JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum Hiring Musicians 101

I’m trying to educate myself more about the business, and have general questions about hiring musicians. I realize this is a very broad question and mileage varies from region to region. And I have no immediate plans to do any musician-hiring, either for recording or for performing; but I want to continue to build my knowledge base so that should I want to do anything a year or more in the future, I have some idea what I’m talking about.

I saw on another thread that someone was offering $50 for a guitarist for a gig, and that prompted a bunch of questions in my mind.

If you hire a couple musicians for a gig (say a guitar and drums), what are their expectations? What is a reasonable offer? What do you need to have on hand in terms of music? How much prep time (running through the music) would you expect?

What if the idea was to hire them for a series of gigs in the region, as an ad hoc band?

How about hiring musicians for a recording session? Is it a flat fee for the session, or is it by the hour? Do you ask them to sign work-for-hire agreements, or is it assumed?

I’m sure that the answer is “it depends…..” – I’d like to know what sorts of factors there are, and what musicians’ expectations are in these sorts of situations. Consider this a 101 thread for some basic ideas.

Z.

Mike Dunbar could probably give a better response but since I do some hiring of players I can offer a little insight.

For studios, it is either a per song basis or you can contract for a day or mulitple days. Most of the stuff that we do at Jay Verne's studio (where I do most of my stuff out of)we usually end up about $425-$550 per song for music tracks and $75-$125 per vocalists. I am usually the producer which means I make sure all charts are done, all pre-production is done, vocals and harmonies, everything comes in on budget. When you are part of a large group of songs, say 5-15, over one or two days, it is very easy to miss things, overdubs, certain tracks, getting players and vocalists scheduled and in and out, etc. so it helps to have someone who oversees everything.
Most players are booked in a certain block of time, say three hours, and are paid accordingly, depending on if it is a union or non-union session. Some studios charge "cartage" fee's, which are basically someone to move equipment around. Some of the higher scale players are not going to move equipment so you have to factor that in. And the higher the level room, obviously the more the cost. But some things can be negotiated. The studios are usually going to have a standard group of players they use that they have relationships with, know their playing techniques, styles, etc. It is more for effeciency than anything else.
For live, most players are happy with $50-$75 for a gig. This could be a three song writers set, or a more involved live show. We use the Nashville number system, which is a number system devised for many years where the numbers correspond to notes and chords, so if you were to transpose in a different key, the first number becomes the first number of whatever key you are in.
Sometimes, writers may utilize their co-writers to play for them if they are not as comfortable as they need to be. For instance, we often have female singers who use guitar players in return for singing some of the guitar player's female songs.

Obviously, the differing gigs can mean different money. A record label showcase can range from several hundred to several thousand dollars and the players are paid accordingly. To hire a group for a few gigs, often can be negotiated depending on how far the gig is, etc. I would expect to pay at least $125 per person if it is a road gig, or very involved. It comes down to how much work is involved. Some times musicians are also paid for rehearsals, as well as shows.
Again, there are frameworks for dealing with any situation. The union has some of those guidelines and not to slight the Union, they do good work in many areas and the president is a friend of mine, but there are many times they charge more than it is worth.
A lot of this has to do with how much work is involved in something. As you are around a town like ours, you meet people and many things can be worked out to mutual benefit of all parties. For a competant bass player and or guitar player/keyboard player to come in, read a few charts on a writers night, is one thing. To plan and rehearse a show for a publishing company, record company, etc. takes a good deal more planning, and as in everything, more money.
The good thing about it all is in most cases one person knows everyone else involved. If you wanted to book some kind of limited deal, one contact with a guitar player can probably provide all the other players. Although in those cases the leader in any session or live, is usually paid more, in some sessions double or triple. And another good thing is there are a lot of people here. So finding one person to get the ball rolling is usually pretty easy.
As far as LA, New York, Toronto, England, etc. I am sure there are exactly the same things, although from what I have been told by people who move here from those areas, they are usually VERY much more expensive. I'd like to think we do a little bit of everything here. I like to say we are Walmart. Quality products at reasonable prices.

MAB

In L.A., you won't find a competent musician who will play a 3-hour "cover" gig for less than about $125. That's no rehearsals - just show up and play - and that's the opening rate. Many want more.

In L.A., you will also find excellent musicians who will do a showcase for you for free or for gas money - if they like you and/or if you can swap some musical services with them (or paint their house - anything is fair barter).

