham,

Now I'm getting confused, nothing new to me.

If I play a standard Am chord it reads, bottom to top, E A E A C E. If I move the first finger (C) to the first fret of the sixth string (F), I get F A E A B(Cb) E. which from bottom to top is: root, third, seventh, third, sharp four/sharp eleven(flat five), and finally seven. I don't see a sixth.

Ed, I like the sharp eleven, but there is no fifth (C). if you wrote FM7add#11, many musicians would play some inversion or combination of: F A C E B. FM7b5 would be read fully as: F A Cb(B) E.

All the Best,
Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

No. It is me that was confused.
I moved the wrong finger giving me a D.
Haven't been able to come up with what to call that chord the bloke is playing I am afraid. put it on my list of altereds for the moment. It's a E sus bar for the F.
Whoops.
GRaham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Hey there, Mike- Herbie-oke just had it's best evening (see the Chicago board) thanks for asking. I'm excited, a poster named Mgal just got me hooked up with a man who teaches voice a Northwestern and I have my first lesson with him on Wed. I hope he can help me sing better. I'm going to start work on a demo of my originals next year, and I want to be ready. Someday I'll make it to Nashville to say helllllllloooo to you and Kay-lynn. Have a great Tday.

Herbie

PS my favorite off chord, currently, is going from one to just a half step down from it. I have a new song and that step led me into a whole new chord progression (I'm not learned enough to tell anyone why, but it worked for me)

Ah, the "Heartaches" chord. In that song you move from the one chord to the seven as a major chord, back to the one chord, then you walk the chords down chromatically to the six major. It evokes Rudy Vallee in a college sweater with a megaphone. It was a very popular off chord in the period between ragtime and jazz.

It's about time someone used it again.

All the Best,
Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

dont know if this is considered an "off chord" or not but i like going from the 1 to a minored 5 to either the 4 or a minor 2nd back to the 1....

-stephen-
www.stephenarout.com


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I've never been that musically literate ... my sojourns into this forum are an effort to help remedy that. (Kudos to all you regular participants.) I had a favourite chord that consisted of a variation of an E chord (2nd and 4th strings, second fret; the rest open), which is very much like an A7 form moved up a couple strings. Somebody told me this chord was an e4 sus ... would anybody care to confirm this?

Also, if I play a B7 chord form, minus the B on the second highest string, what chord does that leave me?

I must confess, I am more known for off key than off chords.

Regards
Bruce

You know what chord I love? In Nashville it would be a b7/1, played in the 1 or root position.

In the key of C it would be, C F Bb D. I can think of two great songs that used this chord as a root: "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'" and "Hey Girl" ( a great Carole King song sung by Freddie Scott). In both songs, the chord alternates with a 1 chord. The effect is lush and beautiful.

Of course, it is the same structure as the more common 4/5 chord, but using it in the root position is what makes it so cool.

The opening chord to "Hard Day's Night" is some kind of variation on it. Now THAT is a controversial little piece of music history. Do any of you guys have YOUR version of that chord? I do, and I am convinced that the key to it is it MUST be played on a 12-string in order to sound "right."

The perverse world of disonant guitar voicings has led guitar players into a murky world of obtuse chord names.

the correct spelling for this one is simply Bflat over C.

It's been written that way forever but suddenly guitar players have decided it needs a new name.

I'ver never heard of a 4/5 chord...
sounds like another gidar player invention.

How do you get a guitar player to turn down ?

Put some sheet music in front of him !

Maybe it's the onset of tablature...
I dunno....

My version of the Hard Days Night chord is...
First finger first fret b string....third finger third fret E (ist) string..

Then hit all 6 HARD !

I agree...it only sounds cool on a 12 string

We guitar players can be a troublesome bunch !

Bob

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 01-06-2004).]

Well, Bob....we have had this conversation before about the Nashville system. I don't swear by it, but I have become accustomed to it from having worked mostly with Nashville pickers over the last few years.

In numbers parlance, b7/1 IS the same thing as Bflat over C, if you are in the key of C. It is also F over G, if you are in the key of G and so on. But you know this.

Given the way records are done in Nashville, the numbers system is a very useful convention. Often, the leader, who writes up the charts for the sidemen, does not know the key they will be recording in when he does the charts, so using numbers is a nice little short cut that prevents having to redo charts. Time is money.

There is also a nifty little sign language thingy that a lot of those guys know, that allows a leader to conduct a band thru a song by watching hand signals instead of reading charts. I think he uses only one hand. It's actually pretty amazing to see really good pickers do this. As long as the leader knows the changes, the band can fake just about anything with no charts at all.

I imagine Mr. Dunbar knows how this is done.

Well, I've gotten a few finger singals from bandleaders in my time, but I don't think that's what you are talking about.

Mostly they just flash you the numbers. Just last week at a gig we played a song I didn't know. The fiddle player flashed me the numbers with hand signals. Luckily there wasn't a six in the song or he would have had to drop his bow.

Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

Years ago, I saw a demonstration of the signaling system on Ralph Emery's old "Nashville Now" tv show. As I recall, it was rather intricate, and he did it all with one hand, and played piano with the other. Fascinating. I think, to indicate a minor, he flashed a number, then made a fist, but I could be wrong.

I am very familiar with that OTHER signal you mentioned. It usually comes from a drummer just after you've accused him of speeding up the tempo.

Just to follow up, the 'Hard Day's Night" chord is Dm7add11, a barre chord done:

333333
x5.55. (THANKS Graham!).

