JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum "Lyric" forums should mostly be called "Poetry"

Hi Folks,
it's quiet in Australia tonight so I thought I'd stick my head in a hornets' nest!
In my humble opinion it's impossible to write a lyric for a song without a time signature and bars. As soon as the melody is added, as well as the positioning of words in bars, changes - some major - must be made to the lyric.
Until the sound of the words can be heard, the lyric cannot be assessed. Many great songs - "Rhiannon" (Fleetwood Mac) and "I will always love you" (Dolly Parton) come to mind. They are nothing as lyrics on paper, but add the melody and Kapow! HIT.
How Bernie Taupin and Elton John work I don't know - the story is that Bernie sends Elton a notebook of lyrics and from this Elton constructs songs - hard to believe.
I understand the shrewd addition of Lyric Forums to JPF because it allows many people who are not writing songs to take part in the community - plus some with talent will link up with a musician through the site and begin to be songwriters.
But please don't call most of these forums "lyric" they are not -they are pure poetry and should be appreciated as such.
OUCH - I can already feel the pain of a thousand stings!
Malenac

Hi Malenac! Personally, I just figured out that I can't call my song a song until it has music! Now you're saying that my song isn't even a lyric until it has bars and a time signature(whatever that is?) All I know is that I love to write and find myself writing short stories, lyrics and poems. I actually have a lyric that some have stated is too poetic! So, is it according to one's opinion and whether or not it can be played to music, sung or spoken? This isn't meant to sting..it's just me ranting on "what else do I have to learn to enjoy writing songs to sing"! Does it really need to be this difficult? Hope things are great in Australia! Linda

Can't agree with you Bloke.
What you have heard about bernie, and Elton, is, to the best of my knowledge (I heard Elton state it) is factual.
Dead easy.
If it recites, it will sing.
Doesn't always work the other way around as lyrics written to music, are often phrased , a la word stretches etc, to fit the melody.
Graham

When I read various fiction books, I occasionally find so called songs in the stories. I usually blow through these because, one, I detest poetry, and two, they come across to me as poetry, not song lyrics. Just for excrement and merriment, I will occasionally try setting one to a tune and give up quickly because the scan gets too complex in a hurry or just feels awkward.

One exception is a book I've read on a yearly basis for God only knows how long is Kenneth Grahame's "Wind in the Willow." In one scene, Mole and Ratty are caroled to by some field mice and the song they sing is in the book. For years, I blew past this because of my aversion to poetry (there's nothing wrong with poetry, it's just a personal taste thing) until a handful of years ago I actually read it and was blown away by the message it had! Even more, if FELT like a song so I tried putting it to music. It was unbelievably easy. The scan was perfect for every verse, no having to tweak the notation to allow for having one syllable in a place in a verse and two syllables in the same place in another verse, etc.

To answer the original unasked question, yes I feel poetry does not automatically qualify as lyrics; indeed, most of the time it does not. As far as the lyrics boards go, I never visit them so I can't comment on the content there.

Well, obviously, some written words are poetry, some are lyrics, and some are prose. The question is, who will decide which are which? I nominate Malenac!

Malenac, please read each lyric submission and write us a short opinion on whether they are lyrics, poetry or whatever. It doesn't have to be very detailed, just simply state your reason for your decisions.

Thanks,
Mike

yep.
I did the same to one of Jody Whiteside's posts one time as i recall jeannie.
And to a couple of Mike Dunbar's also.
Both are very rhythmic writers.

And yep Mike.
That should work just fine.
I was surprised at the green nameplate Mike.
I would have expected Purple to match your pencil.
Graham

Linda,

You should resize your avatar photo so that it's only 80 pixels tall. That way it won't squish it.

Brian

malenac,

It's always interesting to hear/read other people's points of view. Appreciate your bravery with this one!

And, as you might expect, I do disagree with you. I would agree that a compilation of words alone do not make a song...as a song needs a melody. And, not all compilations of words, even though they may rhyme and have some prescribed arrangement, constitute a lyric. And similarly, not all poetry or prose would would qualify to become a lyric. But, some do, IMNSHO.

