JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Free songwriting software! I've been using it a few weeks

The truth hurts?

"Nothing wrong with counting syllables but the stress or "beat" and how they fall on the syllables is more important. Always remember to tap that foot."
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So true Bill...but it is handy to compare syllables of verse lines, then modify for stress points.

Turth ? Only to some...

Just because you believe something... doesn't mean you have to attack and cause pain to others... I call it a personal attack...

I agree with Noel, you guys have just taken it too far. I downloaded this program around a month ago or so -- didn't use it, but I see nothing wrong with the concept.

Syllable counting: Once I have written the first verse I often count the syllables so I have some guidelines to make the 2nd/3rd verse fit the overall "beat".

Rhyming dictionary: I almost always have a internet rhyming dictionary available when I write (I tend to use this one: http://perfectrhyme.com/ ) and sometimes I will use a thesaurus.

Paint by Numbers: Have you used the software in question or are you just slamming it because it seems like the "hip" thing to do?

Kevin

I've used VersePerfect for a couple of years and it's a great tool. I don't care about the sylable count because the stress on words is not taken into consideration. I use it like "notepad" as a means of getting words down on a page for safe keeping but the rhyme feature helps when you get stuck and sometimes helps give you an idea that takes you elsewhere in a positive way.

I find it a valuable tool and there is nothing wrong with that. Everything we use in our studios, whether project or professional, is a tool. So is a musical instrument...and so on. That doesn't make either them or it "paint by the numbers." It merely offers alternative ideas. It also features a dictionary and thesaurus if you find a need for it at times just to make sure.

I find it a very useful tool in my lyrical arsenal but according to a couple posts I've read in this thread (rhyme unintended) I must be pretty dumb, eh? A lot like singing with a microphone. If I could really project I guess I wouldn't need a "tool" to help me project my voice and I wouldn't need something additional to add reverb or a delay to my vocal on a recording...or guitar effects, etc.
Hey, wait a minute...Those devices are tools as well.

Maybe I should rethink things and quit using this program and all tools made for embellishment musically. I'm tired of being so incompetent. I'll henceforth just record everything "dry" and keep it that way. I think the studios the big record companies utilize should do the same. Then we'd all be musical purists, maybe somehow save a tree or even the planet for gosh sakes.

Yeppers...quit singing into microphones and using effects on the singer's vocal as a crutch to sweeten the sound. That's the ticket.

Stevie

First off I looked at the software.......I probably would not use it....IMO a good lyric writer should not need such things as they should already be in your head and should come naturally. Rather than syllable counting and comparisons to styles already written people should concentrate on learning the basics. That means concentrating on learning about the music element.....and how lyrics should fit music
Once a lyricist has the basic knowledge and understanding of music composition, melody structure, chords and keys etc etc etc their lyrics would improve many fold. Lyrics should compliment melody.....that cannot be done properly if their is no understanding of such a thing.
This is not a personal attack it is a simple statement of fact.....The home truth is that a lot of word only people never even consider that poems and lyrics are two different beasts.
Now I am never against any tool that enhances work or saves time.
I am however in favour of doing a job properly.....so if you really want to learn how to write good lyrics you really need to learn about music composition. This is a hard knock business and people have to be professional in their craft to gain anything. People should not call themselves songwriters if they are unable or are unwilling or too lazy to learn to play music and can only write poems. Remember that the best lyricist are usually pretty accomplished musicians as well.
I have respect for anybody involved in any part of the process of songwriting and I say this to try to goad people into helping themselves. If the truth hurts well then do something about it. Learn to play guitar or piano and lyric writing would be so much easier and produce better results .....heck you might even have a go at writing the melody as well.

OK, I loaded up verseperfect and I noticed that it had something called Big Jim's Thesaurus! I checked out a couple of words and here's what I found.

Fact --> Opinion
Truth --> Belief

Ha, ha

Kevin

Kevin I know the difference between fact and opinion. In my opinion some lyricists should learn a bit about music before trying to write lyrics. Their work suffers because of lack of musical knowledge...FACT

I do not syllable count when writing lyrics.... the length a line needs to be to fit the meter comes naturally as I write it.
Whilst I agree that sometimes a dictionary or thesaurus or other rhyming aid can be useful I seldom use such tools when writing lyrics. I would not stop others using any tool they feel helps.....just stating that a good education and musical knowledge reduces the other tools necessary to write good lyrics.
Now if people cannot understand this point that is their loss.

