JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum America's Watershed Election.

Ray, you have proved my point precisely. All the way back to JFK's Daddy, who, as an industrialist, beat the stockmarket crash, survived the depression, and put his son in the White House. Governments are controlled, or at least influenced by the wealthy.

On socialism, any government which does not provide for the weakest in it's society is dommed to failure. Australia has universal health care, and universal education, a small payment for those who are disenfranchised and marginilised, as do most civilised European nations. This happens with a balanced budget, and over the last 8 yrs, one which is in surplus.

Oh, what a pinkie I am to stand for socially just policies.

I hope someone there will actually stand up and be counted, and actually try to get it right, not just for the sake of the US, but also for the global partners in which it is entwined.

cheers, niteshift

The LA Times just released a poll that said that McCain beats both Hilary Clinton AND Barak Obama. It's closer with Obama.. 46 to 44%. The missing folks? They'll decide the race.. they're independents and as one it's nice to know we have the power in this election. They are also now setting up Clinton and Obama up for running together. Folks thought there was no way Clinton would take VP... but those winds are changing apparently. I think Obama is only hurt with Clinton on the ticket. I think Clinton with Obama as VP is a stronger ticket for the Dems. With Clinton as VP, the Republicans will still be able to bring out all the negative baggage she carrie and then hit Obama on experience anyway. Obama is better off without her on the ticket.

Ray and John do not blame the poor for your high taxes. Yes there are wasters and spongers and it is up to good housekeeping policies to stop this waste of money and rersources but do not be fooled by the smokescreen.
BLAME THE GREEDY RICH FOR DEMANDING TOO MUCH SLICE OF THE CAKE. It is a popular myth, even believd in the UK that unless private business run the show the world will come crashing down.

Niteshift,
Joe Kennedy Sr. wasn't an industrialist. At one time before the second world war he was Ambassador to Great Britian. He was aginst the war but his sons Joe and John didn't agree with him and Joined up. Joe Sr. made his fortune as a bootlegger. It may be posted on the Net but I can't be sure.

Uh, how are your Taxes down there?

P.S. My father also made it thru the depression with change to spare. So what?

Yes, Big Jim, some people are greedy. Not all of them are rich.
While it isn't publised very much, many rich people give away a lot of money.

I watched a story on Fox news about a young college grad that wnated to see if he could make it without revealing that he was educated. With 25 dollars he set out to try it. He did very well indeed. Some people set themselves to fail. And they also usually succeed, to fail, that is.

All my life I have been hearing how the Rich people don't pay taxes and how the rich people get rich off the suffering of poor people Blah blah blah.
It's Bullshit. BULLSHIT!!!!
Most rich people get to be rich because they work hard and make good life choices.

I have run my own business so I know a little about it. Now I ain't rich, matter of fact I live pretty much paycheck to paycheck, But when I did have my own business I worked 12 to 16 hours a day. Sure, I made more money than my employees. But when they got off work at 4:30 they got to go sit in the local Gin mill and have a cold one, or go fishing on the weekend. I got to keep working, doing the books, setting up appointments, going out on bids. Weekends included.

One day I heard one of my workers complaining about how I must be getting rich off him because he saw how much money I made on a small job he went on.
What he did not know was that on top of the $15.00 per hour I paid him I had to match his Soc. Sec withholding, I paid about 28% Worker's comp insurance, Paid for the truck he was driving, all the fuel, the insurance, the rent on our shop, etc. etc. etc.
I had to charge about $40.00 per hour just to break even.
My business failed. You want to know why? Taxes. I could not pay the taxes. The IRS shut me down.
So I get real tired of people blaming it on the Rich. By rich they usually mean the BOSS, or the owner of the business.

I been there and believe me it is a lot harder than you think.

