JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Please stand up.

Will the real Mr. Obama please stand up.


http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=106938

I thought it was going to be an exercise program of some sort.

Well,
The "Real" Obama has stood up. And after this next election he is most likely going to "Stand" down. I suspect a lot of people that voted for Obama are going to vote "Present" next election. His re-election motto will be: WE ARE GOING TO BRING DOWN THOSE GAS PRICES. COUNT ON IT.

I wish it were so Ray. But I'm not going to hold my breath. America elected this guy despite the warning signs, and they were very apparent. So what does that say about Americans.
I wouldn't be so sure the same people won't get blinded by the light once again. Especially given the alternatives. It ain't looking so good.
I had not made up my mind even as I stood in front of the screen in the voting booth on the republican primary voting day. I actually did eany meany miny moe. And I am embarrassed to admit it.
But as an independent none of them met my criteria.

Edit
I'll qualify that. I had narrowed it down to two. I just couldn't decided between them.
I wish we had a viable third party or better still eliminate both parties. Just have the American party. Why can't we elect people who are more moderate? Why does everything have to be so Black and white (and I don't mean Race), Left wing vs right wing?
Is there no middle ground?

Bill:

I share your concern. We have too many folks enjoying the "Nanny State" and more are pouring in illegally from our borders each day... because the Obamanistas want easy votes. When Texas attempted to require photo ID (driver's license, etc.) of all voters, Eric Holder decided this might disenfranchise some of his illegals. (The old discrimination ploy again.)

I'm hoping it rains on election day in November. Most of the paid voters won't bother to vote if they might get wet.

Humm,
Those Gas Prices may keep a lot of Nanny Staters from the Polls. They can't afford the gas! My wife filled up the CRV yesterday. I think she said it cost 50 dollars. Now those prices are getting serious! Just think, after 75 years of Big Government Liberal Programs you would think everything would be fixed. The "Pogo" Rule is alive and well.

In the UK petrol is about $7.50 per gallon......I regularly fill up at a cost of around £80 ($100 US)...double what you guys pay.....the duty and tax on fuel is extortionate.......whilst we ALL hate paying taxes we have to.... so the gov can provide the services like roads etc we all rely on....Maybe if some of the big companies and millionaires paid their due tax instead of evading and dodging it the cost of fuel would come down....NUFF SAID....do not blame the government...one lot is as bad as the other when it comes to fuel duty and tax in general...but they have to raise it somehow...and duty on petrol is an easy way to collect it.

I remember back in the 50's when small high quality auto imports from foreign countries were sold here. I think those cars are making a comeback. So what are they driving today in England??

Jim, the wastes of government spending and hiring too many government red tape people add to the amounts needed to raise. So, yes, we can blame government for being as greedy as anyone if not more. Besides the general elections, we have no say as to who gets hired for what. Too many heads and vice heads of this and that, leads to more money needed to pay them and their sometimes wasteful spendings.

Power, control and money. All supplied and endorsed by us all if we do nothing about it. What to do? I wish I knew. Like telling the owners of a big company we work for how to do things. The only things that seemed to work to some degree are boycotts or revolution. But eventually, the heads at the top of the class are just like the ones previous people revolted against.

We the people seem to do very little anymore. Too much to keep us occupied, I guess, like facebook and video games.

With other prices being high, there is little left to pay for just about any price of gas here. So, as low as it might seem to you, it is not low for us, given the prices of the staples and housing.

I dunno Big Jim. I used to drive 70 to 80 miles (128km)round trip every day to work so I used a LOT of gas in my pickup (16 MPG/26KPG)so at our prices it was really cutting into my earnings. Scots can drive coast to coast on a few gallons of gas so I guess it's supply and demand. Not much demand there I'd say.

Bill you would not believe the mileage I do.......I have to fill up at least once a week sometimes twice....some gigs are in excess of 100 miles away.....the average is about 60 miles round trip..The UK may be small in comparison to USA but we do travel far and often....I checked the stats and the average UK person (non business) drives about 11k miles a year...similar stats apply according to USA figures....some commuters travel much more distance as house prices in the city are too expensive....so they buy a house in the country and commute to work by car.

Johnny I am with you 100% on waste.......BUT that is a problem worldwide and is not just restricted to government waste.....if you want to see waste then look at some of the private companies......they could teach the government how to waste time money and resources big time. Re cost of living I think that according to stats things cost much less in the USA than here in UK...HOWEVER.....we possibly earn more actual cash but have to spend more....works out about the same living standards in the long run.

