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I think Big Jim was merely pointing out that, if you do believe in the Bible and the teaching of Jesus as portrayed in the Bible, that you also have to acknowledge that he had a Socialist approach to things.

That is probably the most frustrating aspect of discussing anything with someone of the Christian faith... in order to respect their beliefs, you also have to accept the fact that their beliefs won't allow them to respect yours. It's a hard thing to do. And then, in order to argue a point, you have to frame it in the context of their beliefs instead of your own.

To me, that is the single largest reason why these conversations can never go anywhere... and there's really no way around it.

And when someone disrespects your beliefs while you are making an effort to respect theirs, it's hard to resist the desire to push back a bit.

Everything, regardless of how much you believe it is infallible, is open to interpretation. People have been picking and choosing Bible passages to promote love, hate, tolerance, bigotry, everything in between. They'll all claim they have the right of it, and that everyone else is misguided or lost.

If I were the creator of all, I would choose a medium less open to interpretation to present salvation to my creations (if such a thing were even necessary). If there were a chance that one of them would be lost for eternity because my words were unclear or being taken out of context, I would find a way to bring clarity again. If I were to forgive them, I would not require anything. Forgiveness by itself, is an act of compassion that moves beyond the ego. True forgiveness requires nothing but the act itself.

So am I a more understanding and compassionate person than God is a creator, or is it possible that we, and our religions, project our own jealousy, ego, need for control, on God? That we created God in our image so that we can feel in the right, wage our wars, practice our hipocrisy with the excuse of a sinful nature, so that we don't have to truly change or acknowledge our own uncertainties about what comes next. Better to trust someone else's words and come up with things like faith so that we can move beyond the search, embrace false security, and move on with our short little lives.

...and then occasionally argue about it with others along the way.

Well Tim,
You have stumbled on a very true but obscure fact. That is that the Bible was all written by Imperfect Human Beings! Of that begs a question that a lot of people ignore. How could an imperfect person ever get anything right??? Kinda gets you, don't it!

It's definitely a think piece.

But Tim YOU ARE FORGIVEN, Jesus made that available on the cross, you just have to accept and believe it, He will not force you to do so. He paid for your sins but if you refuse that payment as valid, then you are still responsible to pay for your own sins.

Everett,
If Jesus died on the Cross for my sins, it is all done isn't it? Why do I have to do anything? If I have to do it myself, Jesus may as well just stayed home. But In Matthew 2:2 it says the Wise Men were looking for the new born baby, born King of the Jews not Savior of the Universe. Why do people keep ignoring that little fact? Of course you will never hear that in any Church sitting. Read John 3:16. A favorite verse spouted by many religious people. In the first part of the Verse God gave us a "Gift" When you give something to someone it is theirs, is it not? But in the second part of the verse God Yanks it back, of which makes it no Gift at all. So John 3:16 adds up to zero. But that little fact is ignored by religious folks.

What is that saying? There are many False Prophits. Someone needed to look in the mirror.

Columbus was looking for India. So how come we're not India?

He got more than he was looking for. So did we. The wise men were not prophets. Neither was Herod. John the Baptist was, and he got it right in Matthew he says: " 'Repent for the king of heaven has come near. This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: 'A voice of one calling in the wilderness, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.'" Notice that he did not say the king of the jews...but the king of heaven.

But again, if one does not believe, then they simply do not believe. It sometimes amazes me that folks who do not believe in heaven or hell get mad at those who do. It's like offering someone who is hungry a nice dinner, but they do not believe there will really be a dinner so they do not come, then they get mad at you for offering the dinner because they are hungry.

I've had a long journey through religion and faith, philosophy, and history, and have concluded that it is best to keep things simple.

I believe in the One God Of Abraham, who is the One God of Moses, Jesus and Mohammed, Peace Be Upon Them All.

I try to live as much as possible by Gods's commandments and Aristotle's Golden Mean.

The rest is too complicated for me and, as many have pointed out, the product of a fallible humanity.

That allows me to see us all, including atheists, as being on a personal journey to God.

Atheists must have some idea of what it is they deny, (because they are dishonest if they simply dismiss God out of hand) and those who rely entirely on faith in a complicated story study the Torah, Bible (Old and New Testaments)and the Holy Koran for lessons to apply to their lives. Every one is thinking about God.

Now what would be really nice is if we could focus not on how we differ, and try to convert others to believe in those differences because 'we" do, but focus on how much we are the same. That, to me, is far more productive than quarreling over "proof" of why "our version" is the right one.

