JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum WINNIPEG, WHAT CAN BE DONE

Hello everybody,

MAB here from 20 below Winnipeg, and Manitoba, Cannida. This is day 9 of a 11 day trip. The reason I am here is because one of my Nashville clients, Janice Staradob, after making 6 trips down there with me, decided to create her own songwriter's universe here. It has turned out amazingly.

A year ago she did not know these people existed. She was a frustrated housewife, mother and teacher who wrote poetry and really wanted a hobby she could call her own. Her husband is a hockey inthusist,her kids all have activities, she wanted hers.

She started working with one singer, a young inexperienced guy who unfortunately embodied all the bad characteristics of artists, excessive ego, limited talents, and NO tangible skills in follow through or organization. he washed out early, but she kept going. She also deals with a daily illness from a nuromuscular condition which if she had maintained the Canadian health care system,would have died about two years ago. She got the help she needed from the Mayo Clinic in Minneapolis, but Health care is not the issue here.

This is about the ability we all have to construct our own communities. While I am known as the "Nashville guy" here, and I do love and embrace Twang Town, I really care only that writers and artists find a sense of community wherever they are, write the best songs they can, have ongoing shows, workshops, events that will help them find other like minded individuals. This community is one of those.

Through her efforts in a year, Janice has assembled over 35 artists,writers, bands, studio owners, become a primary member of the "Mannitoba Country Music Association", and surrounded herself with people that can help her and themselves take all of their music to another level.

I have had multiple writing (21 songs so far) and critique appointments, personal career advice, two shows, a major workshop and extensive intereaction with the whole group, done two television shows and various interviews. This is how it works.

So I wanted to pass on this information to you all, especially those who seem to be isolated from other writers,artists, etc. Those that feel you have to go to Nashville, New York, Los Angeles, Toronto, London, wherever.

The community you seek is probably around you.Artists are probably in your back yard. The pitch opportunities you are trying to find, might be in the corner pub.

Don't overlook what is around you. It is your job to find it.

If any of you have questions about what they are doing here or what I do in general, glad to answer. Got an appointment right now.

MAB

Welcome to Canada Mark, thanks for your contributions!

Mark, thank you for posting this. I have been reaching out through FB, trying to find local people to write with. The same thing happened to me...the first guy, we wrote a tune that has potential, but he's such a flake I won't hear from him for weeks and he drinks so much he can't remember what he played half the time. If I didn't know guitar at all, we'd be screwed! Then there was another guy...we were jamming, putting a couple of different song ideas together, and he got weird on me (I think he's paranoid delusional).

I'd be interested in knowing the details of how she met legit people and how she organized the musical society. Would she mind me e-mailing her? I have wanted to do something like what she did right here in Cincy. It's a big city and I'm sure there are like-minded individuals, but I just can't seem to find them. I've had more luck here on JPF than I have locally.

Polly, Sometimes it seems half the people you meet are crazy and the other half are only nuts. And it's not just musicians.

MAB has got the right idea about community and banding together for support. And so do you. MAB almost sounds like a socialist or a union guy.

I'M KIDDING, MAB!! I'M KIDDING!!

DAN, BITE YOUR TONGUE!!!! I am ANYTHING BUT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE!!!

But I do believe in neighborhoods and communities and supporting each other. As you saw last week, there are like minded individuals everywhere. It takes that to get us outside of ourselves. If you look at things a little differently, get out of your own way, a lot of things can be achieved.

What we did in Michigan last week is simply reignight some flames that were there anyway but needed to be fanned a bit. The same has happened up here. And pretty much wherever I go. As you have said, I am the pied piper.

In each area you find older experienced musicians frustrated because they feel they are at the end of their careers, dated in their approach and simply as far as they can go without moving to a place like Nashville but to relocate, start over etc. ain't in the cards.

Younger people and their parents who are targets for every "We'll pitch your songs to film and television" every "Use our studio and we'll get you a deal" every "This contest will be THE thing to propel you forward" scheme that are everywhere and often talked about on these boards.

I constantly read these sites, (I do about 5 of them) and feel the frustration from people that go "Then what?" What do I do with my songs? How do I get them heard?" Always a frustration of trying to feel talented but no where to go with it.

We have to create it. We have to nurture it. We have to invent what we can.

