JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum America's Watershed Election.

OK so you don't like the choices.
Can we still do a write in?

Mark

No offense but I think you're living in a dream world. One caucus does not decide what the national turnout will be I predict the lowest ever voter turnout in history this year. The reason? I agree with Bill the media has already decided who will win. So who the heck cares to vote in this system? I'll vote, but only for an independent and trust me it won't be throwing my vote away.
Derek

Hey Bill

If so I'll vote for Bill Robinson. I like what he stands for

by all the comments of "not voting for any of these losers" should tell us something about the system itself. i said it before and i say it again, it's broken and needs to be overhauled. why is it only the rich and "connected" can make a run at the office... or any office for that matter?
could it be SATAN?... just kiddin', but you know, special interest groups and financiers with hidden agendas contribute in many ways to the mouthpiece of their choice... all we get is the warm fuzzy that our "vote" is gonna count? b.s.
tom jefferson advocated a little revolution now and again when the government got too out of control... i'm just sayin'!
hey, tony soprano for president... at least they'd have checks and balances! fahgittaboutit!
rock on,
r.

Derek
I am too old, too tired, and too far right. They'd shoot me in the first week.
But I appreciate the thought....wait a minute, maybe you know they would shoot me in the first week... Hmmmmm

Well, wait until the Democratic party goes into the convention without a candidate locked in and the "Super" delegates vote in someone who didn't get the most delegates. The place is gonna burn down. And it should. Totally unelected Super Delegates making the decision? The Democrats are wringing their hands over the fact that Hillary has them in her back pocket already (some are already on the record saying no matter how many delegates Obama has or what percentage of the vote, they are STILL voting for Clinton.. yikes!).

The saddest thing is that everyone is buzzing about who might be chosen as Vice President. I think it indicates that we hope that the best person for the job will at least be chosen as a running mate. I've heard 2 very interesting possibilities. That McCain might choose Joe Lieberman (something I have been saying for a long time which would please us in the middle/independent/moderate movement a lot), for a split ticket. And that Obama might choose Colin Powell for another split ticket. Now THAT might actually be a race I'd be interested in watching.

Brian

I don't know Brian.
I don't really think Vice Presidents help win elections but they sure can lose one.

I agree it is going to be interesting.

I wonder if Ron Paul would come back out as an independent? Can he do that?

Yes, Ron Paul could run as an independent, but then he'd lose his seat in the next election which I doubt he wants to lose since he's not going to win the presidency. He'll likely stay snug in his rep seat. Bloomburg has talked about running as has Nader. But with McCain getting the Republican nod.. and Hilary likely to get the Demo nod, there's no where for him (Bloomburg) to squeeze in the middle of those two (or perhaps he'll like that and all three can equally split the moderate vote.. who knows..). If Obama gets it, he might give it a shot.

The only thing certain is that no one has any idea who will actually win the presidency... McCain versus either is a crapshoot for both sides. The larger turn out bodes in favor of either democrat though.

Brian

Hey Bill

Naw I wouldn't let em shoot you. I'd be your personal secret service agent. With a bazooka over one shouder and a grenade launcher over the other. That and a couple dozen German Shephards just to be sure. We'd never travel by air and our parade vehicle would be a tank. Am I missing something here?
Derek

Bump

It looks like Obama is catching up to Hillary. This is getting real interesting, LOL
It's going to come down to a Republicrat and a democrat. It's just a matter of which one.
And if McCain picks Leiberman for his running mate it will be a Demopublican ticket Vs a Democrat ticket.
Goodbye Republican oarty, LOL

An interseting statistic
So far the Primary votes have been lopsided.
Democrats have received 19.9 Million votes
Republicans have received 12.1 Million votes.

This makes the Republicans a little nervous I think

The only way for McCain to stem the tide of all that extra dem voting is for Hillary to win. If she does, she'll let all the air out of the interest and her negative background will turn the tide. If Obama gets the nod, he's going to win big I think.

This is indeed going to be one of the greatest Presidential elections in a long time.

I don't think Hillary can beat McCain. McCain might turn off some republicans because of his liberal stance on some issues but he is still a republican and I can't see republicans voting for Hillary. And I can see some Democrats, that don't like Hillary, voting for McCain because of his liberal views.