I am reminded of a couple of Statements I have heard from the past.

One, we are living in Babel. I think that means Confusion. If so you can take that to the Bank. Most are surely living in Confusion when it comes to Religion.

Two. God said it, I believe it, so don't confuse me with facts!
Well we have more than enough facts to go around, don't we?

No one said Herod was a Prophet. According to History he was a Arab Practicing Jew, appointed Governor by the Romans of whatever the place is we know known as Iseral.

Actually there are no Prophets. Except those man made.

The Wise Men, if there ever were any, were Astrologers who most likely saw Astrology aspects that they thought indicated the birth of a Savior for the Jews. Matthew 2:2. Did they screw up by going looking for that person. Jesus didn't exactly work out as expected now, did he? The Star of David, or whatever it was called, has been recogonitered to be the Triple Conjuction of Jupiter and Saturn in the year 7 BC or around that time. As some of you may know, there is no record of when the Wise Men took their trip, if they did, and exactly when Jesus was born. There are only educated guesses. And as some of you know, Jesus never wrote anything down. Everything we read that he said is second hand information or worse.

There are many disagreements over Religion. Why? Because we are living in Babal! I don't do em, I just report 'em.

It's not the dinner offer that's the problem. It's the insistence that unless you eat THEIR dinner and only THEIR dinner and no other dinner, then you'll starve to death regardless of what you decide to eat.

It's like, thanks, but I have plenty of dinner choices, so why are you telling me if I don't eat your dinner I'm going to die horribly? Pardon my insolence, but that sounds a little crazy.

And in extreme cases, the chefs love to tell those who refuse their dinner that not only will they die, but they'll deserve to die because they're fundamentally hungry in a way that no other dinner will satiate and it doesn't matter how good of a person you are, in the end you'll die because you didn't eat what they offered, and you'll deserve it, and good riddance, dinner-refuser!

The next time someone "gets mad" it might be wise to examine what's actually being offered: dinner, or the threat of starvation. A lot of people seem unhealthily obsessed with the latter.

I think Tim nailed it. That someone believes in heaven/hell is not the problem. The problem arises when that person demands respect for a belief system that requires them to disrespect others.

Scott, you said:

"The next time someone "gets mad" it might be wise to examine what's actually being offered: dinner, or the threat of starvation."

My analogy was poor. I'm not threatening someone with starvation, just offering dinner. If they don't believe they are going to starve, they don't have to accept my invitation. But here's the rub, they don't believe they will starve, but are mad that I am offering them food anyway. Who's being disrespectful?

However, if I believe someone could be starving and DON'T offer them dinner. That would really be disrespectful.

God bless you folks. It's good to discuss such things.

I keep things really simple: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

That won't be good enough for the God of Christians. But, if I can manage to live by it through thick and thin, it will be good enough for me.

Scott

I really appreciate all the dinner offers! It's just that the food is invisible to me. I can't see it, feel it or taste it, and when I try to eat it anyway, I'm still hungry. The nice folks who offer it seem to be enjoying it though, so I try to be polite when I decline.

To the faithful, beliefs are facts. This goes for those who have faith in science as well as for those who have faith in scripture. So as much as I accept Tim's assertion that "their beliefs won't allow them to respect yours", I also find the same to be true in reverse. For every Christian who wants to stop two people from marrying, there's an atheist who wants to prevent someone from praying. There is a lot of wiggle room in the interpretation of both secular truths and biblical truths, so I wish we could all work harder on supporting rather than hindering one another.

Good, Mark. I'm a Christian and I don't want to stop anyone from doing anything they want to do as long as it's not harming others. And though you decline, remember, you are always welcome.

Scott, you are indeed a good man. And you also are always welcome.

Who was it came up with that golden rule thing?

The difference between an Atheist and a person who believes in one God is exactly that one God. Throughout history there have been roughly 2800 God's. Thus, when it comes down to it, that's a very small percentage of difference - as the God believer and the Atheist only differ in opinion by 1. Obviously this percentage changes a little if you believe in paganism. And if you believe in Hinduism, then we're talking upwards of several hundred million Gods and Goddesses.

That this little difference creates such a huge problem for some people is absolutely mind boggling and baffling.

In the immortal words of Rodney King: Can we all just get along?

