JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum America's Watershed Election.

The problem with our system is twofold. The Democrats, and the Republicans.

Nothing personal. Just business.

In earlier days I was entirely committed to the two party system.

One on Friday, one on Saturday.

Hey. I listened to your stuff. I like it.

Here's something interesting. In 2006, the Federal government spent 58% of its money on social programs.

"In 2006, the federal government spent 58% of its finances on housing and community services, welfare and social services, recreation and culture, health, education, retirement benefits, disability benefits and unemployment benefits. Yet, the father of the Constitution and the primary author of the Declaration of Independence considered such expenditures to be outside the bounds of federal power."

http://justfacts.com/socialspending.basics.asp

So, as Dr. Phil might say, how's that working out for us?

Out of love and compassion, imagine how much better that one quarter of that money would have done for people if it were not filtered through a centralized, bureaucratic system? I think about Crazy Eddie, one of my best friends, dying in a V.A. hospital that we had to fight to get him in, and four years later still not getting the benefits he was due. He'd have gotten more action from a local V.F.W if one quarter of 1,500 BILLION dollars spent on social programs in 2006 was in local, compassionate, personal hands rather than filtering through the Washington money machine ("Heck of a job, Brownie.")

I'm not talking about farming the job out to private "for profit" businesses. I'd like to see it start with local oversight grant commissions, mandated to be operated in open scrutiny, to hand gov grants to non-profits as a way to "prime" them for the job. Grants with iron-clad timetables...a finite amount with a definite end...all doled out per capita.

Then, maybe use the public airwaves, we own them, the radio stations and tv stations don't own them, they lease them from us. Give some mandated free radio, tv ad time to the very biggest corporate donors. We own the air, how about 10% of the commercial time? One tenth of the Superbowl ads going free to the big underwriters of the local social private non-profits. Money these corporations and/or individuals have already written off their taxes! What does it cost us? It costs us the airwaves that we already own free and clear. What do the tv and radio stations get for the airtime? Tax breaks, that we pay for by not having to spend 1,500 BILLION dollars in a year for social programs.

And if elected, I promise every songwriter to get a guaranteed release with a major artist. You get to keep your publishing. What do I get out of this? King of the World for life. That and a nice Martin guitar.

Hey Mark excuse my ignorance...but what is the tie-up between prostrate cancer and the catholic church?...i reckon it does'nt matter what denomination you are..what is for you...won't go past you...as the old saying goes....cheers..Terry...

Is that cancer lying down?

No, cancer lying down is Federalist cancer. Pro-state cancer. Pro-strate is a George Strait fan.

You guys are a riot....

I have nothing against Socialism or Communism. It is none of my business how other countries run their system.

What I do dislike is my Country being in debt because we spend so damn much money supporting lazy good for nothing folks that won't work. And don't try to tell me that we don't because I have relatives that sit on their ass and collect a check, get food stamps, and free health care.

You want Social Security disability...no problem...we have lawyers that specialize in it.

The other issue is the money we send out in Foreign aid that almost NEVER gets paid back. We give Trillions out to other countries and when we get in trouble we get NADA.

We build prisons to hold criminals that should be executed.
We build prisons to hold Illegal Aliens who commit crimes in this country. It costs us Billions per year. I say deport them or shoot them.
I can't remember the exact amount but I recall reading how much it Costs Los Angeles to provide Medical care for the illegal aliens in was in the BILLIONS and that was just Los Angeles.

Part of the reason the USA in in such trouble now is our Generosity and our Arrogance that we can tell other countries how they should live.

We need to solve the problem of OIL dependence then tell the oil rich countries to fend for themselves.
If they want to stay at constant civil war so be it. It is none of our business. As long as they keep it within their borders.

As far as the haves taking care of the "I'll sit on my ass and you take care of me bunch"
Well
It's called You don't work...You don't eat..Simple as that.

Just tuned in to this, belatedly...so I'll add a pair of pennies to the Laments. I don't think Immigrants, legal or otherwise, are America's Priority Problem. Historically, the American Indians were the ones with the BIG Immigrant Problem, & even THEY seem to be finding a "fix" with their burgeoning Casino-Building & Income, belated tho it be.