But if it is Obama vs. McCain he might have a harder time. Obama doesn't have any bad baggage to overcome. But they will hammer away at his voting record and lack of experience. He refused to vote on a lot of controversial issues, just voted present so he couldn't be pigionholed on those issues. Other votes he was very far left.
McCain might still be able to pull some Dems and indies away from the democrats because of his liberal views.

The war might be the deciding factor. If they can convince the people that Obama wants to quit and admit defeat people might not be too happy about that. Getting us out of it is one thing but making us look weak is another.

The only really bad part is, no matter which liberal wins, America loses.

Its sad, but as of right now, I have no clue who Im voting for.

I've always been a pretty solid Republican but I did vote Indie once.
This time I have no idea what I will do.
I hate NOT to vote but given the choices I just don't know what I will do.

I do know I cannot let the Terrorist win but what do we do to attain victory or at least a peaceful resolution.

Our domestic problems are another consideration. What to do?

I'd think with the way the internet has revolutionized communication in our country, getting out a write in vote for Romney wouldn't be so hard... I'd have second thoughts about doing this if I thought it would take away from any candidate I could mostly agree with, but there aren't any.

I'd hate to see the blood that's been shed over there have been for nothing. If we don't stay the course that will happen.

To me, the main domestic problem is ILLEGAL immigration. The main thing everyone who is behind amnesty keep forgetting, is the first word in that problem. Since when do we reward criminals. Especially millions of criminals. There a tons of people who would love to come to our country who would be willing to do the same work. They would probably be grateful enough to learn our language, and respect our traditions. I know a lot of legal Immigrants. The ones who waited in line, then put in the time and effort to do it the right way. The conditions where a lot of them are from. are no better, and sometimes worse than those below our border. What makes them special? Only the free, and easy access to our country across a border that should have been fixed long ago. If you want to see what has caused a lot of our high health care costs, look to the un, or under insured. I will give you a few guesses as to who a lot of them are.

Well,
It is now beginning to be a bit more clear of who the Candidates will be. If you want to expand the Federal Government it is the Democrat. Maybe somewhat less if you choose the Republician.

Info I have read says that if Hillary is the Democrat she is less likely to be elected this time, or maybe ever. The Candidates I liked best are now out of the race. Of course they could be re-instated if the primarys don't select a winner before.

The Democrat I could live with isn't even running and I can't support Barack or Hillary.

So at this time it leaves McCain of which will probably be elected. He is weak on illigal immagration but will probably "see the light" as the American people are not going to accept anything that looks like amnasty.

While the issue in Iraq may be getting better it probably may be quite a while before we finally depart from there. While the issues from the second world war have been long settled we still have bases in Japan, not sure if we are still in Germany or we have moved to Cutar.

The money isuues of Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and other things will wax and wane until who knows.

Best to prepare for your own future and not depend on the Government for it.

I went to my local Dem caucus last Saturday. Since there was no Dem frontrunner following Super Tuesday, all of sudden our primaries became REALLY important.

It was CRAZY. Hundreds of people turned out in my tiny little precinct alone. Both Clinton and Obama came to visit last week. They had to turn away 3000 people from Obama's speech at Key Arena due to overcrowding! A friend of mine described his caucus in North Seattle as a "madhouse."

People are fired up.

Scott,

Do you get a sense that if Hillary pulls it out and wins that it might disenfranchise all those fired up for Obama? (Especially if it gets ugly and nasty and they use the super delegates to steal it away at the convention?). I agree that conventional wisdom is that with the increased turn out, the Democrats will be nearly impossible to beat. No one seems excited about McCain on the right.. and the folks on the left are showing up 2 to 1. I am still open to considering Obama.. but I still want some solid info on what he's done to demonstrate he has the skills and talent to run the country and I'd like some specific answers on how he's going to pay for all of it and how he plans to deal with terrorism once he's pulled out all our troops as he keeps insisting he will do immediately.

I am not worried about his social policies themselves, but more how much he's going to raise our already ridiculous taxes to cover it? Did he map that out for the folks in Washington?