Polly, for 5 years I came to that area. There was a very active group of songwriters, artists, ongoing writer's nights, social circles. They were tremendously active.Then one by one, several moved to Nashville, lost their focus, quit caring for others, quit moving together, dropped out.The group foundered and while it is still going, most of the time it limps along.

But it is not just NSAI groups. There are always offshoot and smaller groups that get together just to get together. you have the makings of it. Haze and your own band members could begin it. have a social get together. Find out what their goals are. Find out how you can help them.

Help someobody else. It all comes back to you.

MAB

Post deleted by Marc Barnette

I'm still trying to figure out how all this Michigan stuff came about.
I lived 25 miles from Kalamazoo. I also went to Brown and Brown once.
When I had my small studio I tried many times to get something started there. I even offered free recording time to students. I had no takers.
I put flyers up in the music stores and attended a few open mics without success.
I tried several times to start a songwriting group. NADA
Went to the local government. They weren't interested


It wasn't until AFTER I moved to Nashville that I learned there was an NSAI chapter in Kalamazoo.

I might not have moved..... Naaaa I still woulda moved

I still would have moved. I like the weather. Heck we have flowers blooming here already.

Bill,

You keep looking at this wrong. Think about it for a minute. You went to Brown and Brown but did very little interaction with the people there. Think of what you said: "I went....once." That doesn't build any relationships.

It is a RECORDING STUDIO. Why are people supposed to support your RECORDING STUDIO when you didn't give any support to them, they didn't know who you were, you didn't attend the NSAI group, you didn't go to any of their shows, you didn't participate in any of their writer's nights, you didn't go to one show that Jimbeau Hinson and I did up there (I came about 12 times in a five year period) you didn't share anything other than putting up a shingle doing the same thing that the RECORDING STUDIO that WAS providing a meeting place for the group, allowing them to record for FREE. And while you might have attended a few nights, you didn't do much more than show up. I know you my friend. i have to sand blast you out of your house to do anything that might help you.

Also, they were established at Brown and Brown. Kevin Brown had been a musician and friend of musicians for 20 years in that area. How much had you done?And THEY were giving away FREE time too. That was a HELL of a great studio. Not a home studio.

Now why are they supposed to have supported you?

Out of that they have always had about 25 at every NSAI meeting,they have had dozens of shows going on, song circles, everytime I am there I meet about 25 more people than I have met before. So what am I doing that you didn't do?

The same thing I do in Nashville, in Winnipeg, in San Diego, in Atlanta Georgia. I particpate and show them how to help themselves. In Nashville EVERYBODY has a studio. Why don't you come on up to Michigan right now and try to sell them some snow?
They ALREADY GOT ENOUGH!!!

Out of Kalamazoo came Frankie Ballard. On the charts right now. He was playing five nights a week all over that town. Which one of those shows did you make?

Shelagh Brown (the daughter of Brown and Brown) is one of the favorites of Troy Tomlinson,the president of Sony, who signed Frankie and wants to sign Shelagh. She left Nashville today after writing songs and doing shows. She did two shows at Winners and the Commodore last week. Which one did you go to? Did you go up and meet her and tell her she did good?

Christine Parri has a weekly show at Winners on Tuesdays. About 25 artists out there. How many are you meeting? Been to Doak's lately? Written with any of them lately?

So Bill it all happens the SAME way. Want to have people help you? Give them a reason to help you. You HELP THEM. You support THEM. For a while I saw you down at Beer For Breakfast at Tootsies. But that stopped when Gary got overloaded and ghermed like crazy. But there are dozens more each week.

So which ones are you supporting. Answer that and you will find out how that Kalamazoo thing happened.

EVERYBODY READING THIS LEARN IT NOW!!!!!

THE MUSIC BUSINESS IS NOT ABOUT WRITING YOUR SONGS, SITTING IN YOUR LIVING ROOM, PAYING SOME SERVICE TO DO THINGS FOR YOU!!!
It has never been about that and never will be.

Even if you have no interest in the business, if you are not building RELATIONSHIPS YOU ARE MISSING THE BOAT. PERIOD.

I post this stuff not for me but to show what has been done. I show that people are making it, are being involved, are advancing whether it is in their own backyard or in the major leagues. If things are not happening for you, sometimes you've got to LOOK IN THE MIRROR.