Big Jim: Actually, I agree with 100% on what lyricists need to do -- but as soon as I see you using the word "FACT", I generally know that an controversy is sure to follow (ha, ha).

Kevin

My opinions are based on fact.......so how can they be wrong? The only controversy is when people do not listen....or maintain I am wrong. Glad you agree though.....so why the argument.

Really, poets need a feel for musicality every bit as much as lyricists. Even those who write free verse -- one has to have a feel for the natural rhythms, the sound of the words. This is one reason (of many) why there is a plethora of both bad poetry and bad lyrics.

I wonder if I could use the word 'plethora' in a song.

On the use of thesauri and rhyming dictionaries: the great thing is that one can, while looking for the right word or rhyme, come across a word that sends their thoughts in a new and different direction. It is an aid for 'thinking outside the box,' if you'll excuse the cliche. Sort of like a co-writer!

Yet in an earlier post you said....



Have you been forgetting to take your oldtimers medicine again?



Fact is that the best songs have words... usually words that mean something..... otherwise the most popular music would be instrumentals.

Noel I see nothing wrong with BOTH statements....it is especially wrong of you to take them out of context and try to belittle me ......now that is a persoanl attack.....Most people who know anything about writing/producing music and marketing songs would agree with both statements I made in the context they were said. In pop music it is usually the melody that is the hook first and is the main reason for the success of the song.....lyrics are important but much less so.
I was referring to lyrics without music when I said that they were just poems.....most need a lot of work to turn them into a song as there is a big difference between lyrics specifically written for a piece of music and a poem which is hoped can be set to music.

Jim, I appologise for funning you, it was mean of me to take a swipe at you about your age.


Lyrics and poetry are different.... Poetry is metered prose... (all though these days I think they are streching it) Lyrics on the other hand are words written to be sung... Like in music geners there are cross overs just like some rock songs are also country and so some lyrics make good poems and some poems make good lyrics..... however lyrics do not have to meter or even make sense, they do not need to be common speak or poetic... so to make such a sweeping statement is to belittle yourself....

Lyrics without music ... like "They're comming to take me away" are still songs... yes it has melody that is what makes it a song... if it didn't have a melody then it would just be a lyric. The musical arrangement that accompanies a song is not copyrightable only the lyric and melody.... you know that as well as the next person....

so to recap a song consist of a lyric and a melody, (NOT a Poem and a Melody) and may or may not have a musical arrangement to accompany it.

If you want to believe that lyrics with out melody are just poems... good for you... You are allowed to believe what you want. But I disagree and so do the english schollars who produce the dictionionary and the copyright office.

There are those who find the constant belittling of lyric only writers as just poetic wannabees, downright insulting and hurtful... You profess to know so much but how much do you really know when you cannot get the simple things right...

I have no doubt there is a link between the words lyric and poem, (lyrical means something like "has rythym or meter like in poetry") but that time has long since past... people need to get over their prejudices and just accept that lyric writers are songwriters too.

Again I apollogise for making fun of you

Cheers

Noel

Noel we are splitting hairs..... a song according to dictionary definition is a composition or piece of music suitable for singing......IMO.....technically yes a lyric is a kind of poem.....BUT in the context of songwriting lyrics are words to a song...........how can anyone be a songwriter when they DO NOT write the MELODY.
Putting that aside...my point which you seem to fail to accept is that lyric writers could do much better if they understood ......the most important part...the melody.....JMO
I am also of the opinion that pop music is production driven so melody, lyrics and even performance all come second to production. I do not try to set out to belittle anyone all I am suggesting is that folk learn to play music and learn the basics of music composition, arrangement and production....it would enhanve their skills and make them better songwriters.

twice because I did not want to be accused of quoting you out of context..

"Technically yes in your own honest opinion" ... if it's your opinion it's your opinion... You'll need to explain how it is also technically correct and not a fact but opinion......