No, America's problem seems to be the Wealthier of Us don't have any Conscience about exporting America's Lower-Paying JOBS to some other Countries. As this takes place, the Unions that got the Wages up, & Benefits in-place, have had less-&-less Members..& Political Influence. So our Labor Force, probably one of the Best-Educated on the Planet, has less & less to DO. & with less & less to SPEND, why, let's all head to Wal-Mart & get the CHEAPEST Goods we can buy...(Hmmm..."Made in CHINA"?)

So guess WHY our money HERE keeps getting worth LESS and LESS abroad?

MEANWHILE, The Corporate GREED continues to drive up prices on Basic Commodities at a ridiculous rate: Insurance, Gasoline, now Foodstuff (Corn & Soybeans recently DOUBLED if you were paying attention). &, because the Buck's headed-South, your House's APPRAISAL also probably Doubled not TOO long ago. So your TAXES went up.

Now, unless your WAGES have also Doubled in recent years, you're NOT living in America as WELL as you think.

So..what Candidate has the Answers to "Job Creation (& retention)" and "New Industry" for this Country? If they DON'T, watch Americans become "The New Mexicans" before too-long.. (People tend to head off to where the Money-Earned BUYS Something...)

JMO,
Big Hugs,
Stan

We had too many people get it day one without paying a dime into it. And now the baby boomers generation is gobbling up the remainin resources and the government stole the funds for other programs (which should never have been allowed.. that money SHOULD have stayed in the fund with payments coming out of the interest.. but of course it didn't). It was criminal.. but we collectively elected the criminals from both parties to do it.

Now, they'd have to raise taxes beyond what would be accepted by the mass public to get it back in order. No one will get elected (or stay in power) who raises taxes that high. So they're all using band aid short term fixes which actually make the problem worse and worse. Meanwhile, life expectancy had increased so much that people are drawing on that fund 20-30-40 years now.. something FDR didn't really fully plan for at the time he created it. All those things have conspired to ruin it.

Anyone who is still working and doesn't have a 401K themselves or via their spouse is going to be eating dog food should they live to be 80.. it's going to be a sad situation.

Brian

Hey stan agree 100% We have the same problems in Britain. Imagine having to import Polish people to do our jobs cause we have not trained enough people ourselves. Then wonder why we have an unemployment prob.

We operate a system where the tax collected pays for pensions for those who have retired. That was OK when there were far more people working than retired. Now as Brian correctly states ther are more retired folk than workers so we are almost bankrupt and it is getting worse.

Any US president elected will have to sort out similar probs as a priority.

Well my priorities have suddenly changed

My Doc just called with the results of my Lab test and CT scan.

My cholesterol is up. He wants to put me on meds for that.
But
My abdominal aortic anuerism has grown .4 centimeters in six months and I now have a thickening in my esophagus that will need biopsied. Might be nothing might be something, LOL. But it wasn't there six months ago.

He recommends I do NO heavy lifting it could cause the anuerism to expand or burst, which would of course kill me.
I am remodeling my house in Tennessee. How do I do that without lifting anything.
And this is for the rest of my life.
And I had finally gotten a little comfortable with My Prostate Cancer. It took a couple years but I got there.

So suddenly I don't give a damn who wins the election.

Eh, lets see.
USSR. UNION of SOVIET SOCALIST REPUBLIC, or something like that. I don't think there is a lot of difference except maybe in the USSR if you went against the system you were sent to a Re-training facility to get your brain straightened out.

The reason Social Security is going broke is because there are less and less people paying into it so it can't sustain it's self. To keep it going taxes will have to be raised and that is not a political given. The baby boomers are just beginning to retire and will cause a huge drain on the system.
I don't look for anything to be done about it anytime soon.

If I said it's every man for himself would you know what I mean?

God bless you, Bill. Take it easy, compared to your health, remodeling a house is at least as insignificant as the election. It may take more time if you don't do heavy lifting, but you'll have more time if you don't do heavy lifting.

Come on down and hang out, do the easy stuff in the house, farm out whatever you can, slow down the schedule and gradually it will come together.

Just covertly referring to a particularly perverted priest I knew.

Mark,

I keep telling you, I was never a priest. Now, stop sending me those PMs and just LEAVE ME ALONE!

Social security, as it was designed, did, andd still should be working just fine. The problem is twofold, #1 all the "Loans" that should have been payed back and are never going to be; #2 is all the money taken from it for SSI and survivor benefits.