MAB

HOW IT HAPPENS

In Kalamazoo, or here in Winnipeg, it usually starts with one person. That person usually needs to be someone that can supply the general group something they can't do themselves. It might be the drive to organize a social gathering and set some rules. It might be someone that marshalls a writers night.It might be someone who is very talented and everyone wants to emulate. But it is always one person that keeps things off.

In my social gatherings, I push them to do a few things:

#1. Co-write. At least 4 songs a month. If you can't write four songs a month, you are not a writer. Having goals and deadlines bring discipline. Have to write crap to get to the good ones. If you don't write a lot of songs you don't have anything to base it on. You don't know what the crap is.
Co-writing helps you get out of your way. Two heads are better than onit doubles your chances. If other people have a proprietary interst in that song they are more likely to contribute to their success.

#2. Have regular meetings,social gatherings open mics, and writers showcases. If you have a practical application for your songs, you are more than likely to want to write more. You want to get the best of the best.

#3. Make trips to a music center. Pairing up with other people push your own creativity and share expenses.

#4. Write songs for other artists. Even if you are an artist and ESPECIALLY if you are not, you have to get things to other people.

#5.Involve the community. Doing fundraisers, making money for the venues, involving the school system, the media, charities.

In every case, with the groups I have been involved in, there have been that one person and all of them have done reasonably well.

#1. Julie Moriva. School teacher, wife and mother. From NSAI coordinator to writing for Big Machine publishing. Best friends and main inspiration to Megan and Josh of Steel Magnolia. Befriended them early and now has her first major cut.

#2. Cliff and Bev Nelson. Orange County California. NSAI coordinators for 8 years. Forming an inside writers group, culminating in an 18 person Nationwide group represented by Sharp Objects, one of Nashville's best independent song pluggers.
Multiple artists in the group have gone on to success. Ciff, and two others have formed "THE LOSERS" musical comedy group, that performs all over the Southern California coast. Recently did a show with the Four Tops.

Have dozens of songs with artists in Nashville.

#3. Rene Mauve, Kalamazoo Michigan. Rene, is a hispanic guitarist and singer with a very well known local and regional Tejano band, Los Bandits. Has a dozen artists coming to him for material. runs the "Chili Peppers songwriting" group, who meet once a week to write and promote their music. One of the Chili Peppers, Shelagh Brown, has the new duet with Josh Gracin, recently opened for James Otto and others, and probably will have a deal within a year. Most of her songs are written by Rene and others.
Rene was the one who found Frankie Ballard. He has several songs with Frankie, who is on Warner Brothers records. Rene has an open door with Troy Tomlinson, president of Sony Music.

#4. Cincinatti Ohio NSAI group. Greg Althamer and multiple others opened publishing and recording contacts in Nashville.Several moved to Nashville and are pursuing publishing deals.Also represented by Sharp Objects and others. Open doors in several areas in town.

#5. Janice Staradob, Winnipeg Canada. One year ago, didn't know any artists existed around her. Working with one artist, she has grown that to 30 bands, artists, duos, solos, bands. All sharing material and resources. Access to a state of the art recording studio, showcase opportunities, television and media interests. Packed showcases have led to tons of more opportunities.

These are just a few of the people I have worked with but have taken the inititive on their own to push everything to the next level.

Activity-Proximaty-Opportunities.

That is the way it happens.

MAB

Mark, I think you'd be surprised to know what's currently going on with the Dayton/Cincinnati NSAI chapter (details to come later). It is not by any stretch of the imagination "limping" along, and I think any of the other members would be shocked to hear someone say that.

Kevin,

I would love to hear from those guys. The last time I was up there,that was what they told me. If it is going back great that is wonderful and what should be happening. What happens in almost all groups is "coordinator burn out" which happens at about five years. They get overwhelmed by trying to keep events going on, people motivated, etc. and trying to keep their own music going.

Since the coordinators set the tone, if they drop out, it takes a period of re-organization to come in. That usually takes a couple of years.

I see these same people every year at the NSAI coordinators training at Tin Pan south week and NSAI's Spring Training. Actually there are several of the Pro writers who are the "Adopt a shop" members. That is generally when we all check in with each other and catch up.