To get technical ... to be a poem, a group of words need to fit a certain criteria, involving meter, accent and a whole bunch of stuff I don't give a fig for... Technically a lot of what is called poetry... isn't because it doesn't fit the rules, it's actually prose. Technically much bush/cowboy poetry is not poetry but rhyming prose. Technically it is incorrect to call a lyric a poem if it doesn't fit the rules that make a poem a poem. Technically any word or group of words witten to be sung is a lyric.

I don't disagree the more you know the better you can be at any given task...

My objection in the first place is the amount of BS dribbled by folk who should actually know better as they make a huge song and dance over how lyrics only writer should not call themselves a songwriter or are infering that lyrics without melody are just poetry and unimportant as far as the song goes. It annoys me that they can deliberatly set about with thier half truths to prove a mute point while knowingly causing stress and pain to others. For what? To make themselves feel better bigger smarter? As my first comment said what are you so afraid of as to put so much energy into lyrics only writer bashing?

They can because the dictionary defines a songwriter as someone who writes either the lyric and/ or melody of a song.

"according to the dictionary that a song is a composition or piece of music suitable for singing"..... one would assume that to sing one would need to vocalise words or sounds that could pass for words.. just for arguments sake we'll call those words/sounds a lyric... not merily one or more musical notes in sequence as blown out in a whistle.

cheers

Poem or prose it does not matter......in order to write words that are suitable for music one must first understand and have a knowledge of music composition. That is my point and it should be obvious for anyone to comprehend. People get caught up in words sometimes and forget the main issue that it is the music that sells....though important...words alone do not make a song.

To call what I say dribble shows a lack of understanding and unwillingness to learn.....not the other way around. I in no way think I am superior to anyone else.....anyone who knows me will tell you that. I respect all musicians and songwriters regardless of ability.
I recently was asked to put music to words from someone who called themselves a lyricist.......After spending many hours trying to make a silk purse from a sows ear ...I finally had a demo having to almost rewrite the words. The guy had the cheek to complain that I had changed his words and should have stuck with them. I told him to learn to write music and he could put his own melody down.....

Fact is some so called lyrics cannot be put to music cause they do not meter or follow a format suitable for music. That is what I meant by two different beasts.

I have re read this whole thread and feel that I have been misunderstood.....Noel has clearly got the wrong end of the stick as far as my intentions.....So for the record I will clarify exactly what I mean.

Any software that helps people write better songs is OK to use. I do not have a problem with that.
That said a good understanding and the ability to write music suitable for lyrics or lyrics suitable for music requires skill and knowledge. In order to write lyrics suitable for music then a good understanding of the music aspect should come first. The best way of achieving this is to learn to play an instrument and aquire the musical theory that goes with it. Some people have no idea as to the amount of time and effort that goes into writing and recording music compared to just writing the words. Perhaps learning that should be a priority rather than syllable counting and rhyming dictionaries. This is in no way a personal attack on anybody but general advice to those lyricists who do not understand the finer points of music composition etc.
I would add that the standards here on JPF are pretty good and the incident mentioned in my last post was not concerning anyone from this forum. That does not mean that they cannot improve.
We should all strive to be the best we can be and take my advice in the spirit it is meant.

Big Jim
This statement says it all. But it is your opinion and that is OK. Personally I think you are mistaken.


It does take more time to record, mix, and master a song. That's a given. Many hours can be spent in mixing alone. Each piece takes time.
That does not mean it is harder to do or takes more talent to do one over the other.

It takes years to master the art of writing lyrics just as it takes years to master the art of playing an instrument.

I believe the ability to match words with music comes with the same amount of practice as it takes to match music to words.
If you write the words and work with musicians to put those words to music you will learn the way music and words fit together. There is always a bit of tweaking to make them match in perfect harmony.

Different talents to be sure but both take hard work and have a learning curve.

