JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Why don't Lyricists learn an Instrument?

The whole point about learning to play an instrument is that IMO it is one of the easiest ways to learn musical knowledge....Knowing about beats and bars and keys and meter and bridges and middle eights and time sigs etc etc etc that come with learnig to play is essential to be able to write good lyrics. Whilst some people have a natural aptitude for writing words which can be set to music it is easier and the results are spectacularly better if they are written with this musical knowledge on board.
I have to spend time rewriting lyrics from word only people in order to fit any music I am about to create cause they do not meter or will sing well. This job could have been done already by the lyricist if they understood musical theory a bit better.

Re the ten minute thing.....well perhaps if lyric only people did learn more about music theory etc they too could knock up half decent lyrics in ten minutes... COUNTING SYLLABLES WOULD COME NATURALLY.....LOL

Hi Folks,

First:

Colm, my comments had zero to do with any of your post so no need to be paranoid about it applying to you. The person who sparked my comments is oblivious to it all.

Tams, I did read your comments and I am glad you found some of the support you needed here. I appreciate you commenting on it.

Joice (and at least 1 other person): I am totally shocked and saddened that you feel it's the fault of the abused rather than the abuser in your own life or that you'd view anyone else with that terrible viewpoint. As someone who grew up around non stop abusive situations all around me as well as spending a lot of time doing social work trying to help abuse victims I can assure you it is NOT the fault of the abused. Sure, some people are strong enough to rise above it on their own, in fact most people are, but those doing the abuse do not EVER get a pass for what they've done outside of whatever forgiveness the victim might want to offer.

It's great to encourage people to try and overcome, but it's certainly no reflection on them if they can't do it at all, or if they can't do it alone.

These responses were to posts I think from page 1. Sorry to be so serious but sometimes people toss comments around without seeing past their own perspective. It's wonderful for those who can overcome abuse or bullying. Don't assume everyone else can respond in kind, especially on their own.

Brian

Thanks Again Donna and to all the other contributors on this one. It has been an enlightening topic well worth exploring as so many members have clearly so many different views on the general topic.

There's possibly a very simple solution in the end, one which Donna has already mentioned more than once.

That is: Only to post 'lyrics' that have yet to be put to music on the lyrics forums. Alternatively, lyrics which have a melody on either the MP3 or under circumstances where there is a melody but no MP3 available on a separate forum specifically for that purpose.

My last statement here is to emphasize that my purpose was to highlight slight but significant differences between the lyrics in all three categories mentioned above.

Nothing I have said was intended to coerce any of our members to work in any other way than the way makes them comfortable pursuing their various creative crafts. Indeed it has been to specify subtle differences in the way members write lyrics that has been the entire purpose of my post.

Many Thanks to you all for taking part - I think we've all learned a great deal!

Regards from Ireland

ColmT

P.S. Thanks for your comments and reassurance Brian. I absolutely agree with you. The abused bare NO BLAME for their abuse! Negative co-dependency sometimes plays a role in an abusive relationship - but that's not blameworthy it's self preservation and protection!

I think that I qualify for this -- I wrote poems and hoped to someday write music to them -- here's one after I began to play guitar 2007 --- apologies for the playing : ) --- it has never been redone

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=5056521


ANYWAY --- hands down --- my songs and lyrics are better NOW

when I came to the jpf board - I only wrote lyrics --- I have stayed and learned from here and my own study and practice......


I CAN HONESTLY SAY - THAT I WISH I HAD LEARNED TO PLAY SOONER

No regrets about the hours spent so Far and wish I could throw more hours at honing the musical skills... but I have to earn a living to pay my bills.... but any amount of time that I do give it adds up and gives me great pleasure -- I no longer watch TV

Hi Brian

I would encourage anyone to move beyond their abuse -- stop being a victim ! -- sorry that we disagree - but we Do.

AND - I NEVER SAID THE ABUSE WAS THEIR FAULT ___ those are your words.


: ) jm


here's what I DID SAY

How did "Why don't Lyricists learn an Instrument"? turn into a topic on abuse? NO,,,don't answer that, for it could further confuse me! Just know, whoever was abused, like anything else, there are resources out there to get any help needed. Seek it, and don't be ashamed. I feel luckier than ever, having no abuse handed to me. I can't imagine what those who went through any abuse would feel, and that would be strong enough to bring up on this or any "other" topic post. My heart goes out to those who did.

I think that playing an instrument will defiantly help out people who are trying to write SONG LYRICS, not poems. Because I don't know about others. But when I write a song 9 out of 10 times I have a theme I want to write about. I then pick up my guitar and I play chords and come up with a melody. Then the words come last, that way I can intertwine the words with the music.