The way I understand what you are saying would suggest to me, then, that there really is no such thing as a lyric, per se. And I do think that most people with creditable knowledge of music would indeed agree that there is such a thing as lyrics...an organized, structured arrangement of words that COULD have a melody, as defined by most reasonable people.

The way I see it, if a structured arrangement of words, such as those that are found on the lyrics forums here at JPF, has reasonable potential to acquire a melody...melody as defined by industry convention...it is indeed a lyric.

But, I do appreciate hearing your point of view. Anything that makes me think a little deeper is a worthwhile discussion, as far as I am concerned. Best to ya, and Merry Christmas!

Alan

Malenac....surely, you jest

I will agree with you that a number of lyrics posted on the lyric boards are poetry... and some composers like me would have a hard time putting them to music.
Truth is, a short while ago, we did have someone who was pretty much strictly a poet. and reading his poetry...it was clear to many that he had not written what we "generally" think of as lyrics. NOT that you couldn't have put them to music. after all, it does depend on styles, genres... all that.
I have found that some lyricists do write with considerable rhythm in their words. Almost always, if you take those lyrics and say them aloud...the rhythm and floe are pretty apparant.
Some (as we say on the lyric board) practically sing themselves.

I have a bit of a problem calling a lyric "a song" as some lyricists do... but I certainly have no problem whatsoever calling what they have written ... a lyric.

Malenac,
Most viable songs go through a series of rewrites, as for writing a first version, like most things, it comes in different shapes and forms. I have written lyrics first, melody first, music from start to finish first. The best feeling is when it is all in my head and I just have to get to my instrument with a paper and pen to put down what is going on in my brain.
Your hornets nest comes from assuming your experience to be superior. I participate in the lyric forums, and have great respect for a few of the writer's there. I also write music, sing, and perform, so your generalized statement shows me a narrow minded intellect, or maybe that was your frame of mind at the time of this post, in which case I'm only one of the stingers you expected. I know enough hit writers to know it comes in all forms, be it lyrically or musically originally inspired.
I have come to know you just a bit on these boards, and enjoy the work of yours I have heard. But to stand on the pedestal you have put yourself on here, let's just say I'll be chippin' away at that pedestal each time I catch you on it!! I am the type of guy who goes right through negative energy, and though a few things get under my skin, I'm quickly over it because I won't allow things to pull me down for long. Keep writin', keep rockin', no matter what part comes to you first...G'day Mate.
Moker

Thanks for all the above opinions - no I will not be assessing each "lyric" for qualification. If people are happy composing poems and calling them lyrics - that's fine by me, I just don't agree.
All I know is that a group of words, even in time and rhyming, do not make a song lyric. I guarantee that practically none of the "lyrics" on the boards ever see the light of day as songs.
Loreena McKennitt put the poem "The Lady of Shalott" by Alfred Lord Tennyson to music on her album "The Visit" and it works well - but it is a poem put to music not a song.
I still contend that it was a master stroke by Brian Austin Whitney to include the lyric forums because it increased the interest and membership of JPF enormously. I would guess the lyric boards are the most popular part of the whole site.
Malenac

gee wizz.
I am sure, and I say this because it seems the most logic explanation, not from any research on the matter, the word lyric was created to give the words part of a song a title, just likie the melody was given to that part of the music.
I would agree a lot of the lyrics on any forum may never see the light of day as part of a done song.
But I do believe a lot more of them are doing so because of the fact we do have places out there we can put our lyrics up in the hope a composer or two may hear them being sung enough to add the noise and stir.
Look on the MP3 forum and see how many of the lyrics do in fact make it to being sung.
Quite a few.
SongRamp with its writer's Room Forum, although way less active than JPF lyric, has a very high percentage of the lyrics put up there making it to being sung and showcased on Open Mike there.
Likewise, their Music Seeking Lyrics has a not to be sneezed at number of completed songs come out of it.
If it is sung, it is a song, no matter if the words were a poem or a lyric originally.
Graham