Brian

Well, I worry about the social policies as well as the increased taxes to pay them. Here's why:

I worry about the poor, the sick, the old, those who are unable to care for themselves. During the depression, the government put in programs to help them, to end poverty, to fix health care, to provide for the elderly. That was sixty years ago. We haven't ended poverty, fixed health care, or provided adequately for the elderly. Democratic Republics with diverse populations aren't good at social issues, countries like Sweden, where almost everybody is Swedish, are better suited. Countries like Korea, where the government rules as if it were a monarchy are better able, though not effective. It's just too expensive to pay an immense bureaucracy to do things the local church, the moose lodge and the local union should be doing. Those folks know their neighbors better and can help more efficiently.

Many of those problems, before the depression, were handled by the churches and by private institutions. Now those churches and institutions think it's no longer their job to do that, they think now that it's the government's job, so they get involved in politics to keep the government doing their old jobs. They're feeding the monster.

Younger folks, who don't even realize that before the 1930's the government stayed out of social issues, think that's the way our country was designed...it's not. That was tacked on during the depression to stop the growing idea of communism here. A better solution would have been to study the problem and place a FEW banking rules and procedures to help the banking industry solve it's own problems.

But, giving folks free money buys votes.

So now we have an absolutely staggering debt, and no relief in sight. Very little talk in the campaign is devoted to it. Don't count on the Demogogs or the Republibrats to fix it.

Brian:

You did not miss a thing... except you should not count Mike Huckabee out. I know his chances are slim but he was a great Governor, a caring Minister and is intelligent, witty and wise.
He's not in the race to become McCain's VP. On top of that, he's a dedicated Bass Player in a band called "Capitol Offense."

As if a quirk of fate is not involved here... he also comes from that small town in middle America where Slick Willie was also born. Don't count Mike "out" until the Fat Lady sings.

All my best,

Dave

Dave,

The same could be said for Ron Paul... but I am trying to live in the real world. Short of McCain dropping out, he has no chance because he'd have to nearly shut McCain out, and not all the states are winner take all, making it impossible short of McCain dropping out, to win. It does indicate, however, that Huckabee stuck around long enough to force Romney out. I think Romney might have won had he stayed in and Huckabee dropped out. But Romney had zero chance of beating Hillary or Obama so the Republicans have their best hope with McCain, though even that is a long shot it appears. The turn out is just too huge on the Democratic side. And Obama may win without doing more than being a charismatic speech giver. That's a little scary for liberals and conservatives alike. I'm still waiting for anyone to step up and fill in the blanks.

I was watching news coverage on 4 networks: CNN, Fox News, MSNBC and ABC and in every case they did stories about how Obama seems to stand for nothing and never gives specifics but that people don't seem to care because he's so charismatic. That's shocking. We've seen a lot of really scary and horrible people with a lot of charisma do terrible things in the world. I think it's time for him to be specific across the board with his plans and where he stands.

Brian

Hey Brian:

You may be right but I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Mike Huckabee. Polls don't impress me very much. All along, the media has pushed it's agenda and completely ignored Ron Paul as well as Huckabee. Lately, Huckabee has soared in the most recent voting... and I think this indicates that the American Voting Public (Republicans, anyway) are sick and tired of having little or no say in who gets to run.

Dave

Verrry interresting. Since my favorite candidate (who was a Democrat, even though I'm a Republican) dropped out way early, I just might write in Bill Robinson myself. I like the way he thinks, I think we need a musician in the white House, and I'd have *access*. It'd be the first time I ever had personal access to the President. That's definitely worth my vote.

Joe

Joe
Your lack of good judgement is starting to worry me. I have NEVER been accused of thinking before.

In my opinion, it's a no brainer.

Who would China, Russia, Iran, and the rest who would like to see us fall have us vote for ?

Who would you as an american citizen want calling the shots if our national security was severely threatened ? Or if WWIII breaks out ?

I'll take national security over appeasement any day. And I predict a majority of the voters will as well.

I wish it were Fred Thompson, but.....

John McCain will be the next president.

Or.....

Clint Eastwood for prez.

Robert DiNero for vice prez.

Jack Nicholson for secretary of state.