Bill sorry to disagree.....everyone and their granny seem to be able to write lyrics and it seems that most of them do.....
When it comes to recording and editing etc.....different story.
The standard of recordings on the MP3 forum is generally quite poor and from the amount of questions being asked about basic functions and recording techniques it would appear that many people do not have a clue.
I know from experience how long it takes to learn even basic recording skills.......and how long it takes to turn a lyric into a song by writing and recording the music.
I also know how long it takes me to write lyrics...there is no comparison. That does not mean that I respect lyricists any less it just means that perhaps they have little idea in the skill difference and time factor each element takes.
As I said earlier my objective is to encourage lyricists with no formal music education to learn. It might also help if they went to a studio to see how difficult and time consuming recording etc actually is. I wish I could get away with just writing lyrics...LOL
To illustrate my point there is a story that most studios will have experienced. A guy booked one hour of studio time.....he wanted to record an album......it took an hour for the laughter to stop. It can take many hours just for one track to be recorded and mastered.

Gheez,
In the old days they didn't need no stinkin' Software to record with. All the Musicians went into the Studio and recorded a song. If it didn't exactly come out right they just did it again. And usually all the musicians were top notch, from years of practice of course. Much of the time they got it in one take. Master that.

Jim I didn't get the wrong end of the stick... And if you doubt me just re-read what you wrote. You keep denying you are belittling others.... then in the next breath waffle on about how much more skill it takes, and how it is so much more important to write a melody... how unimportant lyrics and lyric writers are.... just down right hurtful and offensive stuff.

Not one of the lyric only writers doubts the skill and effort it takes to write a melody, nor the effort that goes into production. Not one of the lyric only writers, ever started a tirade at a melody writer, musician or performer over a possible tool to help them improve their craft.

Now I don't know you well enough to know what your problem is, but IMHO you have a problem... Writing stuff then denying you wrote it, stating you were taken out of context when you were shown to be contradicting yourself, citing your own opinion as technical fact... shows that you have a problem.... whether it is the Richard Cranium syndrome or something more serious who knows.... get over yourself or get help.

Noel you have the problem...ignoring the blindingly obvious. Check back on all my posts I argue a point without stupid name calling......only an ignoramus does that....it is you that has a problem SORRY. I in no way am insulting lyricists.....just giving advice.

Ray that must have been back in the days when musicians wrote songs and only talented people were allowed on TV showa or to record in a studio. LOL
I suggest you see what goes on in a studio and see the stinkin softare in action. You might be surprised. I also remember when lyricists did not need any stinkin software either.

If you say it it must be true.

No it is for others who read your direct insults to make up their own minds.

At least my arguments are clear, consise, well supported by by fact, and do not contradict each other. They are clearly distinuished from opinion (which like you I am entitled to) and where I had opinion it was corectly labled. My conclusions are supported by the evidence and linked to the arguments. As a case study I would have scored very well.

A University Education is a wonderful thing

Cheers

So Noel you are suggesting that lyric writing is more important to a song than melody and that I insult people by saying they should expand their knowledge, musical ability and skills in music production and recording in order to be a better songwriter. I did not go to university but if that is what they taught you then I am glad I passed on that one.
Please do not take this the wrong way I mean this as advice not an insult just as all the other stuff was meant as advice.... I did check out your songs......you really need to make better recordings. It would improve your songs no end.

Nope and if you reread what I said and what you said.. just to refresh your memory... I have never suggested one way or the other although I do appreciate the amount of musical skill required to write a decent melody. You would also see that I support the opinion that people who expand their knowledge are more likely to be better at their craft than if not...

I have voiced my beef very clearly... It will always be the same... there is no need to be nasty to anyone doing their best with what they have.

I thank you for your compliment regarding my writing, I am still working on it, but have taken nearly three years off lyrics to work on my guitar playing and music knowledge ...

Cheers

Noel I was not talking about your writing or playing I was talking about the quality of the recordings........As for your beef I SIMPLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND......I suggested that people improve their skills and learn to play and write music rather than just write lyrics and all of a sudden that makes me a bad person.....

For information you do not need lots of expensive equipment to produce a reasonable quality recording. Online there are lots of freebie software and free tutorials that will help get the best out of any setup.

I think that many musicans don't understand that some (and I can't be alone) have no interest in writing melody's or creating music.

You have to have a passion for writing music just as you do for lyrics.

You have to want to learn.

Big Jim, I could spend the next twenty years trying to write a great melody and never do it. But lyrics I know I can do, and in my humble opinion do well.