It's a weird town....

Many singers and/or musicians will do a 2-3 hour demo session for $75, although some of the more experienced pros will want $100-125. Seasoned pro session players or singers will want $125-$200 and they'll have it all done in under an hour; some limit the time to 2 hours. Be well-prepared with lyric sheets, chord charts, and a good idea of what you want them to do.

Union rates are around $175 for a 3 hour session, plus cartage, plus any leader/contractor fees, etc.

Hey Z,

Marc and Larry have it pretty well covered.

Some things folks forget when they are hiring musicians:

Happy musicians play better.

Well fed musicians play better.

Musicians who have had a good night's sleep play better.

A great musician might not be a good driver. A good driver who can help carry gear is worth more than a friend to help with the artist's makeup.

The musician might not love your dog...don't bring it on the trip.

Well paid musicians play better.

After a nine hour drive, a hot shower and a good night' sleep is better than a sound check and a show.

Yes, the bandleader should get paid more.

The great majority of musicians want nothing more than to play your music better than it has ever sounded. But, they're really not that into your career unless they are getting a percentage, so don't always be asking them to do extras or freebies.

Don't play political games with the band, high school is over.

Don't hit on the musicians or their spouses. On the other hand, don't hire musicians or musicians with spouses that hit on you.

Don't bring your kids on the gig unless you want the musicians to teach them to cuss and play poker.

If you say the "R" word, rehearsal, don't be surprised if the musician says the "M" word...money.

If you're paying low wages, but riding in the stateroom in your Prevost bus, expect grumbling. You might find it hard to keep a band.

In the studio, don't forget coffee and food.

Be realistic. Some things can't be done on a low budget demo. Learn what can and can't.

If you have a sound you want, bring an example. I saw a songwriter waste hundreds of dollars because she wanted the song to sound like a George Strait song, but didn't know which one it was. After listening to three George Strait cd's, she wtill didn't know.

Don't let too many cooks spoil the broth. There should be one producer and one bandleader, they could even be the same person, but no more. I've seen two musicians argue for a half hour over the name of a chord. On one session, I was hired by a friend (sometimes that's a mistake LOL), to be the producer, then was told that another guy was going to also produce. My friend and I had spent a day getting the tempos down with a metronome. At the session, the other producer thought one song was too slow. We tried the song at different tempos and after a good long time ended up, I kid you not, in the original tempo we had already set.

Be realistic about your abilities and needs. If you're a singer, do you really need to play the guitar on the cd? I don't know how many cds of Bob Dylan's were sold because of his guitar playing, I doubt many, however, at least he's a decent rhythm player. Are you? If you don't know whether you are or not, ask me, but be forewarned, I'll tell you.

Loyalty and respect is not automatic, it is reciprocal, it comes with a price. Want a loyal band that respects you? Be loyal to them and respect them.

All the Best,
Mike

Thanks for the input, gents. No huge surprises, but I wanted to get a sense of how money and live music mix.

I'll especially remember the part about the dog.

Besides the music, it's really just about treating musicians like human beings.

What's the expectation for a band playing for 'donations'? For instance, on the Lower East Side, there's often no cover, just a bucket passed around 2/3 of the way through the show. The audience just passes the bucket from hand to hand and then gives it back to the bartender. I assume an up-and-coming band just splits that however many ways it goes?

(I saw one bizarre music-via-performance-art troupe at 1am on the LES. Strange comedy and every so often they'd swing into a musical piece, and their musicianship was up to snuff so you didn't feel they were having you on. The "bucket passing" was done by the bandleader, with a blindfold on....he stumbled around the tables and chairs, practically tripping over people and shoving the bucket in their laps. Very effective)

I have to throw just a quick word in here about Mike's amazing abilities. The Demo Derby last year showed me a universe of ability and talent that was stunning.

Tom

I would just add that for recording some musicians/vocalists have their own studios and for a set fee will, on a work for hire basis, lay down parts to order. You send them a click track or guide and they send you back their completed part.

For live gigs it is a recipe for disaster hiring someone in at short notice who you do not know or does not know your music. Even doing covers when they know the songs can be a disaster. Proper rehearsals are necessary to work out things like arrangements, key, harmonies and how the song will finish.

Thanks, Big Jim, more good common sense.

