JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum When to Join a PRO?

Hi folks,

I'm relatively new to the scene and have a few questions about when to join a PRO. I have a few recordings under my belt now and am going to start submitting them to a few different libraries, just to test the water. I've noticed that on submittal forms and membership sites, they ask for your PRO affiliation.

Is this an affiliation I should have before I start submitting my music, or should I only worry about that if my songs get accepted somewhere?

I've also noticed that at ASCAP, you can also register as a publisher. Would there be any advantage to doing that, or should I assume that the libraries (should they pick up my music) would be acting as my publisher?

Hope that makes sense. Any light you could shine on this for me would be greatly appreciated.
Best wishes.

Tim,

I always use the phrase that "right around your second million sales" is when you should start thinking about joining a PRO. I make a joke because this always seems to be the thing everyone is most interested in and the reality is that ASCAP, BMI and SESAC are all trying to figure out how to stay relavant anymore in a world that has gone to "Free" music. It's kind of like "Which combination of chair setting do you like on the deck of the Titanic?"

The PRO's have a very important place in music trying to enforce something that in many ways has become unenforcable. Everyone involved in the music industry have been pleading the "There is a problem" case for some time, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. I don't know what can be done about it now.

The best thing to do is make appointments at both (you have be invited to join SESAC) and meet with the writer reps and see what they say. Talk to members of each and see what they say about their experiences. Mine is ASCAP but I have met as many people unhappy with BMI as they are with ASCAP. The biggest complaint seems to be that no one will call back or answer any questions. And this is from people that have had number one records. Personally I think they just don't know what to say. They are simply not collecting as much money anymore.

As a writer, you can only affiliate with one. But you can have separate publishing companies with both. You are acting as your own publisher until you can get someone else to take over the job. Just think about all the personal appointments you have sitting down with major artists, producers, film directors, music directors, television producers and you can begin to see the advantages to owning your own publishing. Publishers spend their lives developing access to these people which is why most successful people give up the publishing to gain the access. Unfortuntately now even getting publishers to see you is a pretty tall order. Same problem. Can't collect on free.


I wish you a lot of luck in trying to find your way through this. Everyone is going through the same things. Maybe you will find some others that can give you a little more information to help you on your search. Most of it you are going to have to find out for yourself by going to the source.
Ask BMI and ASCAP. that is what they are there for.

MAB

Hi Marc,

I appreciate the advice, and can definitely see how collecting royalties would be a difficult matter for performing artists and singer-songwriters these days, with everything going free.
I'm wondering though... my goals and direction are geared more toward music for film/television. It would seem that a placement on a TV show would generate royalties, and that there would be enough of a paper trail for BMI or ASCAP that it would be worth it to have that affiliation. I'm really only taking the first steps of this journey, but it looks like most libraries want to know your affiliation when you submit your music, even before it has been accepted or rejected.

In any case, I'll keep on reading and will look forward to any further feedback you folks might have. Thanks again for your thoughts.

Best wishes,

Tim

Tim,

That is true. But remember there are a lot of different film and television uses. the major ones, in Los Angeles and New York are controlled by large conglomerates and so you are going to have the same difficulties that come with dealing with anything that is involved in millions of dollars. Those are the ones who really pay the money.

Much of the rest might be smaller cable shows, beds for commericals, etc. usually a few seconds of music with no vocals in a background scene. There are also small feature films but again, overall there is not a lot of money in these. If you have a cue sheet it is easier to find what they have done. Of course again, one of the problems people I know have encountered comes again from collecting money from small companies with very little budget.

When you sign major publishing contracts you usually sign about a dozen contracts and they are to cover these eventuallities. And there are about a dozen different pay rates for them as well.

Any way, there is a time to affiliate with one of the PRO's and doing that can be as easy as contacting them online and finding the procedures. I still maintain that there is not a lot of difference in any of them.

By the way, my first cut, by Shelby Lynne in 1990, was on a song called "That's Where it Hurts." It was in a television movie on CBS. So I do understand where you are coming from in needing information on this.

Good luck,

MAB

"I'm really only taking the first steps of this journey, but it looks like most libraries want to know your affiliation when you submit your music, even before it has been accepted or rejected" - Tim

Yes, many music libraries want to know your PRO before signing. If you have libraries interested in your work, it's probably a good idea to register with a PRO.

As far as registering as a publisher, most libraries want that role.

Best, John

Thanks Jon and Marc,

This is all very helpful.