The difference between socialism in Scandinavia and most other countries that have tried it is they are willing to work at it, not just use it to get handouts.

Bill..

That's some scary stuff my friend. I had to talk with a heart doctor this week myself. Fortunately I didn't get admitted into the hospital this time. I certainly understand not being concerned with the long term. Frankly I haven't been too worried about soc. security myself for that reason. I'm trying to make it out of my 40's still kicking.. so worrying about mid to late 60's isn't much of a worry right now. Please don't try to be macho. Tough guys live and die like the rest of us.

Brian

What I find most interesting here is that no one wants to talk about the candidates, what they stand for, what they might do, what they are capable of, who might win, what ramifications it may have, why they'd vote or not vote for them.....etc

....but everyone wants to talk about what is wrong and whose fault it is

Quite extraordinary actually and that may be the real problem. Too many voters are far too busy looking for scapegoats and throwing stones to find out who might best lead them.


Ignarus iuguolo democracy

Just a thought but we generally have less than 50% turnout in our elections. The main reasons given for not voting is a complete disrespect and regard for the candidate his party and their policies. "They are all the same" and it will make little difference who I vote for.
That is not necessarily my viewpoint but a common criticism.

Yeah, common problem Big Jim...


"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

Hi John V,

The problem is, we only have a choice of the lesser of 3 evils. Now I get to choose a Democrat who wants to spend money without a care where it comes from, or a Republican who wants to be mostly a Democrat. Unless something drastic comes up, like a write in candidate who has a real chance, I'll have to take my chances with the Republicrat.

None of the three has a realistic solution for the problem that concerns me the most, the illegal invasion.

prsonally I prefer the Demolican.

No I doubt many minds changed here....

I forget who but someone once said "All politics are personal".

I suspect few of my beliefs are due to intellectual thought - They're probably overwhelmingly based on personal experiences. I'm thinking it might be the same for most of us...

When I sat down and asked myself why I believe in social security, I found it is almost entirely because of my personal experience with it.

My father died suddenly 6 months after he retired. I was still a minor (I was a late, late baby) and was able to collect social security for several years. Should I have been able to? Probably there's split opinion on this here. What I told myself at the time was, "Look your old man paid into it every day of his working life and didn't get to collect a penny". But then, humans can rationalize anything.

What it did for me though was that I could work part time and continue my education, as opposed to having to take a full time job. I devoted myself to my studies through college, did well in my classes, and got started down a path that has led to a wonderful career for me.

Would I have done ok if I hadn't gotten social security? Sure I would've - I probably would have ended up on a line somewhere, possibly making it to shift supervisor someday. Would have been a good life.

But instead of telling myself how lucky I am every night, I would have been always wondering what could have been.

So yeah, my politics are personal....I think government does well because it has done well for me....

I doubt anyone is going to change anyone else's mind here - because how can reading about someone else's experience trump your own personal ones? Nevertheless, I read these threads because when I read about Mike's friend Crazy Eddie, or Jim's whacky chromo, or Sub's medical problems, or Bill having his instruments stolen, you all become a bit bigger to me - whether I agree with your politics or not. I find that more fun and interesting than politics....

EDIT: Bad wording there - The concept that you all become bigger to me by sharing your experiences is what is fun - not the fact that many of them are misfortunes...

Scott

Mike...Brian....
I'm cool. It was just another rude awakening to my mortality. Sheesh I hate that word.
Mike I was too upset to drive down today. I'm coming down tomorrow. I might try to make it to the VFW if I get there early enough and ain't too tired from the drive.
I need to find a couple guys looking for work I can trust.

Now to the business at hand.

What these three butt heads that want to be president stand for?

That's a darn good question. I have been reading their websites and watching the debates and I still have not heard anything concrete. A lot of promises and Smoke and mirrors but nothing that I think will stand the test of time...

The two things that top my list of worries. How are they going to get some decent blue collar jobs back in this country. It is one thing to say they will create jobs, another to do it. I'd like to hear an outline of their plan..

Number two on my list. Illegal immigration and Amnesty. I am totally 100 % against any kind of amnesty. No fast trak to citizenship. They go back across the border and take their kids with them and stand in line like other folks.....AND repeal the law that allows an Illegal to have a baby in this country that becomes a citizen and make it retroactive for 18 years. Legal age.
All three of these candidates favor AMNESTY. McCain is the only one that says he will secure the borders. Obama and Clinton are both against closed borders.