Malenac,
Got a question for ya. You wrote that a poem isn't a lyric until there are bars of music written to it. If I catch your drift correctly. If you strip the bars of music from a lyric , does it then become a poem ? The reason I ask , is that , sometimes folks write (fill in the blank) and have in their heads a tune , albeit , not written down in bars (though , some could have ben , I suppose) and call that little bit a head-tune. How do you feel about that one?
Pete

malenac,
This is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard -- UNLESS you have made a mistake and meant to say that lyrics are not "songs". Please clarify. As stated, your comment makes no sense. "Lyric" has several definitions . . . one being "a short poem of songlike quality." To say that the lyric forums only give people who don't write songs a chance to participate really shows your naivety -- many folks post on the lyric forums to improve their SONGS. There are innumberable hits songs with crappy lyrics . . . which is really sad. An awesome lyric can make a song great. Otherwise you better have a hell of a tune!! I wonder how you even know if someone who has posted a "lyric" has music for it or not -- that's a nifty trick -- I'd like to learn.
(By the way, anyone can write poetry -- heck, poetry doesn't even have to rhyme.)
So lovely to meet you, btw.

Firstly to Moker,
I merely expressed an opinion which I gather is the whole point of the forums - to communicate. Secondly I am not on a pedestal, I just want to encourage some response and thought from members. You, Moker, respond frequently, but I am very surprised at how few of the thousands of members ever contribute their thoughts and feelings on songwriting and music in general. It is the same few people answering questions, encouraging and supporting others and generally making the boards work. Over one hundred viewers have looked at my outrageous viewpoint but only a handful felt irritated enough to respond. All organisations suffer from the same malady - apathy. That is why you have the President you have in the USA - few care enough to make a difference - but I am not getting political - we are to do with music - still I think you get my drift. To most of you ZZZZZZZZZZZZ sleep on!
Malenac

Hey malenac,

When does the written word become a lyric ?.....when it is set to music. It is not a lyric until it has melody, it's simply a bunch of words.....though I don't know how you would classify rap ? ......oh, that's OK because that is also set to music ( including beat )

cheers, niteshift

Hate to tell you Malenac, but it is also the reason we get the lot we have making our minds up for us.
voting the party line is soooo easy.
Okay.
let's look at it this way.
You have been told Elton and bernie did (they are not doing anything together now as I understand it since Elton got the mansion fully furished), so, that being the case, your argument has been proven to be a litle less than watertight.
Now I only heard Elton say that was how they do it, so it may be just media hype on his part, and not quite factual.
Closer to home, I wrote a lyric Rain On The River, and sent it to Richie Pavledis Drummer for Common Man Band, and a good all round solo performer.
No bars, no nothing, and less than a week later, he sent me the working tape, and about six months later we performed it live for the first time.
Don't Cry that Chuck Crowe from here does, started out as a lyric in the forum here and Chuck ran with it.
They are just a couple of many lyrics I have had the same thing done.
And there are goodness knows how many lyric on forums, I have done the same thing to
Claudio Barberini in Rome has done six of my lyrics the same way, and i have written I forget how many lyrics to his music.
Tell us a bit about yourself Bloke.
Are you a composer?
Poet?
Lyricist?
Songwriter?
Other?
Hope you aren't in any of the fire areas whereever you are down here too by the way.
By the way.
I wasn't irritated by the post at all.
That facts put forward seem to be ignored is starting to bug me a bit mind.
Makes me wondr if this was posted for debate, or just to create a bit of a flutter.
Graham

Hey Graham,

Are you singing in the photo, or is that a beer I see in your hands it sure is hot enough lately !

cheers, niteshift

It is a harmonica Niteshift. Playing at The Hole In The wall Esperance.
yep here too re the heat. not bad today but tar melting yesterday.
Graham