That is when members will tell what is going on and that is what a couple of them told me. When I was up there for the Taste of Clermont festival two years ago, I had heard the same thing. "Limped along' is probably not the right choice of words,more just trying to find it's footing.

If there are continuous things that keeps the group motivated, shows, meetings, critiques, special events, and they are doing things then they are doing fine. I am glad to hear it. It is always the hardest thing to keep motivation going.

So like everything I am happy to admit when I am wrong and thanks for letting me know. I can only go on what I am told.

Then you can tell people what is going on with the group up there. What activities, what progress people are making individually and as a group.

The point of this whole thread is about getting into other things in your community, and as songwriters, getting together to share ideas, experiences as songs, shows, etc. I am trying to show that by building local communities, it can deliver larger benefits for everyone. And it is not just NSAI groups, it is songwriting circles, where people play songs, do critiques, offer suggestions. Writer's shows, bringing special guests, doing workshops.

My point of all of this is that writers can only do so good in the living room. They need to step out and get around other writers. And when there are so many conversations about pitch services, ASCAP, BMI, Reverbnation, TAXI, etc. I think a lot of people miss that. When it comes to music, this is a one on one experience, and the only real way to do that is getting out there and do it.

The songwriter groups provide opportunitites for that. In my opinion that is the only way to really get it done.

Glad the group is doing well. Tell them I said hi.

MAB

Marc
You are misunderstanding
I spent two years trying to find people to work with. I didn't know about NSAI until right before I left.
I went to the Box factory. Did some open mics there. Great place but they were all kids. Teenagers. I really could not relate to them.
Obviously you offer something I cannot. You are a Nashville insider and anyone will jump at the chance to meet you or show up.
I visited Brown and Brown once. To check it out. I wanted to get a look at a professional grade studio. What I offered was a smaller version. But it was a decent setup.
Out where I lived there was no one doing recording and most of the folks I talked to couldn't afford Brown and Brown.
I offered FREE recording time to the area students. NO ONE took advantage of it. NOT ONE in two years.

I went to open mics. When I could find one. There was no one there.
Maybe two or three 20 year old's.
I was trying to get something going around where I lived. I didn't want to travel to Kalamazoo for everything.

I had Flyers up in every music store in Kalamazoo. I never received a single call in two years.

You make it sound like I never reached out to folks. That's not the case. I finally gave up.

Even here in Nashville I have tried. You even introduced me to a few and I attempted to get something started and NO ONE CAME.
All I got was well I can't do it that day the kids are home or the husband might be sick or it might rain.
Excuses.
All talk and no action.
If you go to Doak's there are a lot of folks there. I don't know what it takes to get togetehr with someone but obviously I ain't doing it because I have offered and no one has responded. Maybe it's just me. They don't like me.
But like you say. What can I offer them. Nothing. I haven't had a cut I haven't got name recognition. If the only way to get "In" is if I have something to offer then I guess it ain't gonna happen.

I am not interested in begging any one to do anything. I offer, if they turn it down then I don't offer again.

Bill,

Unless something is really pressing, I would go to Doak's every single time -- even if I wasn't going to play. You hear amazing talent and are around a lot of talented songwriters.

But you should try and play at least one tune if you are there.

Kevin

Hey Bill,

Chin up mate !

Yep, it's a real hard one. How do you be involved and meet other like minded people like yourself, doing something that you love to do ?

Since folks are telling their own story, well, here's mine.... ( I'll be brief, unlike Mr Motormouth )

As a young fellow, I'd always played music ( piano ) then got into the keys, and joined a cover band. Thankfully, we had a really good manager, who got "out there" and got the gigs. I was 20 at the time, but my band mates and the manager were in their 30's , knew the scene and knew how it worked. Knew evey club manager in town, and hence got the gigs. A great income, plus "bonuses". My wife jokes now, that she only married me because on her first date, I took her to ALL the best clubs in town, got in for free, and eveyone knew me. ( Of course ! I was playing there, or would be, next week ) A few TV gigs, and some session work as it came along.

Next, we moved to London, as I was interested in musical theatre, and my wife was a dancer. ( Proper one, classically trained ) We knew no-one except for a couple of loose leads. We got out there, myself studying music just off the West End ( behind the Coke sign ) and the girlfriend auditioning and taking classes in and around Covent Garden. Lived in a one room flat with the snow coming in. We did that for 2 yrs, and in that time met some wonderful people. People who could see your interest, and in tern would be interested themselves. We weren't there to "make it", we were there to learn.

