JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum That's My Idea!!!!

Doesn't it make you mad when you hear a song on the radio and go, "Hey! That's my idea!". Perfect example....a few years back I was sitting in the stands at the San Antonio Livestock Show and Rodeo, and out of nowhere I told my cousin, "I'm going to write a song called "Cowgirls Don't Cry"." Well, I got home and did a little of this and that, then a few weeks went by and I kept telling myself I was going to write that song. A couple of years go by, still haven't written that song. Turn on the radio one day and BOOM...I hear Brooks and Dunn singing that song. I sigh, cuss a little, and try to keep my car between the mayonaise and mustard. Just wondered how many other people this has happened to, and to what songs!

Daneille,

It gets a lot worse than that. The "Cowgirls don't cry" is a song idea that goes back to the thirties with Texas swing music. You will find that almost everything has been written many times before. If you ever do a "Google search" or ASCAP, BMI, and you will find your title prop of hundreds of times. And those are just the ones registered. It is why so much money is wasted on copyrights. You cannot copyright a title or idea.
In Nashville there are around 500 songs written a day with around 250,000 a year coming into the town. So if you can think of it, most times other people think of it too. Especially when there is something that enters the "public conciousness", events like 9-11 or commericals or lines in movies, those are all written ad naseum thousands of times.
My job is as a teacher of writers and career coach for artists and writers in Nashville. It never fails that people come to town thinking they have a song that no one has ever thought of only to find out it has been written hundreds of times. I recently had a guy from Canada hear his song that he thought was so unique only to hear it performed by other writers four times in the space of three days on writers nights. Not only the same idea but the same exact lines.
It is not the title or subject matter but the "twist on the tale" of the song. The language, the melodies, etc.Do song search and pay attention to the different ways writers take the song, the different "Elbow moments" in a song.
Anyone could say, "I want to make this like the last day of my life, I hope I can make this one count." But Craig Wiseman and Tim Nichols can say "I went sky diving, Rocky Mountain climbing, two point seven seconds on a bull named Fu Manchu." That is the difference. And in this era of very short attention spans, those are needed more and more.
As one who has had 13 experiences in the past five years, just like yours, the thing you do is just write more songs. It's the nature of the beast. Say the same thing, differently.

MAB

LOL - I can relate.

A friend and I were in a movie theater waiting for a movie to start. We got on the subject of books and how he was thinking of writing one. He asked me if I ever had the urge to and I told him that, as a matter of fact, I had an idea for a novel. Actually, I had it plotted out pretty well in my mind. I was just about to tell him the plot when the trailers started.

The first trailer was for a movie that was EXACTLY my idea. Talk about timing!

I wish I had told him the plot - then he would have thought that I was playing a joke on him but he wouldn't be able to figure out how I did it.

Another time I had an idea for some learning software that I thought would fill a nice niche. Even a cool name came to me. Then I googled it and found that there was not only software of the same name, it did the same thing.

Six billion people on the planet - it's hard to have an original idea. Doesn't mean that you can't have an original take on an old idea though.

Scott

Scott,

It happens all the time. My most recent example was with a song called "My Wish." I wrote it in 2000 for songwriters that I closed out my workshops with. Kind of a touchy feely song with the main theme:

My Wish for you is Faith
My Wish for you is Hope
When Life can bring you down
There's a place for you to go
Always try to bring a smile
A laugh, a touch a rose,
There's somebody just like me, who loves you,
And I just wanted you to know.

I played it at the close of every show and workshop. Kind of my "Awww" moment. One of the guys I played a lot of shows with was a little known Nashville writer named Jeffery Steele. Jeff has written about half of the biggest hits in country over the past 10 years and is a pretty good friend of mine. We are both left handed and have hung out a bit.

About a year ago I started getting congratulatory e-mails and phone calls on my new Rascal Flatts hit, "My Wish." I wasn't aware I had a new Rascal Flatts cut. But Jeffery Steele did. now some people would start jumping up and down and screaming. I didn't because I know Jeff didn't any more steal my song than the man in the moon and neither of us were the first to use that title or idea. He wrote his for his daughter's wedding.

All it did was make mine inaffective. That is what the business is. You write more songs and move on.Happens every day.

MAB

Heh... weezer and deathcab both have songs that Follow almost to the letter a song I wrote in 1986.Filing infringement doesn't sit right with me though.It's all given to us.

