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Hi Mike

Thanks for your reply, Yeah, it is definitely a nice flowing rock song, that we are getting from your music. But that's okay, if we get a great song out of this challenge, I understand now, that it isn't what you are looking for, but that's okay, I am having the best fun.

The chorus does flow nicely, the verse needs some work as to the line you mentioned, and you are right. These two lines, I just put there for the time being, that's how I song write, I try to get the structure, put them in, take them out.

These two lines, I just through in there!

Your beautiful smile, your strawberry red hair
Those cute little freckles, that match your hair

I would like my songs to be universal, not everyone has red hair and freckles, so yeah I agree with you, I am fascinated that you picked up on one of the lines, that I just through in there!

Thanks so much, I will keep working on it any way, it's good fun, and it will be a great song for my album.

Michele
Aussie girl from down under

Sub,

I'll play with the first two lines on the melody angle.
more drama is what I'm hearing from you.

Now I'm really confused...isn't Sub already using Derek's verse? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought Derek sang it like this awhile back, but I can't listen right now at work without the whole restaurant hearing it too. If I'm wrong, please forgive.

Looks like you need a chorus that we haven't yet heard...I don't think any of ours work yet now that we hear the context of your verse and pre-chorus. This is an alternative rock song, and it's a break-up song...that chorus will need to tie it all together.

I really like the sound you've got happening in the verse and the pre-chorus. Especially the "let you go" part--it defines the feel of the song. A cool tune.

Now for the uncomfortable part. Mike, you are always one to call 'em like you see 'em, and it always helps others. So I feel I have to do the same for you, whether you agree or not: I think your ending tag is unappealing. I know the words aren't set yet, but it sounds like you might have made up your mind on this one no matter what...but I honestly think the sound and feel of the ending would be a mistake. I'm just sayin'.

I agree with you Mark...

Guys,

I'm sorry I sound like a broken record....but, go back to the first page and read the guidelines...nothing is decided until after the 19th...Sub is giving encouragement to melodys and lyrics that he believes have potential with his song I believe nothing more at this time....after the 19th he will use what he believes is a great melody or lyrics or pieces of....to create the finished song....hence the co writing experience.

What we should understand is also Sub is under no obligation to use any of it....the same as when 2 or 3 people go into a room and write and just don't seem to come up with anything that works....Sub also is the lead writer in this session so its kinda black n white here....if he doesn't find something that works for him and his music we all take our lyrics/melodys and find a new home for them just like any other co write session...

I think if you're not used to writing this way its a complex concept to get around....but it works really well when there is a meeting of the minds. You get to create 2 or 3 outlets depending on the cowriters.

Plus in this forum it's safe...we all get to encourage one another and try different things that we wouldn't usually try for ourselves.

I'm not trying to be a smart alec just clearing the air..
and If I'm wrong.... Sub will set it straight.

Derek, Don't get flustered its all part of creating a song...There is no right or wrong just feelings...Don't bow out...thats easy...take the hard road, come on take my hand and walk with us. (You know you want to, you've invested so much of yourself already, keep going, it may not be comfy for you but thats part of this idea Sub has) .....

I agree with you, Kathy, but he said more recently he has decided to stick with the verse and pre-chorus melody he posted. And that's cool!

My point was...didn't Derek do that melody? And if so, he's doing good, right?

I know he said he was sticking with something....but that didn't mean that was the final pick....and we are all similar so I have honestly no clue who's melody is who's, that is not my strong suit..... ...

If he decided early he would have closed the contest...and he didn't....

Post deleted by Derek Hines

But Derek, What if he chose to blend the two rewite part of yours and part of his...then you would have bowed out for no reson at all.

Post deleted by Derek Hines

Sorry to hear that, bro. Sounds like I was wrong about that verse. Still, your ideas seem mighty close to the ballpark...

As for me, I'm just going to try to think on a suitable chorus, based on Mr. Mike's advice:

Post deleted by Derek Hines

Nothings changed Derek, we all play nicely together.... that wasn't in question.