Neither of us "made it". But the experience was invaluable, being around those that had, being invited here and there, and being around those folks imparting their knowledge, to others who were interested. ( If you were dunb enough to gherm, I don't think you'd be invited anywhere ) And the beer wasn't half bad too !

Due to personal circumstance ( death ) we found ourselves back in Oz agian. After regrouping, the wife at the ripe old age of 30, says "I want to be a sound engineer, my knees are giving up, and I need a "real" job." I said "What the heck do you know about sound recording ? " Anyways, she did the course, and because we were watching a band one night and I wondered over to the audio guy and said "My wifes doing an audio course, do you mind if she sits in ? ", the guy says "Yep, no problem", and said trainee gets on the job experience for the next year lifting heavy equipment and learning reality, whilst doing the prescribed course.

Said trainee is now an Audio Director for a major TV network, and can if she wishes, fly all over the world to do the major events.

Meanwhile, your truely has decided that there is just no money in music anymore and totally quits it for ten yrs, gets a real job, and we raise a family.

Enter ( ten yrs later ) a film producer friend, who is doing a short, and is complaining about the lack of decent composers available whilst sitting around my pool guzzling ( my ) beer. The wife pops up and says "Oh, that's Ok, Geoff will do it for you" Film producer is quite shocked, that in knowing me for the past 7 yrs, I've never mentioned that I'm a musician, and have recorded for many years and did what I did. Anyways, after passing the "you're a related person, but probably not very professional test", he sent me the vision. I did the score, and sent it back. He thinks it works well, and he sends it off to the audio engineer for final mixdown. He doesn't hear back. Neither do I. He finally contacts the engineer to see if eveything is going Ok. Response ? " Mate, it's perfect, didn't even need to EQ it " Great relief all around......

And who was the engineer ?

The origional lecturer form the Australian Institute of Music, from my wife's course, 10 yrs previous.

So, I'm thinking I'm doing Ok, and fall across this internet site called JPF. Hmm, looks interesting. There's guys actually producing music, and having fun along the way. And I'm working with great people, and actually producing music again.

I'm an internet musician. It used to be a derisive term. No longer I think.

Anyways Bill, it's entirely up to you. As MAB says, if you don't involve yourself, others won't involve you. As someone who sits on the ass end of the world, if I can involve myself, then so can you.

Sorry for the long winded rant, but I just needed to get that out. Big sigh, and time for a beer.

cheers ( real ones ) niteshift

pretty cool story, niteshift.

Hey Kevin,

Thanks bud, just wanted to say that's the way it is mate. And if enough folks do the same, like MAB and others, then perhaps songwriters will become real songwriters, and actually be INVOLVED in what they do, rather than say "look at my next piece of brilliance on Youtube".

I'm glad eveything went well MAB. Geez you can talk, but you get the message across well.


cheers, niteshift

Nite shift. I guess it is long winded but some people still don't seem to get it. Doesn't matter how short or long you talk.
A lot of threads just seem to miss it all.

Marc...I get it! Always taking notes when you post, and seriously, your time, effort, and advice is appreciated!

Hey Marc,

Yeah, sometimes I can see you literally banging your head on the desk in front of the monitor until it bleeds, in order to get a point across.

The example you have given, is actually how the world of music works.

It works upon how much YOU put in, not on how much you can take.

People will seek you out, and involve you in their projects, because you're a good fit. Not necessarily brilliant, but a good fit, easy to work with, easy going, and no ego.

AND, for any project, couldn't give a toss about a resume or previous credits. It really is about relationships, and a willingness to be involved in the creative aspect. The pay day comes later, in one form or another.

Just keep doin' it Marc. It is working, from what I see. You just need a lot of bandages on your forehead.

cheers, niteshift

I have the head of a Karate guy. Years of built up callouses. This is all easy. I deal with the music industry.

MAB

That's a great story Nite. Sounds like you and your misses are doing great.

I'm not sure how your story lines up with what I was saying or Marc's points.

You were not doing any music for ten years. Even your friend of 7 years didn't know you did any music when out of the blue he gives you an opportunity to produce some music. It came about while sitting alongside the pool drinking a few beers. Now you are an "Internet Musician"
I'm not sure how that fits with "getting yourself out there".

