JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum What does it take to keep your spot in the music industry?

There are tons of artists coming out every single day, one outshines the other and so on. Some managed to stay for a very long period of time, many others don't. What does it take to keep your spot in the music industry?

Luck and a million other things totally out of your hands as an artist or writer.

The bottom line is a bottom line. For the artist, writer, publisher, producer, record company etc. And the one thing that cannot be manipulated is fan response. At the end of the day, the customer is always right.

Throughout history there have been millions of stories. Songs, artists, industry people that deserved better and it didn't happen. And millions of other songs, artists, industry people, that seemingly were clueless, jerks, non-talented, etc. and seem to have everything roll out on a silver platter.

The latter more than likely end up as the dregs of humanity, begging money on street corners and telling of how things were "back in their day" and blaming other's for their problems.

It is a strange business and the closest it can be compared to is Hollywood and the entire acting business. Struggle forever in obscurity, then a lightning flash and they are on top of the world, only to be derailed by one bad decision.

It is the nature of the beast. There is no formula and no secret. Everyone does pretty much the exact same thing. In the end the public decides.

MAB

eksi,

Welcome to JPF, thanks for posting.

The best thing we can do is to focus on making the best music we possibly can.

Think about the basics of music. There are four components to music: Pitch, Tone, Volume, and Duration. Think about all four. A lot of bass players, for example, ignore parts of duration. They'll play in time, with good attack, but forget about release. Every note will die into the next note's attack. Varying the release of the note can do a lot to the groove.

Guitar players will often ignore volume (huh, what did you say?) they have one volume...loud...and do not have variation. Pitch is a lot more than just being "in tune."

A note can be ended with a slight raise or lowering in pitch, giving different character.

Then, there's the forgotten component, tone. Many musicians just get whatever tone came in the box. They plug in the box then plug the box in the amp, step on the switch and there's the tone. A friend of mine just did a major Hollywood film. He said the composer/director considered tone to be the most important element to a film score.

So there are four basic things that you can spend your whole life perfecting only to find yourself tearing it all down and starting again from scratch every now and then. Making the best music you can make is the most effective tool you have to create some sort of dent in the immovable object we call the music biz.

Also, I recommend having a lot of fun. Keep us posted.

All the Best,
Mike

to: Marc Barnette and Mike Dunbar, thank youu for the wonderful insights. Funny thing is that i'm afraid to lose something i haven't achieved yet! This is why i'm not out there to take my spot. Thanks to you my spirit is back up! I will do my thing and have fun! Thank you!

Eski,

Most people trying to do music are always putting the cart before the horse. Do four things if you want to be in this business:

#1 Create unique songs that stand out among all the others around you Make people want to physically take you and your songs to places you can't go yourself.

#2 Present your songs and yourself.
Perform well and often or have someone perform your songs often.
Have well done recordings of those those songs.

#3 Network as much as you can. On pages like these, through your continuous efforts, making as many friends as you can along the way. Always be around people who know more than you.

#4 Business. Understand how money is made through music. What the various roles of ASCAP, BMI, publishers, co-writers, managers, artists, writers, producers, agents, etc. Understand what they all do and how they benefit.

If you are going to particpate in any way, you have to understand what effects other people and how.

MAB

Thank you! i'll keep your pointer in mind and start to live by it!

Work your ass off every waking minute! {And Network, Network, Network!}

Huh ? You have a spot ? Where is it, and I'll put in a takeover bid.

Just kidding. Good advice. I can't really add anything extra.

cheers, niteshift

I've been keeping my spot here at the bottom of the music industry with no effort at all.

I wonder if a lot of it is, as one poster put it, timing; that is, being in the right place at the right time. Would Elvis Presley have risen to legend status had he come along either ten years earlier or ten years later than he did? It is doubtful, yet his career rejuvenated some fiften years past his original heyday with songs such as "Suspicious Minds" and "Burning Love". What aboud disco? Would that take off as much in this time, for example? With the exception of the Bee Gees and Donna Summer, most disco acts were one-hit wonders sent to oblivion after their major hit.

A lot of it is plain old luck, just like the lottery. However, you do improve your chances by buying more tickets.