Bill I agree with you, strange as it may seem. However in the big picture I am not talking about small business and one man bands. I am talking about multi nationals and monopolies who rape and pillage at the expense of everyone. They fix prices, demand excessive profits, hold governments to ransom and create worldwide supply and demand. When they sneeze everybody feels it a far cry from what you are talking about. To say that they are controlled, act honestly, fairly and are loyal to any employees, country or anything else except greed is bullshit.
I am a socialist not a commie. I agree with profit and people working hard to earn a living. Like you I have worked hard all my life as has my wife and both our families. I do not agree with getting ripped off by tax dodgers, greedy shareholders, workshy freeloaders, illegal immigrants or anybody else.
However the unequal distribution of wealth is the real big problem. That puts the freeloaders share into insignificance.
I believe that all major services and institutions should be public owned. They should be accountable and run efficiently like all other business and the profits used to provide services and infrastructure. At present in my country only the profitable parts have been sold off or should I say given away to be run privately. This has meant huge profits to shareholders whilst the hard to run costly non profit services which should have been offset by these profits are paid for from our taxes.
With full re-nationalisation IE put back into public ownership the badly run public and social services and health care system could be made more profitable, efficient and the savings used to provide better services to the end user.

Gotta agree with you Jim. Bill, it's not small business I'm talking about here, it's the generational super rich who flout the system, so you and I have to bear the tax burden.

Example ; Australias richest man, at the time, Kery Packer was dragged before a Royal Commission and asked why he paid NO tax.
His reply as that he plays by the rules, and by the current rules, he didn't have to.

Example 2 ; Rupert Murdoch, of Fox also pays no or little tax to the US government. That is because his 38 billion dollar fortune is held in......wait for it......Bermuda.

Real fair tax system huh......

cheers, niteshift

Any system that doesn't understand that people are selfish is doomed to failure. To force a group to support unproductive people will doom the species.

The continuation of the human species depends on people being selfish. It's all down to me and mine. I take care of me and mine you take care of you and yours and those that can't take care of themselves fall by the wayside. How big your group of mine is depends on how much resources you have.

To look at it different means that you are anti-human. and you are dooming the species to extinction.

Biology trumps ALL political systems.

Government sucks at social issues. Name one social program that's worked over the long haul. Social Security? It's broke. Medicaid? If it's working, then why do we need to fix the health care system? But they've been in place decades. I thought back then government was going to fix those problems? I thought we'd be a paradise...like Cuba.

The only governments that can pull off socialism are the governments of small, less diverse countries that still embrace private ownership and capitalism. Once a government starts handing out free money, interest groups get laws made that put more of that money in their hands. It's human nature.

Let the big folks who don't pay taxes (the churches, unions, non-profit groups, clubs and organizations) stand up to the plate and start doing the job of caring for those who need it. Give big tax breaks to folks who fund such groups, and close the tax loopholes. Those are the groups who can do an effective job, they won't be as encumbered by bureaucrats and partisan nepotism ("Heck of a job, Brownie"). For God's sake, for the sake of the unfortunate folk who need it, please, don't let government do it...they'll screw it up.


All the Best,
Mike

Blaming the rich...so easy. Yeah, they're all leeches on the system....all you need to do is point to:

Bill Gates putting his fortune into a foundation to benefit humanity
Warren Buffet adding his to Gates' money
The Carnegie Foundation
The Melon Foundation
The Rockefeller Foundation
Countless University and Hospital endowments

and so many many more to see how true that is.

The rich should be drawn, quartered, crucified, tarred, feathered, and run out of town on a rail if they're not willing to share.

Atlas still shrugs....

BTW, read "The Millionaire Next Door" to look at a definitive study of who has the money.

They're ordinary hard working business owners who do not spend but save, with wives who work. They are frugal, practical, and create jobs.

The current crises in the US is primarily due to easy mortgage money pushed onto those who could not afford to load up on debt....so blame the mortgage brokers, financial instituti0ons, and Wall Street, and mostly those who signed on the dotted line.

In the end, EVERYTHING is about people making choices. But when things turn out bad, blame everyone but yourself because that is so much easier.

Sorry for my rant, but Obama and Clinton now blaming NAFTA for the ills of the US is entirely moronic, shortsighted, and ultimately destructive.

And the "blame the rich" just triggered the outburst.

You want to improve your life? Forget about looking outward for a saviour.