I have been dealing with studios and composers for many years and almost of of them have been great at what they do IMO, but they have no interest or indeed skill in writing lyrics.

So I guess we all need each other to a greater or lessor degree.

just my thoughts

God bless Roy and Helen

I seriously suggest you go back and read what you wrote.... Your first 5 posts were none too polite in telling us how much more important melody writing is. I found then insulting.....

The sixth infered if we used VP were were not real lyric writers and should actually learn how to write..... This post at least wasn't an outright attack on all lyric writers...

Only after I chimed in asking what you were afraid of did you line of comment change completly

so if you don't get it then.. I can't help you.

English is my second language, but if I like a song
I always find it's lyrics to read it.

Next: great lyrics inspires a great melody.

Sorry, but I don't see here, there and everywhere
many good examples of lyrics, although I try to find them.
Only one time I found something that fired me:
I left all affairs, sat down and wrote chorus in
half hour, then I send it to a lyrics author, but heck,
he said:"Your music is good but song with this
lyrics already exists"
Next thought: all the genres are determined by
music not by lyrics. It means: if you see a lyrics of a song you never heard you hardly determine a genre
but if you hear for example Smoke On The Water
by Deep Purple or Iron Man by Black Sabbath even without vocals, definitely you'll say it's hard rock, etc.

Roy I understand what you are saying......There are people who write lyrics but are not great at writing music and vice versa.....that said to improve as a songwriter everyone has to at least have a working knowledge and understanding of the other side of the coin.
You have to have knowledge of musical terminology and melody composition lifts, bridges chorus, middle eight, intro, outro, meter, time sig, tempo plus a lot more WHETHER YOU ARE WRITING LYRICS, MELODY OR BOTH. Surely all serious lyricists would want to learn about such things in order to improve their own speciality skill and little or no knowledge of these things must hinder. Playing an instrument even to a small degree must improve all these things.
As stated earlier I get a lot of lyrics to put music to from lyric only writers. It is obvious to me at first glance that a lot do not have much if any musical theory knowledge .....whilst some of the words are pretty clever and creative most times they require a hell of a lot of major work (not just tinkering here and there as with most lyrics being put to music) to allow them to be fitted to a piece of music).....life for MUSICATORS would be so much easier if this hard work was already done by the person responsible for it and they were left to write the music. I sometimes wonder if lyric only people REALLY understand just how much work writing a melody and producing a demo is compared to penning a few lines and how much skill, learning and practice was needed to get to that musical standard.
Now I hear people say that lyricists do understand and I am insulting them for inferring that they do not...if that is the case then why do they not make life easy by at least learning THEIR part properly.
I say all this in the hope that those who do not understand this gulf or gap in their skills do something about and those who already know still strive to learn the whole of songwriting not just penning words.
Roy I respect everyone in music and speak from the heart.....I am sorry that people take my advice the wrong way or as Noel says as an insult. It is not meant that way but sometimes a friendly kick up the backside works wonders.
To turn it around...... sometimes it is hurtful and an insult when after all those years of studying music and learning how to perform and record....people who have none of those skills and have penned a few lines without much thought or skill take us for granted.

PS...... Roy I know lots of musicians.....some of them do not write great lyrics or have a lesser interest in lyric writing....I also know a lot who write both to a very high standard.....I also know some great musicians who have no interest at all in writing..... they just enjoy performing. One thing that unites us all is a love for music......I just do not understand why some folk cannot take this enthuiasm to the limit. There is not enough time IN A LIFETIME for me to achieve everything and learn everything I want to about music.... that includes writing performing snd production BUT HEY I am giving it a good go.....LOL

Big Jim:

----------------- quote ------------

You have to have knowledge of musical terminology and melody composition lifts, bridges chorus, middle eight, intro, outro, meter, time sig, tempo plus a lot more WHETHER YOU ARE WRITING LYRICS, MELODY OR BOTH. Surely all serious lyricists would want to learn about such things in order to improve their own speciality skill and little or no knowledge of these things must hinder. Playing an instrument even to a small degree must improve all these things.

------- unquote --------

Why Big Jim?