Tim Nailed it.....It is not so much what religious people believe in that is the problem...it is their assumption and sometimes arrogance that they are divinely right and everyone else must follow suit and blindly obey and do as they do or face the consequences either in this life or in any afterlife. I would never stop anyone from praying or having a church service or whatever else they wanted to do as part of their religion.....as long as such act does no harm to others.
So why do religious people not follow the same principles?..... they traditionally have had laws made to force people to do things according to religious beliefs ....whether we believe in those ways or not......over the years in different religions and countries laws have been made preventing contraception, abortion, genetic experiments, certain medical procedures like blood transfusions or organ transplants, homosexuality...also repression of women, divorce, alcohol consumption, and working on the Sabbath.....the most reprehensible law is condoning, allowing and even encouraging murder in the name of God...so why should non religious people be prevented from doing certain things or forced into doing others just because some religious order decides it should be so?

For the record an Atheist is not a belief it is a non belief.....or in my case a rejection of certain religious beliefs, customs and practices.......
Some religions IMO are hypocritical, ignorant, and often barbaric....whilst others are benign I still cannot agree with their teachings or practices.

Just to expand on a point made by Ray...I find it staggering that some letters written well after the events by people acting on nothing but hearsay AND then translated at a time when folk were illiterate and ALSO had an "agenda".......CAN BE POSSIBLY TAKEN VERBATIM AS THE WORD OF GOD.....There is also evidence that some of these letters were "creatively edited" and others which did not fit the preconceived ideology of the time or were considered unpopular were discarded altogether. Yes if there is a God and he allowed his only son to die for our sins...then you would have thought he would have found a really clever, more reliable and less painful way to get his message over....and keep it there.
One question for Christian believers...at what point must we accept Jesus? It must surely be ONLY after we die and when we come face to face with Jesus or God.....cause some people do not even know of his or a Bible's existence whilst living.....now if that IS the case then why all the palaver about religion whilst alive? why not just wait till we die before asking for forgiveness and eternal life?
I use the following analogy.....a songwriter was puzzled as to why he had not had a hit despite writing some great songs...the answer was simple..... others were writing songs and competing for attention. Now he did not compete BUT expected people to come looking for him rather than creating fantastic demos, networking and pitching to everybody. Now how can God expect EVERYBODY to buy his song when he keeps it hidden from most and pitches it to others in a way that does not sell.

Dunno. But it's been around for well over 2012 years - so his name probably doesn't start with a J.

Actually Scott, it was by a fellow named Yeshua (with a "Y"), which is the Hebrew name where the Koine Greek name Joshua and later, the Latin Jesus come from. Jesus probably never heard his name pronounced as Jesus as that is the Latin rendering which came out of Rome later on and was passed down from the church at Rome. Yeshua or Joshua was a very common name back then which is why "Jesus" of Nazareth was the distinction given him.

This is true but I'm just using it to playfully jerk your chain.lol

Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31 are the places Jesus (Yeshua) is quoted with it. But granted, there are similar quotes in other religions as well as the Hebrew scriptures or Old Testament. Regardless, it is an ethical way to treat others.

Stevie

I heard an interview with author Maurice Sendak (b. 1928) today on PBS. He described his childhood as nearly unbearable but said that his brother "saved" him. He said he doesn't believe in God or the hearafter-when you die, you are dead, - nothingness. He said he "loves" life and people and is sad that it will end but death is final. And yet after making it very plain that he is an unflappable athiest, he choked up a little at the mention of his brother who died years ago and said, "I think I will see him again". Some very decent people are athiest but I suspect that it is the human condition that we long for life continuously.

I think I would reserve my harshest criticism for the so called Christian who pushes his dogama and yet hasn't a spark of humanity. I remember being told once by a young man who apparently thought I needed to be converted, "If I thought there was no afterlife and no heaven, I would sin and take advantage of people, cheat and kill because nothing would matter." When he left without my public confession to Jesus, I remember thinking what an awful person he was that the only thing keeping him from killing me was his fear of Hell and expectation of Heaven. The person to admire is the person who has no hope of a reward in the afterlife and yet acts decently in this life.

"When he left without my public confession to Jesus, I remember thinking what an awful person he was that the only thing keeping him from killing me was his fear of Hell and expectation of Heaven" - Samuel

Sorry I'm laughing Samuel, but that line busted my britches.

One’s conscience can be a powerful deterrent in keeping one from evil. However, living a decent life is also an intelligent and rational way to live one's life. Creating a decent World that one wants to live in doesn't require a belief in God.

"The person to admire is the person who has no hope of a reward in the afterlife and yet acts decently in this life" - Samuel

Good line Samuel! Reminded me of this one: "a true act of charity is one where the donor remains anonymous".