Am I missing something?

As for Marc's posts? I think Marc has a great system of reaching and helping folks move along on the business of music.
He knows of what he speaks.
I personally have no illusions of ever making it "big" in the business of songwriting.
I would like to meet a few like minded folks who would like to get together and play songs and write together.
One problem I have is performance anxiety. I don't do well in large crowds or around strangers. I prefer smaller groups and groups where I know the folks. That makes it difficult to develop relationships.

This point, or question, of "what can you offer them" is interesting.
I get the feeling that if you don't have a cut or some name recognition you are going to have a hard time getting together with anyone who has any talent to speak of. If they already have contacts and can write decent songs why do they need me?
I was approached by one person to get together. The person couldn't write, couldn't play, and my cat sings better.
So I guess it's true. If I don't have anything you want why write with me?

"This point, or question, of "what can you offer them" is interesting."

That is really a big key in all this. In Marc's group he has some really good up and coming writers (non-artists) that are actively doing co-writes. Now, having a choice, would they want to write with me -- or an up and coming artist with drive who will perform the song, maybe do a demo, maybe put it on their CD and has their own set of contacts in Nashville? Pretty much a no-brainer.

If that writer has some down time or isn't busy at the moment, then they might write with me to see what I can do or to just "be nice". But under normal circumstances, they have to go write with the "artist". Since there are no cuts to be had for existing "stars", you have to find the new, up and coming folks. And you have to find A LOT of them, because as we know, success is tough and fleeting.

It is what it is.

Kevin

Kevin
One of the first questions I get asked when I go to Doak's or anywhere else is. Have you had any cuts? Once I say no the person usually moves on to someone else.
I can understand that. Everyone is looking for that person who can move them up another step on the ladder.
I have met the folks in Marc's group here in Nashville. Nice bunch of folks. It's clear they work well together and have some real talent in the group.
I have attended a few of there events. I haven't been invited to get together with any of them yet. But I don't have anything to offer that they don't already have.

EDIT THAT
that sounded like I expected to be invited in. I didn't mean it that way. I meant I have not spent enough time getting to know them. That is my responsibility not theirs.

You have life experiences that can translate into great song ideas.

I would never ask anyone that I just met if "they have had a cut". I think that was an anomoly.

Kevin

Marc
I think you are going a little far with your assessment of ME.

You don't Know me. You have no idea what I did or did not do in Michigan.
I got started in this in early 2004.
I didn't do anything during most of 2005 and 2006. I was dealing with Cancer and some other issues
What I did know of Kalamazoo was the blues scene. I use to go to the blues clubs. I really enjoy Blues music.
I also recorded a few of the local area bands (not Kalamazoo). They were mostly into Metal or Hard rock but we did pretty good work. I had a young Latin group who came in once in a while as well. Central American. They were from a local church.
One of the Bands had recorded at Brown and Brown and was happy there was a place closer to home to record.
But they were into metal. I wasn't. So it was mostly a business relationship.

I lived about 30 miles west of Kalamazoo. I was interested in doing things in my area. I approached the schools, the City, and local folks trying to get something started. I approached a few Coffee shops about open mics. NADA no one was interested.
I even worked at one during the construction of it. I tried there as well. It is in Paw Paw.
There use to be a small hot dog shop in Paw Paw that did open Mics. It was where I first started going. There were a few local kids who played there but it closed down after a few months.
Paw Paw was 15 miles away.
You once told me I lived to far outside Nashville. I live 14 miles from Downtown.

I didn't have much of a handle on the Kalamazoo area. I didn't live there and didn't go there much. I had been a member of NSAI in Nashville for about a year before I even knew there was a Chapter in Kalamazoo.

I received an E-mail from Rene (I am pretty sure it was Rene) about an event with Walt Aldridge. Interestingly enough I had already met Walt Aldridge prior to that. I think that was my first contact. I was already in the process of moving to Tennessee.
That was nearly 4 years ago. Interestingly I continued receiving updates from the Kalamazoo NSAI chaper after I moved to Nashville. I wish I had known about those guys while I was still there.
I have never received a thing from NSAI Nashville except a notice to renew my subscription.