The tickets are talent, work, sales and passion. One musician may not have them all. One may be lacking on sales, for example. Then you depend on your team. Build a team. Have a group of advisers who will never be afraid to say "no" to you (unless you don't mind dying or burning out at a young age from drugs, booze, debauchery, gambling etc...think Elvis or MJ.)

Mostly I stress examining your motives. If you are in it to get rich or to become famous, then stop right now. It's ok to want those as additional perks, but if you ain't in it for the love of music, then the two worse things that can happen is that you'll either fail or succeed.

Love it.

Have fun.

Beechnut,

It is so many things you can't even compile all of them. Why did Elvis take off when Carl Perkins was doing almost the exact same thing? What would have happened if Jerry Lee Lewis had not self destructed? I find about 90% of songwriter and artists wounds are self inflicted. And there are always deeper reasons for it than just one thing. Right place in the right time is a huge part of it.
It is actually the rule rather than the exception for the short term overnight one hit wonder success. That is the regular thing and about 95% of what the music business has always been.
The exceptions are the Elvis or MJ that exploded. But also remember that during the late 70's until Off the Wall came out, MJ had his own troubles of the overgrown child star.
Something happens with the public sometimes that is simply magic. And billions of dollars of promotion money are spent on artists, songs, writers that never go anywhere. Again, the customer is the ultimate arbiter of success.

MAB

I have a liver "spot" that's growing larger by the day!

Best of show!

But if you ARE in it to become rich and famous, you need to be ASTOUNDING. Not just great. Astounding. And that needs to also apply to your work ethic, your networking skills, your luck, your fanbase, and your willingness to sacrifice the comforts of home, stability, and normality. You have to be a force of nature.

On the other hand, if your goals are less lofty, there are plenty of gratifying opportunities still to be had through writing, playing and performing music...so long as you keep your day job. It's always been like that.

Lots of drugs, anguish and broken relationships among the rich and famous...I wonder if it's really as desirable as we imagine. What would it be like if you couldn't go anywhere without wearing a disguise?

But anyone going for the brass ring of fortune and fame needs to work like Hercules and have undeniable appeal. Otherwise, maybe re-think the goal.

Mark,

As usual not only your name but your brain shows it's amazing intelect. And I would add one more caveat to your astounding logic. They need to be ASTOUNDING all the time. One thing every performer has to deal with is the night no one shows up. The night you are playing for a truckers convention trying to pick up trucker women. Playing on a friend's boat with no PA or anything. You have to be astounding all the time.
It is demoralizing with most of the stuff we have to do. We are rarely the featured performers on some great big show, most are small things building one fan at a time. I am around performers all the time that feel like everything has to be "perfect" to do anything. People paying attention, rapt attention on your every line.
Try standing up in a coffee shop doing battle with the scream of the latte' machine or the blender going off during your wonderful love ballad. You better be entertaining or you are dead.
That is what being astounding is all about. Could not agree with you more, my brilliant very young collegue. Good to hear from you always.

MAB

I have a spot? I have a spot? Where?!

I thought I was spotless. I thought I didn't leave a spot untouched. I thought I wasn't spot-on this music thing. And here I had a spot to keep!

I'm on it,,,,looking for my spot. Thanks! I'll let you know how to keep it when I find that out myself.



John

I loved that response Mike. First, love your craft. Second perfect it if you can. Third, keep your antenna tuned to opportunities. You might make it, you might not. Just enjoy the ride. Music is magic on a lot of levels.

I LOVE this! I'm real new to this singer/songwriter thing and am just starting to venture outside of my living room. I'm scared and excited and ready to start having some fun with it 'cause I already LOVE it!
yerz, Ellen
by-the-way: good thread!

"What does it take to keep your spot in the music industry?"-Eksi

The disturbing part is thinking I've already got my spot. Feed me the scraps!

Scrapper John

Since I created my own "spot" in the music industry and continue to maintain it while exploring additional spots... I'd say there's already some great advice posted here.

I would add: learn your craft, and continue to learn your craft, and continue to hone your craft, and be open to feedback, be passionate about growing beyond where you are. Consider life-long learning to be part of your investment in your musical career.