We were told our high prices we due to the fact that we pay in $AU but oil is bought in $US now they are telling us the prices are are high cause of the high $AU ... someone speak with fork in tounge.... personally I know where I'd like to stick the fork...

I like Obama.... but he is still a politician.....

I love these "anti" nanny stater's... always whining someone is trying to restrict their fun... quit complaining, get off you a$$ AND move to where that $hit is legal.... somepeople do not want people high on cannibis, coke, crak or what ever driving cars and walking down the street carrying guns so they can run over and shoot at the freeking big spiders... We have laws to protect citizens from other people who do not have enough sense to know their own limits or differentiate between right and wrong... including laws governing big business, and individual behaviour .... where the line is drawn? ... well that's why we elect a government to protect our interests and make decisions for us.... If you don't want to live in society where the government is there to act in the best interests of ALL the citizens including ensuring minorities and those of feeble minde and or body get a fair go... move out and go to places where they do not have law...

I too live for the day I will be able to legaly take whatever drug I want and hunt down the people that piss me off, take their money property and women folk if I want it .... damn this nanny state I live in... Stopping me having all the fun I want.

Gee Noel,
I can see you don't understand the Nanny State very well. They tried the Nanny State in the old Soviet Union. You know what happened to that. They tried the Nanny State in Greece. didn't work out too well. For a while it was tried in England and France. Same result.

It's sorta like that old Vaudvillle Joke. With your money and my brains we will go places. The Nanny Staters, Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, have all the brains, (They Think) and the Conservatives, Republicians have all the money. Don't they wish. So you can see the problem. The Liberals want to run the country but they want the conservatives to pay for it. You know how well it worked in the old Soviet Union. The voters are going to heave "The Annointed One" out in November. But if you like the Nanny State, be sure to send all your money to the Government, they can use the money!

Our (American) Constitution was, and is meant to limit Governmental intrusion on our individual lives. We currently have an administration that doesn't agree with that. When that happens we have a Supreme Court to right the wrong that the Government (Current Administration) has tried to do to circumvent The Constitution in many ways.

Everyone has a God given right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The Government has absolutely no right to take that away (Nanny State). Laws are made by the people and for the people, not for the convenience of the Government.
This thing will come to a head come November.

Noel, I don't know why you seem to think that your Government is so wise and the end all to your nations problems, but thankfully the US still scrutinizes politicians and holds them accountable for their actions. Politicians are people too, and many are unscrupulous. I'm sure that Australia has a few that fit in that category too. Do you want to turn your liberty over to them from simple trust? We just sent the former Governor Of Illinois (Democrat) to prison for 14 years. On a rare occasion like that, the courts did their job and should be commended.

I lived in a socialism and now live in capitalism and I see from my experience that nowhere people can invent/built perfect state, I read many articles including
there:
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/

also I hear from many experts (US and European) that modern financial system built on the fiat money is going to collapse in the nearest future and they propose come back to the golden standard, but there is one private firm that doesn't like such a deal and it's title is
Federal Reserve System.

BS... all of it... the nanny state is supposedly where the laws seem only there to protect you from yourself... a good exsample would be like seatbelt laws in Australia... however the seat belt laws were there not to protect you in an accident so much as to prevent emergency services from having to spend hours and days looking for the bodies flung from cars... to an extent lessen the injury so idiots who only think they can handle speed don't fill up needed hospital beds and so on...

Capitalists are the ones who want more than their share and don't believing in paying for it... but still want the protection of the social society....

The Soviet Union was run by a power hungry group... their greed was for power as much as a capitalist greed is for cash... their is no real difference between them.

I don't..... our current government is run by weak halfwits... the oposition shows strength but only by generating fear and hatred... What idiot sells off your income generators? Basic business sense tells us you invest to make money not cut backs. The only time you cut back is just before you sell...to show false profit to swindle more out of the next lot of investors.

I'm not against making money, I am however against governments making laws that make it legal to defraud investors, that make it legal to manipulate the financial system by selling shares you don't own, to bankrupt a pefectly good and stable company so you can then buy them back for a song, and keep the difference.

I just don't see why I should be forking out good taxes to protect these people... When they are not protecting me.