Happens all the time. Are you sure you didn't subconcisely pick up something? I have found myself doing that PLENTY of times. In Nashville where you hear a thousand songs every few days, it is very easy to subconsiously pick things up.
I was even writing with a number one songwriter one time and we wrote a pretty cool song. we were about ready to demo it and about two days later he calls me and says "Man, we have to stop that one now.' There was another one out JUST like it. Particularly if there are songs that are many years back. I constantly get someone in Nashville doing one of my workshops that have a song that is exactly like some big hit back in the years gone by. You say something to them and they FREAK! they didn;t even think of it. And once you mention it they realize it and feel pretty dumb.
There are only 12 notes and only so many ways to say "I love you." So you are going to overlap. It is like that Richard Dryfuss line from the original "Jaw's movie." "A shark is attracted to the specific type of sound a swimmer makes when they go into the water. You cannot avoid it."
"A songwriter is attracted to the EXACT sound of music they are attracted to. and their are only so many notes. You cannot avoid it."

MAB

I'm glad somebody brought this up. I've had and still have some lyrics I wrote that have the same or similar titles to old songs. I've been told-Change that, it's already been used. The title had been but not the concept or the way "I" expressed it. My point is, when do we take this too far and not write what we are inspired by?
Just wondering. Thanks.
Patti

Patti,

No.You always write what you feel and what makes you happy. But if you are trying to get attention from the industry you are going to have to keep it in context. Let me give you an example.

After 9-11, the entire creative world went to writing. I did mine on the Saturday. Everybody in Nashville had one and we all did them for a few months. Then Alan Jackson came out with his, Toby Keith came out with his, Darryl Worely, the Dixie Chicks started all their stuff, and everything kind of went, "Okay that is enough." And it was on to the next subject.

Pretty much every idea, title, subject matter has been done over and over again. If it turns out melodically similar to something else, change it. If it is too similar lyrically, change that too. You have to try to keep it familiar, but you are going to have to change your's to avoid a "Been there, done that" reaction. Which happens all the time, trust me.

Basically you have to look at everyone, from publishers, to pluggers, to producers, to artists, to the general public, EVERYBODY is looking for a reason to tune you out. Because they have other songs, artists, competing interests, etc. you are competing with. Have you ever heard the line about the difference between men and women when it comes to TV watching? "Women watch what is on, men watch what ELSE is on."

We have radically short attention spans. In the general public, the primary focus of all music providers is drive time. That is between the hours of 7:00 to nine in the morning, and 3:00 to 6:00 in the afternoon. The audience is 70% women, age 18 to 45 in the country market. They are listening basically for local news, traffic and weather. Music is part of that, but not the main reason they listen. And anyone whoever has sat in traffic realize they are not in a good mood.

So our job is to get and keep their attention and everybody down that line, artists, producers, record labels, distributers, retail, etc. are all primarily interested in that end result. no interest in the songs, no listening to commercials on the radio station. No listening to the commercials, no buying products or shopping at that certain store. No shopping or buying products, no commerce for those products. No commerce for those products, no more advertising revenue. No more advertising revenue, no more radio.
So it is a continually developing cycle. And if you don't start with a fresh take on an idea, or at least try to separate your song from the others just like it, you are not getting in the cycle.
I hope this has helped and not made it more confusing.

MAB

I agree with you Marc Everything has been said already You just have to find new ways to say it I always think my ideas are new and a lot of them are I am just not in the right place to get it done musically Here is one about love that is different Or a song about trying to change someone Not an original idea Here is a lyric A tree is a tree To all keep writing Turtle
Just words
Chorus
Honey I say I love you
But they are just words
Baby I say I need you
The words you already heard
Darling I say I want you
Each and every day
But I’ll always love you
With more than words I say

I need to spend
Everyday with you
To show my love
And that my words are true
I want to kiss
And hold you tight
The words I say
Are not for one night


Chorus
Honey I say I love you
But they are just words
Baby I say I need you
The words you already heard
Darling I say I want you
Each and every day
But I’ll always love you
With more than words I say

I want to help you
Be all that you can
My actions will show
That I’m your loving man
You will always be
In my thoughts and dreams
My love flows
Like an endless stream

Chorus
Honey I say I love you
But they are just words
Baby I say I need you
The words you already heard
Darling I say I want you
Each and every day
But I’ll always love you
With more than words I say

I will always love you
That was Gods plan
We will be together
Like the oceans and the sands
The change of seasons
Will have come and gone
You will always be the melody
To my love song

Chorus
Honey I say I love you
But they are just words
Baby I say I need you
The words you already heard
Darling I say I want you
Each and every day
But I’ll always love you
With more than words I say

Every moment that passes by
You’ll know my love
By the look in my eyes
I will always be your loving guy
Not with just words
Till the day I die


Chorus
Honey I say I love you
But they are just words
Baby I say I need you
The words you already heard
Darling I say I want you
Each and every day
But I’ll always love you
With more than words I say


Category: Life
A Tree is a tree.