The biggest thing that happened to me was I got a call from the Producers of the TV show MADE. They were looking for a local studio to record one of their episodes. Can you believe that. I had the possible opportunity to record for a National Television Show.
I doubt I would have actually been chosen. I only had a 1200 square foot converted barn to record in. Not much invested. Only about $12,000.00
As far as I know I was the ONLY place to record music in a 20 mile radius.
BUT
I had already started my move to Tennessee. All my equipment was in Tennessee.

I've been here almost 3 years and you are right
I don't get out much.
But I'm old. Who's interested in an old man with no cuts.

None of this detracts from the success you have had with other groups. Those folks are lucky to have access to your help and services.

Damn, Bill! Didja have to go and talk about me like that???

Hey Bill,

All I'm saying is that stuff does come out of the blue, and there's more than one way to skin a cat.

You sound a little down, in that what you expect after trying one way, doesn't really work for you.

How about trying another way ?

I never thought I'd do music again. As I was a commercial musican, and the work simply wasn't there, I thought it was all over red rover. ( It sill is, there is no money in music )

But one thing leads to another, and you're up and running again.

I don't think distance is a big thing anymore. As one who is on the ass end of the world, the only way I can write with others is via the internet. Would this work for you ?

The Nashville model is only one of many. Maybe you're only looking at stuff from that perspective ?

I think what Marc does is great, very uplifting, but it requires a critical mass to keep itself going.

Do you think you could be an internet musican ? There's plenty of them around, and like me, they don't have a critical mass of folks in their same area to work with.

cheers, niteshift

Ps - if you form the "Old Codgers With No Cuts Club", can I be the secretary ?

Hi Guys and Gals:

This thread has woven itself all over the place. I especially enjoyed Niteshift's story. Inspiring!

Marc, a few years ago I wrote and recorded a song a day for a couple of months. It was a learning experience and I created a small mountain of "ear bruisers"... LOL! Interestingly, I sometimes wander back through that section of my catalog and find material that can be "re-constituted into something more suitable for humans consumption.

Bill, what can I say? Michigan is a land of inspiration and contradiction... but I believe you made the right move.

Polly, you're on the right track. Reach out and explore the possibilities. I'm pleased that you decided to stick around. Whenever I need a good laugh... you always have a way of just lighting up the room for us with your humor.

Always remember that "failure is evidence that you are trying!"
Many would say that "I've been very trying all my life."

Dave

Hey guys,

Back in Nashville after 15 days out. I sometimes find it hard on things like this, because I don't know each and every person in the world. But I do know songwriter and entertainers and the types of mentalities they have. I understand the human condition when it comes to the arts, writers, singers, poets, authors,etc.
I am pretty well versesed on history and biographies on people who have done this throughout life, not to mention the people in Nashville who are hit writers and artists.

I also have had a nearly 20 year career dealing face to face with these songwriting groups and individuals nearly worldwide, from every walk of life, every vocation, every age bracket, every income level.

I can only offer up what I see, what I am involved with and the people that take these things the next step. And I am only one person, there are many others doing similar things with people, Song U, TAXI, Barbara Cloyd, and tons of other teachers, and instructors, in colleges and privately, that are trying to do.

Bill,

I don’t know that I am misunderstanding anything. I hear it continually. “I can’t find anyone, there is no one around, I did this…once.” To be honest with you, the reason I have a job,working with people is because of that exact attitude. But I have yet to go to any place that I didn’t pretty much immediately find a “scene” that already existed. In Decemeber I wqas in New Hampshire with 25 songwriters who told me there was no scene. First of all the fact that there were 25 songwriters in the middle of no where New Hampshire should tell you something. Then I went to the local entertainment paper and found 18 local open mics and writers nights.

So it is there. It is always there.

The second part of your comments are “I did this and I did that… even offered it for FREE. Fine. Let’s look at that for a moment. yLet's say You are a 20 hear old college student. Male and female.You have very little money and are trying to find your own way through the clubs, open mics, poetry slams, etc.

An over 40 guy who is not around very often, nobody seems to know, openly claims he is not good with people or groups, approaches you to come record for FREE in his studio that is not in town, nobody knows about or has any examples of his work. What does that sound like to you?