This isn't something I'm getting ready to do at the moment -- just some notions way at the back of my head. I'm collecting information and thoughts to file back there for the future. I appreciate the input.

For future ref it might be an idea to see what is available locally in the way of musicians and studios. Most music orientated guys are pretty decent and will help any way they can.
We often borrow and lend gear to each other or step in to cover gigs or a band member off on holiday or illness.

In my area we work a favour returned and barter system mostly. You do someone a favour and they return it. Even the studios come and go and will help by going the extra mile for less than the going rate. They usually are pretty good all round musicians as well as engineers and tech guys who will lay down parts as required and record and produce your songs.

I have been in the business a long time and know lots of people who as friends all help one another. I am pretty certain this bond is universal.

Best of luck.

Hello big Jim, my Scottish Brutha from another Mutha,

We had a Song Ramp guitar pull last night and were web casting. There are a couple of people in Scotland that are members that were sending messages and watching yesterday and last night. I don't know what time it is there but they were up late.We are in the middle of the Tin Pan South songwriter's festival here in Nashville, a week of shows and people that come in from everywhere. We are doing Tin Pan South tonight and my show at 6:30p here will be web cast on www.songramp.com.

The barter system is very universal here as well. Musicians are never the richest people so bartering services are a good way to operate. Writing songs with people with home recording systems are a good way to get work demos and take songs the next step. And having multiple people to perform with and interact with are good steps to get yourself and your music out there.
Part of all of these threads, comments, support, advice, etc. are all about supporting the community. We are all pretty much alike in different parts of the world. So I think this kind of place and others are part of that community. At least I hope so.

MAB

well it depends on the musician, here in spain you can pay 200-250 dollars for a cellist, around 80 dollars per gig to a guitarrist, but if they're known that's another thing...

Priscilla,

I might have to brush up on cello and move to Spain

A band I was with played the 1992 World's Fair in Seville, and while there we visited Barcelona, lovely city.

All the Best,
Mike

Interesting accumulation of experiences and price ranges. Something I find quite interesting is, If your up to it, and are able to work in an online environment, and have your own studio facilities, you can hire a lot of good musicians for $50 to $100 a track. Some of these are the very same musicians that play with big names like Brooks and Dunn, George Strait, Tim McGraw,and a number of others. Many are the same studio musicians Marc talked about making a couple hundred dollars for 3 hours work, looking to make a few extra bucks until the music industry recovers from it's current struggle, if it ever does. Seems the lack of work in studios, and an ever decreasing road show schedule, has many very good musicians looking to the internet to provide an income in sparse times. An industry in decline, independent projects on the increase, free music on the internet, all have contributed to some fantastic musicians looking for work on the internet. They work on a pay per track basis, and for a lot less than they get when they work in local studios at scale.

Where do you find them? Almost any social networking platform, such as Facebook, Myspace, and the rest, and in online music collaboration sites across the internet.

Ahhh the internet, weather you look at it as the axis of all evil to come,or the Tool for leveling the playing field, it is a prime example of "If you build it, they will come.".

Sometimes you can find local musicians through a local music store. Here in Lincoln, all of the salespersons at Guitar Center are musicians and are knowledgable of who is available.

Tom

Now there's a resource worth writing down, and it's revalations like that that make this place so wonderful, thank you Tom, I would have never thoguht of that.

Oooh...I don't know that I'd trust a sales weasel...er guy...from GC to recommend a musician. Maybe they're better outside of L.A., but here the turnover in sales people there is about every three months. Too many work there to get the big employee discount; buy a bunch of gear, then move on.

I find many musicians by going to the clubs and hearing them perform - or at least hearing anything they have posted on the web like on myspace, etc. We also have www.musicconnection.com in L.A. with a "pro player" section.

I've found a few gems through the Musicians Union (such as a local steel guitar player), Musicians Contact Service (http://www.musicianscontact.com/), and some interesting young players at Musicians Institute (http://www.mi.edu/). However, this is for finding local musicians only, not Internet musicians.

Another way is to approach local college students studying music. We have a couple of specialist music schools here and most of these guys can really play especially orchestral instruments. Although classically trained they can turn their hand to most things and relish the challenge and experience. As students they are grateful for a few quid into the bargain.

Big Jim, this is off topic but I will ask anyway. Is a quid the same as a pound?

Tom

A squid is a guy in the navy.

You call money a buck we call it a quid. LOL