Niteshift understands me and therefore must be a man of great intellect! (smile)
I challenge anyone to put a melody to most of the lyrics on the boards. Songs need light and shade and variety, not words that don't "sing" - the only songwriter I know who can write verse after complicated verse successfully is Bob Dylan - the Shakespeare of our time.
Graham is a musician, so he is able to compose lyrics and melodies, and can see in his mind how the final song might sound, so when he writes lyrics I am sure his experience enables him to visualise the final product. If you are not a musician and play no instrument I think it would be very difficult to visualise the melody - though not impossible. Even the great Lionel Bart who composed "Oliver" the stage show, found it necessary to use the piano and one finger.
I put a serious comment as a topic, but felt that, as most contributors write poems (lyrics), they would be irritated by my "outrageous" view. Obviously I was wrong as the replies were by the regular gang and no one else - I don't understand how you can be part of a "club" and not want to take part in discussions. If you are that placid you ain't going nowhere in the music business baby! I would rather see fiery comments and items that get the little grey cells working, rather than polite acceptance of everything.
Get involved folks and be part of something good!
Graham you obviously don't visit the MP3 forum or you would know what I do!
Malenac

Well actually, I am not a musician.
I am a writer who decided to learn enough music to be able to make my own bed tracks as I was sick of begging musician to try my poems out to a tune.
I did that for 20 years but no more.
Not now I know music is the easy bit.
It is the melody and words that take the labour and a bit of a think, and i always had them, and mostly together.
Sure I suck a bit of harmonica now and then, but I have to breathe anyway so figure I might as well put that to a bit of use too, but musician nope. Just a noisy poet.
And no, I don't get to MP3 a lot as I am kept busier than I want to be listening to the daily crop on SongRamp Open Mike.
But I will check you out.
It would have been way time saving if you had told me though.
Graham

Brian,
There are software programs out there that print out "sheet music" . Maybe , if you done some partnering with one of them , the lyric board dialogue box could have a choice of a blank box , like this one and a template box that's got one of them five line thingies for writing music in and putting time signatures on ans stuff and even G cleffs , C cleffs and A cleffs.
It might be to their benefit to set up such a template for the lyric board and maybe even the MP3 board in order to have exposure to such devoted writers of what we hope to be music , someday... Hopefully they wouldn't charge you a nickel and maybe , just maybe , they would cut us a break on the software in the likely event thay we get hooked on it and want it on our own computers , so we could work offline , and not hafta do all our work in a dialogue box.
That would be a real boon to the thirsty sponges that we are and improve our writing skills immensely.
Somebody , pinch me . I must be dreaming...
V/R Peter Larsen (novice lyricwriter and thirsty sponge)

Malenac,
you said...
"I challenge anyone to put a melody to most of the lyrics on the boards"

Well gee... I have done that.
probably 30..40...maybe 50 over the past 6 years (maybe more..I haven't really counted lately LOL)
If you go to my soundclick page..you will find close to 20 of them. a couple of those made the cut on my CD...and one of those, it appears will be recorded on someone else's CD. I think that means that the original "poem" was indeed a lyric.
I have my style limitations...as do others. So some lyrics I look at sing to me..and the melody comes easily. Others are easier for other composers. And when I've listened to the finished songs...I've found them to be "real songs"

MOST of the lyrics on the boards? well maybe not... Some lyricists are better than others. (for certain composers, I would add) and some lyricists on the boards are still honing their craft. to be sure.
But to write off the entire lyric board as a poetry forum.... frankly that sparks of naivete

Oddly enough.... when I came to the forums...I was looking to concentrate solely on writing lyrics...and let someone else write music for me. I felt like my music was in a rut. But I have mostly done it the other way around. I have found that some lyrics here have sent my music to places MY lyrics would not have taken it.

This new board!
Right down to the second ! I won't get a coke out of noone!
Pete

You Speak the truth Harriet.
Happened that way for me too.
Graham

Ha! It's amazing how easy it is for someone like Malenac to bait people on such an obvious attempt. The only thing easier would to be post that there is no God or that the War In Iraq is (fill in the blank). Don't you guys know baiting when you see it?

As for his assessment of adding the Lyric boards to build JPF, the truth is that the Lyric Boards, even with it's large number of posts, represents about 5% or less of the JPF membership since I estimate less than 1000 different people use them. The boards in general only represent less than 1/3 of the 41,000 members. The music awards certainly were a big impetus to build membership however. But you won't see most of those folks here. (Though we did have several winners among Board regulars this year). Only a couple thousand of the 41K JPF members regularly visit the boards.