John

Ray, a gift refused is an insult to the giver, but it is your right to refuse. If you are drowning and I toss you a life preserver but you refuse to take it because you don't like me, than you will drown.If I didn't toss you a life perserver, then you'd have reason to hate me. Jesus offered His life to redeem whom ever from their sins, but they have the right to refuse His redemption offer.

Everett,
You are confused if you are talking about John 3:16. Can you not understand English? You are assuming a lot of if's. In the first part of the verse the Key word is Give. Now if someone gives you something, it belongs to you, right? So if God gave you/me, His Son to redeam us of our sins, it is all done. There is nothing else to do! However, in the second part of the verse the key word is Believe. It now requires an action to receive the gift that has already been given. So, after the gift has been given and an action is required to receive the gift, that is a gift with strings attached, of which is no givt at all.

I have no problem with people looking at religion thru Rose Colored Glasses. Christan/Church life is a wonderful thing. However as I'm sure you already know lots of people question things in some Chruch Doctrine and leave because of differences.

Some facts about Jesus dying on the Cross. First, there was a price on his head. Second he didn't exactly volenteer to be nailed to the cross. He was areested if you are to believe scripture. And as noted if you believe scripture, the Wise Men were looking for a savior born King of the Jews. Matthew 2:2.

Jesus himself appointed himself to his supposed high position.
No one shall come before God but by me. Now Everett, that is a bunch o hooey. But it is spouted in Houses of Ignorance, Myth, and Superstition all over the land. And religious people are still arguing over what is what in religion.

There is at least 2 places in the Bible that says we are all a part of God. So, why would I need to save myself, from myself???

I thought this one was done, LOL

I am surprised that anyone would try to analyze and pick apart the bible and its writings. There are so many different interpretations of many of the passages there.

For instance the passage God created the earth in seven days.
Some folks take that literally. Some folks say a "Day" in Gods time could mean anything.
Or you can say In His day. That could be very different.
Like in Jesus day. Whats that mean? I'd say about 32 years.
In Methuselah's day well, he lived a long time So his "day" would be much longer.

See what I mean?

Jesus said "I say to you, Today you will be with me in Paradise"
Hmmm, just today? Then what?
Or was it "I say to you Today, you will be with me in Paradise"
Does that mean forever? or when exactly?
And the meaning of some words and phrases changes over time.

It all depends on who is translating.

To be honest I have always envied folks who believe in an afterlife. It gives you something to hang onto. Some hope. I have none. I think when you are dead you are simply dead. You cease to exist. That scares the crap out of me. I don't want to die.
But I suppose deep down in my soul I hope there is more. That's why I watch Ghost Hunters, LOL.

I try to live my life in a good way. Try to respect my fellow man. Sometimes that is pretty hard to do, LOL. But I don't give my life to a God, or to any deity.
I'm not sure I could ever do that.

I'm 67 years old and believe me I can look back at some of the things I have done that I am not proud of. And I can say with certainty if I could do it different, or not have done it at all, I would gladly undo those things.
I was a Christian, I went to Church. But I quit. I don't know if I would have acted differently had I continued going to church. Maybe. Maybe not.

I don't think finding Jesus will undo the things I have done. Or make me look better in some Gods eyes. The harm I may have caused someone cannot be undone. I don't think any God can forgive that. I think that forgiveness has to come from the person harmed. And from yourself.

Some days I wish I could erase my memory. Make it all go away. But I cannot. I have to live with it. I have tried forgiving myself. Tried the "Well, I am not the same person I was". But I am the same person. I just choose to try to live my life different now. Have been for the last 30 years.
I didn't find Jesus or get born again. I just decided I was not a very nice person and I needed to change.
That and I knew my wife was going to leave me if I kept living the way I was living.....motivation, LOL.
I still screw up but I do try.

So most of this thread is lost on me. I don't hold it against anyone who doesn't believe. I don't Applaud anyone who does.
Neither need my approval or my guidance. They choose their own path. And I am sure neither really cares one way or another what I say.
Matter of fact, I don't know why I think I have the right to say anything at all.

As for God and Jesus? I'll keep an open mind for now.

I have a question that no one's ever answered. I've asked people but they give me no answer.

Most people feel like if you live a good life, you get to go to heaven. I guess that means if you're "bad," you don't get to heaven.

My question is, how bad do you have to be to miss heaven?

If you ate all the cookies and said you didn't, that's lying. Is that bad enough?