You want to change me
After all these years
I can only be
As my nature is

A work in progress
I'm not that guy
No you can't sculpt me
As you see it in your eye

Chorus
You see a tree
Is supposed to be a tree
Flowers can't grow
From a tumbleweed
You don't see honey
Coming from a lemon tree
But you're squeezing baby
The honey out of me

I don't need a makeover
Like the house you buy
I won't take commands
Like a military guy

Some things in life
Just won't change
Things are meant to be
The way their made


Chorus
You see a tree
Is supposed to be a tree
Flowers can't grow
From a tumbleweed
You don't see honey
Coming from a lemon tree
But you're squeezing baby
The honey out of me
©Timothy A Davis 2007

Thanks Marc. Gotcha!
Patti

"Happens all the time. Are you sure you didn't subconcisely pick up something? I have found myself doing that PLENTY of times. In Nashville where you hear a thousand songs every few days, it is very easy to subconsiously pick things up."

I think that those people in those bands were not even in highschool yet when I wrote that song....so....no,I didnt pick it up.although I hear so many old school hits now days its mind boggling.

When I registered "Goin' Back To New Orleans" with the Library of Congress (LOC) I got my registration form back, and wanted to see if it came up in a search of the LOC website. About five of them came up.

I don't worry about that. Can anyone reading this sing any of those other songs by that title?

Odds are, unless the title you're 'recycling' is truly unique (Wildwood Flower, Ring of Fire, Like A Virgin, Eleanor Rigby), and fairly recent, and yours is delivered in a similar lyrical and/or melodic treatment, few people would take issue with it, especially if yours is good.

Thanks Gary and glad to hear from you.
Patti

Hmmm, a deep one..literally. You are the sum of your experiences. Sometimes those songs just come "out of the ether" (who already said that??)...it's as if the tune makes itself, and you are just a bystander. You work, but it builds and comes so naturally, it doesnt seem like it is the act of writing.

OK, you are the sum of your experiences--the inspiration is usually derived from something else to some extent. I sometimes realize I start working from another tune, or beat--but i make it my own. It becomes unique. Whats crappy is when a song is written (think POP NOW) with the intent to sound like another song. Its artificial (although, yes it works for success too sometimes). You have to fall back to the subconsious, not the counsious. Has anyone written about this before???

I have had it happen to me on a couple of different occasions. One was a song I had started called damned if I do damned if I don't. I had been working on it for a couple of years and never finished it, but had let some folks hear what I had. One day I heard the song on a local radio station and said hey that is my song! The verses were a little different, but the chorus was a word for word match. It wasn't that good anyway, so I never even tried to find out who the artist was. I just trashed mine and went on.

Marc,
Just wanted to say I enjoyed reading your post. Thanks for sharing.

About a year ago I got a Co-Write on JPFer Chuck Crowe's CD, a Song titled "It's All Been Done Before"..and about a month ago I walk into the local Wal-Mart & the Muzak's playing the SAME Title, different Lyrics & Artist. Pure Irony, eh?

At least OURS had the line "But nobody's done it Better" in it!

&..heh...that's Your Challenge...to DO it better..'cuz there are a LOT of Writers out there, & not ALL that many "Great New Ideas" popping up that grab a Mainsteam Audience. (& if ya use a Cliche Phrase for your Hook, be prepared to be the 10th-or-more writer to come up with that title.)

Best Wishes/Good Luck,
Stan

Hey guys,

Just been going back over a few of these and wanted to mention something else. Today is my 51st birthday so I am taking a day off from moving and reviewing a bunch of old crap of mine that I used to call songs. I now call them "Dumpster contents!"

Since these posts attract a lot of newer people who might know me or others I wanted to just mention that I am a teacher of songwriting workshops and I teach writing and the music business in Nashville. When I see threads like this they often relate to issues that come up all the time and usually there are a few first hand stories I have of people and this stuff. If you have heard some of them before or they are too long, just ignore me or fast forward past them.

This one involves two songs that were virtually identical but totally unrelated. I perform regularly at a club in Florida called the "Florabama Lounge." It is a authentic American Roadhouse, on the Fla. Alabama state line. It is very popular and increased so since we do a ten day songwriters festival in that area each November.
One of the regular writers at the Bama, was a guy named Rusty McCue. Rusty was a GREAT comedian, and wrote songs that would be WAY too dirty for general consumption, but was Great for afternoon patrons at the Bama, from Little Blue Haired ladies, to hardened bikers and everything in between. One of the songs he had written about 8 years ago was called "Tequila makes my Clothes Fall off." It was hilarious and a VERY unique title. People would sing every word, but once again, nothing you would ever hear on the radio or actually much past that area.
About four years ago, two friends of mine, Gary Hannan, and John Wiggans, were drinking in the afternoon and Gary said that exact phrase. John said they should write it and Gary said that it was a common phrase in South Africa where he grew up. He was a mercenary soldier in Rodesia in the 80's and that phrase and been said many years before that, actually dating back to the 1950's. He thought it had to have been written.
But John was insistant and the next day they wrote the song which ended up being a number one for Joe Nichols. They had never heard Rusty's original song.
That began a sore spot which lasts to this day. Rusty passed away from Cancer four years ago and of course the people in that area, his friends and family, swear it was stolen. But I can tell you it wasn't. Just another expample of similar ideas being out there all the time, even with unique ideas.
There are a lot of people on this planet. And a lot of people that write songs. It is going to happen no matter what. Just write em' good and try to get them out there. About all you can do. just hope you are first.