Why do I care...For me I don't, my life is essentially done.

None of this will affect me personally except it raises my Blood pressure when I have to listen to weenie bleeding heart liberals that want to give our country away but I'll still defend their right to say it.
It will effect my Grandkids and Great Grandson. It is already effecting my Grand Kids. They are having a real hard time finding decent paying jobs.
My daughter and her husband are leaving Michigan. They are moving to Chicago hoping to find factory work there. My Grandaughter left Michigan She now lives with her boyfriend in his Grandmothers house on the North side of Chicago. She was able to find a job there working in Marshalls.

They are the reason I care about this election. There is essentially nothing left in Western Michigan except fast food and farm work(berry and Apples) and that industry in Dominated buy Mexicans, Mostly illegals. Of course the farmers claim they can't get Americans to do the work. No they can't. Americans won't live 10 people in a 12 X12 migrant worker shack with no running water And work out in a field picking berries for minimum wage from dawn til dusk with no health insurance.

It use to be that young people took the low paying entry level jobs. I did. I took a fast food restaurant job at a Tasty freeze when I was 14 years old. I even served a tasty freeze to Marty Faye once. (google him if you need to know)
Now those jobs are filled by young folks trying to support a kid or seniors trying to make ends meet.

I have determined that I am basically a Coward. If I had any cajones I'd be standing in front of the white house demanding that they do something. I'd be out there knocking on doors trying to wake people up to what the hell is going on in this country. I'd be standing on the roof screaming I am Mad as hell and I ain't going to take it any more. I'd be joining the citizen group that is trying to patrol our southern border. I turn in the Illegals that I know live down the road Or blocking the door at the local welfare office where they don't speak ENGLISH. But my English speaking tax dollars are supporting their asses.
But I don't do any of this stuff. My apathy knows no limits. I can sit here at this computer and make all the racket I want but if I don't get off my ass and actually do something nothing will change.

I'd demand that every High School kid had to read and MEMORIZE ATLAS SHRUGGED. The book that preceded all this and everyone said it would never happen.

But....who am I...Just a cowardly old man and I just don't have the will to fight them anymore.

Hi Bill,

Do you know where Watervliet is? I spent two summers there picking strawberries, running a bluberrie pickin' machine, picking tree fruit, and running a packing shed etc. I made darned good money at it. I also saw tons of illegals coming in with welfare checks and food stamps from every state the passed through to get there. I saw stores there that would sell them anything for food stamps, then put groceries from cash sale on the food stamp vouchers. I also saw food stamps being bought by store owners, and people who couldn't collect them for pennies on the dollar. My parents were migrant workers, and we didn't have it anywhere near as good as they have it today. But we still made a living at it till my dad got too ill to follow the crops.

I'm sorry to hear about your health. I hope things turn out OK for you. 6 more months and I'll be back down there for good. If you haven't got your house all fixed up by then, maybe I'll get to do some heavy lifting at yours while you help me with the tedious parts of mine...

Hi John
My wife worked at Watervliet Hospital for 8 years. She is an RN.
Watervliet is about 10 miles west of me.
Nothing wrong with being a Migrant worker. Some folks think it's a great way of life. I always thought it might be fun for a few years but I am such a home body I don't think I could do it.

Next time you are down that way If I am there lets get together. Maybe we can haul Mike out for a cup of coffee.
My place is in Joelton right off Clarksville Pike. About 20 minutes from down town Nashville.
I'm going tomorrow. I'll be there for 11 days.

Hey Bill small world my wife is a nurse as well.

As am I. Small world indeed. I worked for Friday Farms for a while down there. I even spent a while rebuilding some of the original Friday orchard tractors that were built out of surplus trucks from WWII. We'll get together when I get back down there,

Didn't know that Big Jim.
Nurses are the backbone of the medical profession and if the Nurses over there are anything like the nurse here they are grossly underpaid.

Who is John Galt

Bill, yeah, Ive been referring to that book for a few posts now....

It should be required reading for everyone, and I do believe Ayn Rand will be seen as an important philosopher of the 20th century.


Not that I believe everything she said, but she does throw you far to the right of Atilla The Hun, at least until you come back some with a social conscience.