Don't fall so easily and eagerly into a blatant trap folks. = )

Brian

I tried to make a link to the page from the Merriam Webster website but it wouldn't work when I clicked on it.

Main Entry: 2lyric
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French lyrique, from Latin lyricus, from Greek lyrikos, from lyra
1 a : suitable for singing to the lyre or for being set to music and sung b : of, relating to, or being drama set to music; especially : OPERATI

A lyric is a poem. Not all poems are meant to be sung. Lyric poetry is. Whether or not it has music composed for it already or not, it will still be a lyric if it is meant to be sung.

Howdi Malenac, and welcome ... Just as the boards were in the process of changing...I was..commenting on another of your threads...and will go back...and see if I can find it..and comment on it again, as it did not take....

There are several folks who frequent the JPF boards who look
at lyrics...and almost instantly...hear a melody. My Friend Harriet above....is one of them.....along with many other folks including myself..... So I believe your point is mute.

Are the lyrics in various stages?...Yes. And... Are there times.. when suggestions are made by the composers....who are collaborating with the lyricists?....Yes... BUT Are there also lyrics that have been posted on the board...that require minimal, if any, changes...to put music to? Yes...there have been.

I may be wrong but I don't believe...I've posted...a lyric...since...2002...that has not had a Melody going along with it in my mind.

Another example...of...looking at someone else's lyric...and putting a melody to it....is Imagination written by Bill Cooper, Lyrics Board III...( Lost) ... Other than to ask for a pick up word ( which wouldn't have been absolutely necessary...but was personal preference on my part)..It required no changes...But because Bill is a perfectionist...He kept refining the lyric.... No changes were needed meter wise.....to make a melody sing.

Taking this example a bit farther....Bobbie Gallup...who many of us look up to...as Mad'm Lyrics... ...then took this wee song in its worktape state.....and has it in the hands of a gentleman who runs the Imagination Library Reading Program for Dolly.

Is it possible...that you are more comfortable with a certain type of lyric....and haven't branched out from that style?..
That would be an explanation as to why you feel.....our lyrics are poetry. I'm thinking, Malenac, that you probably write super lyrics and music of a specific limited style....or maybe...
are not yet as comfortable at writing music for lyrics as
you may have once thought.

There are definitely Lyricists at JPF.

best to you this afternoon...:)
Kaley...

Songs For Adults:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=8404
Songs for Kids or Adults Who Never Want To Grow Old
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=6469
Songs Put To Animation:
http://www.flashfast.com/kids/
Andy & Friends CD:
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kwwg

Last words on the subject from me, in this reply - to Brian.
I know most members don't use the boards, but of those that do, most use the lyric boards - your own statistics show this - that was one of my points.
Also, there was more than an element of criticism in my commments, so like a mother hen you race to the rescue of your nest. I thought this group encouraged free comment and a variety of viewpoints, I now realize you only want non-challenging self-congratulation.
To accuse me of simply baiting insults me and my topic, but if the criterion for being a member of JPF is to be meek and mild, OK Daddy I apologise for my bad manners - it won't happen again.
Malenac

Well, as someone who only has 26 posts, you sure think highly of your knowledge around here. As the folks who have actually BEEN here for a long time and have posted and interacted for years and years already know, we don't halt anyone from disagreeing and we don't halt someone from saying something stupid. Ironically, I didn't attack your premise so much as I thought it was funny how easy it was for you to post something so absurdly insulting to the lyric writers here when you were probably smart enough to know your entire premise was pretty inaccurate. Perhaps you're not as smart as I gave you credit for, and if that was the case, I apologize for giving you too much credit. You admitted yourself that you wanted to see the response to your "outrageous" view. That's the same thing as saying you were baiting people and you were disappointed when less people than you hoped responded. (Actually, I was pretty impressed that most folks simply ignored your bait).

Your topic attempted to be outrageous by your own statement. It was your intent. Rather than hitting your intended target, it was a bit wide. But you caught a few comments around the fringes. If you really want a quality and sustained argument with the big dogs, you'll have to come up with a premise that's a lot more intelligent and valid though.

