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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
JPF Mentor
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OP
JPF Mentor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574 |
Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti Do Your average jazz chords are built on Sol (ask bob young why) Start with Sol and sing or play every other note: Sol Ti Re (there's your major chord) Fa (Now it's a seventh chord) La (there's a ninth) Do (your eleventh) Mi (voila, the thirteenth!) Comments, Questions, Tangents? ------------------ Mike Dunbar Music
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
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Joined: May 2001
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Top 10 Poster
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I got a question Mike. Haven't figured how the post is relative to the subject line so please explain how any of the above makes a 13th easy?????? And inasking this, I may even get another wonder answered with a bit of luck. A thirteenth is 1 3 5 flat7 9(11) 13 according to my book of chords. And that is my wonder. What does the 9 (110 mean? Are they optional choices or something? Playing sol ti re ( 5 7 2) in C gives you the G chord. Graham (you are a bit ahead of me but I'm trying) H ------------------ http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
JPF Mentor
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OP
JPF Mentor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574 |
Hey Graham, Well, for your first question, strictly speaking, a thirteenth chord needs to have a root, third, fifth, flatted seventh, ninth, eleventh, and thirteenth. Because the guitar has only six strings, you have to leave something out, also because the mind doesn't track several things at once, we rarely "hear" all of a thirteenth chord at once (I've practiced hearing a one seven with a two minor on top to hear a thirteenth, but they still baffle me at times.) That's why a lot of chord books look at certain notes as less important than others. This is, however, a matter of taste. Now, for the other question, the one of the chord is not necessarily the one of scale. For a further explanation of this, I'm going to refer you to (ha ha ha, I love this) bob young. All the Best to my Friend Down Under, Mike ------------------ Mike Dunbar Music
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 145
Serious Contributor
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Serious Contributor
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 145 |
Well, what happened in jazz was that they reduced the 13 chord to basically 5 or 4 notes, no matter what instrument was playing it... Basically the progression that would best illustrate this is the II-V... If in C major, you'd play the D minor ninth and there you have your 5 notes D-F-A-C-E.... However, for the G13,what would be played is the G in the bass, and in the treble F-A-B-E, here just having to move one finger to get the sound... When playing with a bass player, guys will play just the F-A-B-E and do whatever in the right hand... That particular voicing is the most common representaiton of 13th chord, since it has "the sound"... In the guitar, since it's tuned in 4ths, all you gotta play is F-B-E-A, and you're implying the 13th, if you have a bass player, or you can play the G in the root... Because it's a voicing in which 4ths predominate, it sounds even cooler, quartal harmony being a strong staple of jazz writing... www.123writemelody.com
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
JPF Mentor
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OP
JPF Mentor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574 |
Good stuff, Paul! Not being a jazz player, for the F13, I usually play F Eb A D G giving me the one, flatted seven, three, thirteen, nine. I learned this thirteen fingering from an arrangement of the song "Savoy Stomp", if you move it up to an A13 on the fifth fret, you get A, G, C#, F#, B. Then, move to a Gmaj7 on the third fret, voiced: G, D, B, F#, B, giving you the first two chords of "Savoy." It's an elegant sound and one that helped me, as a young guitarist, to memorize the sound of the thirteenth. Now, where's bob? Mike ------------------ Mike Dunbar Music
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 145
Serious Contributor
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Serious Contributor
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 145 |
That's the most pragmatic way of playing the 13th on the guitar,I've found too ![[Linked Image]](http://www.justplainfolks.org/ubb/smile.gif) If you're playing 7th chords whose root is on the 5th string, if you're playing a C13, just playing the C on the 5th and the Bb, E, A on the 3rd, 2nd and 1st strings respectively, will give you the 13th sound too... ------------------ www.mp3.com/paulradelat
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
JPF Mentor
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OP
JPF Mentor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574 |
I like that one too, Paul, I often play that with my third finger staying on the D on the second string, keeping the ninth in it, but the E on the second string sets up the thirteenth with a nice fourth. (sorry if we're losing some of you with all that LOL.) Mike ------------------ Mike Dunbar Music
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
Top 100 Poster
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Top 100 Poster
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372 |
Well, Mike...