1) constantly improve your capabilities and invest in yourself
2) work hard
3) save at least 10 to 20% of what you earn.
4) spend your money wisely

And no excuses. It's hard work to get out from under a crushing debt load, and you'll have to sacrifice...but do it. Forego immediate material things and think long term.


edited to add this stolen from a website describing that book

PORTRAIT Of A MILLIONAIRE
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/stanley-millionaire.html


Who is the prototypical American millionaire? What would he tell you about himself?(*)

* I am a fifty-seven-year-old male, married with three children. About 70 percent of us earn 80 percent or more of our household's income.

* About one in five of us is retired. About two-thirds of us who are working are self-employed. Interestingly, self-employed people make up less than 20 percent of the workers in America but account for two-thirds of the millionaires. Also, three out of four of us who are self-employed consider ourselves to be entrepreneurs. Most of the others are self-employed professionals, such as doctors and accountants.

* Many of the types of businesses we are in could be classified as dullnormal. We are welding contractors, auctioneers, rice farmers, owners of mobile-home parks, pest controllers, coin and stamp dealers, and paving contractors.

* About half of our wives do not work outside the home. The number-one occupation for those wives who do work is teacher.

* Our household's total annual realized (taxable) income is $131,000 (median, or 50th percentile), while our average income is $247,000. Note that those of us who have incomes in the $500,000 to $999,999 category (8 percent) and the $1 million or more category (5 percent) skew the average upward.

* We have an average household net worth of $3.7 million. Of course, some of our cohorts have accumulated much more. Nearly 6 percent have a net worth of over $10 million. Again, these people skew our average upward. The typical (median, or 50th percentile) millionaire household has a net worth of $1.6 million.

* On average, our total annual realized income is less than 7 percent of our wealth. In other words, we live on less than 7 percent of our wealth.

* Most of us (97 percent) are homeowners. We live in homes currently valued at an average of $320,000. About half of us have occupied the same home for more than twenty years. Thus, we have enjoyed significant increases in the value of our homes.

* Most of us have never felt at a disadvantage because we did not receive any inheritance. About 80 percent of us are first-generation affluent.

* We live well below our means. We wear inexpensive suits and drive American-made cars. Only a minority of us drive the current-model-year automobile. Only a minority ever lease our motor vehicles.

* Most of our wives are planners and meticulous budgeters. In fact, only 18 percent of us disagreed with the statement "Charity begins at home." Most of us will tell you that our wives are a lot more conservative with money than we are.

* We have a "go-to-hell fund." In other words, we have accumulated enough wealth to live without working for ten or more years. Thus, those of us with a net worth of $1.6 million could live comfortably for more than twelve years. Actually, we could live longer than that, since we save at least 15 percent of our earned income.

* We have more than six and one-half times the level of wealth of our nonmillionaire neighbors, but, in our neighborhood, these nonmillionaires outnumber us better than three to one. Could it be that they have chosen to trade wealth for acquiring high-status material possessions?

* As a group, we are fairly well educated. Only about one in five are not college graduates. Many of us hold advanced degrees. Eighteen percent have master's degrees, 8 percent law degrees, 6 percent medical degrees, and 6 percent Ph.D.s.

* Only 17 percent of us or our spouses ever attended a private elementary or private high school. But 55 percent of our children are currently attending or have attended private schools.

* As a group, we believe that education is extremely important for ourselves, our children, and our grandchildren. We spend heavily for the educations of our offspring.

* About two-thirds of us work between forty-five and fifty-five hours per week.

* We are fastidious investors. On average, we invest nearly 20 percent of our household realized income each year. Most of us invest at least 15 percent. Seventy-nine percent of us have at least one account with a brokerage company. But we make our own investment decisions.

* We hold nearly 20 percent of our household's wealth in transaction securities such as publicly traded stocks and mutual funds. But we rarely sell our equity investments. We hold even more in our pension plans. On average, 21 percent of our household's wealth is in our private businesses.

* As a group, we feel that our daughters are financially handicapped in comparison to our sons. Men seem to make much more money even within the same occupational categories. That is why most of us would not hesitate to share some of our wealth with our daughters. Our sons, and men in general, have the deck of economic cards stacked in their favor. They should not need subsidies from their parents.

