JPF Home Page Forums Musician Gear and Techniques Recording Studio and Gear Forum Making a recording HOT!!!!!!!!!!

AS IN, LOUD!!!
I've had a few demos done, and the studios get them as loud as they can.....BUT...why are most CD'S louder !!! (on the major or good indie labels) Do the best master's have secret equipment to "punch" up the volume in the mastering process ??. I know mastering can cost thousands of $$$....BUT HEY....why can't the "joe-blow" studios figure this stuff out ??

I think they just compress the hell out of them so that they can raise the overall volume without clipping.

People are divided on whether this is a good thing or not

Scott

There's a whole process to it. It begins with getting a high quality signal in to the machine. That includes using great mic pre's and mics. Then comes the mixing, knowing how to eq. There is compression involved, there is limiting involved. Once it's all mixed then comes the mastering.

While mastering engineers can pump up the volume, they can only do so much. It's really a combination of things to get that result. It's generally not secret gear, but them really knowing how to use the gear they have.

In answer to your specific question about your demos. There's the key word in your question, 'demo'. The studios you're working at may not have the know-how to get those levels. They might not have the great mic pre's. They might not have great A/D converters. As to why "joe-blow" studios can't figure it out, they may not be willing to learn. It's not as hard as one might think. Or they might not have the ears. And ears are something you have or develop.

Jody

p.s. - great mastering does not have to cost thousands.

It's been a while since I have mentioned the Fletcher-Munson curves as sound relates to the human ear. For a more complete explanation just Google it and read the information.

I have noticed at times when checking recording levels that certain passages will sound louder even tho the levels are correct while other passages will peak the meter but sound lower in volume. The ear is not a linear device as the tests have shown. Some balance has to be maintained in a recording so you don't overload parts of a recording and distortion happens. If you want to raise the level a bit when copying it can be done up to the red line.

One other thing is the playback equipment you are using. It may have some limits in reproducing the sound as well as it was recorded.

In sound forge there's a tool called "Normalize" It comes pre-set for music at 16, but I know bands are setting it at 6. 10 is pushing it. The good thing is, when you're working with a sound file, you can test it and not destroy your original file.

If you analyze the "hot" tunes - there is actual, true 'clipping' - parts of the sound clipped off. But, it can't be heard by the human ear anyway. Mostly I see this in punk files, but the past few years it's happening in pop, etc - to give the listener an immediate "punch".

For example, they just took out one of their regular CDs that they've been listening to for 10 years. This 'punch' makes the song sound brighter. The volume is simply higher on the cut.

Scott said it - we're all divided on the usefulness. If your song sounds great loud, then I really don't see why not. If it sounds distorted, etc, then DON'T do it. As Jody implied, it's what equipment you have available that will allow you to punch it.

You can re-master your demos if it's something you really want to do.

Normalize is not a thing I'd recommend doing to any file. It is certainly one of the worst ways to attempt to make a recording sound louder. It's definitely not how top notch mixing or mastering engineers do it.

Jody

So what exactly is normalizing for?
Personally I use it to bring all tracks up to the same level so mixing is more uniform... in other words, I like all tracks at their "peak" before mixing down to the rough master. Once mixed, I move on to the mastering phase.
Is this not a good idea?
Why?

Main thing is that normalizing does not treat all material the same. All it does is raise the file level to 0 for whatever is the highest peak in that file. Thus if you have a spike where it's only a db away from zero, then it will only raise the volume 1 db. If you have something really low level and normalize it could bring it up like 25 db and of course all the noise right along with it. I wouldn't recommend using normalize, but that's just me - I don't use it because there are better tools for good recording.

Jody

Thanks for your insight on this, Jody. This kind of sharing of valuable experiences is what I joined JPF for.

run it thru your guitar amps and distortion boxes and what not...Itll get loud, REAL loud

It cant possibly sound worse than whats on the radio right now

Volume at all costs

I remember when my clients paid a mastering engineer and got back something so much better than I gave them in the first place. Now they get back mashticated, white noise approximations of lifeless bassless, mono garbage

and have to pay for it

Maybe they need to find a new mastering engineer. My buddy George at www.utopiaparkwaymusic.com is capable of keeping the life in stereo. Oh, and he's reasonably priced.

Jody

Id like to be proven wrong, but I dont believe its possible to have a good sounding album, at the volume levels required by the knuckledraggers making these decisions right now

I think we crossed and burnt that bridge around 1995, certainly no later than 2000

Of course if its not for pop40, or for kids too challenged to use the actual volume knob on their stereo, then its a different story

I vote for John Mayer's stuff. It's pretty damn loud and sounds amazing.

Jody

I've decided...
Whenever I DO finish my solo album,
It's going to display the words:
A DYNAMIC RECORDING - TURN IT UP!
I just refuse to let it go out smashed.

Hi,
This is an interesting discussion. One example of compression on a vocal is the Beatles' "Lady Madonna". While it sounds neat on this song, this much compression wouldn't be desireable on most songs. At least, I think this is compression; maybe someone will chime in and let me know what this really is.

In my recent recordings, my tendency is to use little/no effects including compression. My aim is to produce a nice, clear recording where the vocals are easily heard. The backing instrumentations' overall volume decreases when the vocal is present. I'm also anal about keeping my overall volume just below the clipping/distortion level. I'd rather have my recordings nice and loud and oh so slightly distorted than have potential fans have to turn up the volume on their audio systems when playing my tunes after playing other folks' tunes.