Mel Gibson for secretary of defense.

Steven Segal head of homeland security.

Bobby Knight for press secretary.

BRING IT ON !!!!!

Tony:

Ever think about running? I like your choices.


Dave

People were fired up for Hillary as well as McCain here. My point was that I've never seen such civic engagement. The WA primaries both Rep and Dem are usually predictable snoozers.

I think if Hillary wins the nomination, yeah, a lot of Obama supporters will definitely feel disenfranchised. But one thing I noticed is people are paying attention to who these superdelegates are, and who is voting for what. Some of them are elected officials. It'll be interesting to see how their '08 decisions affect their re-elections.

Dorothy is trapped by the wicked witch. The flying monkeys are taking over. With the common scarecrow, tinman, and cowardly lion save the day???

Stay tuned...

It's interesting to see how people are spinning Obama's ripping off his speech from another politician. Especially the "Yes We Can" slogan he's used so often. I've always been distrustful of most politicians who never actually speak for themselves. Almost all of them use speech writers for nearly every word they say. But lifting someone elses speech to that level is pretty weak no matter who you support. And Clinton's camp has wasted no time pointing it all out all over the news today.

Brian

Well,
Isn't it interesting. Who will be slected for V.P. Our own Governor, Sonny Perdue has been mentioned here for the Republician V.P. We had a County Commissioner run for President on the Republician side but did not get many votes.

What is amazing is the pettiness of this race. But it does give you a better picture of the canidates. If I could only bottle all the wind Obama generates I could probably power a small city.

The word Change is big in this election. Change to what? On the democrat side I think that means more taxes to fix all the social problems. Damn, the democrats have had 45 years to "fix" all the problems. If it hasn't been fixed by now wha happen? Why is it not fixed but much worse.

If Hillary gets the Dem nomination who will be brave enough to take the V.P. spot? At least the news people have a story to keep the suspense going. I don't think I can even get a good song out of all this.

Here's an interesting exercise

McCain has the republican nomination sewn up, and for the democrats, it's either Obama or Clinton....that much is settled.

Now...

Give me the three main reasons to vote McCain\Republican
Give me the three main reasons not to vote McCain\Republican

Give me the three main reasons to vote Obama\Democrat
Give me the three main reasons not to vote Obama\Democrat

Give me the three main reasons to vote Clinton\Democrat
Give me the three main reasons not to vote Clinton\Democrat

Personally, I recognize Obama is galvanizing "new voters" so that the turnout is going to be significanly higher than in past years ....a good thing....but will it be sufficient to counter the evangelical, conservative vote of "the south" and "middle america" who stand against democratic ideals that support things like abortion, withdrawal from Iraq, same sex marriage, added government regulation etc...or is this going to be an "anti Bush" backlash??? But I am not "in the debate"...simply a bystander....so give me an idea of what the people with an informed vote are thinking...

And please keep it to the "managable threes". And no on board debate or challenges please. Lets first bring out the thoughts before challenging the ideas.

Interesting exercise, John. I'll play. I can only give 3 and 2 at this point though.

McCain For:

(1) Character and straight shooting...

(2) Proximity to the center - I like that he supports stem cell research and, with repect to those with other views, I really believe his approach to illegal immigration was the only *practical* solution.

(3) National Security focus

McCain Against:

(1) He's no spring chicken. The choice of running mate is critical simply because of this. And if he chooses a running mate I don't like, well.....

(2) He would likely choose at least one supreme court justice and it would make me nervous to see the court drift further to the right...


Obama For:

(1) He is an optimist. If it weren't for the President's responsibility to the armed forces, he would definitely get my vote - because, other than the importance of that role, I think the President's job is largely to inspire. I think Joe may have said this first but I agree...

(2) His philosophy on health care is closer to what I support than is Hillary's.

(3) He seems to emphasize our commonality rather than our differences.

Obama Against:

(1) Other than the campaign, he seems untested....

(2) Though I have watched the debates and do a lot of reading, his treatment of the issues still seems largely philosophical and lacking in details. For this reason, you can also see that my "for" statements for him are somewhat soft. Hopefully these details will emerge between now and November.


Clinton For:

(1) I think she's smart as hell. I like leaders to be smart.