Ben I think Noel was being funny...... I think it is called sarcastic........sadly this kind of humour is lost on folk who take everything literally. I think we are all opposed to repression and want equality.....BUT remember equality should be for all folk not just those with power and money.....the money the gov collect from you and all others should be used for the good of all......you have a democratic right to vote in or out who you want to control what happens to that money.....that is not a nanny state. I believe this phrase was coined by selfish conservatives who do not like paying for anything but still expect a return back even when they spend nothing. God help us from any government who does not protect the sick and vulnerable and does not provide any services or infrastructure....the alternative is too awful to even think about...I think it is called Conservatism....under conservative politicians there is equality BUT it is for only those who can afford it....the rest suffer while they grow rich.....most people are too stupid to realise this basic fact.
I have had a look at the republican candidates.... possibly one of them is going to be in charge of the most powerful country in the world...god help us all if any of these charmers ever get elected....you might pay less tax.....whoopeedo...BUT you will all be on minimum wage and pay through the nose for anything and everything you need....the nanny state will just be a distant fond memory with you all praying for its return.

Jim, if that was sarcasm, then what's your, or Noel's real opinion? When a conservative makes a sarcastic remark it's called "hate" by you. Should I refer you to one of your favorite comedians Bill Maher who called Sara Palin a "C-nt"? That my friend is hate speech.

As far as equality and Government goes Jim, we live in different cultures and different worlds. I don't have the time to argue with you. Enjoy your life and I'll enjoy mine.

Some things to ponder. The U.S. government is borrowing about 42 cents of every dollar they spend.

Everyone in the U.S. all have Color Televisions, Air Conditioners,a fairly good car to drive and adequate food.

And they all have adequate health care. Free if they can't afford it. The Government just borrows the money. The National Debt is now more than the Gross National Product.

About 42, or more U.S. States are in the Red. The National Debt is now about 15.5 Trillion Dollars, and growing.

47 Million now on Food Stamps. All given to us by the Liberal thinkers in the government.

The voters have a choice this November. Expand the Federal Government or take personal responsibility. And as usual the Liars and Figurers are selling the public Snake Oil. And it's amazing how many believe it.

The Cold hard facts are out there as long as you don't stick your head in the sand.

Conservative isn't a political position. it is common sense.

But, for you who have the money, with my brains we will go places!

This was me being tongue in cheek



but then I must admit it really pisses me off that the capitalists do not want laws that protect me from them... but want to live in a society that protects them from me...

These guys make a song and dance about illeagls comming over and taking jobs (while they knowingly employ the illeagals for slave wages) so joe avearage focuses his hate on the illeagals instead of the capitalits who are sacking them to take advantage of the cheap labour...

its the capitalist who scream about paying too much tax while hundreds vetrens who keep them safe are abanoned to live homeless on the street.

If a man works eight hours a day five days a week cannot afford to pay his mortgage, feed his wife five kids, clothe them educate feed, keep healthy and entertain by todays standards.... then something is seriously wrong. We have tones of natural resources, the government own it all... why are our poor so poor and homeless? because the government is weak and give it away to big business.

More than a century ago JP Morgan said:
"Gold is money, everything else is credit"

....and just month ago Ron Pol asked Ben Bernanke: "Is gold a money?" and then after unpleasant pause ( looked like Ben was taken unawares), he answered: "No"

Also I read that some states in USA are going to engrave their own golden and silver coins and use them as a legal way of a pay.

And next: do you remember this:(excerpt from Wikipedia)

"On August 15, 1971, the United States unilaterally terminated convertibility of the dollar to gold. As a result, "[t]he Bretton Woods system officially ended and the dollar became fully 'fiat currency,' backed by nothing but the promise of the federal government."[1] This action, referred to as the Nixon shock, created the situation in which the United States dollar became a reserve currency used by many states. At the same time, many fixed currencies (such as GBP, for example), also became free floating."

So what? Now independent American experts say :
"Time has come to return to golden standard otherwise soon you'll be using fiat money as a wall-paper to glue your home."

David Barton, who authored the article Everett cites, is a self-styled 'historian' who promotes the lie that the United States was formed as a Christian nation. So of course, President Obama, or any of the millions of others who understand that the Founding Fathers created a nation promoting religious freedom, not one establishing a Biblical theocracy, are "anti-Biblical" in the eyes of those, like him, who wish to force their religious views on others in violation of the Constitution they claim to revere.