Let’s see: Unabomber. Jeffery Dahmer. The one guy in every neighborhood that people don’t really know about that ends up on the National news when they find body parts all over his house and in his basement? Come on man. Take a look at how other people view this.

It is the same thing with music. You FIRST have to SHOW people what YOU can do for them.

I have talked to dozens of hit writers, producers, record labels,publishers, managers, agents, and I always ask a question, "What should I tell people when I am trying to help them pull their careers together?"

It is almost always something like this:

"people sit down with us and ask the wrong questions. They want to know what WE are going to do for THEM. That is the wrong question. "What are You going to do for ME?" Is the question.

That is what you have to ask.Everything in music is about what YOU can bring to someone else's life. If it is a song going out to a listener, how is that going to make their life better from hearing it? If it is another co-writer, "What can you help them do that they can't do themselves or with someone else they know?
If it is a publisher, how much are you going to increase your bottom line, are you writing with artists? Are you helping pitch your own songs?

If it is anything, it is all about perseverance.

You talk about trying to get people to write with you. EVERYONE who does this is turned down. Most writers who come here go through about 100 rejections before you even get one person to write with. And it is not just writers. When I first moved to town after about six months I did a series of three showcases for labels and publishers. I was paying for rehersals and the shows. I had 37 musicians agree to do the shows and rehersals and then drop out very uncerimoniously, as they got better or other gigs or just decided they didn't want to do it. That was in two weeks.

Rejection is the only thing you will get continually in this business. And you can decide what how much you want to deal with.

On this past trip we had a couple of people drop out of the appointments. Four to five people stepped up and wanted their appiontments, so much that I had to extend my trip by three days.

This is what it is. Always.

The last thing I would say about your comments was talking about "one guy who was old, couldn't write, didn't know what he was doing" that describes about 85% of the people I work with. My job is to show them the process and try to pull them along. I am trying to teach by doing and while I am paid for it now, this is something I have done pretty much my entire music career, helping other people up and pulling them along.

So I think instead of complaining that he might not have been at a certain level you should have worked harder to pull things together and make them work.

I have even brought you together with someone in hopes that would help push you into doing it more and learning that you have to do what you can.

This is about showing up. But it is also about energizing other people and make them want to work with you. There is only so much any one person can do. Just have to make the best of what you can.

MAB

Hey, watch it now! (ha, ha).

Kevin, You're a 15 percenter.

So now I am compared to The Unabomber and Jeffery Dahmer.
Great



Where did you get that from? I said I have performance anxiety in groups or around strangers. I never said I wasn't good with people.
You make it sound like I had to be an established rock star to start a business in an area where no other business offering the same serviced existed. That offering the local area students a place to play and be recorded was a bad thing. It was part of my marketing plan.
Brown and Brown was 35 miles away from where I was.
I never tried to do much in Kalamazoo because I did not live there.
You can't play open mics if there are none around.
That was what I was trying to do. Get something started in the area where I lived.
The only thing that happened was some of the kids I reached out to decided it was easier to steal my stuff and play at home in their own living room.

I wish I had Known about the NSAI group in Kalamazoo. I would have joined there. Instead I drove 500 miles to Nashville and joined there. I also attended NSAI thursday nights every month for almost a year. As well as going to the Bluebird, working with Barbara Cloyd, and Richard's when ever I was in town. I also went to Doaks when I was in town.

Marc
I am not complaining about my lack of contacts here in Nashville. I have not been around much. I get out once in a while but to be honest I have too many other things going on for me to get very involved.
And lets face it. Even in your "Group" I am the old man. None of those kids are going to want to hang around with me. Oh, I am sure they would if I was an established writer or performer but I am not.

You did introduce me to a few folks to write with. I did attempt to get together with them and it didn't work out.
No matter. There are other folks to meet.
Heck My neighbor plays Bluegrass and lives 200 feet from me. I've been here over two years and we still have not played together.

Now Bill, the comparison could have been a lot worse, like ... hmmm ... errr, .... -- OK it couldn't have been any worse.

Kevin

Maybe he's right

Bill,

In the life of anything in music now, anyone over the age of 30 is an old man. I always love to watch reruns of an interview Mick Jagger gave in 1965 on the BBC. He said

"I think we'll probably be hanging it up in a couple of years. I mean who wants to see some old guy like 25 prancing around singing rock and roll."

What we all live with.

MAB