I just didn't feel it was written in stone yet...and there are opinions to be heard...such as yours.

Okay I won't hash about it anymore....

Hello....

Okay I'll do my best to keep stuff clear, Kathy has done a lot to help with that.

My verse melodies, my pe-chorus, & my chorus melodies (which have never been posted) were developed years ago. The key words in the verse were from years ago as well. No one's verse sounds even close to mine, go back and listen.

Derek- don't be upset... we are working on a few levels and things here at the same time. You have been terrific with all of it.
If you get flustered or upset when you ideas aren't accepted, don't be involved in the music business, don't show anyone songs you write, dont perform live, don't enter contests.... Nice choices huh? I got a better idea... don't get upset.

Derek - No offense and I repsect your opinion as well as everyones, but how many ROCK songs have you written? In particular modern rock songs.

For all...
See one of the things that goes on here and on many forums is a lot of talk and a lot of criticizing of new music and this & that. So many people knock things they can't even match. And they cant do the equivalent even in there own style.

I'm trying to accomplish a few things here at once, maybe it should have been
SONG CONTEST with NO gain whatsoever..

And I never ever come back and respond to anyones post giving them NO feedback
or comments, or direction the whole entire time. Does that sound better? Nay!

I won't say a word till I announce the winner... there will be a winner but that still does not mean your a co-writer. Kathy help me lol ...

The world is competitive the music business is BRUTALLY competitive,

I'm pushing, you I'm challenging you.

Post deleted by Derek Hines

Derek,
Sorry, Im gonna comment, but what your talking about is production...that is solved by hiring a singer that sings rock music in the style we are writing....If Sub is going to invest his time, studio, money in creating a master copy, it will be able to be played in a movie, on the radio, etc....If his vocals don't cut it I'm sure he will not use them....but just like I suck at singing the only way for me to get the point across is too sing it....What we are still doing is work tape stuff...so, that said,you did not like the melody line then, not the vocal rendition of the melody line?....which are two seperate beasts....

Derek you're doing the right thing by talking about this, usually that comes first though. We can't read Subs mind so we have to ask. In a routine session we would be in the same room and you would be able clear your thoughts immediately.

Hey Buddy

It's all good. So you listen to a lot of modern rock, but you dont write it, play it sing it or produce it. How many bands have you been in? all this stuff plays into the game.
You have to be BRUTALY honest with your yourself, I am all the time. that's why I bust my ass. If singing isn't my strong point as you reminded me, then where does yours stand
I intentionally revealed that I mumble into the microphone on occasion to inspire and help my songs melodies phrasing, meter and give the co-lyricist sitting next to me something to write to & work from.

As for lyric you have seen & heard what my completed work is like, As a matter of fact I have NEVER posted an incomplete song here or on the lyric board.
I'm very aware of how this concept and thing I'm trying here could back fire.
It's supposed to be fun, doing what you love even if it's hard work is fun.

I took the tougher road here : I know who is really really good here and at a pro level in many regards. I could have PM messaged them and tried a collab out like that very easily....

That's would ANYONE & EVERYONE would do.... I'm different!\

Think of those TAXI listenings, where you pay to submit for years and get little to nothing in return.
I felt I was offering something of use.....

It's all good... & Mark - I agree with your points on the song.

This song was tossed aside for a reason, that's why I'm hooking it up with this
exercise/contest/ thread... for input

Post deleted by Derek Hines

No see you are taking it personal, I have absolutely No Doubt you listen to amazing rock music....I on the other hand listen to country and I like R&B, occasionaly there is top 40 stuff that catches my attention....and I had to make a point of going to listen to rock bands to try and understand what Sub is looking for.....

All of the above has nothing whatsoever to do with co writing....

I think the bottom line is you either trust the people or ya
don't....sorry that looks harsh in print...but I'm saying it gently....

I guess in a nutshell no meeting of the minds....

I'm done no more opinions from this know it all woman...

Post deleted by Derek Hines

Passion, I understand that.....