Ben I have no idea what you are talking about.....the comedian who you refer to is not my fav...far from it......not even familiar with the name until you brought it up....I am not a fan of Palin but cannot condone hate and silliness.
We are not really very different from you even though you may think it....except that some Americans have a slightly more narrow minded right wing attitude than Brits.
Noel is right the capitalists and conservative policies are based on greed and divide and conquer policies......so the rich get richer at the poor's expense. No ammount of debate or verbal exchanges will ever change that......so if you want to adopt the I am all right attitude screw everyone else...then that is up to you. I on the other hand adopt a more humane philosophy that the weak and infirm should be cared for and that power and wealth should be distributed more evenly and fairly.......equality for all not just for those who can afford it. Any society that allows people to have huge wealth whilst others die of starvation in the gutter has to have something basicallly wrong with it.

Good question, Bill. I think it might be because people claim to want folks to be moderate. But in reality, they want their guy to be uncompromising and the OTHER guys to be moderate

The situation is getting worse - it seems like the few moderates left in congress are leaving.

Being a moderate is hard - you have to be tough enough to fight for what you believe in. But you have to recognize that your opponents feel the same way and that some compromise will be needed. This puts you in a position of examining your beliefs - which things are you not willing to compromise on and which things are you willing to give ground on? Folks don't like to think this way.

And you have to be willing to look at both sides of an argument. And constantly update your thinking based on new information that becomes available - thereby leaving yourself open to being called a flip-flopper.

That's how a person gets through life. Sadly, it's not how a person gets elected to anything.

I believe that the strength of our country resulted from having a capitalistic system with some socialistic elements. The balance between the two allowed the growth of a large middle class. When this moderation in government goes away, so does the middle class.

I will do something rare in a political thread and admit that I might have been wrong. I once argued with Brian that we did not need a third party. That the reason our system worked was precisely because of the two-party dynamic. But that system, as successful as it was, is now broken - hijacked by the extreme elements on either end. So something has to be done to get the whole thing started again and a third party might be the answer.

Scott

Are you speaking about Australia or Capitalists in general everywhere in the following charges? Or the USA? Lots of general statements there. Can you offer any proof?


Can you give us an example of one of those "Laws"?


Do you have a large illegal immigrant problem in Au. Noel or are you talking about the USA? Can you name us one capitalist company that employs large numbers of illegal immigrants? Then give us the names of the people who own those companies that complain about the illegals? Did you know that most illegals usually get paid just as much as the legals? Do you know why? It is because illegals don't pay taxes. That means the employer can get away with NOT paying the federal and state $$$$$ that are required to put a legal on the job. I lived in an area where illegals made up a large portion of the labor force and believe me they got paid well. Most of them drove nice pickup trucks or mini vans to haul around their wife and 4 kids who went to our schools but paid no taxes, who went to the local welfare office and got food stamps (that I couldn't get) who got free medical care (yes FREE) That MY tax dollars subsidize. I also new the owner of a fruit processing company that hired illegals. When I asked him why he said it was because the locals wouldn't take the jobs, and when they did all they did was whine about how hard the work was and he was lucky if they showed up more than 4 days a week. If he wanted the work done he had no choice. And again the parking lot was full of nice trucks



Really? where? name one. For one thing the Capitalists in America, who are usually corporations, pay 35% tax rate. Isn't that enough? The only veterans I have ever known who lived in the street did so by choice, were usually alcoholics or drug users, and if given the chance to work wouldn't. And yes I know this for a fact because I worked in the Emergency medical field in and around Chicago. Again, name one. But no system is perfect, someone will always slip through he cracks. But I'll give you an example of a Veteran being cared for by the Veterans Administration. MY BROTHER. He enlisted in the army during Viet Nam. He only served a few months and was discharged honorably on a medical not war related, he never saw combat, never left the country. BUT some years after he left the Army he was involved in a Motorcycle accident. He has been an invalid since. His EVERY need is paid for by the United States Veterans Administration. He gets food stamps, SSI, has had his house remodeled, The VA provides him with an Electric Wheel Chair that cost more than some peoples car. So please enlighten us about these veterans who live on the street.



Is this going on in Australia Noel? If so I agree, that is terrible. If you are talking about the USA This is so weak it almost doesn't need a response. But again I'll ask you. Name one person who lived within their means who is gainfully employed who is starving or living on the street. Do you know in the USA if you live below the poverty level we have a program called section 8 housing? It pays your rent. I know because my cousin owns an apartment building and ALL his tenants are section 8. And they ALL have color Television and Cable. And yes they can still work and qualify. One other thing, if you cannot afford to feed the kids why would you keep having more?