I have thought about this a long time and haven't read it in a book anywhere but I have concluded this: Money is a total mental construction.

When you say we should have spend the "money" we spent on the war on social programs; or, if you say the government stole the pension fund and now there is no "money" to fund our children's retirement-I think that is all an illusion- because money is a mental construct. It is only a marker for human activity.

If you think about it, you can't put money away, because it has no substance. You can put wheat away, store up oil in a well, stock shelves with canned food etc. - but storing "money" has no meaning. That is because money is really at it's heart- an adjective. When you "save" your money, it isn't stored at all. It is invested. You may not invest it, but someone is taking the "marker" representing your enterprise, energy, activity etc. and has started (really only on faith) other activities, energy and enterprises hoping that someone will give them a marker.

So when we say the coffers are empty- that there is no money- it really means that there is no human activity. But you protest! Well if all money is, is human activity, then what causes human activity to slow down? Why do we have recessions? But a recession, like money, is a mindset; and the "economy" itself is a mental construction.

We could drive an entire national economy out of the gambling industry if we wanted to. So all these gambling casinos pay the dealers and food service folks, the money counters etc. and they go out and buy houses and food and cars etcetera . Most of us think gambling is a vice and I am one of those, but the point is- all you need to drive an economy is human industry of any kind and the wheels on the bus go round and round.

If I were writing the next president's victory speech, I would say: We didn't take food out of the mouths of babies when we launched the Apollo program in the 60's and put a man on the moon. We put people to work and there was nothing stopping us then and nothing stopping us now from putting people to work feeding the hungry if that is our focus. It is all just human activity.

We can build an economy on anything we want to. So why don't we build it "green". Lets build our economy on clean air and energy independence. Lets build it on "health". No, not health care! Health. Lets fund health. Let re-establish the National fitness standards for our children. Lets educate people on how to stay well. Lets open up more community centers instead of closing them. Let ask our children to give a year of service to their nation while we're at it. Let build an economy on rebuilding the state and national infrastructure. We can do this because money is an adjective! All it is, is people in motion doing things. That is why inspiring leadership is important. That is why it is more important to know what the "vision" is of our presidential candidates than what their "programs" and plans are. A president needs a vision not an agenda.

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Fear of "money" or lack of it, is a self-fulfilling prophecy unless we understand that money is just people doing things. If we see that, "money" stops being a thing and begans to be an activity.

When I drive along the Columbia River highway between Oregon and Washington, I see things built in the late 30's and early 40's that blow my mind. Four of the biggest damns in the USA are built there. The highway is beautiful. The original rock walls and scenic lookouts are still there. Your home state may have the same kinds of projects built when people were put to work in by the 100's of thousands in the late 30's. The Tennessee Valley Authority sent power to 10's of thousands farms.

Money is really all about "doing" something. "Money" is an adjective. You can't save it. If you think you can, you are deceiving yourself. Inflation, recession, stagflation, a falling housing market, the perils are endless. The only safe way to save is to put your own money to work- yes that means you will have to get off your butt. The only thing "money" ever did was to cause someone to "do" something. It might be to build something, move something, tear down something, waste something, horde something, share something, lead someone, hurt someone, heal someone, corrupt someone, teach someone....it goes on forever but "money" is only people in action.

Dang, Joe - that's thought provoking!

Scott

Great post Joe. Did you think that up yourself or is that from someone else originally?

Brian

Hi Guys and Gals:

I've tried to avoid this thread 'cause it takes me away from writing new songs and trying to get them "out there" so I can find a way to tunnel my way to the top of the pyramid.

Much as I'd like to think it will make two hoots in hell who wins the election (Huckabee is the only honest person in the race)... it really won't. (Forgive me, I left out Ron Paul.)
I know, neither of them have a ghost of a chance... or do they?

Our system here in the USA is bound up tightly in a couple of things. First, we have a two party system... and both are rotten to the core with self serving programs and agendas. Secondly, we have a three part government: Executive, Legislative and Judicial. This part works pretty good 'cause for the most part, none have sufficient power to really have their way. (Our judicial branch needs a major overhaul to prevent them from legislating.) These airheads are nominated and confirmed practically for life. (I would impose a ten year term... max!)