Sorry to let you down..but you've gone past my knowledge perimeter !
I'm not sure what you mean about the fifth and the jazz chords and all that.....
I ain't never had no muzical ejercation so I jest kinda duz dem jass kords az best I cain !
I wish I could engage you in a discussion about this aspect of the game..but...my gun ain't loaded..Sorry !
About the thirteenth chords..
Herb was real good at playing whole songs and arrangements in a two or three fret spread..a real "position" fanatic.
He said he learned to do it as a young man so he wouldn't have to look at the guitar and he could look at the babes in the audience !
Later on it came in handy when he was with Steve Allen...Steve had no left hand to speak of and he really lked Herb playing those chunky lower [position chords while he soloed.
So...
If I see G 13 for instance..I play it on the thirds fret if I can..first finger third fret 6th string, second finger third fret fourth string, third finger fourth fret third string, and pinkie getting second and first string on fifth fret.
That gives me lo to hi G F B E A..
C 13 on third fret would be second finger third fret 6th string (for fifth in the bass) or 5th string for tonic in the bass..
First finger second fret fourth string, Third finger third fret third string and second string, and pinky fifth fret first string...
This gives me lo to hi G (or C) E Bflat D A
Both forms give a nice big thirteenth sound and make horn players smile !
Sorry about that other thing Mike..you just kind of outdistanced me on that one !
Bob
[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 11-22-2003).]
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
JPF Mentor
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OP
JPF Mentor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574 |
I've just run out and bought lottery tickets. If I've stumped bob young, then winning the lottery should be a snap. OK, Here's what I mean. When you build a thirteenth, you build with a root, third, fifth, flatted seventh, ninth, eleventh, and thirteenth. It's the flatted seventh that has an accidental on it and is not in the key of the root. For example, Bb, is not in the key of C...but it IS in the key of F. C E G Bb D F A. So, when you talk about a C thirteenth, you are spelling out an F scale...F G A Bb C D E. That's why I started out saying: start on Sol which, in the key of F, is C. Sol Ti Re Fa La Do Mi in the key of F is: C E G Bb D F A...a C13. And now, I'm going to bet my house on Vanderbilt. Mike ------------------ Mike Dunbar Music [This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 11-22-2003).]
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
JPF Mentor
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OP
JPF Mentor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574 |
bob, Vanderbilt lost to Tennessee 48 to 0. Can I move in with you? Mike ------------------ Mike Dunbar Music
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
Top 100 Poster
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Top 100 Poster
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372 |
Mi casa es su casa me amigo !
Just don't be expecting any damn grits !
We're still eggs and bacon around here !
Try to get here in time for the Bears/Denver game.
Ain't no such'a thing as the Tennessee Titans on my television.
Bob
sorry about Vanderbilt..that was some majopr ass-kicking !
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 297
Serious Contributor
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Serious Contributor
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 297 |
Hey! Grits is YUMMY, just have the fresh-churned butter on the table! Slice up all the bacon and eggs into the grits, and commence chowin'! Mm-MMMM! You Yankee snobs just don't know what good eatin' is!
Are the Bears as bad as the Bolts? If so, you might ask the cable folks to see if they can get rid of that pesky local-interference-masquerading-as-football-game, pronto!
Ed 'grits 'n' grins', 'su casa es mi casa' Bertrand
[This message has been edited by ed323 (edited 11-23-2003).]