And perhaps I'd add: be yourself. In all the things I do, I try to just be... myself. That's really all I have to "sell".

And perhaps I'd add one more: altho your music is precious to you, when you send it out into the world it may or may not fit the wants of the industry for whatever reason. Check your attitude at the door. It's important to learn to be emotionally detached from your work so you remain open to learning and make effective choices.

HI
I checked your tunes. Very raw but good. I really liked Hurricane. Reminded me of early Buffie Saint Marie. Keep it simple.
Sam

Well since your talking about ARTISTS who are in the industry and have a spot to try and keep.

1- Someone will push you out. This has to happen sooner or later as times change.
The great Les Paul & Mary Ford, Bing Crosby and others were pushed out
by ELVIS and the birth of Rock N Roll. Disco was pushed out by punk & new wave.
Something or somebody now needs to push Hip Hop & Nickelback bandsout lol...
As an artist you can either come apart yourself personally or have manager or label problems.

2- The best way to keep your spot -
Well you would think versatility and DEEP talent would secure that,but not in this decade. Without someone else pushing the artists to raise there game (if they can)
It can be kind of a pretty safe place for most of these chart toppers. Britany can't even make herself disappear no matter how hard she tried.
Like I said look at Nickelback or Three Doors Down in Rock. They both had excellent breakthrough songs then one weaker thing after another for a whole decade now.
And still they do well, the labels put this same sounding songs and CD's out one after another.

In the past CHANGE is what would keep you in the game and kept your spot.

Queen - GREAT rock band should have been GONE by the 80's but instead they lay down "Another One Bites The Dust" And a few others and sit at the top of the charts.
Bowie, same thing. The Stones did it. Madonna was great at it..
The Bee Gee's keep there sound and style and they are done in the 60's early 70's
Instead they re-invent themselves and have there biggest success in 1977
Areosmith did it (painfully) lol through soundtracks
Rod Stewart did it, Santana did it....Clapton does it.

Why? Yes usually the best (talent) and or the smartest as in Madonna's case pull this off.

Mike,

Great comments. Reality. Hope your health is well. I am pretty sure you are still in pain. I think about you a bit from time to time. You are one of my favorite people to see on these pages. Always very insightful and well laid out. That is really amazing that you can do that while dealing with health issues. You have all my respect sir.

MAB

MAB,

You should see Mike in action in the studio when he is working his stuff out like no other, while in severe discomfort. Music helps while the adrenaline is going. But after ten hours, and he is STILL on top of his and everyone's game?! Well, if you saw Mike as I have seen him many times over the past two years, you would think about him more than a bit! He is extremely passionate, inspiring, and one of the most all around music educated and great people to know.

If it wasn't for his love of music, (listening, playing, producing, thinking about it, etc, etc,,,,,I'd hate to think.

If ever up near Staten Island, give him a visit. You won't forget, or regret it.

John

John,

I do hope to meet him some day. I only know him in passing from here and his thoughts and writings. But I am sure he is touching lives even through is problems. That is the best thing you can do.

MAB

Absolutely MAB!

And, Mike should get an honorary Grammy, JPF award, and any other music organization award for doing just that,,,,touching lives. (If that is the best thing we can do).....

There would be many supporters, for sure.

Can't wait for you being my voucher! You'll both be like kids in a candy store. So much to take in. All good!


Heading up next week I think, to do some piano track he's been talking about wanting me to "kill".
Not sure what it is,,,,,and I like to be surprised, so I hope I can at least lay something down for him that will stay on that track. But the point here being, with him being him, he will pull that track out of me, one way or another. He's just so inspiring and seems to get the best out of folks when there. I swear I always feel worse at the end of a long session,,,then I think of all he has wrong, and man! I then know who the intense, passionate one really is. He would outlast Rocky if a fighter, and then smile at him and say,,,"lets go get a pie"! (Pizza)

John

John,

That is very cool. Thanks for letting me know that. I like him even more now.
The best people inspire others through any problems they might have. Great that he has you.

Appreciate it. And you now have my

"OFFICIAL VOUCH!!!!"