* What would be the ideal occupations for our sons and daughters? There are about 3.5 millionaire households like ours. Our numbers are growing much faster than the general population. Our kids should consider providing affluent people with some valuable service. Overall, our most trusted financial advisors are our accountants. Our attorneys are also very important. So we recommend accounting and law to our children. Tax advisors and estate-planning experts will be in big demand over the next fifteen years.

* I am a tightwad. That's one of the main reasons I completed a long questionnaire for a crispy $1 bill. Why else would I spend two or three hours being personally interviewed by these authors? They paid me $100, $200, or $250. Oh, they made me another offer--to donate in my name the money I earned for my interview to my favorite charity. But I told them, "I am my favorite charity."

I have to laugh. Just because some billionaires with obscene amounts of money through out a few handouts we should all be thankful. BULLSHIT

Of course you're right Big Jim.

16 billion dollars given out by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation since 1994 is a pittance.

We shouldn't be thankful. We should demand more. After all, we're entitled to it.

What percentage of that is income tax deductable?

Ask me about Canada's tax system, and I'm an expert, but I don't know exactly what Gates got as a deduction.

But then, what does that matter?

It is existing wealth that was given away. And directing it at a specific cause such as improving world health seems to me to be a better use than throwing into the general tax pool

A small handout 100% tax deductable to appease is hardly giving away all your money.
It is like saying that a serious criminal is OK and does not deserve jail cause he was kind to his mother or bought a charity badge.
Contrary to your beliefs most people are not greedy. Most folk willingly pay taxes and give to the needy. Who knows when you or your family might become needy.
The system does not work TRUE because it is exploited and badly run. That does not make the system bad. It is up to us and the politicians we elect to make it better and make it work. Rejecting the system is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

"Contrary to your beliefs most people are not greedy. Most folk willingly pay taxes and give to the needy. Who knows when you or your family might become needy.

Presumably that is not directed at me, because I have expressed no opinion on that subject whatsoever. But if you're talking about "the rich not paying taxes", your own House Of Lords ruled years ago that everyone is entitled to arrange their affairs so as to minimize their taxes. Those with more money have more opportunity to do so, and if they're smart, they take advantage of that. Wealth in the Bahamas? Fine. But then they cannot be residents of "their" country...and must live for most of the year abroad....except for the USA, they tax based on citizenship, not residence. Would you have me pay tax in Britain, even though I don't live there???? If Packer and Murdoch (mentioned above) are not residents of Australia, should they pay taxes there? Ask that same committee if any of Packer's or Murdoch's business in Australia pay or paid taxes there...I'm sure they do. Read Microsoft financial statements and see how much taxes they pay to the US, Washington, and Seattle governments...and to all states and cities where they operate.


Key points to glean from what I said.

1) do not blame the rich for society's ills
2) the best way to improve your life is to take control of it.

period



"A small handout 100% tax deductable to appease is hardly giving away all your money. It is like saying that a serious criminal is OK and does not deserve jail cause he was kind to his mother or bought a charity badge."


Atlas just stopped shrugging in utter amazement at that statement in all that implies. If that's not individual and societal greed for his money, what is?? And how in any context can you compare Gates to a serious criminal?????

But you're in luck if you feel all his money should be given away. Gates and Buffet have both said that most of their wealth will be transferred to his charitable foundation and very little will make it to their children.

The main problem with most socialist programs is that they encourage laziness. A lot of people, if they don't have to work very hard to get more than the basic neccesities of life, won't. They will let those people who want the better things in life go to school longer, fight to get better grades and better jobs, work harder, have less children because they feel guilty about having other people pay for what theirs need, and contribute significant amounts of their pay to support the lazy ones. Any time one class of people has to contribute money they worked for, to pay the bills of some who just plain don't want to work hard, you have a system that is someday doomed to fail. I am not talking about the handicapped, the elderly, or those who need temporary help to get back on their feet; I'm talking about the chronically lazy. Welfare in this country was designed to be temporary, and only as a help to get people back on their feet. Over time it has become a way of life for whole communities. I have no problem helping out those truly in need, through no fault of their own. I would just like to be able to see that my tax dollar isn't spent of the lazy.