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Top 10 Poster
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Top 10 Poster
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618 |
As so often happens when I read all this stuff in here, I had a play around with it all and came up with a little piece which , while it still has a couple of bits in it I don't like, is not too unpleasant on my ear. I have not recorded it or posted it anywhere yet but probabaly will later on this weekm if, A I think it is worth posting, B I find some words to fit it and, C remember. Thinking on it while waking today, I got sorry I went in 4/4 time and may re-do it in 8/8 or something else yet. So far it is callee Opus Thirteen for obvious reasons. Thing is, my thinking suggests I may have to use a couple of non 13th chords in it to get rid of the pieces that don't sit on the ear all that well at the moment. For the most part it sounds cool to me though. Graham (I don't know if I'm getting educated, but sure do have fun in here) H ------------------ http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm
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Joined: Jul 2001
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ED.....
Hey....
Don't call me a "Yankee Snob"
Grits ain't got no taste at all...sure they taste good if ya' drown 'em in butter...but hey...what doesn't ?
I don't dislike grits...I just can't figger out what all the fuss is !
I make lumpy cream of wheat, then cover it with butter and brown sugar !
Now THAT"S good eatin' !
Some thick white sausage gravy over buttermilk biscuits....
Oh Yeah ! Or go out there to Santa Fe and have some breakfast burritos with the red and green salsa...
Yippee !!!
Bob (settling down to steak, potatoes and a salad this evening) Young
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 297
Serious Contributor
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Serious Contributor
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 297 |
YEAH! Cream O' Wheat, butter n brown sugar! I know what I'M having for late-night yummy tonight! Thanks for the reminder, Bob!
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Top 10 Poster
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Top 10 Poster
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Posts: 13,618 |
You guys should try ya grits, or ya porridge made with Millet meal. Butter and mollassas on that and some skim milk powdwe stirred in sure is nice. makes nive flapjacks too. I just put my sung take of the Opus 13 up on my SongRamp sitre as Sopundclick is not working just nopw. Found that out trying to load the backing only take there. I slowed it down in the sing by the way. Here is the link: http://www.songramp.com/homepage.ez?Form.sess_id=392434&Form.sess_key=1029598506 It staryts off in C13 and goes up to the next fifth every four bars. Basically changing keys every 4 bars I suppose. C G D A E B F# C# G# D# F C. All 13ths. I had fun and sort of like it. Hope you do too. I'll try to finish the backing upload to Soundclick later. That is done at 132 and the sing is at 100 Gaham ------------------ http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 88
Serious Contributor
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Chesse Steaks with Wiz-- end of discussion
BLM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
Top 100 Poster
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Ya' know, Bluelizardman...
I was in your town for a gig a few months ago..
Stayed downtown at a beautiful hotel..worked a flashy party at another beautiful hote..
The people were very friendly, the skies were blue, children were laughing...
It was wonderful, AND they paid me a ridicvulous amount of money to be there !
BUT.....
I had my first Philly cheese steak, and my question is...
Are you kidding ?
What the Hell is the big deal..?..
It was nice..fashionably greasy..it was OK..
But no big deal..
And what's "wiz"
Here is Chicago if you say "wiz" you're not talking about something on a sandwich..
You're talking about something on a tenement wall when the bars close !
So God Bless Philadelphia and all who live there..but..
You can keep your Philly steak !
Bob
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Top 10 Poster
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Top 10 Poster
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Posts: 13,618 |
Yuk. That sounds not pretty to look at. I can't eat one of them meat and chese sausage thing because of how puss like they look. Toward the 13th thing. I am now having fun opening in a c13 going to the fifth 13 then to the 2nd ditto, calling that the key and going to it's 5th then back to the 2nd and repeating the proccess. Is a lot of fun I tell ya. I did go away from the chase 13th thing for the chorus' in the last one. Graham ( I may Play 13th forever) H ------------------ http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 145
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I think wiz is cheese in a can... Apparently, it does get worse... ------------------ www.soundclick.com/paulradelat
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
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"Gotta have a whiz" is a oft used expression down here. People tend to get real cheesed off when you do it on their house wall. Quite likely to call the perpetrator a Phillthy Bum. Me. I like mushrooms and burgangy sauce on mine. Steak that is. Graham ------------------ http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm
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