Even when I was in a band with a good buddy, he would bring me poems. And I always had to change the words around to make them work. Not change the words, more like switch lines around. I really don't think you can write song lyrics without playing music to it first. If you don't have music to it, then it is a poem.

Please don't lynch me guys and gals. I'm just stating my opinion. I'm not downplaying anyone at all. There are great and wonderful poems. Also great songs.

Thanks,
Patrick!

If you are in this just for fun or as a hobby, do whatever you want and enjoy it. But if you want to play in the major leagues, you better be able to swing a bat and catch a ball.

Here's the same thread from 2009 (ha, ha): http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=731002

You'll notice that a least a couple of the people on that thread didn't do any music then -- but they are now!

Kevin

I've not yet learned to play an instrument, 9ne. However, there've been profound changes in my outlook since I began in mid-2008 to write lyrics. (Prior to that, my interest was poetry/short stories.)

A. My lyrics - I like to think - have improved as a result of honest and constructive critiques offered on forums set up for this purpose. Reading and critiquing others' lyrics has also helped in the way I critique my own work.

B. I've become confident enough to begin creating melodies for my own lyrics (including two that I created - very slowly and during all-nighters - on my keyboard. Yes, I actually did buy a nice Yamaha a year or so ago. ). These vocal guides have been helpful to collaborators who then simply focus on a music bedtrack. Or it's given them - or the vocalist - a melodic basis to build upon, especially in terms of the phrasing. (Many songs have appealing music and lyrics but the phrasing is inappropriate, with emphasis placed on the wrong words. It's surprising how often this aspect of the performance is overlooked.)

C. I've overcome a natural shyness/reclusivity to the extent that I now have no problem posting A Cappella vocal guides to internet forums - for all the world to hear and to cringe at - or to collaborators.

As they say in Ireland, I've learned to "spring over my own shadow".

D. Most importantly, though, I've come to have a better understanding of music, and a truly deep appreciation of and respect for musicians. It's still to me a miracle how these men and women can elicit poignancy, joy, humour, drama, passion, anger, peace, love, hatred - every conceivable emotion - from a bunch of strings or by blowing air into an object or by hitting objects with sticks.

Before 2008, I'd liked music (of all kinds), even been inspired by much of it. But I'd never realised the extent of the passion, the love, the dedication, the skill, the blood-sweat-and-tears that a musician can pour into his/her work. For me, this has been humbling, enlightening, exciting, and inspiring.

It's also compelled me to search for information on music theory, to recognise the importance of certain basic chords, and to devour books like Oliver Sachs' "Musicophilia" and Daniel Levitin's "This Is Your Brain On Music" and "The World In Six Songs: How The Musical Brain Created Human Nature".

When a musician contacts me to ask if I'd write a lyric for his music, or to ask for permission to put music to a lyric of mine, I feel honoured.

I don't play an instrument. Maybe I never will. I wish I did. But I'm a lot further upstream than I was in July 2008.

Donna

Geeze, all this Whuppin' on us Lyricists-Only types.

Waal..I'm pleased to inform Mz DonnaM..(&..Our Musical Collaborator-in-Heidelberg)..that our co-written "Wear Black to The Party" Demo was placed in Gene Simmonds' hands last Dec. 2nd...

AND..This "Lyricist-Only" Dude has Open-Access to KISS..& anything else Gene Simmonds controls (Like his Own Record Label & Publishing House)..through his Website Designer..for the next Two Months. So...I'm seeking MELODIES..and Lyrics...to Co-Write ON..with Gene & Co. in-mind. PM me here/Let's get to work, y'alls~

I'm QUITE aware you Musicos DO a lot of the "Heavy-Lifting", but don't forget SOMETIMES you need a Mere-Lyricist to make it GO Somewhere.

Best Wishes & ROCK ON!
Big Hugs too/Many Thanks DonnaM for all the help on that Last One!!! (Gene listens One Day a Week..SOLID..to EVERYTHING that's come in!) Cross yer Pinkies~
Stan

I think that some do not have or think they do not have the talent to play an instrument. Simple as that.

Tom

Hi All

I've started another follow-up post in the General Forum as a suggested way whereby specialized lyricists might help and share a bit more of the weight of a collaboration.

It's titled 'Reading Lyrics (without music) on MP3'

After opening Dottie's proverbial 'Can of Worms!' I thought it was the least I could do!

So have a peek and leave your comments!

Many Thanks from Ireland

ColmT

Begs the question, why don't all instrumentalists/composers learn to write lyrics?

Well, shoot, there have been composers who never learned to read music and/or play an instrument. Lionel Bart (who wrote both lyrics and music) would hum his songs and let someone else write them out. I believe Leslie Bricusse would work that way too.

Hi Dak

That's brilliant!