Cisco, that chord of yours sounds nicer when done as an incomplete major:

1...oo
...2..
.33...

It moves cleanly over the 'white key' majors (and F#), with the open BE giving a pseudo-12-string effect.

My favorite off chord is whatever sounds cool! In Climb the Mountain (Real) , at the end of the bridge, there's a keyboard progression starting Cm6 spelled as C A Eb G, that basswalks back up to the G that starts the next verse, C D Eb F, while the interior note of the RH voicing moves down Eb D C Bb, creating in the F chord a 349 (major/sus4/9), something I'd never done before, but it sounds cool. Tho the C D and Eb chords can be done on guitar, that last F can't, owing to the m2 interval. On guitar I play it as Eb/F, or b6/b7 to you number-crunchers.

Best to youall! Ed


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edx.iuma.com www.soundclick.com/40LOVE www.soundclick.com/EdX

That does not sound right to me at all. However, it sounds right if you are playing the song in F. So, if you move your chord up to the 5th fret, it sounds good in G (the Beatle's key), and it is almost, but not quite, the same as Bob's chord (basically an Am7).

Ironically, Ed, your chord is the one I used to use, but I played it using open strings: Mute the 6 string, then A D G C E. And, as Bob said, hit it hard! Your chord, played at the 5th fret is: A D G C E A--identical except for the high A. I believe the ring of the open strings is a little more authentic-sounding.

The difference in the Bob chord and the Ed/Truman chord is Bob's contains no D, and I believe that D is in there.

'

Tru, you're right, I misspelled it; I believe it's actually:

x33333
_5_5__ mute D F C D G (sorry for the style change, I just want it all to line up)


HDN is in G, yes? And the opening chord is the 5minor with a G sounding on top. It's a barre G7sus4 minus the root. Anybody?


[This message has been edited by ed323 (edited 01-08-2004).]

Bob's chord contains a D...

4th string open is a D...

my chord isn't an am7

don't know what the name is...

don't care !

It's the Hard days night chord to me..

can't imagine using it any other way...

remember the only two fingered notes are C on the second string and G on the ist string..

the hand signalling system used in the whole world (the whole civilized world so that would exclude Nashville) is shrps up, flats down..

1st finger up for one shrp or G, two fingers up for two shrps or D etc...

one finger down for F two for B flat extc...

C is a Cshaper with thumb and first finger...

making a C shape sideways signifys minor

6 sharps or flats gets five fingers and a quick one finger and a glare from horn players.

I've led 15 piece bands thru hours of standards using the signs..

also lots of jobbing piano and bass players that didn't know the changes to rock tunes...

forgot...

fist means we're going out at the next logical place

crossed fingers means coda

tap on the head means back to letter A or the top of the tune..

making a stretching sign means we're goping to vamp the ending..

Lots of other signs having to do with seeing the ----ing bass player is looking up the hostesses dress...

Bob Young

It used to be, in New York,it was fingers up for flats and sharps down because the flats were more common to the horn bands.

You can tap the bridge of your nose to go to the bridge.

Making a circle in the air with your hand or finger can mean the tag.

An old square dance/country/fiddle tune trick is to raise your leg behind you when you come to the end of a song.

I often work square dances with a great Texas drummer named Jann Jones. Jann plays a country swing that would make you want to cry, it's so good. When we play a fiddle tune for a square dance, I signal to Jann, who happens to be blind, by playing a whole note one measure before the ending.

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Mike Dunbar Music

Yep, Bob. I misread your post, and thought you were fingering the E (second fret, 4th string, making Am7). In fact, then, your HDN chord and mine are identical, except that I never play the G on the first string. I get high G from the open 3rd string octave on the 12-string.

Funny thing is, I can't rmemeber if I actually figured that chord out, or if I just hit it one day and thought, "Hey....."

I have read all KINDS of stuff about this chord, but I think yours (and mine) is correct. Sure sounds right to me.

Too bad we can't ask George.

That is so cool.

That's right Mike..

The first time I took the band to New York we had to hire some guys from the New York local to meet union minimum requirements.

I started flashing signs and the New York guys went "hey" !

I asked them why they did it backwards and they gave just the reason you did.
They said only hillbillies played in sharp keys...
I said "thank you very much", said --- the union and never hired a New York guy again !

That is a great story about cueing the blind guy...
My band...Hell...we just would have stepped on his foot or thrown something at him.

My favorite blind musician joles...

Have you seen Ray Charles' new piano ?
Neither has he !

What is "Endless Love" ?
That's a tennis match between Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder.

Truman..

I got the chord from some Brit I met at a NAMM show a very, very, long time ago.
I like the extra jangle from the second G note...
Both sound right tho...

Bob

Favorite "off" chord is a C#7, played as an "open" B7 (not barred) just moved up 2 frets. Sounds like a castrated B7 and works really well in a blues in E.

Joe

I should be scared jumping into this mud puddle with all you guitar players and your weird lingo, but what the heck?

My current favorite chord is a major 7th. I stick it in wherever I can (well, where it sounds good). In a few weeks I'll probably have a new favorite.

I couldn't even read some of your posts because I have no idea what you dudes are talking about.

I'm glad my fellow band members speak the same lingo I do! If somebody starts signing numbers, I'm going to have to do something drastic at the piano to reign them in! We only have two guitar players in the band, so I still have them under control! --Jean