When I write lyrics, I have flow going on in my head as I write. To me the lyrics are all and I work 100% to make them perfect. I do it seriously.

If I was to send you lyrics to a song, along with a melody that I believe is right for the song and asked you to put it all together and my melody was crap, what would YOU DO.
You would either say, look Roy I can do a better melody or you would side step and say, it’s not for me Roy. You have the experience to do that.

So yes, I agree with your points, providing that the writer has the passion and skill to create ORIGINAL, GREAT, music. Big if that.

A crap tune is a crap tune, just as crap lyrics are crap lyrics.

---- quote -----

I sometimes wonder if lyric only people REALLY understand just how much work writing a melody and producing a demo is compared to penning a few lines and how much skill, learning and practice was needed to get to that musical standard.

--- unquote -----

You keep saying Penning a few lines as if that’s what we do.

Big Jim, we work damm hard writing lyrics and some work harder than others. Sure some can do it quickly and be real good every time. I won’t mention names (you know who they are) but they worked real hard to become that proficient at writing lyrics.
And Yes some will knock out lyrics that are not as good and that can be quickly done as well. Just as a musician can quickly knock out a crap tune. We can all do that.

Personally, I have my melody’s done by a professional melody writer. I pay him for that service. And he is great at it. For him, writing a melody is simple, NOW he has learnt his trade.

--- quote ----

Now I hear people say that lyricists do understand and I am insulting them for inferring that they do not...if that is the case then why do they not make life easy by at least learning THEIR part properly.

--- unquote ----

We write lyrics Jim, that is it. WE HAVE learnt our part properly.

Just because some musicians/composers can’t quickly and easily put a tune to our words, maybe means that the musicians/composers hasn’t learnt their trade properly.

I don’t see your words as an insult Big Jim, they are your opinions based on your experience.

-------- quote ----

To turn it around...... sometimes it is hurtful and an insult when after all those years of studying music and learning how to perform and record....people who have none of those skills and have penned a few lines without much thought or skill take us for granted.

-------- unquote --------

Big Jim, when lyric writers do that to you then it is them doing it, not all lyric writers.

Just as some musicians/composers are wrapped up with the GREATNESS OF THEMSELVES, so some musicians/composers are.

We each do what we do and some do it 150%, while others don’t.

It does sound to me Big Jim that you have little respect for lyric writers and
Find it hard to change your opinion.

I have some songs Big Jim that have been put to music and I wouldn’t send them to anyone. Not because the lyrics suck, but because in my opinion, the music/vocals suck.

That doesn’t mean that I have no respect for all musicians/composers, it just means that everyone gets it wrong sometimes IN MY OPINION.

---- quote -----

One thing that unites us all is a love for music......I just do not understand why some folk cannot take this enthuiasm to the limit. There is not enough time IN A LIFETIME for me to achieve everything and learn everything I want to about music.... that includes writing performing snd production BUT HEY I am giving it a good go.....LOL

---- unquote -----

Ok Big Jim. Lets take it to the next level.
Many years ago, I decided that to promote my music, having a music video was the way to go.
Surly that is the ultimate given today’s expectation of the full multimedia experience.

So I spent many many 1000’s of pounds on filming equipment and over 10 years learning the craft.

I have over 20 finished music videos and have had artistes come from many parts of the world for me to make videos for them.

Does that make my videos the best out there. In my opinion yes, and in my wife Helen’s opinion YES… lol.

But is Spielberg’s opinon … no.. they are crap.

Just because we spend years and £sss learning something does not mean we are great in others opinions.

Some lyric writers have a very high expectation because they feel THEY ARE GREAT AND SO ARE THEIR LYRICS. The composer will often leave them at an anti-climax because some composer’s are not so great (in their opinion).

It’s a fact of life.

Anyway that’s me Big Jim. I am drained lol

Speak later

God Bless Roy and Helen

Hey Roy,

You are kidding right ?

cheers, niteshift

The ol lyrics vs music argument again huh ?

Hmm,........

Well, I think all Big Jim is saying, is that a songwriter knows all the pieces of the puzzle, and tries to fit them together.

Denying that it is the music, essentially, which makes a song, and refusing to learn music, seems quite silly to anyone who would care to call themselves a songwriter.