If you lied on a job application, is that bad enough?

If you're a 20 year old who has consensual sex with a minor, is that bad enough?

If you're a 40 year old and have consensual sex with a minor, is that bad enough?

If you cheat on your wife, is that bad enough?

If you mug someone on the street, is that bad enough?

If you rape someone, is that bad enough?

If you kill someone, is that bad enough?

What if you kill two, three, four, five, or six in cold blood, is that bad enough?

What if you're drunk when you do whichever of the above you did?

What if you're drunk, go out on a date, the woman performs oral sex on you, then you have intercourse with her and later she says you took advantage of her being drunk, is that bad enough?

If you see someone drop a $10 bill and you pick it up and keep it, is that bad enough?

If you lie about the condition of a car when you're selling it, is that bad enough?

If you yell at your children and make them cry, is that bad enough?

What if you don't feed your children enough but still buy cigarettes and beer, is that bad enough?

If there is a heaven and some people don't go there, how bad were they?

I can never get my head around the flawed perception that Jesus died for my sins.....

If I commit a crime or do wrong it cannot be paid for be nullified or made any better by someone else taking the blame and punishment.....the crime still happened..does not make sense either morally or logically......folk should pay for their own misdeeds.....if God does not want to forgive then that is up to him......so why the need to get the boy involved?

Now if Jesus was the SON then there must be a Mrs God somewhere in all this.......I note that there is no mention of her existence anywhere.....So by logical thinking that means that God does not treat her as an equal and was a chauvinist after all he did create man first...women was an afterthought.
One thing for sure if Mrs God was anything like my missus she would have demanded equality put her foot down and never allowed her son to be put in harms way in the first place.

Ray, a gift is not a gift until it is accepted as a gift. If I offer to pay for your dinner and you refuse, then you did not accept my offer. God offered His son in payment for your sins but you said no thanks, then you must pay for your own sins. Case closed.


Bill my friend. None of us are without sin and we all fall short of the glory of God. We all live in the Devil's world where he tenpts us every day to sin, we are weak and we give in. God knows this, that is why He sent His son to take our sins upon Him and pay the penalty for our sins. We can not undo what we did in the past but God can and does forgive our sins if we accept and believe Jesus as our sacrifice. We become a new creature in Christ, completely washed of all sin, our sinful past is dropped in the sea of forgetfulness. We may not forget our sinful past but God does. There is an after life, the soul can not die, it lives on, where, depends on the choices we make here on earth.

Bill, I believe the Holy Spirit is striving with you showing you your past to convince you that you need Jesus as your saviour. Don't resist too long as the bible says the Spirit is easily grieved and will not strive with man forever. Open up you heart and mind a seek God and He will be revealed unto you. The best place to find God is in His word, the bible. God bless you Bill in your search.

Sausagelink. No sin can enter into Heaven, no matter how small or how big. The greater the sin the greater the grace of God to forgive that sin. There is a saying" the worst sinners make the best Christians" or some such words. When a bad sinner is forgiven,he is much more grateful than a good sinner, because he has been forgiven of more. The hardest person to convince that they need a saviour is a good person. They think they don't need to be forgiven of sins, their own goodness will offset any little sins they have. Our self righteousness is to God as filty rags.

The only sin that can not be forgiven in blaspheme, and I doubt any of you here has committed that sin.

Umph Everett,
You get your information from some Version of the Bible do ya? Back on May 21, 2011 a Pastor, Harold Camping said the earth would end. He also took his information from the Bible. So Everett, what happened? We are still here.

While I suppose it is beyond your comprehension just exactly who decided mankind needed a Savior? I have no doubt that is also beyong your compprehension. Although I have pointed out the Verse, Matthew 2:2 My guess is you have never read it.

You bought this Pig in a Poke. You Bought the Bridge without checking the Title.

What Bible verse says we are going to some place called Heaven? Post it.

How would anyone know what it takes to get into Heaven. All we have is the Musings of Man, according to the Bible, all Sinners, Imperfect.

Now we have the Mayen calander. Another Myth that will be busted next December. We all make mistakes from time to time. And believe it or not, that is the way it is supposed to be. There are Postive going forces in Religion and Negative going forces in Religion. Christanany assumes we can elimnate the Negative and just keep the postive. Nothing could be further from the truth. You can't have one, without the other.