For my part, I would like to see our election process changed radically, so... as our founding Christian Fathers intended... the common man could run for office and be elected without spending his/her life savings away to run for a job that pays diddly... so they usually spend their entire time in office lining their pockets and continuing to run for the next election instead of doing what they were elected to do in the first place.

Don't fret. Life will go on. Liberty (loosely defined) will continue to thrive and we won't have a recession just because the leftist media wishes it to be... NO MATTER WHO GETS ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THE USA! That's just my take... and yes, I approved this message.

If nominated, I will not run. If elected, I will not serve. I'm too busy writing songs.

Dave

Good post Joe..
Lots of interesting points.

Thanks Scott. And Brian, my ideas about money are my own. I wanted to take economics in college but all the "schools" of thought were based on old ideas that have been around for centuries. One book would tell you how the money supply works and another would tell you how banks work, or how labor and management relationships shaped government policy. It all seemed, and still does seem, too complicated.

In college, I wanted to take a course in "basic" economics but it seemed like no one really teaches basic economics. They call it that, but it is really just rehashed theories. And I did not want to take a course unless I really felt the professor knew what economics was at it's core. So I never took a course in it and in all my readings since, I have never finished a book on economics because none of them taught what I wanted to know. It is kind of like the way I feel about music. I took guitar lessons for about 3 or 4 sessions about 30 years ago. The guy would show me something and I guess he was right, but his playing was awful.I didn't want to learn from somebody who was awful. I guess that is why they tell you to only take lessons from a "player" not a teacher. I did not need this guy teaching me a lot of bad habits- I can pick those up all by myself-

anyway I feel the same way about learning something important like how money works. I puzzle over it all the time. I never hear anyone talk about it except in terms of "investment strategies" or "supply side economics" etc. It is like there is this Elephant in the Room and nobody knows how to talk about it.

Economics is something I think about every day. Why are some people rich and some poor? I grew up very poor in South Albuquerque and my father was an impractical poet and dreamer who could not provide for his family, while my uncle was moderately wealthy and stable. I wanted to live with him. Over the years I began to believe that "prosperity" was more a state of mind, or at the very least, a state of expectation. I was seventeen before I had more than one pair of shoes. It didn't occur to me that I could. Now that was entrenched poverty! Realizing that I couldn't even imagine more than one pair of shoes and then recognizing, and being horrified by, my own poverty of mind, may have been my first thoughts about economics. So I have thought about this for a long time.

Nice Post Joe,

I read something a coupla months ago that went along the lines of "If all your problems can be solved with money, then you should be thankful"...Money is nothing more than a commodity & commodities come and go...Granted, money can help, but if you asked a billionaire with terminal cancer which he would rather have, money or his health,it puts things in perspective.

To wake up breathing each day is a gift...What we do each day with that gift is what matters...Dream big, dream small, the size doesn't matter, it's the ability to pursue the dreams that will allow us to touch other's lives and make a difference.

Just my thoughts...

Midnite

Hi Joe,

It is very thought provoking. The only thing wrong with it, is part of the basic premise. For you to put people to work, the people have to be willing. As long as you have people who would rather do nothing, and let everyone else support them, you are going to end up with the problems we have today. "Money" is the reward system by which we define our efforts. Some are lucky enough to be able to put away plenty with very little effort, while the rest of us have to strive to put enough away to keep us in the years after we are able to earn it ourselves.

Money is not just an idea. How many folks out there can survive on an idea. All commodities are, in one form or another, money. If all the monetary systems in the world collapsed there would be chaos. Then anyone who had goods, are a way to acquire them, would be king. Then goods would be the new "Money". In the barter system, goods, or the hours of labor you put into them; are money. If, or should I say when, the social security system collapses, are people going to step in and say "That's OK, we know you worked extra hard all your life, so just tell us what you need and you can have it"? When all the social programs collapse, from the shrinking tax base and rising demands on them, how many are going to be able to feed the millions that are on them?

Money causes problems, sure. But as long as we live, we are going to have some form of it. You are right, money is an idea, but it also has form. It doesn't matter wether the form is green paper, gold, or me giving someone three hours work for three hours of theirs; it is still form.