Post deleted by Derek Hines

Hey, how about those Mets?

I listen to all those groups as well, and I don't really write or produce like them.
But what I do know is my lyrical concepts and my verse melodies had the most angst of any posted on this thread. That is my opinion and when I play it for the young band that stops by the studio, I'll prove my point to myself.

What I had planned to do was take the top 5 entries and sing them over myself,
even though I dislike my voice people actually hire me all the time to sing there songs. Go figure.

This way when I played the entries for my friend who shops my music as well.
He would not be influenced by the vocal. I would fix the timing issues I keep hearing and the pitch issues best I could.

This is a TON of work, so is going back and forth like "I'm bickering with girlfriends I hardly bicker with the wife, so I had to go back to girlfriends lol...

I also planned to figure out how to use Mike D's Poll tester and for fun wanted to do a listeners poll here on JPF for the peoples choice winner of the contest...

But I think I made my deadline too long, I'm wiped out from reviewing so many entries alone, and so many have the same main melodies over several versions.

I know who did what, I know who did what first, I know what your hooks are and I was going to be bringing in an outsider to help me out from a fresh listeners percpective.

I know your folding Derek so I may as well let you know your chorus melody
was going back and forth between 5th & 4th place which would have made it to the next stage.

I think we were VERY successful here overall and accomplished many things.
I can't thank you all enough.

I'm a tough dude but you's wore me down I'll be back on this thread after the 19th to conclude it...

Thankyou...

No, thank YOU, Mike. This was an excellent exercise and a selfless offering from you...something you didn't have to do, but you did. I appreciate your gift to the community here!

It gave me a chance to learn Cubase, too.

As for me, I write for the writing...in other words, I find the process more stimulating than the result. And this exercise offered a very fun process--seek the best complementary melody to an existing song. Very awesome endeavor. To me it's not about "winning" or even being selected...it's about DOING it. The most fun comes from the so-called "work" we do at home. If that ain't pleasant, it shouldn't be tried. But I've been having an absolute blast with it (so much that I'll STILL give another shot, even if you're understandably done listening), just because I like doing it so much. And for that, you deserve a humongous THANK YOU!

Shout out to Paul T Wentworth - I listened to your song and that was a great writing job and a your vocal was one of the best I've ever heard you do. So I guess we are all inspiring each other. Personally I'd love to turn this world around. So here's to you brother! And best of luck.

Pete

I totally agree with Lyle about this process. This is an awesome songwriting workshop! Sub has devoted tons of time to not only giving general critiques of our songs, but giving specific advice on how to write for THIS project.

Hey, I wrote a song that was a swing and a miss, but based on his comments about my song (and all of your songs) I wrote another one that I'll post as soon as I can get B in front of the microphone. Maybe (probably!) it's another swing and a miss. So what? I'm just trying to learn how to write better songs and trying to get everything I can out of this opportunity.

Derek, for the record I think you wrote some great stuff forthis contest. I think Sub is judging our work based not only on quality, but on how closely it matches what he is looking for.

Mark

To All and Mostly to Derek,

Feel your pain Bro. I spent a chunk of time working my verse melodies and redoing lyrics only to find that the verse melodies had already been decided. I've already swallowed a fair amount of poop and decided to keep going, so I feel like I'd like to try another chorus that would follow the verse/pre that we now have. Just so I can feel like I've emptied myself out on this song. And it's still kinda fun because it's so far from the kind of thing I normally write.

There was a couple of things said before that I'd like to belatedly respond to.

I never thought of my original "Colossal" as a country song. I thought it could be a song for a boys band like on Disney Radio. And I always thought I was was writing with Mike Caro when I wrote to his music, I just didn't express myself very well in my original post.

I don't think that I 'borrowed' from Mark K. in creating my chorus melody. I posted my first draft about a day after his and I had been working on it a couple of days before that and I had the melody before I had the words. There may be a couple of notes the same but a couple of notes is not the same as three or four measures the same. I'd be interested if Mark has any comment on that though.