Here's one I use all the time with the Lyric crowd that always gets me shouted down: The music/melody is more important than the lyrics to determine if a song will become a hit. We've had that one rage on several times. But suggesting no one could write music to the lyrics posted on our site shows how crappy those you are familiar with must be at writing music/melodies.

But thanks for playing Malenac, you'll get better,

Brian

Oh Malenac, you are nowhere NEAR controversial yet! Been there did that.

I write lyrics, create songs, and I am a published poet. At the end of the month I should recieve word if I'm going in another book. There is definetely a difference between my lyrics and poems. Poems are longer for me-wordy. My lyrics better be concise and to the point quickly. I have already had poems that I would love to be a song-but it ain't going to happen. I disagree but respect your perception, they are two different animals. And, neither one is a simple greeting card either!

Wow, Brian, I would appreciate your metrics on the boards. I thought the lyrics group was the beat all end all. Where is the REALLY happenin' places?

I believe I made the baiting observation Brian.
Tis sometimes fun to go along with this stuff, and as I did go listen to the bloke, even though I had to scroll down quite a few pages to find him, given he gave no directions a la a clickable link to his soundclick site etc.
I learned a little more about where he is coming from in the doing, so it wsn't really a total waste of time.
And the less than a third being lyricist doesn't surprise me, given that is probably the proportion lyrics make up of the average song.
Graham

Baiting is about right... Either that or Mal has never bothered to find out the definition of a lyric. Makes you wonder why Macquarie and Oxford bother Mind you considering the first place a half bright person would look is in the dictionary... you gotta wonder why anyone would want to make themselves out to be that much of a w&nk3r?? Ah well the crosses us Aussies must bare... John Howard, Fred Nile, Pauline Hanson ... Mal

Cheers All

Whoa, I'm curious Graham, what exactly did you do? I don't remember? Interesting to get mentioned in such an inflamed thread. :-)

Personally, I think anything can be made into a song so long as you can get your mouth to make the words and melody happen. Will it always be a hit, probably not. I've learned that lyrics don't always have to rhyme. They don't always have to have the same meter. They just have to get the point across. Some writers do it better than others and that's always gonna be true.

Jody

here's the link to it Jody.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=7032&songID=4563278
It was just a sing along to the tune I was working on at the time, of what you wrote in a post debating what could and could not be called a lyric as i recall.
It was done on the fly and not easily understood I found out when listening while getting the link today, far removed from the time it was written and I could remember what was said.
As I agree with what you say here, the this isn't a lyric statement is like a red flag to a bull for me, and I often respond accordingly.
Have fun Jody.
Graham

To say that Bob Dylan is the only writer that can write many complex lyrics and music...is simply ignorant.

There are a huge number of amazing writers...yes WRITERS - on this site and elsewhere.

While I am a long time Dylan fan, I am also accutely aware of the immense talent that exists right here in JPF. Check out the lyrics of Bobbie Gallup, greydog ( Corky Bernard), sideman66....to name a few.


Here is one of the many definitions of "lyric" from the Columbia University Press:

lyric, in ancient Greece, a poem accompanied by a musical instrument, usually a lyre. Although the word is still often used to refer to the songlike quality in poetry, it is more generally used to refer to any short poem that expresses a personal emotion, be it a sonnet, ode, song, or elegy. In early Greek poetry a distinction was made between the choral song and the monody sung by an individual. The monody was developed by Sappho and Alcaeus in the 6th cent. B.C., the choral lyric by Pindar later. Latin lyrics were written in the 1st cent. B.C. by Catullus and Horace. In the Middle Ages the lyric form was common in Christian hymns, in folk songs, and in the songs of troubadours. In the Renaissance and later, lyric poetry achieved its most finished form in the sonnets of Petrarch, Shakespeare, Spencer, and Sidney and in the short poems of Ronsard, Ben Jonson, John Donne, Herrick, and Milton. The romantic poets emphasized the expression of personal emotion and wrote innumerable lyrics. Among the best are those of Robert Burns, Blake, Wordsworth, Shelley, Keats, Lamartine, Hugo, Goethe, Heine, and Leopardi. American lyric poets of the 19th cent. include Emerson, Whitman, Longfellow, Lanier, and Emily Dickinson. Among lyric poets of the 20th cent. are W. B. Yeats, A. E. Housman, Rainer Maria Rilke, Federico García Lorca, W. H. Auden, Stephen Spender, Edna St. Vincent Millay, Wallace Stevens, Elinor Wylie, Dylan Thomas, and Robert Lowell.
Bibliography

See J. M. Cohen, The Baroque Lyric (1963); C. D. Lewis, The Lyric Impulse (1965); J. Erskine, The Elizabethan Lyric (1967); P. Dronke, The Medieval Lyric (1968).