Kinda like the Emperor with no clothes,..... on a cold day,..... with nothing to show........ LOL

cheers, niteshift

There are plenty of hard up musicians and studio guys who will gladly for a work for hire agreement write a tune or produce a demo. They are worth their weight in gold.
I do not have a problem with this........My problem is that lyricists generally cannot be bothered to learn their craft properly and use these people as a crutch. If they do not understand music theory their lyrics are bound to be flawed and one dimensional. Surely anyone who has a passion for songwriting would want to at least understand and learn things outside a very narrow comfort zone. It is called self improvement.
I was taught that if you are going to do a job then it is worth doing properly. With all due respect penning a few lines without musical knowledge regardless of how long it takes or how much skill, care and effort goes into it is only a minor part of the job and the real hard work and creativity is being shunned.

"Why Big Jim would I need or want to spend 10 years learning the craft of music when I can do it this way."
That about sums up my argument......how can lyric only people demand respect when they adopt this attitude.
I spent a hell of a lot longer than ten years learning and am still learning....... but at least I am at a level where I understand and am involved in the whole process....not just a very tiny part of it. Perhaps the reason why I can write lyrics faster than MOST lyricist is down to my understanding of music not just words.
Do I respect lyricists less than musicians......NO......just the ones too lazy to learn their craft properly.
Any decent music writer can spot right away lyrics written by a non musician.....three guesses as to why.

Well that is all I need say on the subject......

Sure niteshift. I am just kidding. but who is the joke on lol.

I took out the example as I don't want to upset the purist musicians/composers lol

I don't deny anything.

--- quote ---

Well, I think all Big Jim is saying, is that a songwriter knows all the pieces of the puzzle, and tries to fit them together

---- unquote ---

It's alright saying after the fact that iether it was the lyrics or the music made the song. But all I say is that a crap tune won't work with great lyrics and vis-versa.

To assume that learning the guitar or having the software will make for a better songwriter is crap.

Some can write words, some can write music. why not just live together instead of always looking to feel superior.


anyway I will move on from this topic as no agreement will ever be reached.

I was always told never to discuss religion or politics.

I guess that should be extended to include..

what makes a great song the music or the lyrics.

ps. Big Jim. I guess I am no longer on your list of those you would do a co-write with (if I ever was on your list). lol
God Bless Roy and Helen

LOL, If you can't see how dismissive and insulting those few words are ("penning a few lines") to most lyric-writers, then it goes a long way to understanding why this thread has gone on and on in a negative fashion. The fact that you "don't mean to insult", doesn't stop the fact that you probably are (ha, ha).

As for me, I have always been 100% for lyric writers to learn music and if folks want to use a program to keep track of their writings and use a rhyming dictionary and a thesaurus -- why not? "A carpenter is not measured by the tools they use, but by the quality of their craftsmanship".

Kevin

Roy I would gladly cowrite with you....I have great respect for all fellow JPFs......even the ones I argue with. I am also in favour of live and let live. That said I also follow the mantra that we should be all we can be..... that sometimes includes learning things that are hard to learn and straying well outside our own comfort zone.
People all have gifts and talents and we should exploit our strengths and try to improve weaknesses......I believe in taking shortcuts if they are available.......BUT we should at least understand how to do the job properly in the first place. It is bound to help and improve our strengths.

I agree.... naturally certain people might feel insulted if their weaknesses are exposed. They will get over it and perhaps the message might hit home.

Huh ?

This is a songwriters' board isn't it ? Where am I ?

Yes, learning the guitar will make you a better songwriter. In fact it is the only way to be a songwriter. You can't be a songwriter without being able to write music. You may, perhaps be able to call yourself a lyricist, but definitely not a songwriter.

This site is all about education, right ? So far, lemme see, 642 pepople have viewed this thread.

I wouldn't like someone who is just starting out, to get the wrong impression and to think that you can write a few lines of words, pay a bunch of session musicians to write the song, and then record it, then call it your own, and then defend the practice as songwriting . It simply isn't.