It reminded me of Faith Hill being sued for using the chorus of "It Matters to Me" in a song she took credit for writing. That was settled out of court to avoid embarrassment. But as a group of songwriters I felt I should have been supported rather than slapped down as a bad sport.

All that said I'm not bitter about anything and we all come with different ideas and levels of experience so I'm still working on a few final ideas before Wed. And I can sympathize with Sub, it wears me out just doing a few song critiques. And I feel bad sometimes that can't devote more energy to it.

Pete

Whoa,

I am kind of saddened at the way this is going. I appreciate so much the opportunity to work with people when it is right feeling for me. I actually posted a whole remake of Subs music with a wild angry rock girl lyric,lol, but I deleted it. That does not mean that I do not love this type of post. I think it is an honor just to be given the chance to work on someone elses song, like a canvas that is half painted.

I worked probably a few hours on this, but that was my choice, because it was exciting and I do not regret it one bit. But I guess I did not think of it as a contest, but just another opportunity to learn and submit. Every single song I work on is more experience for me no matter what the reason I work on it is or where the song goes.

Now, I did not delete my post because I was upset, hurt, sorry for myself, or feeling left out. I did it because I am experienced enough to know it was not the right fit and there was no need to clog up the boards with it. If I had deleted it because of one of the previous reasons, I might have posted saying that I was withdrawing because I was hurt or mad etc, really hoping someone would write me back and console me and ease whatever it was I was feeling.....

Well, not really, because that is not how I work. I would have just deleted it and removed myself and left it at that. I know that some need more reasurance than others, and some need to win the whole pinata instead of one piece of the candy, but that has never been my degree of competitiveness. I like to give sometimes, hope someone likes it and accepts it, and in return, maybe someday the help will come back to me.

I like to express my thoughts and ideas on someone elses creation also, but I never, in anyway expect anything from them. I take no offense if I offer lines or suggestions on words or music and these do not grab the writer or performer. No one owes me anything for allowing me to offer my contributions.
I do not think it is an insult when something I submit is not used, because there are so many millions of ways people hear music, especially their own, and about as many different ways that it can be expressed. It is all in the preferences of the original person who created the song, and in the end the people who hear it.

I am wishing with all my might that Sub doesn't get a bad taste in his mouth and spit us all out and never post another fun opportunity as this because a small controversy has appeared. I was hoping we could start a regular post like this each week, or each month or something because I enjoy seeing people work together and the end product that comes from that team work.

We must learn not to want recognition so badly that it turns into sounding disgruntled, because there are a million opportunities to work with people if you have the right outlook on working with them. Everything we create is never going to be loved by everyone else in the world, we have to learn patience, perserverance and acceptance of rejection, if we are truly going to celebrate our acheivements.

I just like to ride the Peace Train singin all the way

Letha

Oh, by the way, do not apologize for your voice Sub. Never again apologize for it, celebrate that it is good.

Letha I like what you said!

Sub....Question......Is it possible to strip down your music and put up the basic sound, with 3 days left...maybe we will hear something different.....I understand the cake is baked (an analogy Iggy used way back trying to explain...LOL) but maybe you have seperate tracks of the bells and whistles.....

Of course you didn't, Pete. As I recall, Mike was just making a point to you about how some of our offerings naturally end up sounding similar, just because it's all done to the same music...he didn't mean to imply you had lifted anything from me. It was just a counterargument to your concerns in your "Paranoid Pete" post.

Good God, no. I have no issues with anyone here, especially not with the gentleman who wrote "The Other Side of Goodbye". Pete, you are a hell of a good writer.

Folks, in any contest, we always enter knowing there will be more losers than winners, don't we? Thing is, I can't find any losers here. It's just a feeling, you know. Let it go. We're all winners.

Why not? Take 2 for me.