MAB

Happy Birthday Marc!

Thanks much. Another day older.

MAB

Happy Birthday!!! I have one coming up too soon, at the end of August. I will be 50. Been dreading that one...lol. Hopefully the next 50 will be good to me. I sure hope the next 51 will be good to you and I hope you have a great day today!

Charles

Happy birthday Marc, you're only a young gaffer yet.

Thanks guys,

Yes, as I now ride into the twilght sunset of life and feel the icy hand of death on my shoulder, I shall think fondly of those I leave behind at the convenient store of life. Buying cigarettes and beer! LOL!

MAB

MArc

Happy birthday. ITs better late than never. HEy your next 51 will be on 2059. Dont worry Im still there when you reach that age.

Lynman

Lyman,

I'll be down in Cebu City eating some baluts with you! LOL!

MAB

LOL!

Don't forget the Lotto tickets too!

Happy B-Day, Marc

Scott

Happy Birthday Marc!!!! You old fart.

Sorry I missed you Sunday, after the NAMM show, I went to my daughter's baby shower. Grandpa Mike. Another old fart.

Blow the candles out with a song!

Mike

Mike,

I didn't do anything Saturday night. Was so wiped out from my moving I couldn't do anything. Girlfriend took me to Ruth Chris's.

Hope to see you soon.

MAB

sorry Marc,
Missed this BD note. Happy belated birthday. I have one next month too. Just decided to not think about it. Lol. Honestly, thanks for all your advice.

there's millions of ideas out there. several songwriters are likely to find or think of the same idea. Also the easier an idea is to find the more likely many songwriters have found it.

Like if a popular movie has a line or lines likely to inspire a song. Writers are likely to write them.

Like Jerry Maguire
"You had me at hello"

Also if there's some sort of major world event, songwriters are likely to write songs in reaction to them. Which is why I prefer to find ideas in obscure places instaed of obvious ones.

The fact is "Cowgirls Don't Cry" is not a song idea, it's a song title.

Every song is dependent not only on the hook-line (or my coinage, the "icon phrase," which is where a phrase of music and lyric come together in a natural marriage) but also on a concept (or idea) to flesh out and reinforce that hook.

Many incredible songs are based on fairly mundane titles like "What Was I Thinkin'" or "Just Once" -- but, because the writers have set these hooks in a high-concept setting, the titles take on special meaning and a charged emotion for the listener. (Now you may have had an incredible slant on your title, but I'm just sayin'...)

That's why I think the song concept (or idea) is much more important than the hook or title, because the unique point of view, characters, story and ambience of the lyric is what sets one song above another. That's not to say that a great title can't be important. A great, clever, or heart-wrenching hook is gold -- and, we need to jump on those words when the muse puts 'em in our heads, because it's more than likely other writers out there are hearing the same inspirations (or at least something similar).

I remember congratulating fellow writer Darryl Burgess on the success of Diamond Rio's "Beautiful Mess" -- I knew that Darryl had written a song of that title, so I assumed the hit was his... However, it wasn't his song after all. As it turned out, there were at least three (possible four) songs by established Music Row writers with that same title. It was the Sonny Lamaire, Clay Mills version of that wonderful idea that became the huge copyright -- thus killing off any chance of the other several songs ever achieving success.

So, whether or not you take action on a great "idea" (as you put it), there is always the chance that another writer will get there before you and have the success. That also happened to several writers I know who had similar titles to my Toby Keith hit, "My List." More than a few have approached me over the years to say they had a song called "The List," or "My List." Sorry, kids -- I've been on the outside dozens of times in my career, having written a title or song idea that I got scooped on. I'm just happy that, on this one occasion, I finished the race in first place.

Just keep makin' stuff up and being hopeful that success is yours. Take joy in the process, and DON'T PROCRASTINATE when you have an inspiration!

And never forget, a title is not really an "idea." A song idea requires a concept, a point of view to go with that title. That's what makes a great song a great song.