And the rich and big business aren't the main cause of our woes. It is the laws that let some of them get away with paying less of a percentage of their incomes than the middle class workers. The only way we can fix that is to totally revamp our tax system. It isn't going to help to increase the social programs for the poor if the main source of the money for those programs continues to be the middle class. The rich and big business will continue to do what they have done for years. They will take advantage of every loophole available to them. We also need to close those loopholes that let the lazy get away from living on the rest of us.

I do agree with most of what John says
And some of what Jim says.



But Bill Gates..
He made 20 BILLION in 6 MONTHS. That's SIX MONTHS.
so as much as I applaud his donating the 16 billion I think he did it because he couldn't find anywhere else to put it, LOL.

Odd that H should fault NAFTA. Didn't her husband sign it into law?

Has Atlas been checked for kyphosis?

But guys, he didn't have to donate a dime!!!!!!!!!!

Yes Richard and she supported NAFTA until she wanted to be President I believe.

"1) do not blame the rich for society's ills
2) the best way to improve your life is to take control of it."

Here is my answer to your two main points which are non starters as far as I am concerned.
1) The rich must be blamed for society's ills. There is only so much cake to go round and if somebody has more than their fair share then somebody else less fortunate suffers POVERTY.
2) So what happens if you are disadvantaged or handicapped or poor or uneducated or whatever and cannot take control of your life. TOUGH according to your logic.

Shame on you with an attitude like that!

Sorry but your right wing propoganda and myths and misconceptions are the reasons we have got into the mess we are all in.

Re tax evation it is evil. The only fair way of collecting tax is to tax people in the country where they make the money from not where they reside or have a nationality.

I have to disagree with you on this, Mike. I think social security has worked brilliantly over the long haul. Have seen too many examples to think otherwise....

Yeah, it will run out of money unless changes are made - but this is primarily because we're living longer.

In a more general sense, I disagree with the notion that the private sector is necessarily better at doing things things than government. I am an employee of a state government and my wife is an employee of the federal government. Both of us have yet to see a single example where outsourcing of work to the private sector has made things better. It might save some on the bottom line but any savings are more than compensated for by the poor quality of service that is received.

I'm no fan of big government - but I think sometimes people rail against government without considering it is filled with people much like them - just trying to do a good job. It amazes me when people gripe about a stamp costing 42 cents. I say to them, "For 42 cents you can send a letter from New York to LA and be fairly certain it will get there within a few days. How can you possibly see this as anything other than miraculous?"

OK, rant is *off* now

Scott

Hey John,

I absolutely agree with the points that you have made, and as for Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, these are two men in our society, who through their own personal philanthrophy, WILL make a true difference to the world as a global community.

Neither of these men are controling agents, they have made their fortune independantly, and therefor give it back, freely to society.

Alred Nobel did the same, because of the guilt that he felt bringing terror to a passive age.

The sceintists of the Manhatten Project also denounced it.

What you are dealing with here, are the in-betweens who crave power and glory.

Bring it on......let the selfish and the foolish die by their own sword. I certainly won't be watching them crumble upon their own ignorance.

cheers, niteshift

Far too much time spent on this, but here goes Jim

Your quote
"tax evation (sic) it is evil. The only fair way of collecting tax is to tax people in the country where they make the money from not where they reside or have a nationality."

Yes, tax evasion is evil, immoral and illegal. And when caught, tax evaders are subject to fines and imprisonment. Just ask any one of the people who have recently been exposed for stowing funds in Liechtenstein and not reporting their income whether or not they are sleeping at night. Your Inland Revenue are gunning for them.

Planning to pay less tax via legal means is a right enshrined into common law by your own House of Lords.


Your point
1) The rich must be blamed for society's ills. There is only so much cake to go round and if somebody has more than their fair share then somebody else less fortunate suffers POVERTY.

You accuse me of "right wing propaganda", then throw this at me????????????????????????????????????????


Your quote
2) So what happens if you are disadvantaged or handicapped or poor or uneducated or whatever and cannot take control of your life. TOUGH according to your logic.

"My logic" obviously does not extend to the lame, the crippled, the sick, etc. why would you infer that by me saying.....

You want to improve your life? Forget about looking outward for a saviour.

1) constantly improve your capabilities and invest in yourself
2) work hard
3) save at least 10 to 20% of what you earn.
4) spend your money wisely

And no excuses. It's hard work to get out from under a crushing debt load, and you'll have to sacrifice...but do it. Forego immediate material things and think long term.