That practice is simple uncreative lazyness. Heck, if my 6 and 8 yr olds can learn music, one the drums, the other the piano, then there is no excuse for a so-called "words only" adult to at least get a rudimentary grounding in music, to aid what they're doing.

I don't think it's a lyrics vs melody thing. I think it's a lazy vs hard working thing.

cheers, niteshift

Thanks Nite I was beginning to feel outnumbered...... LOL
I would say laziness has its part but IMO it is more an ignorance and lack of understanding of the process.

Ok Nite lets get this right.

Ok call me a lyric writer if it pleases you. That is fine by me.

Just don't say that lyric writers don't work hard at their craft.

Although I doubt you would see it as a craft if no instument is included.

--- quote ---
I wouldn't like someone who is just starting out, to get the wrong impression and to think that you can write a few lines of words, pay a bunch of session musicians to write the song, and then record it, then call it your own, and then defend the practice as songwriting . It simply isn't.

--- unquote ----

there it is again, but said in a different way... "you can write a few lines of words"

The reason why I pay "a bunch of session singers' and a studio Nite, it that they IMO do a fine job with my lyrics. NO EGO. No my music is too good or better than your words. No Oh, we will have to change the words to suit OUR MUSIC.

No they offer a service and I am willing to make use of that.

Too be honest and IMO, I have over the years had many songs (sorry lyrics) put to music by friends and others and NEVER have I got the quality that I get when I pay for it IMO.

--- quote ----

That practice is simple uncreative lazyness. Heck, if my 6 and 8 yr olds can learn music, one the drums, the other the piano, then there is no excuse for a so-called "words only" adult to at least get a rudimentary grounding in music, to aid what they're doing.

I don't think it's a lyrics vs melody thing. I think it's a lazy vs hard working thing.

--- un quote ----

When I was a child I learnt a lot of things and as I grew up a lot of other things.

To say that we dont' learn to play music because we are lazy and not hard working is so wrong.

How do you know Nite what we do. When I was 55 years old, I learnt to make music videos and film and produce 'chromakey' effects to further my knowledge. The local uni ask me to teach the teachers now.

You are impliying that if I learn to play an instrument then my lyric writing will become better.

What crap. I do actually play an instument (to a degree) but if I played in your studio, you would tel me not to give up my day job.

I pay someone who IMO does a great job FOR ME. We all pay the piper somehwere along the line.

YES if you leanr to play music and YOU ARE GOOD AT IT, then your songwriting will improve. But not everyone comes from a musical background or has 20 years left to do that.

So to say that I am lazy. ummmmm

My grandson plays drums and has played with the who. But that dosnt mean I could do the same.

God Bless Roy and Helen

LOL,

Big Jim says "I don't mean to insult, but ..."
Niteshift says "OK, I mean to insult and here goes...."

Kevin

LOL Kevin.. It's called 'going in for the kill" lol

Yes, absolutely, without question. That one is a no-brainer.

And I suppose it might seem insulting, but that's not the purpose Roy. The purpose is to shake some bloomin' sense into you !

You don't have to Liberace, just a few basic chord structures, and simple understanding of melody, will improve your skills considerably.

You can video edit, but you can't pick out a few notes, and read up on some music theory ?

Get off your backside, and do the hard yards like everyone else.

In fact, no, don't do that......

I'll just pay you to write my lyrics, then pay a bunch of session guys to write the melody, then call the songs my own, and then call myself a songwriter. Too easy.....

cheers, niteshift

PS - Kevin, you are a sh*t stirrer sir, and belong with the pond scum, at the bottom of the barrel. Oh wait, .... I forgot, you're a musician, so you're already there....

Roy of course some are better at certain things than others......some people write great lyrics but are rubbish at writing tunes...and vice versa. Lyrics follow a musical pattern and meter etc. You cannot write to any musical pattern if you do not understand MUSIC.
To say that lyricists do not need any musical training or knowledge...is an insult to all songwriters whether lyricists or musicians.
I also think it is ethically dubious to claim creative and financial rights and rewards for work that is clearly in the main done by others. Sadly this seems to have become accepted practice in the industry as needs must for starving musicians.
The music history books are littered with musicians who were the real force responsible for a hit but only got paid a pittance on a work for hire agreement.