It's free to join, so just join it. And then register your songs. And get all the information on the site you can. Believe me, the web site is confusing.
I belong to BMI and as someone said here; they never get to the phone or answer their e-mails, and the stupid thing is that once you register your songs, you can't edit or delete them. I made a mistake on my registering of songs and I wanted to edit them. I called the, no one answered; I left a message and no one returned my call. I e-mailed them and haven't heard from them.
It's very frustrating.

Also, with copyrights. I sent into copyrights a year and one half ago. They never cashed my checks, they never answered my e-mail, they never sent me a certificate of copyright.

IT'S CRAZY!

sYLVA

Sylvia

Sylvia,

It is because the US copyright office is backed up a minimum of three years just processing applications. Your song will be protected in around 2012.

M

Consider the following with a grain of salt. I've had some of my copyrighted material lost at the Copyright Office in their process of registering.

From the US Copyright Office:

"Whatever time is needed to issue a certificate, the effective date of registration is the day the Copyright Office receives a complete submission in acceptable form. You do not need to wait for a certificate to proceed with publication."

John

Thanks, John. But it's ridiculous. When I sent for copyright 5 years ago, I received the certificate in about 5 months.

Sylvia,

The Internet has caused an incredible rash of applications for everything from patent applications, book registrations for copyrights, pamphlets, songs, etc. If you have seen those commercials about "Registering your ideas for inventions" you get an idea of how widespread it is. For people to run those kinds of ads on mainstream television they are doing a ton of business. Those ads cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

There are approximately 30 million artists on the Internet. If you took just a few percent of those people, say 5 million, with those people filing for a percentage of songs, CD's, etc. you have probably 25 million songs easily. Since this subject is everywhere these days, how long do you think it takes to process those. And in addition, you have the applications from the past which are paper applications being updated to computer.

It is quite frankly mind boggling. How fast do you think technology travels. It triples about every month in how many people are involved. 5 years ago is a different era. Just like last month.

MAB

Marc,

You're right. Technologically things are changing at the speed of lightning. I wonder what the music business will be like a few years from now.

There are some (relatively few) licensing situations where you'll be entitled to both the writer's and the publisher's share of performance royalties. (needle drop libraries sometimes only take the sync fee and leave you all the back end) In that event, if you're with ASCAP, you need do nothing further to get both shares; with BMI, you need to pay an additional fee (I think it's $35) and register separately as a publisher.

If your music is available on the internet in any form, you are (technically) already a published songwriter, congratulations! ;-) You could wait 'til there's a deal on the table before signing up with a PRO, but if you seriously expect it to happen there's no reason to wait, imo. Go sign up at SoundExchange while you're at it; I'm aware of a couple of cases where music was used without clearance or even the writer's knowledge, and while it doesn't necessarily pay to be prepared, it don't hurt none, neither.

I registered my last copyright online (United States Copyright Office) in January of this year. I received the certificate in the mail last week. It took about three and a half months to get the certificate. My copyrights before this last one took longer.

Tim. I'm responding to your original question. Here are reasons to join a PRO:
1) You regularly are performing your songs live ( and can verify this). ASCAP has grants for which members who do this must apply each year. No guarantees are made that you'll get one, but at least you'll be eligible. I received such grants in the past when I performed my own songs live. I don't know what BMI or SESAC has to offer along these lines.
2) You have a release and you are the publisher. It's always a good idea to have your publishing entity affiliated with a PRO - and put it on your business card and any release.
3) If you want to take advantage of any of the services or programs that these PROs offer their members.

Interesting question. We were discussing this at the NSAI meeting here last week. I think you should join anytime you have a song - if you would like to for purposes of getting any information from the Pro. However, for purposes of getting paid any royalties, there is no point in joining until you have a song that has extensive performances or radio plays.


Tom

Dont get boged down with copyright, too many here want to copyright songs that are no where near finished.

As for PRO, there is no point unless you have great songs recorded and making money, 50 % of nothing is nothing so whats the point.

Your concentration should be on learning the art of song writing
and lyrics,

Post it here , that would be proof of ownership, Publishers would rather you did not copyright officialy, they like to do it.

Concentrate on writing great songs and that could take ten years at least, most here will never make it because they dont understand the writing process.

There are less opportunity's today Publishers are going out of business, songs are being stolen on the web. no one wants to buy your work, it's okay for live bands who write their own songs
they get the dosh via the gigs.

Matt, I agree with your points 1,3,4,5,&6. As for Point 2, since image is important in today's market, it does benefit a performer to belong to a PRO. Which unknown artist with great songs would be more impressive to a music supervisor, producer, or A&R guy - the one with BMI on his business card or the one without a PRO? Since the competition is so tight, any little advantage helps and joining a PRO is not expensive enough to make it cost prohibited.