..that a practical approach to life such as this should be scrapped, or is worthless, because people who cannot, by reasons of infirmary etc, do so??



And btw, go talk to Mick Jagger and the boys, and all of Britain's musicians, artist etc. Tell them they should pay personal income taxes in Bangladesh because people there buy their music.

And btw, go talk to Mick Jagger and the boys, and all of Britain's musicians, artist etc. Tell them they should pay income taxes in Bangladesh because people there buy their music.

I already have. But they are just like a lot of other people greedy, selfish, ignorant and uncaring.
At the end of the day there is no argument that can justify people living in extreme poverty and starving to death whilst others have more money than they can possibly spend.
I am quite lucky I have worked hard and have a comfortable lifestyle. Done all the things you suggest to achieve it.
But some people have to feed themselves and even 100% of their earnings won't stretch to that.

That has been the cry of the socialist, and communist countries for years. What really ends up happening is the have nots, who ran the revolution end up as the haves, and find out they like it. You just end up with the same divisions of wealth, but to different people... Ask the poor in Russia, China, Cuba etc. if they are still poor.

You are right John. Isn't it a pity. However the socialist theory works if administered properly it is just the practice that doesn't. With capitalism neither the theory or practice works.

"socialist theory works if administered properly"

a great mind once observed that a small practical plan that works is worth ten grand ideals that don't.....please provide examples of where socialism has been properly administered........oh wait, you admit there are none when you say "in practice it doesn't"


And the theory of socialism is superior to the theory of capitalism???? Puhleeze, socialist theory starts with the supremacy of the state and the collective.....and that the only rights the individual has is accorded the individual by the state and the collective....and the only reason an individual exists is to be a resource for the state.....

You would have loved in in Ancient Rome, Mussulini's Fascist Italy, living with Hitler's National Socialism, and in all communist countries.


"With capitalism neither the theory or practice works."

An entirely unsupported statement. The greatest advances in all fields of endeavor have come from countries with free economies. Note there is no such thing as "pure capitalism", never was, well perhaps rarely is the better choice of words. Capitalism has always been subject to more or less regulation and state intervention.

Jim,
You are so funny. If we took all the money in the U.S from everyone and distributed it equally to all the people, in less than 10 years the rich people would again be rich and the poor people would again be poor.

Wasn't it Kruschev that said he would "Bury" us, here in the U.S. Well it didn't eaxctly work out that way, did it?
In the Soviet System everything was dicitated by the state. When it was time to pick the vegetables they were picked, ready or not. When he visited the U.S. and saw the supermarkets he couldn't believe what he saw. And after he saw several of them he thought we were using the same product in several places to fool him. Here we had plenty of food in the stores. In the Soviet System people waited in line at the stores and many times were told that is all there is today. They had socalisim and we had free enterprise. Socalisim didn't exactly BURY Captialisim now, did it?

Ous system isn't perfect but it beats the hell out of anything else by a wide margin. You don't see riots in the streets because of Captialisim do you? That's because most people are more than satisfied with their lot in life here. True some complain but no one pays them much attention. The system works, it's just that simple.

Ray and John,

"Jim,
You are so funny. If we took all the money in the U.S from everyone and distributed it equally to all the people, in less than 10 years the rich people would again be rich and the poor people would again be poor."

That is a silly thing to say cause it will never happen and such speculation is only a matter of opinion. Just more patronising propaganda.
Re the Krushov remark I have worked for a few capitalist companies whose decisions would make the Russian look like the F.T.S.E. top 100 companies. So this kind of arguing proves nothing.

But Woh Woh Woh. I repeat I am not a communist I'm am a socialist there is a big difference. It is like a capitalist being called a fascist.
I can quote hundreds of examples of workers cooperatives and community owned business that is successful and competitive.
Cuba was mentioned as an example of communism at its worst not working. Well excuse me but ask any Cuban if he would prefer the old capitalist tyrant to Castro even with his problems.
I can quote horrendous right wing examples of countries inefficiency just the same. Proves nothing

You might like to know if it was not for socialists and the union movement we would still be sending kids up chimneys, have no formal education system, still have slavery, work for a pittance with no minimum wage, have no health service no retirement and certainly no health and safety regulations.
Ray and John you are the funny ones. You actually are naive enough to believe what you say.
Socialism can work if given a fair chance. Capitalism only works for the rich to the cost of everyone else.