MP3: http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6334317

Kevin

*********************************************************
Somehow, Someday
(c) Caro/Emmrich 2008

(verse)
0:14 - Now how did we get into this present situation?
0:23 - Keep on this road and we're gonna fall prey to outside temptations.
0:31 - But I still think we can stop this thing from going down
0:40 - we might have one more chance to turn our love around
0:46 - So I say to you ....

(Chorus)
:48 - Somehow if we try, we can make it through
:57 - Someday you will call me and say
1:05 - (that) Somehow I made it all up to you
1:15 - and Someday we'll remember this day

(post chorus)
1:23 - But it won't make any difference
1:28 - If you're not with me
1:30 - Somehow, Someday

(verse)
1:41 - When it's all been said and done and the table has been cleared
1:50 - Can we set it back up or will our love just disappear
1:58 - But I still think we can stop this from going down
2:07 - and we might have one more chance to turn our love around
2:13 - So I say to you ....

(Chorus)
2:16- Somehow if we try, we can make it through
2:24- Someday you will call me and say
2:33- (that) Somehow I made it up to you
2:42- and Someday we'll remember this day

(outro/ending)
2:51 - But it won't make any difference
2:55 - If you're not with me
2:57 - Somehow, Someday

MP3: http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6334317

*******************************************************

chao

IMO the internet presents a unique set of problems when co- writing because this whole thread Derek, would have taken 5 min of conversation and you would not feel bad or felt like people were questioning your judgement to choose. I have run into where people can't see your face or the inflection in your voice and it does make it harder to figure out if someone is just being a tool or are they really trying to do ya a solid. I myself haven't figured out the way around this problem...
I keep using the little smileys and all that, same as all of us...but sometimes you still come across as being "fresh" with no intention of that when your just trying to be "real"

I'm a tough dude but you's wore me down I'll be back on this thread after the 19th to conclude it...

I kind of knew this is where you would end up...beat up and tired...good luck

So Derek, this means you might win as the one "who's submission matched up the best with the music", but still not be used when he gets down to recording his ultimate demo. However, if you got to the #8 thing, and he DID use it for his demo, then you WOULD be a cowriter/co-owner, and you COULD shop it.

Post deleted by Derek Hines

Derek,
I think he was referring to what Mark was saying...and then he was trying to be funny, cause, I took it upon myself to explain before...thats all. I don't believe he changed anything.

Well, I just took the time to go through all the posts and listen to all the various versions. There was a ton of stuff to plough through, but it I guess it was made infinitely easier because Derek deleted all of his friggin' posts (though I think I read everything on page 6 before it got deleted)!

I heard some interesting stuff out there. Good luck to Sub -- I hope he finds what he is looking for.

[rant]
The only thing I gotta say about all this is that I have seen some hurt feelings and anger displayed here (not just Derek) and well - shame on you all and quit your whining! Go back and look at the comments Sub made on my first submission -- he blasted me! And all I could say was he's right, I'll try and do better next time. I don't know if my newest one is any better and I might get blasted again. I think Sub hit the nail on the head when he said that if you don't like can't handle criticism and rejection -- you had better not publish any music anymore. 15 minutes or 20 hours -- it doesn't matter how much time you spent on it. Only the results matter. To summarize: QUIT WHINING!
[/rant]

Kevin

OMG Kevin that is six pages of stuff and songs and critiques....ouch...

Hi Kevin

My final version is still up on sound click if you were curious. As for me yup I'm a whiner I admit it! I just feel burned out now and I need a break.
Derek

Kathy: It wasn't that bad, I really was only a couple of pages behind. So when I got caught up, I then went back to page 1 and started listening to all the submissions. However a lot of the submitters just over-wrote their earlier songs (lyrics didn't match at all) so I skipped it until it came up later.

Derek: If you take a break, who's gonna comment on my tunes? I can always count on you! Of course, if you think you need a break -- then take one. You always seem to come back re-charged. Watch those extreme lows and highs, though. Up and down is natural, but if you overdo it, you can expect a train wreck.

Kevin

Hey Mark rofl that's me!