But if all these things are going on in Australia you have my sympathy. It is terrible. Fortunately here in America the biggest problem we have is the Nanny State that encourages people to live off the tax dollars paid by hard working folks like myself. And Spending more money than it takes in on stupid programs or giving money to countries around the world who hate us. Life ain't easy. It is hard. If you want something out of it you better work hard because it is no ones responsibility to take care of you I don't care where you live.

Bill I am not speaking for Noel I am sure he can do that himself. BUT in answer to your questions you just take a GOOD look around and not just listen to the capitalist dogma and propoganda surrounding you. Any company at all is by nature is a capitalist so ANY one who employs illegals answers your question. I do not need to supply names and addresses you will know more about them than me.
Not ALL people in the gutter are workshy alcoholics or junkies and there by their own choice........to believe that shows a complete lack of understanding of the REAL situation....and the reasons they are there.
Finally a man who works hard for his employer yet struggles to pay for basics because he is on too low a pay is common the world over not just America. He does that whilst his bosses rake in the big money....that is CAPITALISM...... ALL our countries were founded upon capitalism......it is wrong and anyone with sense compasion and fair mind should know it is wrong. All you are doing is promoting it by hiding your head in the sand. We are at the mercy of the whims of the rich and powerful...we even fight their wars and die.
Now some guys talk about Communist countries and how bad they are...that is true...BUT take a look at some Capitalist countries.. NOW....look at conditions in Russia or China before the revolutions..they were even worse...extremists of any political or religious beliefs are very bad and dangerous folk.
I do not believe that Capitalists care for anything but wealth and power....to think that the average Joe has any equality or say in anything is delusional....we are just pawns in a chess game where the rules are made up as they go by the kings.

Now we really love all out friends in Australia and Scotland. And we need them! They can always serve as a bad example!

Capitalists, not sure what that is, don't all want to rake in all the money and have wealth and poewr. So here's how it works:

Hundreds of thousands of people, that work, put a little of their money in the bank where they will get a little interest. Banks who are regulated by law, lends money out so people can buy something on time and pay it back. Banks also lend money to start up a business. Some business's build the equipment musicians use to record and prosper. That's how it works. As long as the system stays reasonable, within the regulations, conservative, all get a return on the shall I say the Captialist System? So the Captialist System is hundereds of thousands of paople working to make it work.

Are Captialists Greedy. Of course they are. But so is that Musician booking a Gig who wants a little more for his show.

Everybody wants a little more money. The Auto Union Workers wanted more money. But they priced themselves out of business. So the system broke. Am I greedy. Of course I am. Greed makes the world go around.

There are some good arguments on both sides here.

Capitalism in all it's virtue has a dark side, but there are plenty of rich people who scrapped and clawed their way to riches, they werent handed it, they went out and the got it.

Other people are content with going to working, putting on a hard hat, and going home and watching TV.

THAT'S capitalism.

It doesnt seem fair that Bill O'reilly makes 40 million for talking politics and a doctor who saves lives makes a few hundred K a year, but Bill O'reilly went out and made that life for himself. He saw the prize and he went after it.

That's what capitalism allows for, going after whatever life you want. The problem is when it fails, then what happens? What happens when the person doesnt reach their dream, then they suffer? is it fair for th bigwigs who made it to ignore everyone else, yes it is, but if the shoe was reversed what would happen?

Nobody with money is going to give it away. Some of these Multi Millionaires give 20 k to some charity and everybody praises them for it. Big frikin deal.

If you got trump and all the super billionaires in the world together they could solve so many problems, but they dont do it.

Just seems to me capitlism is a result not a cause. Whatever side u end up on is the right or wrong side.

Hey, we'd all love to be super models and body builders too, but it doesnt work out for everyone.

I feel the people on the bottom should be helped out, but not help out people who wont help themselves either.