MAB

You're welcome!

Mike has some teaching videos up on these boards to get but a hint of him in action. Really cool for anyone to watch.

Not Official yet though...."Must See Sub" in person to get the other 80%. But, I like "your" enthusiasm!

Whenever time and will permits, think about doing a one song demo with him there. Would be like a vacation with going to an interaction music museum type of thing! You would be in for a very cool, and intense ride.

Clive Davis picked him out of a big showcase at 19, while in his band. Sub was dedicated to his band mates he already had been friends with, so they did a few less major things with other labels before time had band members going other places anyway. He then ending up at Sony Records, (with a number one dance hit with "The Daou", (Billbaord), and as a session player for Sony, (bass and guitar), for albums with Michael Jackson, Celine Dion, Gloria Estefan, to name a few).

But, you should see and hear him on drums,,,A Monster!

I wish I could think about myself in those ways and talents, just to be close in any department that Mike possess.

He inspires me to keep trying though.

Take care MAB! Going to my daughters for a few days as she's about to give birth to her second son, within 20 hours from now.

John,
Pop Pop Again! (The 4th time through arrival by birth. The 6th in total)!

Man! You're getting old!

John,

I will always keep Mike in mind. I am sort of partnered with a studio in Nashville, Jay's Place, studios on 17th. We have been working together for ten years so I am kind of loyal there. But will always be glad to refer him if I can.

MAB

Hi Marc

Thanks a bunch man, I appreciate it greatly. Yes I'm in pain but what really wrecks my every waking hour is the vertigo.
You just can't Rocky through that [naughty word removed] man

Okay there's some more insight lol... Who do you know who talks like that? lol

I for one respect and admire your willingness to help others and your vast experience,persistence and general attitude. Especially where your coming from.
What many people don't realize is you're like this calm nice guy in this nice town called Nashville.. Meanwhile you're also this guy in the most brutally competitive,dream devouring musical madhouse on the planet LOL...

That is why most of your comments come from the angle and direction they do.
So it's very insightful and helpful too many. If I were healthy I would come down and take your tour.
I'm so nuts my focus is kinda all over the place so I'm always over thinking or actually over feeling. I remember once we had a thread and we were discussing how useless CD's were and how it was no big deal to anyone that they would be gone.
My first reaction was to look up at the right hand corner of this site and see DiscMakers logo... Then all the other people that have anything to do with discs losing there jobs. This is just how I think regardless of what's better or not better.

So sometimes I use a more cynical or in your face slightly crazy approach to making a point. As sweet as I am (so I'm always told) I find smacking somebody a little gets and really keeps there attention. To avoid mistakes and hurting themselves.

I have very strong feelings for a number of people here and I watch out for them whether they like it or not lol... I am a lifetime New Yorker and all Italian so nobody
I mean nobody on the planet fools me lol

Marc ya know what i call John Daubert?

Colonel Troutman! That's the general in the Rambo movies lol...
All the guys does is PUMP up Rambo. He sells him to the people so before he evn shows up there scared out of there minds lol..

That is what we need in this business.... Someone to walk into a room and have the people wanting to sign you before they even heard one note...
Who wakes up in the morning and puts YOU before themselves. NOBODY!
Accept for MOMS and The Colonel lol...

John Colonel Troutman

Thanks man now I'm not only tipping all over this room I'm blushing all over it too. lol

Ya know what's funny and I was just telling Scott this recently. For me I always get in the door one way and up another. I thank God for being blessed with being "musical"
Having multi skills and feels are a wonderful thing but... again here we go ( too much thinking) they get me off track many times.

My SONGS are what usually gets me in the door many times. Perfect example a friend give my song to this guy Ron A. Ron A signed, Chicago,Heart, Boston, EWF,Michael Jackson, and his big record was the loveable "Wildfire" that was his boy.