Having digital recording software enables greater control = equivalent playback levels as commercially recorded music. This has been my experience. My humble opinion,

Steve Vasil

Example.....listen to current a Neil Young CD.....then put on a BRMC, Strokes,Hives.......these are hot volumes.......get me to the gods that can master that for me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....What solar-system do they live in ??????


(thank-you)

Hey Madferit
I like and play loud music (we lost a guitarist through tinitus) just a thought. There comes a point when any music no matter how good becomes so loud AND PIERCING that it hurts your eardrums and is not a pleasure to listen to. Also there comes a point in recording levels regardless of what gizmos are used when music will be distorted and full of unwanted noise. You can always turn the volume control up on the CD PLAYER if the recording level is not loud enough. Watch out for the neighbours though.

Its just to compare.....each CD set at the same volume....and one is recorded "hot"...and one is not.
its all seems to pop out at you !!
Most Producers started doing this ....not too long ago....so when "their" band came on on the air waves or player....they were LOUDER.....it got more attention.
....but done right......WOW....sounds cool !!!

..........hey how do I get Stars under my name......like you guys ????????
I'm a star ....even if I don't post as much!!!!!!

Here is the key to producing a quality sounding track and mixdown of all tracks.

Take individual tracks to your master mixing editor. Then you will need your basic effects rack and a denoiser and dehisser. Do the denoising and dehissing first. Check the track then for quality. DO NOT COMPRESS TILL LAST! Now that you have the "live" sound out, equalize the sound of the track to suit your taste. When done with that, see if it sounds like you want it. If not, add a reverb/echo and adjust it to how YOU like it. The key to good sound quality is the feeling it gives YOU. If it sounds good at this point, take it back to your track building area and listen to it with your accompaniments. If it still doesnt sound right, go back to your master and add VST's. VST = Virtual Sound Technology FX. Personally I use Clone Ensemble, Big Tick Delay, and Kjaerhus Audio vst's (which by the way are free) The sounds you get from these things are like heaven! Once you played with these youll start to hear what your looking for. Remember though, dont over do it with too much and saturate your track. While your doing these adjustments, check your levels and make sure they do not Peak at more than +3 on your main mixing board. Otherwise it will sound like crap. The levels will be bouncing all over the place and crackling on playback.

Now that you've done this. Go to the next track and do the same. If you are looping, you will see that most loops are already set between -6 and +3 anyway. Play only 2 tracks at a time so that you can blend the sounds. If you maximize everything, you will never get a good mix. The compliments of the accompaniments must be precise for proper playback.

NOW is the time for compression. The main thing is not to allow your threshold or attack and release to bounce up and down. Meaning for instance, a synthesizer waveform that rises and recedes in volume. Each time it does this, if it is not leveled, it will be come louder and louder as the instrument stays in that form. Adjust the ratio till it is level. THEN set your volume. Same with any other instrument. Yes, I know it seems like alot of work, but if your gonna be a recording musician, it is better that you know these things. It will help with your ear for mixing trust me. Never.....ever.....normalize!! Sorry to my friend who said so, but this is just not a good quality result. Now when you go back to your track building section, add tracks one by and do the same thing. Once your levels are set and you are happy with it, make another copy so you have it to adjust in case your mixdown does not turn out how you like it. Mixdown all tracks and playback. You can still adjust the song at this time with volume and master effects. If your still not happy.....toss it and bring up the broken down track file and fix what needs to be fixed. As you can see......this can go on forever, but you get the point.
If you would like to get an idea of what kind mixing im talking about, go to my site at http://www.myspace.com/twdmusic. If you look on the right side below my pictures and links, you will see the tools I use. If all of what i've just explained cannot be done on what you are using now, i'd say get out there and buy something that will allow you to have these types of controls! You will notice that no 2 types of Recording Software are the same. Sound wise. So youll hafta just mix and match what works for you. But this should give you a good start. At least I hope so!

Also remember to have good recording monitors. If you use a mic from a karaoke machine, your not gonna be even close, and so on. Same with instruments. Same with speaker monitors.

Happy mixing and recording!!

Rock Hard Rock Forever!!

Tim


P.S. Remember, everything now is in 5.1 and 7.1 surround. So adjust accordingly. 3D Audio Effects are especially handy. Thats a whole nother animal. Same Process though.

Great info, Tim. The Kjearhus VST's are amazingly good for free ware.

A good free VST compressor for someone who is doing home demos and wants to learn how to use a compressor is the GVST GComp or MultiComp. They're free and they have a wave display that shows what the compression is doing to the signal...great learning tool, not bad compressors either.

If you have a finished mix that is not loud enough, it is likely being held back by s few peaks that prevent the rest of the song from being loud (without those peaks clipping). So one way around that is to run a hard limiter on the mix and cut down the peaks by some amount, and then amplify the whole song by the same amount (3dB?).

C

Hi Tim Tried your myspace link and could not get page. Also search for twdmusic failed to find your page. Could you please check and repost correct link. JIM

Ya gotta take the period off the end of the link.....wooooops

http://www.myspace.com/twdmusic

or just google twdmusic to get all info

Thanks for the request

RHRF...Tim