We all are greedy, we (Christians) forget this:

Bible.Matthew 19:24

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Big Jim it is a waste of time even debating with you. You continue to spout liberal socialist generalities with not one single example of fact. You state they are fact on your word alone.
I don't live with my head in the sand nor do I spout Capitalist dogma. I gave specific examples of everything I spoke of and I could go on and on with more examples of each point. I have seen and been involved in every aspect of the points I made. As a Business person, as a public service worker picking up thousands of "homeless" people and poor people. I am also a Veteran and I have used and been treated and supported by our Government Veterans affairs organizations. I even received education allowance.
I have been a working person with kids to raise and I have had to live within a budget that fit my income. I have also watched other folks who didn't and kept having kids they could not afford to raise adequately. It comes down to personal responsibility. I have stood in line at the "Welfare" office trying to get benefits for my Granddaughter (I was her Guardian) and been turned down for any help while the person in front of me who could not speak a word of English was given welfare, Foods tamps, and was an Illegal immigrant.

I do know what I am talking about because I have been there both as a recipient and a provider and this country is going down the toilet because of the Crap Our Government is doing and it is NOT just the Democrats fault, many of the republicans are just as deep in it.
People like you point to America and spout your garbage and for the life of me I don't understand it. This is a capitalist country and it has provided wealth, technology, aid, Money, and raised the standard of just about every country of the world. It was American Capitalism that saved you butt during WW2. If it had not been for American Capitalism you would be speaking German. You know it, I know it, and the rest of the world knows it.
Knock Capitalism and America all you want but you better hope Our country doesn't fail or it is a sure bet your Great Grandchildren will be speaking Chinese or Russian.

The verse you quote is concerning a camel entering a city through a "needle gate" which was a short opening in the gate to protect the city. A camel could indeed enter through it but...it had to get on it's knees to be able to pass through the gate.

Jesus was talking about humility concerning the rich young man who came to Him asking what good thing he could do t that he could have eternal life. Jesus answers him, telling him to obey the commandments. But Jesus only quotes the commandments that deal with interpersonal relationships. The young man says he has obeyed them since his youth. That would indicate he was without sin. He wanted to know what good work he could do to have eternal life. There is nothing we can do to merit it...It comes by faith in Jesus through his death, burial and resurrection. Jesus tests him by telling him then to sell all he owns, give it to the poor,follow him and he would have treasure in heaven. The young man went away sorrowful because he had great possessions. He valued his possessions more than he valued God. That's the point of the story, not that being rich was sinful in and of itself. You can't take scriptures ala carte. You need to read in context with the verses preceeding and coming after a particular verse. The original transcripts of the Bible were not divided into verses. That came much later to make it easier for reference reasons.

The diciples asked him who could be saved then. Jesus said that with men it is impossible but with God all things were possible. Read the rest of the chapter in Matthew.

I could add more but I'll leave it at that.

Stevie

Tell you what Jim. You can keep your socialist system and I'll keep our system based on the marketplace. Fair enough? By the way, concervatives just want limited FEDERAL government as laid out in the 10th Amendment where the powers of the Federal Government are limited and the States have most of the rights to govern where the people of a particular state have more of a say and influence the more local government is in their lives.

Stevie

I dont make any judgements, but musicians seem to be more liberal than conservative aside your Ted Nugents, but the means they make their living is totally capitalism.

if you own a studio and produce music, and your product happens to take off, that's capitlism. you wouldnt be allowed to do that in another system.

Big name rock stars make their money through capitalism. What is capitalism but taking whatever talents you have, working hard and taking it to the limit.

You sell out arenas while your counterparts play corner bars for a hundred bucks a night.

If somebody asked them why they get to make millions for their show, they would tell them cause i earned it. CAPITALISM.

I'm afraid the "chosen one" will be re-elected, simply because too many people like getting FREE stuff!

Is he giving away Preamps?

Stevie I will keep my principles no prob.....thanks.......I just cannot get my head around the double standards of people who claim to be Christians yet support capitalism.... is it not a tad hypocritical when according to the Bible Jesus himself was a Socialist sharing everything each to his need and making rich people sell or give away ALL their wealth.

Jim,

So now I'm a hypocrite. I don't claim to be a Christian, I am one. Please read the post above my post to you for an explanation of what Jesus was saying about selling off all your possessions and giving to the poor. Then read the part before and after the passage about the rich young man. Jesus was not a Socialist, that term /concept didn't even exist back then and that's not what he was saying. Socialism is a form of governent. Jesus did not address governmental issues, only issues of the heart. Big difference. Many of his supporters were rich but they did not put their riches above their trust in God. Oh my, I'm trying to debate scriptural Christianity with an Atheist. Major disconnect.