It's kind of funny to see the Australians, Scots and Canadians arguing over the US Elections isn't it? = )

Brian

Big Jim
You always give me a chuckle.

You cannot really believe that. How many Cubans do you know? I have known a few. They escaped Castro on a boat. My mother's best friend was married to a Cuban.

Call it what you like, say it how you will, but The US 0f A is still the most powerful, most successful, country in the world.

Still the country everyone calls when they get in trouble.
We might be in a bit of a pickle right now but we survived a lot of wars, a lot of assassinations, The great depression, The dust bowl years, Tricky Dick and Slick Willie, and a lot of other crooked politicians.
Bill Gates started with nothing but a pocket protector and a good idea and look at him now.

We were here yesterday and we will be here tomorrow.

Whether you believe it or not most Americans still enjoy a quality of life far superior to most of the rest of the world. Most folks I know are doing just fine.
We just like to whine a lot.

It would be easier to gauge Social Security's success had Bush not gutted it to pay parents $300 per child in tax breaks. Twice.

Bill,
Batista, well I would spell it with a R and D on the end was one of the most hated leaders in modern history second next to Hitler. I did not say that conditions were anything other than bad in Cuba I said that it was infinitely preferable to capitalism under Batista. Castro had fundamental flaws on certain issues and rejected any compromises or any form of free enterprise. Had he been a bit more liberal then things would have been vastly different.
America has its fair share of poverty and problems all is not rosy. Things could and should be better. The same applies with the UK.

Brian, this has strayed so far from the US elections...we're at the fundamental levels of political and economic theory here


I'd love to get back to the questions I originally posed

Copied from my posting of way back when, and note the last line....man did that ever get respected

Now...

Give me the three main reasons to vote McCain\Republican
Give me the three main reasons not to vote McCain\Republican

Give me the three main reasons to vote Obama\Democrat
Give me the three main reasons not to vote Obama\Democrat

Give me the three main reasons to vote Clinton\Democrat
Give me the three main reasons not to vote Clinton\Democrat


Personally, I recognize Obama is galvanizing "new voters" so that the turnout is going to be significanly higher than in past years ....a good thing....but will it be sufficient to counter the evangelical, conservative vote of "the south" and "middle america" who stand against democratic ideals that support things like abortion, withdrawal from Iraq, same sex marriage, added government regulation etc...or is this going to be an "anti Bush" backlash??? But I am not "in the debate"...simply a bystander....so give me an idea of what the people with an informed vote are thinking...

And please keep it to the "managable threes". And no on board debate or challenges please. Lets first bring out the thoughts before challenging the ideas.


Truce Big Jim?

Reasons to not vote Obama
He is a liberal
He is very far left of liberal
He is a democrat

Reasons to not vote Clinton
She is a liberal
She is Bill Clinton's wife
She is a democrat

Reasons to not vote McCain
He is a liberal that thinks he is a conservative
He favors Amnesty for illegal Aliens
He is a republican

Now can you say "Nader"?

Richard,
A history lesson. It was Lyndon Johnson that decided to dig into the Social Security Fund to pay for social programs. Today we have a 9 trillion dollar, and growing, national debt. Can't blame that even on Slick Willie.

If you want to expand the Government, (and debt) Hillary and or Obama is your candidate.
If you want to try to reduce the size of the Government, McCain is your candidate.

Nothing is going to get done quickly. We have been 45 years getting into this mess and it may take 45 more to get out of it.

You can bet that nothing will get done about the debt until the wheels come off and the country goes into another depression.

I have asked this question before but it never got a response

If the war in Iraq has cost an estimated 700 to 800 Billion how did we accrue a 9 Trillion dollar debt?

Anyone have any idea?

As far as Social Security goes If I am not misinformed it is still in the black. But we keep borrowing from it.

And Big Jim

The Cubans might not have like Batista but that certainly does not mean they love Castro.