I have issues with a lot possibly most of what is written in the Bible....the serious "continuity" errors that appear in the Bible can hardly be ignored......to be blunt if what is written is true then God comes across as hardly the sharpest tack in the box because of all the mistakes he made. He is certainly not the most just or the fairest being that has ever existed because he takes sides and has favourites....he murdered countless folk to protect Moses and his tribe.....and what about the poor guy killed because he simply touched the Arc to prevent it from toppling over.....any God should not have had any need of such a device in the first place.......Evolution has made the absurd story of Adam and Eve and the garden of Eden not even worth discussion. If there is only ONE divine supreme God then where did all the angels and archangels etc come from and what do they do from day to day...cause they stopped being errand boys for God thousand of years ago.
I refuse to have blind faith in anything that has so many obvious flaws and discrepancies.....quite frankly I am astonished that so many supposed intelligent people can accept such tosh.

He used part of the Bible. He violated the concepts of Proverbs 3:5 and evidently totally ignored passages such as Mark 13:32.

The Bible warns against things like Camping's proclamation.

Cognitive dissonance. Humans are irrational, and have become adept at holding contradictory viewpoints.

A literal belief in the Bible would require one to also believe in Noah's ark, talking serpents, Moses parting the Red Sea, etc. But if you went out today and said "God told me to build a rocketship out of spare Mazda parts," even religious people might think you're bonkers. But why is that more crazy than the stuff you hear about in the Bible, presented as fact?

For a very recent example, look at the Presidential candidates. Mitt Romney is a Mormon, and for some reason that makes him unsuitable in the eyes of some Christians. But really, is the stuff Romney believes any less crazy-sounding than some of the stuff Rick Perry or even President Obama allegedly believes?

"Do you really believe all humans came from Adam and Eve?"
"Do you really believe the Earth is only 4000 years old?"
"Are you wearing your Temple garment right now?"

These are questions you'll never hear at a political debate.

We've had this argument for decades (and probably centuries) but it doesn't matter a bit. People are raised to believe, others are bullied or scared into it, others seek it out because it's a true source of comfort and hope, and others simply adhere to it out of tradition even if they don't truly believe. Like I said, humans are masters of cognitive dissonance. Present all the evidence you like, point out all the contradictions you want, people can and will find a way to hand-wave it away.

"others are bullied or scared into it" - Scott

Made me think of what Tchaikovsky said about religion. He said he believed because he was too afraid not to.

Thanks all for keeping this thread respectable.

Best, John

I believe in the story of Noah's Ark and that Moses parted the Red Sea. I don't where talking serpents are in the Bible but I do know there was a story about a talking donkey and there are mentions in job of animals that breathe fire. It's hard to believe in animals that breathe fire till you remember electric eels and lightning bugs. Now they have animals genetically changed so they actually GLOW. It's hard to believe in talking donkeys till you remember controversial Koko, the gorilla. I'm not saying Koko (or her buddy Michael) actually talked but I do believe if a human can teach an animal to speak, God can actually cause a donkey to speak.

No one here can change my belief and I can't change anyone. My prayer is that you all open yourselves to God and let Him teach you the Truth.

As for Romney, a lot of Christians don't support him because the Mormon faith believes Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. They also and they also the truth is found in teachings of Smith and other prophets of the Church as well as the Bible. Further, they believe each man who follows the truth can become God of a planet.

There are many good things about the Mormon faith but they are different from most mainline evangelical Christians. But they are evangelical.

John, that in turn reminds me of "Pascal's wager." Blaise Pascal postulated that a rational person would believe in God. In the absence of absolute certainty, if you believe in God and are wrong, there is no reward or punishment. However if you disbelieve and are wrong, you're severely punished in hell. So it's wiser to simply believe.

That being said, it's good to remember that people once believed with their heart of hearts in an immortal pantheon of Olympian gods and that storms and lightning were Zeus' handiwork. These days, those beliefs are fodder for blockbuster movies starring Liam Neeson and CGI monsters. We don't go around worrying that we'll be sent to Hades when we die or that Hermes will appear in the form of a goose to seduce our wives. In fact, if you made such claims today, they'd probably institutionalize you.

But once, those beliefs were real, and those gods were feared and worshipped.

Well,
I believe the huge majority of people are good people no matter what. Golly, is tomorrow the New Year? Yes it is! The weather is rather pleasant here. Hope thing are good where you are.