Stevie

Bill you only seem to see one side of the coin and that is the side fed to you by the propoganda. You confuse laziness with socialism....there are lazy people from all walks of life all religions and all political parties. No system can stop that....unless you want to have concentration camps where people are forced to work with a gun at their head. Ask yourself why anyone would employ an illegal...the answer will give you your facts that you keep asking for.....because it costs less one way or another...why else would someone break the law. Nobody in their right mind would would employ illegals for the same costs are legit workers. In this country we too have illegal immigransts and some legal ones who will ALL work for pay and under conditions that the average Brit would consider unacceptable....Gues what they steal our jobs....and the capitalists call us workshy moaning minnies....but if we ask theses employers to comply with the law and pay proper wages and give proper conditions....then we hear their true feelings.
You are right it is pointless arguing with people who do not have the same values about fairness and equality as you.....I give you facts but you refuse to listen or accept them.

Jim I gave you real life observations. Not propaganda.
You gave nothing back except your usual rhetoric. You have not a single statement that is backed up by real life example. The "facts" you talk about are your opinions. Backed by nothing.
People sitting on their ass doing nothing and getting supported by the Government is laziness.
Make them work for it.
You don't work, You don't eat. Simple as that.

I think your issue is you just don't like people who are successful in business.

As far as illegals goes it really does not matter why people employ them. They are ILLEGAL. They are breaking our laws and driving our hospitals into bankruptcy. They are not supposed to be here. And our Government in there infinite wisdom allows an Illegal immigrant to sneak into our country and get free health care, have a baby, then the baby becomes an American Citizen. It's insane. In the womb the baby can be deported, as soon as it's out is is a citizen. That is nuts. That baby is even eligible to run for President of the United States.

Big Jim just doesn't like Free Enterprise. Free Enterprise is what made the U.S. great. Free Enterprise is what allows the U.S. to send Millions to other countries in Foreign Aid. Free Enterprise is what made ALL of Big Jim's Musical stuff. So I say to those that Bitch about the system, stop using the system!

Now that plenty of people, that have developed the Free Enterprise system are sucessful, the "Annointed One" wants them the Share the Wealth. Just tax them more and more.

They say there is about 3 Million dollars sitting Off Shore that business is just sitting on. The "Annointed One" wants them to bring it back on U.S. Shore, so the "Annointed One" can screw them out of it. SHARE THE WEALTH! He makes no secret of it and has said it plenty of times.

Business does share the wealth, by hiring people. But with no one buying anything business has to lay people off. A fact of life!

Illegals come here because they want to share in the wealth but don't want to go thru the process to become a Citizen. But with the "Annointed One" in charge, the wealth is getting smaller and smaller. Bite the bullet!

The top income tax rate was over 90% throughout the 50's and was over 70% throughout the 70's.

It is now 35%

President Obama wants to return it to what it was before the Bush tax cuts - 38.6%.

The nerve!

It was 70% when President Reagan took office and 28% when he left. Funny how no one accuses him of redistributing wealth.

Scott

Scott,
In the Headlines in the Brunswick News this morning: The Glynn County school budget is not a pretty picture. One school is already out of it and more cuts are certain.

Inside Senator Saxby Chambliss warns Georgia farmers of big cuts in farm subsities. If I remember correctly Ronald Reagan had a deal with the democrat controlled congress, both houses by the way, to cut spending if he would raise taxes. No spending cuts were enabled so the National Debt went up.

Obama wants to raise taxes on business, of which will entail in the unemployment rate going up. It is about 19.2 percent now, Real figures, not what is reported offically.

You are too young to know that the U.S. Constutition never gave the Congress the power to take money from one person and give it to another. Coruption run amock with the democrats in power for too many years and the now over 15 trillion dollar debt.

The Republicians are not going to raise taxes, the Democrats are not going to cut spending. Total disaster on the horizion.

The other Headline in the paper: LESS STATE MONEY AND LOST TAX REVENUE ARE CRIPPLING. That is in practically every state in the Union. Big Liberal policies, all failures.

Ray if it is a free market why do things cost so much?
What you fail to state is the true cost of free enterprise. One man's luxury is paid for by another mans sacrifices.
If anybody says they made a million by hard work then ask them....WHOSE?