I do believe this country could get everything back on track by the fruits of our own labor. I believe that a good start, would be to send goods instead of dollars, as aid to foreign countries. Not only would it help the people of those countries more, it would rebuild America's economic system. We would build more factories, restart a lot of the farms that are now laying idle, and create enough jobs to shrink the jobless rate to next to nothing. We could use the money now going into the bank accounts of the leaders of most of those countries to pay for it. We could also offer jobs to the unemployed building a fence on our southern border that would put the great wall of China to shame.

There is plenty that could be done. There is probably little that will be. This will continue as long as people feel that they deserve to live off the efforts of others. I'm not talking about the rich, or businesses that operate legally, effort/money was needed to get them where they are. I'm talking about the chronically lazy. As long as they are rewarded for doing nothing, these problems will exist. One way to fix that, a labor force draft. One that includes everyone that can work, doesn't, and has no visible means of support. This includes everyone that doesn't file tax returns. Use this labor force for public building or rebuilding projects. make it a two year commitment where their basic necessities are met, and their salaries are all kept in the bank until the two years are up. When they are done, they have a nest egg to start a new life, and a work ethic which they probably never learned in the first place.

Ah, if I were king....

Joe,

I love it. You're right, money is work. It's work you do today for a hamburger tomorrow. The problem is, the guy who would give you the hamburger today for your work, might not need your work as much tomorrow.

We used to get gold for our work. In good times, someone wanted to wear that gold. In bad times they'd trade that gold for hamburgers, which they'd eat. Can't wear hamburgers, at least not for very long. Pretty soon the men with the guns (government) wanted a cut in the action (notice how we say that...a cut in the action....action....work). So the men with the guns printed up pieces of paper and traded them for gold. They kept the gold in safe places "called safes" and piled the gold up...they "banked" it. Those pieces of paper were supposed to certify that they kept gold banked up in safes, so they called them "certificates."

Then the men with the guns did a very stupid thing. Only they thought it was smart. They stopped certifying that those pieces of paper represented the gold they had in their banks. They certified that they were worth a word. A dollar was no longer a dollar's worth of gold. It became a dollar's worth of a dollar, whatever the heck that is. Read a dollar. It says it's good for all debts public or private. So, privately, I'll decide how many pieces of paper I need for my hamburgers. Publicly, the men with the guns decide how many pieces of paper they'll take from you each year. That's what the paper is worth. It's worth the work we do, minus the work we're made to do by the men with guns.

So, there is no zero sum for work. The more we work, the more work certificates we can pile up. But, there is a zero sum for the work we must do for the men with guns. Right now it's almost half the work we do. When it is all the work we do, and the men wit guns decide how many hamburgers we can have...that's socialism. When we have a say in agreeing how much work we give to the men with the guns, that's democracy. When we don't have to work for the men with guns, that's liberty. When we have to work for the men with guns, and other people get most of our hamburgers, that's Hillary.

Great post from Joe and from Mike. Both are correct. Let's add a third, albeit not nearly as eloquent piece to the puzzle that neither one touched on.

We have an additional dynamic that changes things as well. It's called "Ownership." In addition, there's also another called "Credit." These further complicate both Joe's and Mike's very intelligent conceptual commentary. One protects assets (at least for those very powerful) from the men with guns and the other puts people into slavery against future work. i.e. you have to do significantly MORE future work than you may be able to do even if you're willing. Now we see the double edged sword.

Of course, ownership bothered the men with the guns a lot, so they had to find a way to "legally" steal back a lot of that property and thus they invented property taxes and inventory taxes and death taxes, so even though things had been aquired through the system with work and with gold, the government could STILL come in and take it anyway, and do it "legally" enough to keep all the citizens with guns from ousting them. At the same time, the men with guns built much larger guns and enlisted much larger forces because in the US, there more than 1 gun per person already out in the community. The US could lose our entire military and short of nuclear weapons being used, easily defend ourselves from any foreign invaders with just the weapons we have in our homes. So the military needed a well armed internal military to keep any uprisings under their thumb. They call it the national guard, though it's really the trump card for the men with guns to retain power should anyone go all "1776" on them.

More food for thought.

Brian

Now I understand, power is the root of all evil. Problem is to get into power, they used money, or a lot of work which also = money, or certificates. And to own anything you had to have certificates or power which also = money. It's all a circular argument.

I'm leaving this post up for political discussion. Please folks, let's try to avoid personal attacks and discuss the issues. There's plenty to disagree about without making it personal.

Thanks,

Brian