ColmT

Stephen

In 'Tin Pan Alley' years ago, musicians were employed 9 to 5 to write original songs for the sheet music market before advent recorded music.

They developed the 'Old Grey Whistle Test!' After the piano rooms were locked up for the night, the musicians would go down to the cafeteria where the cleaning ladies were working. In order to pick the best tunes to present to the boss the next morning, one musician would whistle the melody while another sang the lyrics! If the old grey haired cleaners like it they keep the song, if they didn't the musicians would disregard it!

Hence the name 'Old Grey Whistle Test!'

Another piece of useless musical history

Regards

ColmT

Many do, these guys are called SONGWRITERS.

That is probably one of the MAIN reasons WHY there are MANY more lyricists only people wanting music for their words on this forum. Composers looking for lyrics are like hen's teeth whilst lyrics without music are ten a penny.

Big Jim

I know you are right! We both know that you and I can and do both! I guess in fairness it must be said, just because we have two skills rather than one, one fiddle doesn't make an orchestra but may make a 'virtuoso soloist' with the co-operation of the rest.

I'd love to believe that you and me are the ones Big Jim! But we both know there is always a better musician, songwriter or lyricist out there somewhere!

One friend here Tom Yeager, for me is a brilliant 'words-man' and while having some musical experience and knowledge, knows what he's good at and concentrates on that! I know exactly what you mean of course Jim, but certain 'words-men/women' aren't two a penny especially good ones!

Cheers Buddy, hope the weather in Scotland is holding up.

Rock on friend

ColmT

Whoops! Typo! What I meant to say was..."for the same reason John Lennon didn't play bassoon."

Bassoon, I meant! Bassoon!

Colm I gave up on who is better years ago.....I do not see music as a competition....unless of course you are competing with yourself...I try to be the best I can...I am my own worst critic. I know my strengths and many weaknesses. I utilise the services of others in areas where they are strong and in return sometimes they use my services in areas they feel I am strong...that is how the business works for us. The point I make is that to be better you must have knowledge....the more knowledge you have the better you become.
Learning even the basics on an instrument will help improve other areas like lyric writing. It is human nature to compete and to strive to be as good as you can......
If some people do not wish to follow that advice or for whatever reason see it as bad advice...well it is their loss no skin of my nose....they can never be the best they can.
When I was at school I learned subjects I hated and thought were useless to me...Given the choice I would have ditched them...I am glad I learned them as they came useful in later life.
Interesdting that I have heard a lot from folk here who say learning an instrument improved their lyrics......

Oh, here's john lennon on bassoon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSdYRkePJMI -- here he is proving that Paul actually did steal this melody from someone. But,of course, John got credit anyway.

Hi Big Jim

Of course, you're right! But I thought you were a musician, as opposed to a spy!

You must be reading my mail! Internet Security! LOL What can you do!

The truth I suspect is this. While it's all very P.C. most people on JPFolks don't give a sh*t about what people think any more than you or I.

Would-be artists don't crave 'belongingness' or 'belief' in their lives they seek 'recognition'!

Am I mad Jim or do you get that?

CcolmT

Its all money and recognition....."I want to be rich and famous" has replaced "I want to make great music".

Well when I started it was 'I want to attract girls.'

Hey Guys

I want to make great F**kin' music and oh! Yeah! Stephen attract the girls! Don't you just love a compromise!

Rock to F**k on guys!

ColmT

Colm...your pissed offedness is starting to turn me on!

Hey Don't drag that can of worms into this unless have enough to go around!

Polly and Dottie

Typical Irish! - The guy who started the bar room brawl, ends up with the girls. Bad boys and rock an' roll! I just love it!

ColmT xxx

"victim of All that Brian mentions --- HOWEVER -- I view it as something that I ALlowed to happen" -Joice

Joice,

That's what I took (and still do) as you suggesting the fault lies with the abused. That the victim "allowed" it to happen. Would that apply to all victimhood or a limited range of it? I simply don't hold the abused responsible for someone else's actions. And I don't blame the abused for not being able to rise above it. Knowing women and children who were raped, some simply have never been able to get past it completely. (Many others have). Mentally abused folks are often in an even tougher situation. Encourage and help them overcome and move past, but don't turn the blame away from the perpetrator and towards the victim.

I'll let this topic stop now as it's a dark tangent to the original topic here, but after hearing so many abusers claim "the bitch deserved it" or hearing little kids blame themselves for molestation and family violence, it makes me ill for someone to support that viewpoint on any level.

Brian

Frankly Brian I don't like that you keep framing Me and what I say as a Supporter of abuse Stop it . !!!

I Believe the abused Should and Can try to rise above the abuse - We should encourage them to do so,

jm