"Nobody ever saw a dog make a fair and deliberate exchange of one bone for another with another dog. Nobody ever saw one animal by its gestures and natural cries signify to another, this is mine, that yours; I am willing to give this for that." (Adam Smith 1776)
...... and we have been behaving like dogs ever since. We prey on and steal from the weak, sick, infirm and elderly and cower or suck up to the big bully dogs who are the pack leaders. Are we dogs or humans?

Bill you are probably right I do not like people who are successful in business...well folk successful to the tune of millions anyway....probably cause they are greedy crooks who rip us all off....they do not pay fair rates to their workers avoid paying their share of tax and charge too much for their produce.
You accuse me of not stating facts but spouting rhetoric.....well my opinions are based on my observations, my conscience, morals and principles. What are yours based on?

Please tell me where this following observation is wrong......Illegals are illegal yes? so why do people employ them?.....employing illegals I take it is also illegal? so why are these companies not prosecuted? or is that stepping on the toes of free enterprise? Stop illegals finding work by imposing prison AND hefty fines on folk who employ them That would stop them coming into the country.
I agree that people should be productive and I also hate laziness BUT some people for health and various other legit reasons cannot work....do you propose starving them all?

Finally to all you right wingers why is Obama coming in for so much flack when the problems you blame him for are ongoing and have been there for generations under many governmants....if these probs could not be solved by the clever Republicans who preceded him how can a mere democrat solve them.

All too true Scott

I think every one should have been outraged. How dare Reagan and Bush redistribute the wealth back to the people who earned it? What was he thinking?


It simply astounds me that anyone thinks taking 70% of a persons earnings is in any way justified. Or 60%, 50%, 40%, Even %30 is IMHO more than enough. And it does not matter how much they make.

Ray is right. The Constitution of the United States of America has no provision to allow Congress to take money, or anything else for that matter, from anyone and redistribute it to someone else.
That is not freedom

Bill, unless a person believes an income tax rate should be 0% then he agrees that income taxes are necessary at some level. At that point, the only difference between folks is the exact number.

For the record, 70% seems ludicrous to me too.

I reported those numbers so people can have a point of reference when others trot out the old "redistribution of wealth" mantra.

As for the "people who earned it". We've been around that one before and I don't think we'll ever agree. In my opinion, it's been a couple hundred years since there has been a self-made man of real means.

Scott

Im an Atheist and I dont want the goverment deciding for me what I share. If I share anything it is because I have compassion doesnt make me a socialist. I believe every man should make his own tracks in the snow. If I give you something its a gift, if the goverment gives you something, its at the cost of the taxpayer and is more costly than my gift, its rides on the back of anothers time and labor, through the hands of many. My point is goverment involvement is costly and should be minimal. If the jockey gets to fat, the horse collapses and the race is over. Doesnt have anything to do with god.
Dont be so narrow minded that you miss the point trying to make your own.

Cheers
Paul

Here we go again. Guys (and gals) we've had this argument or heated discussion at least a dozen times... and I haven't been able to convince any of you to elect me "King for Life."

Honestly, all your problems will be solved. Your troubles will be over. (Especially you liberals and communists... LOL!)

Seriously, we're never gonna convince each other that "your way" is the right way. I'm the only one whose right here at JPF! (As if you didn't already know that!)

Have a great day!

Jim!
The reason things cost so much is inflation. Our esteemed President Lyndon Johnson, before your time, decided to print more money. But never mind. In the Free Enterprise System you can pass on buying something. If enough people don't buy something, the price usually comes down. Free Enterprise, you know.

Now Dave, I am going to elect you King just as soon as you appoint me the High Priest of, uh, aw, Ok, Lapland! Big Jim will be my Prime Minister. Do you think I will need a Prime Minister?

Probably just a Jailer. Maybe a Court Jester. It's sounding better all the time! So peasants, pay those Taxes!

Dave, I don't think they elect Kings. When my ancester came accross the Channel in 1066, there was a big roul. William made himself King by brute force. Let that be a lesson to you Dave. As Big Jim said, the strong prey on the weak. I think it's called a History Lesson. But I'm not sure. The cost of things are killing me.

No comment folks. Decide for yourself. Inflation rates averaged over their entire terms:

Johnson: 2.6 %
Nixon: 5.0 %
Ford: 8.7 %
Carter: 9.7 %
Reagan: 4.7 %
Bush: 4.4 %
Clinton: 2.6 %
Bush: 2.8 %
Obama: 1.5 %

Scott

Source: inflationdata.com