(2) Her votes and views on education are more in line with my views than any other candidate. This has particular interest to me as I work in this field.

(3) I see her husband as a plus. Say what you will about his mistakes in office (which, in my opinion, pale compared to those of the current President), we had the greatest economy in years under him.


Clinton Against:

(1) Her health care plan scares me.

(2) She appears to be unwilling to compromise. I have seen 7 years of this in a leader and it scares me. I don't think people should compromise to get elected or appease constituents but there are times when it is necessary to achieve a practical solution to a problem.

This will be a difficult choice for me.......

Scott

Things are not always as they seem. It's interesting that there is usually a sentiment that Republicans generally are better at managing wars than Democrats. I suppose modern Republicans are viewed as Hawks (strong) and Democrats are viewed as Doves (weak).

So, I figured I'd count up the wars begun by Democrats vs. those begun by Republicans...skipping other parties (please correct my mistakes). Here's what I came up with:

Democrats:

James K. Polk, Mexican American War.

Jefferson Davis, Civil War. Definitely not a US president, but president of the Confederacy, and a conservative Southern Democrat. The Confederacy did fire the first shot at Fort Sumter...so this is a technical one and probably doesn't count.

Woodrow Wilson, WWI.

Franklin D. Roosevelt, WWII.

Harry S. Truman, Korean War.

John F. Kennedy: Vietnam.

Bill Clinton: Attacked Yugoslavia without a UN Security Council resolution, Invaded Haiti to restore the democratically elected president, invaded Somalia. Bombed al Quaeda bases in Afghanistan with cruise missiles in an attempt to kill bin Laden.

Republicans:

Abraham Lincoln, Civil War. (A technical stalemate to balance out Jefferson Davis...)

Wm. McKinley, Spanish-American War.

Ronald Reagan, Grenada, covert action in support of the Contras in Nicaragua. Armed and supported the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan. Air strikes in Libya.

George Bush Sr.: Operation Desert Storm.

George W. Bush, Afghanistan & Iraq.

Democrats: 7
Republicans: 5

Did I miss anything?

John,

I am curious.. do you take similar interest in other nations elections as you do the US? It seems most Canadians I've spoken with (probably a couple dozen at least in the last 6 months) have very strong opinions and interest in the US election. Canada has certainly shown that it can do whatever it wants in context of cooperating or not cooperating with the US on foreign affairs and military stuff... so I am curious what the elevated interest level is. I bet 90% of the Americans couldn't tell you who the Canadian Prime Minister is (or even knew your government had a Prime Minister versus a President). (It's Stephen Harper for those who don't know.. and don't fell bad, I had to look it up to be sure myself). The only other Canadian Prime Ministers I can name at Trudeau, Kim Campbell (who I see often on US News Talk Shows) and Mulroney. But of course 25% of the US Citizens can't name our own Vice President right now. So how up on US politics do you guys stay?

Brian

The mouse that sleeps next to the elephant is always keen on knowing what the elephant is going to do.

Most people in my circle are aware of what goes on in the US and many have strong opinions on what might\should happen. As you point out, many Americans have no idea what happens outside the US and moreover, couldn't care less.

Perhaps this is the fault of your media, perhaps it is a fault of the American people...qui sais? Our newspapers are full of what happens in the world....and follow political events in the US very closely..

And perhaps it is BECAUSE we are so well informed that we walk our own path.

It's come down to a matter of which brand of socialism we are going to get, McCainism, Clintonism or Obamaism. They all believe in the redistribution of wealth. Read: the middle class (me and you)get's raped again. They all believe in The North American Union (Canada, US and Mexico)Read: open borders and one monetary unit(the Amero)bye bye constitution. I know McCain is an American hero and supposedly Republican but anyone that get's into bed with Teddy Kennedy has gone over to the dark side in my book. Circle the wagons girls and boys because America's darkest days are about to descend.
Ron Paul was our only hope.