Hi Kevin
Naw not taking a break entirely just from working on songs other than writing lyrics lol.
Derek

Well cool - that means a lot to me. I went back and listened and frankly I was shaking my head trying to hear the similarity - I thought well some in the groove. Anyway good!

I'd rather be a dude than a gentleman, god, it sounds like I'm fixin' to die.

Okay, gotta go pick up pizza.

Pete

Mike: I Listened to all or most of the entries. Had to say Pete's caught my ears and held them there. Its tough when you have been pounding your head against the wall trying to shake loose a good hook/melody/lyric/etc, and then you hear a great melody line like I did when I heard the melody part :"Let me go down easy:. Wow damn! why couldn't I come up with something like that. This stuff is not for the weak of heart, the fragile of ego or the thin of skin. Its like - get knocked off the track - get back on - see what you can do - maybe get knocked off again and again - get back up question why it was you ever wanted to write songs - question if I will (or have ever ) write a decent song that someone, correction, a million or so someones would pay money for. Of course the answer to all the questions is that the money if it comes is nice,but, don't hold your breath, keep writing keep reveling in this wonderful world of words and notes and people like yourself and just be the song (oh god did I really say that?)when it arrives and I don't know why I am saying this at all except that I am having fun inspite of getting knocked on my ass a few itmes. This has shown me how to put my all into writing a melody and lyrics and then walk away and start over again. That's what I got from this and I think it was worth it!!

Now I want to ask you how are you holding up. I know how I would feel trying to deal with all kinds of other people's expectations and trying to be diplomatic at the same time you are feeling like s__t. I hope you get some relief from your health problems. And just wanted to express my gratitude for taking on such a selfless assignment. I suspect you get some level of satisfaction from doing this. And ultimately I am pretty sure you will get wometing back. If not, then there's no such thing as Karma in this life.

Regards...Paul

Regards...Paul

Hi my dear friend Mike,

I hope you are feeling better soon , I am a bit lost at the moment, my right arms been cut off, cause my dear friend Mike is sick and your not here, and now my right arms been cut off, cause my cute hubby has been sick as well . I'm shattered. Any way I thought I would still post what I have, it's not finished yet, and it won't be by the 19th, but that's okay, I will keep working on it any way.

Please remember,I am on my LEARNERS with song writing, so I did some changes, and I just wanted to know, is it better, or worse.

You Rock My World!(Baby,you drive me crazy)

Verse

The first time I saw you, my heart just stopped
My eyes, could see, it's only you that I want
Your beautiful eyes, that matches your looks
Your beautiful smile, that's (you've) got me (I am now )hooked


Chorus 1

Baby, you drive me crazy, you've (you) got me now
When, your lips touch(es) mine, ohh............
Baby, your driving me crazy, you've (you) got me now
When, your body touches mine ohh..............
Baby, you drive me crazy, you've (you) got me now

Copyrighted March 2008


Thanks a bunch


YOUR AUSSIE FRIEND

Michele

Hi Michele,

I'm still a "learner" myself....I'll take a stab at your revised lyric....for my 2 cents opinion....LOL

I like the sentiment "You got me know"
cause what you described IMO wasn't you drive me crazy its
"You caught my attention" You got me know....nice...

also the word beautiful is descriptive, but maybe you could be more detailed about the persons eyes or mouth. I wouldn't put the same word in the next line though maybe one line beautiful the next line something else....

The chorus I would change the last line of "baby you drive me crazy" to something else, let the "You got me know" be emphasised (punched out) at the end of the chorus....

Michele its a pretty lyric....For what my opinion is worth I like it... Keep going....I can't wait till the 19th.....

Mike,

Kinda been missing, lurking...and look at all this fun you guys are having...

Went the Scott route and just played a melody line on guitar...used an off-the-wall setting to convey that it's supposed to be the vocal line...

Modern rock...don't know no modern rock...ha..ha...I kinda hear these lines when the guitars go to the harmony...

Don't cry, no don't cry for me....ala alan parsons style...

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6371347

all the best...tom

Tom thats cool....I wish I knew how to do that....