So....lyric, poems and music have always been intertwined.


Whether or not a poem or lyric can be effectively put to music is entirely subjective. For instance, the famous child poet, Matty Stepanik, who died at age 14 after publishing many books of his exquisite poetry ( Heartsongs) , didn't intend for his poetry to be put to music. The choir that I sing with, Angel City Chorale, premiered one of Matty's poems set to music in December 2006. The lyrics seemed perfect. You would have never known that these words were poems first.

Most accomplished lyricists and composers need lots of time to grow as artists. This site is an ideal place for many to practice the art of writing.

Emily

I'll drink to all of that Emily.
Graham

Thanks, Graham Gotta stand up for what's right!

Emily

Yep, what Emily said, <G> (Well, I knew "some' of those guys <G>)
(Well, didn't exactly "know" them. I'm old but ain't "that" old)
(You "do" have a way with words Emily, you oughta' write songs and stuff)
( and ain't this thread ever gonna' die?)
Well not if we keep posting on it <G>
Wy

Emily,

You are a wealth of musical history. But, knowing your background, I am not surprised. You stated OUR case (all lyricists) quite nicely. You honor me by including me in your reply.

I think I was the first person to reply to this thread. I made a very sincere and honest response. I think his responses over the life of this thread strongly suggest he was not as honest or as sincere in his statement.

Thanks for standing up for the rest of us so eloquently!

Alan

....just want to say that I was in such a hurry to post my reponse on this thread....that I neglected to mention many of the talented writers here. Ya'll know I love ya...even if I didn't mention your name

Emily

The reason I did not respond to this earlier was that, like Brian, I simply wrote this off as one person's attempt at baiting the rest of us because he was bored. I felt no compunction to honor his ludicrous statement with a response. His comment appeared to be a control issue on his part. "I am right and everyone else is wrong." Sure didn't put me in the mood to feel I needed to defend myself or my lyrics. LOL

Nope...I don't write time signatures or bars or any musical stuff...but do my "non-lyrical words" ever get put to music? Hmmmm...I guess you'd have to ask any of the 41 different composers I have worked with over the past years...and check out the hundreds of "songs" they have produced. LOL Amazingly, some of them actually required a word or two of massaging LOL...but several composers have said my words (at times) seem to sing themselves. Go figure. Perhaps Mal is right and all the rest of us are wrong.

Though I don't compose one note of my own music. I do very often get head tunes for my lyrics which enable me to frame a simple melody...just enough so I know the lyric CAN be sung and how the prosody MIGHT go. But the music that comes to a real composer is so much superior in most cases to the simple tunes I hear in my head, I know where my "gift" truly lies.

I am a published poet. I also know the difference between my "poetry" and my song lyrics. It certainly helped me understand the difference by studying "song forms"...which has enabled me to write in structures that facilitate various styles of music...such as blues, country, etc, where there are specific formats that lend themselves to those genres of music. I might suggest that Malenac educate himself a bit. Try reading some of the excellent books on writing lyrics like Sheila Davis' stuff. He might open his mind a bit through some exposure and understanding.

I can't feel bad that one individual is presumptious enough to state such a naive POV...every POV is welcome here. We sure do not have to all agree.

Not responding to this post is probably more a matter of not feeling as though the poster's comments were worthy of a response. Most of us who do post here have a limited amount of discretionary time. I generally have to pick and choose where I will spend that limited time...on something productive that might help someone...or on a negative issue such as this? Gee..where is the choice in that? Am I apathetic? I am too busy helping folks to be apathetic. Does this kind of post warrant my time...probably not...because others like Mike Dunbar, Brian, Graham, Harriet, Kaley and Emily have already said most of what I am going to say anyway...so am merely adding my thoughts to the pile.