Sausage....If no one can change your belief then that is blind ignorant faith....you would still believe even if proof beyond any doubt showed you were wrong?......you would never let facts or truth get in the way of your ignorance or blind faith......that says it all.
Now with so many religions in this world having so many different views beliefs and practices and they ALL think they are right and everyone else is wrong how can you be sure you have picked the right one?....if there even is such a thing....and would it not be embarrassing if SKOPTSY turned out to be the true religion.....I bet some of those Skoptsy guys are as sure and devout in their beliefs as you are in yours.....if there are any of them left.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoptsy

Jim, I'm not sure that says it all. Besides, I guess that's you speaking for me. If someone showed me proof beyond any doubt, I'd recant. I don't think it will happen however so I feel confident in saying "no one's gonna change my belief."




I don't worry about picking the right one. It picked me.




Just scanning that wikipedia page indicates those people couldn't be right if the wiki article is correct. The Bible refutes them. From the article: "They believed that after the expulsion from the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had the halves of the forbidden fruit grafted onto their bodies forming testicles and breasts." There is nothing anywhere in the Bible that supports such thinking. If they were trying to fulfill the commands of Christ, they were hanging it on something that the Bible never mentioned. They were violating Proverbs 3:5.

The article also says "The Skoptsy also believed that a chief evil of the world is rooted in the lepost (bodily beauty, human sexuality, sex appeal, etc.) which prevents people from communicating with God. The way to perfection begins with the elimination of the cause followed by the liberation of soul. Castration ensured that all sins caused by lepost could not be committed." This is an unreal belief. You can't do anything to achieve perfection. Only Jesus was perfect. As for the lepost, much of that is in the mind and you cannot castrate the mind.

The Skoptsy were probably very devout but at best they were mistaken and at worst they were hypocrites. People do it but you can't say you're a Christian violate Proverbs 3:5 without committing a sin.

Jim,
You wrote...

Sausage....If no one can change your belief then that is blind ignorant faith....you would still believe even if proof beyond any doubt showed you were wrong?......you would never let facts or truth get in the way of your ignorance or blind faith......that says it all.

Isn't that the same with you but from the other side of the fence?

Stevie

Sausage you made my point for me.......the first sentence in your last paragraph sums it up for me...replace the word Skoptsy with that of any other religion.....and the same applies to each...at best mistaken and at worst hypocrites.
Your point about nowhere in the bible supports such thinking applies to much of the hypocrisy I see from most if not all Christian sects....including even mainstream denominations like Catholicism (who do not even consider themselves as a denomiation but the one true church), Church of Scotland, Church of England, Baptists, Lutherans to name but a few. They all have beliefs customs and doctrine that bears no resemblance to what is stated in the Bible........
Now you say Jesus was perfect...how do you know?...you were not there and you only have some letters written many years after his death testifying that he was the son of God and therefore perfect....and to all the other things that supposedly happened I can only say the rules of hearsay and non admissable evidence applies ....how do you know they were telling the truth?...people have been known to exaggerate, tell lies and try to make things fit their own agenda........and how much of the Bible was lost in translation or misplaced completely.....as stated in earlier posts man is not perfect so for God to trust a few humans to write down his exact instructions and his wishes then translate it into many languages which is then cast down for all eternity and for people to quote chapter and verse...is pretty stupid.

Jim, have you ever been to America?

I've never been to England, but I kind of like the Beatles.

So some are saying that because Religion like all our history is handed down information, there is no truth that a supreme being exists. ?

I find it too incredible that man has evolved solely by
evolution. I certainly dont belive someone made the Earth and all it's creatures in Seven Days as many Americans seem to believe, I also believe that the whole question of religion
is far too complicated for the average Human Beaing to understand.

Too start a war like some have in the name of protecting some Religion, is beyond me, what true religion preaches killing others because they dont follow your faith.

I also know that we need a book of rules to exist in harmony on this planet, and many good religions practise that.

Yes there must be a supreme force out there, life didnt get to where it is today just by chance.

Darwins theories hold out and why should it conflict with religion, just because man took millions of years to evolve to what we are today, What is TIME to a supreme force ?

Look beyond silly arguments about handed down information
and you may come to a more satisfactory conclusion.

Never been to USA but I plan to visit one day and meet as many JPF friends as I can........interesting to find out why that question was asked...seems out of context.

Cheyenne I agree with some of what you say BUT you do not need a belief in God or religion to make rules and laws and have a good code to live by....in fact many religions have laws and codes which are couter productive to justice fairness and compassion....and many non religious people have a pretty good moral backbone which would stand up to any moral judgement.