For all it's faults and haven't we all got them, us over here included..we are very lucky to be living where we are...I was over in the States in the early 90's..i drove from Niagra Falls all the way to Nashville,and i had the most enjoyable trip and holiday,then drove back to Cleveland to stay with friends...I played a few bars,and i was offered a job in a big Irish/American bar ..BUT didn't take up the offer...sometimes i wonder mybe i should have!..i found the Americans very friendly indeed,tho to be honest they have a different sense of humour from us..of course that wouldn't be hard...even the English don't share our humour!.and thay are just over the border...Tho i must admit in my travels thru all the states i encountered,i saw both sides of the coin..extreme poverty in some of the Southern States,and wealth and prosperity in others...What i found a little disturbing to be truthfully honest,is how you can be driving thru a seemingly wealthy suburb,then within a few hundred metres,encounter a "ghetto",and immediately "smell" the menace,then a few hundred metres further on,back into suburbia..found that strange...and these area's did seem to me as sort of no-go-areas...and me being a tourist and Scottish to boot.i stopped for Gas in a suburb of Kentucky off the beaten track.i went in to the station to pay for the Gas..The coloured attendant said and i quote"we don't get many white guys filling up in here"..i said why is that? in my Scottish Accent..he just laughed and said "oh i thought you must be a foreign guy or something"..then i guessed,the Southern States must have their own agenda...but that aside America is a great country.and i find these upcoming presidential elections fascinating to watch from the outside....

Good one Michael....

Brian, yep isn't it funny you got a bunch of foreigners commenting on your election. That's because the outcome of this election directly effects my family and how much disposable income I have. America has been a great ally and a great friend for a very long time. When one sees, from a non-critical distance what is happening curently, I can only shake my head in disbelief.

You boys, Ray and Bill, are confusing socialism with communism.

If you want a sussessfull model, I give you Scandanavia. A fair and just social model, the highest standard of living in the world, with a balanced budget and social equity.

cheers, niteshift

Then it isn't going to work in the long haul. It was a noble thing to do during the depression, but they should have started "weaning" folks from it a long time ago. Before the population ebbs and flows caused a shortfall, and before they started raiding it for other projects, robbing Peter to pay Paul, all for votes. Instead, the Social Security crash may cause real problems. Government trying to cure social problems.

I have nothing against folks who work for the government. My wife has worked for the State of Tennessee for twenty years. I've been employed by the State of Tennessee, the City of Nashville, and the Federal Government. The government does a lot of things right, social engineering is not one of them.

Also, like you, I am not a fan of big government, however I am not railing without considering that it's filled with people like you and I. Of course it is. I'm railing with much consideration. I can send a letter across the country for the price of a stamp, but I can upload a song on the internet for free and have it played around the world to thousands of people, unless the Government starts slapping taxes and regulations on it. Regulations to control our lives and taxes to fund poorly run social programs.

All the Best,
Mike

Maybe we should have defined terms, Mike

Even if they don't modify it, Social Security will probably end up lasting almost 100 years. In my opinion, that's a long haul.

As far as the internet goes, I agree - I think it is at least as miraculous as the postal service. But keep in mind where it came from....

Scott

We sure do talk a lot. Of course, not one opinion has been changed throughout this thread, has it? No matter how many exclamation points.

Show of hands?

...anyone?

Nope.

But it's good to rant and learn what others firmly believe.

The US government may not be all that good at social programs like, say, healthcare...but if I ever go broke and get prostrate cancer...please, God, don't let them send me to the Catholic church to get fixed.

Scott, Al Gore?

Mark,

Hand's up, my opinion's changed, It was my opinion that someone might agree with me and change their opinion....they didn't.

Scott, Social Security started in 1935, when my mother was 25 years old. To me, two generations is not a "long haul" I doubt my kids will get it. I doubt it will last until 2035, not with the federal debt at $9 trillion and climbing. Maybe if they did get the social security "safe box" Al wanted it might have had a chance, but he was too busy inventing the internet to get it pushed through, I guess.

What is it with you guys that you can't provide social security with a balanced budget......

The rest of the civilised world does, so what's wrong with the system......

cheers, niteshift