Thanks Emily, for including Dawg and me on your list of good writers. I am honored to be there along with Alan and in the same company as Bob Dylan. There are a lot of outstanding writers here who need not feel apologetic in the least for what we do. After hearing several A&R reps and publishers tell musicians they might benefit from working with a strong lyricist...I no longer feel like a second class citizen. At least not here in Nashville where lyrics still matter.

Hugs to all...
Bobbie

AMEN, Bobbie Lyrics DO matter!

Emily

The Poster has a point, but so has Moker,

It is true that Elton and Bernie aside the best lyric writers
do prefer writing to finished music.

Another way is to write a lyric to a beat pattern

DUM da da DUM da da DUM DUM da--- Et-cetera

Or write a new lyric to a hit melody, and I am sure some here do that, so that and then someone writes a new melody .
Have you considered that Mr Malenac.

I would suggest you broaden your thinking a little.


As Moker states the Music can change as the song goes through re writes.

Their are a lot of lyrics posted that look more like poems.
because in some cases the writers take no notice or don't fully understand FORMAT.

Matt Stoneham.

I agree with Emily and Bobbie - lyrics DO matter!

But......

Some songs are designed not to tell a story but simply to create a mood or invoke an emotion. Often, the lyric for a song like this looks nonsensical when written but works within the context of the music.

It doesn't mean the lyric is bad - only that it cannot be separated from the music.

A lyric like this might get a bad response on a lyric forum but receive favorable responses if an MP3 is posted.

I am not a country afficianado but it strikes me that most country lyrics tell a story and therefore can be critiqued separately from the music.

One of the reasons I largely stopped participating on the lyric forums is that I was being critical of lyrics that later turned out to be quite good (in my opinion) when accompanied by music....good because they worked in the context of the music.

Now I think I'm starting to develop an understanding of what lyrics I can critique and which I cannot. It certainly helps when the poster states at the top which genre and tempo he/she has in mind.

Bottom line - I think useful information can be obtained from the lyric forums if the poster understands their strengths and limitations and provides as much info as possible about the song (in addition to the lyric). No substitute for a work tape though, if available....

I accept that many here might have the experience to critique (beyond the story telling song) lyrics in the absence of music. I do not - and I suspect many others do not as well.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't try though - at a site like this it is as worthwhile to develop critiquing skills as musical ones.

Scott

There is a man named Meyer that has came to the past two open mikes here in Tampa Bay.
Meyer is taking guitar lessons but;Meyer does his songs acapala and they are quite excellent.He does not play guitar well enough to compose anything.
Just how Meyer gets his music or where he gets his music from is beyond me but it is very good.
I think Meyer is one of those fortunate souls that can get what he hears in his head to come out of his mouth.
A very unique talent to be sure.
I hope to be seeing more of the gentleman in the future.

I am new to this board but would like to put my two cents worth in. I am a poet with a book coming out later this year. However an artist read my poetry and convinced me to have music put to it. The very first poems I made into songs where recently played on the Smokey Mountain Cowboy Church program and filtered to radio and internet. The homemade CD demo that I had with two songs on it sold and the songs are going to be recorded this year. I had a hugh response to my lyrics. I strongly believe that a good poem makes a great lyric and so do a lot of artists I know. I write mostly gospel but have been asked to write a couple country lyrics which I am doing now . I have one song on my web that was first published as a poem if you care to hear it go to www.myspace.com/teresa3696 its only recorded with guitar but the words is what makes a song first. Teresa

Like every one else here malenac is entitled to his/her opinion. But it remains that what makes a lyric a lyric (just like what makes a song a song and what makes a songwriter a songwriter) already has a world wide accepted definition.

which is basically "Words written to be sung"

They don't have to have music or melody, or be good or make sense, they don't have to meter or even be spelt and punctuated correctly. They can be anything the writer chooses just so long as the intent of the writer is that they be sung.

No amount of whinging is gunna change it. Though if there is enough intertnational aggrement and pressure maybe lobying will work.

Cheers