Ron and I meet and he is at first trying to have a singer he was interested in do some of my songs. Then he comes to my house and finds out that I personally produced, recorded and performed on the work I gave him.
He has this young artist in Florida that he's setting up. He has this guy come to NY
He takes him to a 3 million dollar studio to meet the producer there. Then he takes him to my house. Ron later calls me and says "I want YOU to produce this kid"
I said well I would advise you take him into a real pro studio set up.. He replies "No he wants to work with you"

So we start.. Ron says to the kid hey this song MIke's got I love it. do you want it?"
The kid says
No I really only do my own songs, I feel funny etc...etc... So there goes my song.

I start to produce 5 songs for his record, I'm nervous as heck because I'm gonna be handing the work over to this guy named Shelly, Shelly did Lennon, BOC Don't Fear The Reeper" Schools Out Alice Cooper...

So now I'm the producer and musician on this project. I'm hiring guys to come in, figuring out how to transfer files form this to that etc...
Eventually the whole thing goes to pieces and nothing becomes of it.. but we did finish the CD. There were 3 other producers involved I was very proud that my track
made it to the radio... And also that we did a better mixing job than the 3 million dollar place did.... Way better! The difference - CARING!

Anyway geez what happened to the first thing we talked about - My song!

People by nature will take from you what "they need most" I was very happy to turn producer and come in another door yet another way. But my own advantages for opportunity took away from my own opportunity...

Once in a while not knowing what a knob does can help your song-writing career

Thanks John you're the best.. Can't wait to push you to the max on this new instrumental I have brewing. It's taking me a while to get it going
1- I can't sit up straight long enough with out getting dizzy

2- I wasn't good enough to play my own song,but I remedied that!

Hey Mike,

Great to hear from you. Have enjoyed this conversation about you. Like I did tell you, I went through something called "Labrynthinitus" a few times over the years,which were vertigo, extreme nausea, like the worst seasikness imaginable. Can't imagine living with that every day. God love you.
Sounds like you still reach out to many other people. That is amazing.

My calling came through a lot of odd twists and turns. I had a staff writing deal, was a very hot entity in Nashville, always out performing, at one time one of the top ten draws in town. Had some cuts but never singles, and was writing with just about every one.
Then one company ran out of money and another offered me a deal which was torpedoed by a well intentioned but misguided lawyer when I was out of town. It devistated me and destroyed some contacts and business relationships I had taken years to build.
That is when people started coming to me. And every thing I do, from workshops, seminars, tours, writing, teaching, are all from people asking me to do it. So the fact that I am so "calm" is simply from not being too wrapped up in the business. While I do teach about the principals, processes, networking and business aspects of Nashville, I really don't have a "dog' in the hunt. I work with people who are trying to make their journey, but I am not too tied into any one thing.
Always good to hear from you.

MAB

Hiya Eski!

Hmmm..First, You GET a Spot..heh!

Then, for the Longevity Part, I'd say ya need Good Management..& then the Ability to Re-Invent Yourself..repeatedly..a la say Eric Clapton, Madonna, Cher, etc. etc.

Elvis probably surpassed Carl Perkins because he had Colonel Parker pushin' E's career.

Management's probably not as-important as the Re-Inventing Aspect..tho. I once had the good fortune to do lunch in L.A. with "Bullets" Durgom, famed manager of Jackie Gleason, Sammy Davis, Marilyn Monroe, etc. "Bullets" was after a replacement artist for Jim Stafford, who'd just lost his Label Deal (Drugs/Chix, I assume) & didn't have a good word to say about his artist the whole lunch long. (My bein' from Florida probably was why I was invited..tho I was just STARTIN' to pen a few songs/wasn't yet Up-to-Speed.)

Years later, I was in Branson & saw Jim Stafford's Show/Met the guy backstage too. He's got the 2nd biggest theater there, right across from ol' Andy Williams'; married late-in-life, is NOW a total Family Man/"couldn't visit long, so he could get home to his wife-&-kids." Quite a Transformation from his "Spiders & Snakes" Days...&...he's REAL Successful where he's ended up.

Bottom Line: You probably WON'T stay at the Top of The Charts for TOO many years...but...you CAN carve out a Niche & hang in there for a Lifetime..if ya love what you're doing/continue to do it well/and hopefully surround yourself with Positive, Loyal People.

Good Luck at it!
Big Hugs,
Stan