Stevie No it is not the same.....I do not believe cause there is no proof to justify what others believe in.......I can not prove a negative.....and no one can prove a belief ...but I can throw doubt on the authenticity of the Bible and question how people can reach such staggering conclusions based on no factual evidence....I admire folks faith but there is a fine line between faith and ignorance.....it seems that folk jump this line without any real question or consideration of alternatives.....or facts.
I ask the question is it healthy to follow any belief without doubt or question.....shows a certain gullibility IMO.
Not so long ago folk believed that the earth was flat and the sun died each night to be reborn again each day....It took time but they were proved wrong.....I wonder how long it will take to de bunk many religious beliefs.....we are discovering stuff day by day which throws even more doubt on certain beliefs and religious ideas......Before Christianity there were so many beliefs and Gods for every conceivable thing that it got confusing.........some are still confused...even with one God.

If you have not been to America, then how do you know it exists? This may sound strange but you are basing your belief on the same evidence Christians use to back up their belief. You are going by what you've heard from others and I've quoted you below from an earlier post you made concerning proof.

In a while I will go outside, get in my car, start it up, and drive to church. I believe that more than I believe anything else I guess. However, my car could have been stolen last night, I may have a heart attack before I get in the car, the battery may be dead, and I may have an accident before I get to church, so what I believe may be wrong. If proof is needed, I suppose my past experience proves I will indeed go outside, get in my car, start it up, and drive to church than my past experience proves the existence of God. However, my past experience has also proved my battery does go dead and I do have accidents, so what I believe so deeply may be wrong.

Another thing I do is lock my doors to keep people out of my house. My house has been burglarized even though the doors were locked. It only happened once. Till I was 51, I could have said "no one will ever break in my house" because no one ever had. That could have been a belief based on what I knew. I could have been sincere but I also would have been wrong.

Like I said, with the evidence presently available, I can't prove the existence of God (Jesus) any more than I can prove I will go outside, get in my car, start it up, and drive to church. Never-the-less, I think both things will be proven true in time. As the Bible says, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Might as well start now.

Now, concerning whether America exists, consider:

Now I am being called stupid, that hurts.

Jim, it's exactly the same. Let's once again take Christianity or any other "organized religion" out of the equation and focus only on the existance of a creator, whatever you want to call him/her/it. You call it preposterous.

You don't believe in a creator but you make declarations that one could not possibly exist, nor would there be the need for one. But you further your folly by insinuating that those who do believe in a creator are ingnorant, childish,etc, etc. Neither of us can "prove" a creator exists or doesn't but we can look at the evidence. You have offered none or you point to evolution as your evidence. Evolution is but a theory about how life came to exist and nothing greater. Where are the facts? Nowhere. The fossil record is incomplete and Darwin himself was concerned about the huge gaps in the fossil record because without more evidence than was available his theory fell flat on it's face. He admitted and lamented that point But secularists, who make modern "science" their god are vehemently resistive to what their hero admitted. Why? Because evolution and natural science (which is constantly changing) is their god which is based on nothing but blind faith when they say there is no creator nor a need for one.

Why is the cosmos so finely tuned to ridiculous points where mere fractions either way make it impossible for it to even exist as it is? I'm not talking even about life here but merely for it to exist at all as a completely sterile entity even.

OK...in the beginning was the so called Big Bang in which I believe. Everything that is came out of a singularity which no one can conceive, even the most noted astronomers and theoretical physicists. They don't know what caused that point that is so small yet so powerful with energy. Show me scientific evidence that there is or was ever an effect without a cause in the cosmos. Just evidence, not even proof. You can't is the simple answer. So you are taking it on blind faith that everything exists (the effect) as it does with no cause just like the believer in a creator. It is just an opinion of yours and others who don't believe in creative design. If I was to be so bold as you I would call that presumtion stupid but I won't be that blatent because while I respect your opinion, I think you are egregiously mistaken. How's that for diplomacy? lol.

When it comes to this part of the equation you are the one who is taking things on blind faith without regard for the evidence.

As for the theory of evolution, even if it was true, there has to be a first cause because there is no incidence of inorganic matter turning into organic creatures. ZERO. Never was and isn't now.

Every change taking place along the way would constitute a malfuntion which would be erradicated by natural selection rendering evolution impossible. Yet you state evolution as fact because you have read writings by it's adherents and have been indoctrinated into believing it to be true. You have blind faith that it is true and ipso facto, that there neither could be a creator nor a need for one.

Same boat from the other shore. I could go on and on. but I won't be so wordy this episode, lol.

But dispite our differences I always wish you the best, Pal. Have a great and happy New Year to you and yours.

Stevie