Unc

I reckon "darkest days" could be an understatement Steve..From a world stage perspective this is going to be the most important Presidential election since Kennedy,when the hammer&sickle were the big threat.Now to a certain extent that threat has been muted,we have a much more sinister and determined threat hanging over the free world,and it aint gonna go away overnight,and because of that scenario,the newly elected President will not be a "new broom" sweeping clean,simply, because the actions of previous administrations make that utterly impossible,notwithstanding any Presidential decision, must pass thru the gatekeepers of the C.I.A. ..but that..is another story.

Eight years ago I only wanted to prevent the very darkness I am paying for today.

Well,
Even if we get the worst of the three (Or Four) still standing I don't think it is the end. We still have elections every two years and the will of the people can sway a lot of things.

No, I don't think the dark days are in the cards just yet. Cloudy days from time to time yes but I know we will do just fine whatever happens.

True the Teddy Kennedys of the world are beginning to wear thin but it seems those types will be there until they die. It seems just when one of them goes away another takes his place.

However hope abounds. A democrat rep in New Jersy is introducing legislation to make it a lot tougher on illegal immigrants in New Jersey.

Does Jimmy Carter get any credit for sending forces to rescue the hostages in Iran?

Granted, it didn't work.....

Interesting analysis, Lyle.

Scott

Since I don't have any other forum to offer this vent I am putting it here.

The Clinton/Obama debate is on TV right now. I was really interested in how it would go.

I just do not know what to say.
I think one of these two will be President and if they are I just do not know how our country will survive.

The fact the there are two people posing the questions and one of them can barely speak English is the final straw for me. That they would put a Latino speaking Spanish to question our next President is an insult to the sovereignty of our nation.
This is the United States of America not MEXICO.

As I watch things fall apart economically for a lot of my middle class friends and relatives, as I feel the pinch of the worst times I can recall in the restaurant industry, as I notice the 30-40% increase in general grocery bills in the course of one year, when I pay $1600 every quarter for health insurance, yet can't really pay the deductible anyway, and the rates just went up, and if I get sick, they can drop me...on and on and on and on...I often find myself wondering why so many people believe we're doomed if we change our present course.

Well don't fret about it too much Mark.
It's gonna change all right.
Tonight's debate has convinced me of that.

Sorry Derek, I missed your post.

Okay, how about a friendly wager. If the 2008 presidential election consists of more voters than ever before, I win. If not, you win. The loser writes a song that praises and flatters the winner.

Whaddya say?

-mk

What are your concerns, exactly?

I missed the debate; I'll probably look it up on YouTube. I heard about Hillary drawing boos for the "Xerox" comment. That was a bush-league move.

Pun intended

Two things being echoed up here Mark.....

The US middle class is being gutted (which will cause huge issues if that is true....the middle class carries the country, brings stability, makes the economy work...)

and

The upcoming predidential election turnout is going to be massive


So in my books, you're going to have to give odds.

You write a lyric, Derek writes a lymarick

I am guessing we've already had the largest turnout ever for a Democratic primary. I'm not as sure, but wouldn't be surprised if the Republican primary was one of the largest. My bet is on this election being one of, if not the, largest turnouts for a presidential election. I could be wrong, if you don't believe that, ask my wife.

And John, the middle class looks good to me, I wish I was in it.

I don't think our big problem will be the current disproportion of wealth (never understood that term? It's not like wealth is a "zero sum" proposition. Most wealth comes from work, the smarter you work, the more money you make. I'd rather see folks look at corporations vs. individuals than rich vs. poor, there's a lot less manipulation that way...e.g. some folks get rich and powerful by appealing to the poor vs. the rich, so it's in their best interest to keep people poor).

I think our problem will be the government spending folks' money at too great a rate. Heck, they spent up all our money (money they took from us), then they borrowed more from China and who knows who else, then they give the bill for that borrowed money to us, and our children, and our children's children.

That madness gotta stop.

Maybe it will, we could have an economic collapse from it (why do you think Russia is prodding the Serbian, Kosovar problem? They'd love to see us spend ourselves into the toilet trying to solve it...a taste of how Reagan caused the U.S.S.R. to spend itself right out of existence.)

But, I'm not "gloom and doom." We might make it through it, probably even a good chance we will. If we do, it will be entrepeneurs and decent business folk who make it happen, not giant corporations and politicos who want to take our money and spend it to buy votes.