JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Traditional Christianity vs. Modern Christianity

Jim, there is a difference between murder and killing. Here it is:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murder

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kill

"Murder" is unlawful killing. If there is a capital punishment law, then the killing is lawful, if it against the law but the authorities kill anyway, then it is murder.

By the way, the Hebrew word for "kill" is "harog", while the Hebrew word for "murder" is "retzach." The Ten Commandments in Hebrew use the form of "retzach." tir.tsach 'lo "You shall murder not."

This has turned into an abortion debate now.

Although I would outlaw it if it were up to me, I believe it has become like war. Sometimes it may be necessary.

Thanks Lisa for your post. The thing that turned me into "an anti-abortion activist" was when I learned how they are done. I don't know if they do it now but they used to "salt" the baby too.

Jim, your last post made this comment:

"Perhaps if the USA had less barbaric laws and practices than those stated by Lisa there would be less controversy and a more humane and rational approach."

A "more humane and rational approach" to kill innocents?

People who can't tell the difference between capital punishment for crime and abortion IMO have no credibility on the issue.

Someone also talked about all the comments from men on the issue. That's true in this thread and in America, it was 9 men who gave women the right. I've found one reason women aren't always as vocal as men is, they know it comes down to their decision and as has been said here, it is a hard decision. They don't want to be judged, whether they are for it or against it.

Please answer my question so I can sleep well tonight:

How many of you who have posted on it know someone who admitted to having an abortion?

Mike again it is all down to perception and morals......I am of the opinion thsat the taking of any life is wrong regardless of whether the person is a murderer or not. I am not pro or anti abortion it is too complicated for a straight yes or no.....there are lots of grey areas. So I adopt a more rational approach and leave the decision of abortion up to the people concerned....the mother the father the doctors and the potential life being aborted. Each case has to be taken on its own and no blanket rule covers all. I do not think that any person not directly involved has any right to judge or criticse the choice made when they do not have ALL the facts of any individual case. Sometimes we have to make hard decicison and sometimes they may be wrong BUT we can only hope that in a civilised society we help and support those who make mistakes and may have to live regretting them. It is sometimes a case of damned if we do damned if we do not. I watched one of those Springer type programs where a 16 year old girl druggie with all sorts of problems was having DNA tests to see which one of the guys she had slept with had impregnated her. None of the assorted low life were interested in being a parent or suppporting her or the baby. After seing the shenanigans and listening to how the baby was breing brought up and knowing its future was all but doomed I could not help feeling that perhaps it might have been better for all if the baby had not entered this world. Then I thought that goes against my basic instinct and morals. I am a hypocrite....then I thought perhaps I think too much. We can only think and do what we think is best and all too often it is not.
Perhaps if this world was worth bringing a baby into then abortion rates would fall.

The segue into moral relativism is a natural one I would think Sausage.


In absence of "God's law" or some secular law of the land, every decision made is based on individual need and preference and circumstance. (With laws in place we also weigh the punishment and chance of being caught)


Abortion is only an example of this. I think Michael summed it up really well by saying\inferring this is not a black or white issue. This is not an issue where one law, secular or divine, can possibly cover off all the circumstances, nor one where one over arching principle (all life is sacred) can be applied to all cases.


And exactly BECAUSE this is so, I think it should be left up to the individual couple, or in absence of a relationship, the woman herself, to make the decision and be guided by medical professionals and the broader guidelines in place.


As with EVERYTHING else that we believe about God and what God wants, we must leave it up to God and that individual. If we presume to judge others in God's name and act against people in God's name for any reason, I think we tread on a foundation of faith and belief, not fact and truth. And really, who is to say what the will of God is as applied to a specific situation?


If we believe God will be our ultimate judge, then why not let that process take its due course? Why not trust God to make the appropriate decision with respect to the choices made by individuals?


By all means, disagree where you feel you must. But to take action against someone because they made a decision they must themselves live with, and that we may believe they are accountable to God for, is a totally different matter.


Life is messy. There is ALWAYS a calculus at work. We can only make decisions we can live with. Big Jim and others say taking a life is wrong under any circumstance....well nice words and all, but I am all for Truman having made the hard decision to drop the A bomb on Japan because it saved more lives in the end. As for abortion, who should decide who lives or dies if the mother is in danger of dying because of the unborn child?


Was the 1990s sniper who was killing doctors who performed abortions somehow morally right? Was Ruby morally justified in killing Oswald? We know in both cases it was murder, and against the law of the land...but was it somehow morally right? I suspect for some it was.


Life is messy, choices are messy, situations are messy. Very little is black and white.

If left to God NOTHING would ever happen we would all die....or never be born in the first place. God if he does exist stays away. So to second guess what God will do or cast an opinion on his bahlf is folly. We live in a world ruled by MAN and have been subject to his foibles. Man makeS his own decisions and laws. We must base these laws on the for good of all principles rather than any religious dogma. Please do not be under the misapprehension that we NEED a God in order to run our lives and have laws for the good of all. I am of the opinion that civilisation has come this far despite religion poking its nose in rather than because of it. We must live and let live and compromise......let God do his thing after we die. I take anything claimed as God's will with a huge bag of salt. It seldom is for the good of all.

For me, the answer to those questions is found in the Biblical verse in John 16:33.

We're destined to trouble in this life but God's original will was that we have everything we needed, including joy. He doesn't want people to hurt and abortion, from what I've seen, is one of those things that never leaves you alone. It haunts you and eats at you.

It's like seeing someone drive down a road where a bridge is washed out. Should we tell them or just let them go down thinking God will take care of it?

So is there no absolute morality without a higher power? Neitsche sure struggled with morality. Do humanist morals change with the individual, depend on the situation? With that we end up with a lot of equivocation, hairsplitting, searching for loopholes, moving or blurred boundaries, conflicting rules...it sounds like Income Tax.

So you don't believe in killing for self defense, or are you only speaking about capital punishment?

I'm sure that for some it is haunting and difficult Sausage, as much as I am sure that for others it is a relief.

And I fully respect your viewpoint as considered and based in your faith, but that does not give you the right or responsibility to intervene and force the\any\all woman to carry the baby to term, and then raise it or give it up for adoption, or take any action against her\tem.....UNLESS this also your child in which case you should be allowed a voice but not the final say.

Mike are you trying to twist my words? we are programmed to defend ourselves and our families and I would not have it any other way. As stated earlier sometime we are faced with a situation where our morals are tested. I would not think twice about defending myself or defending others. There are occasions where it is necessary to do things that we do not want to do for the good of all. It is just about deciding the degree of action necessary. Yes if a gunman was about to blow someone's brains out then he must be stopped and if I had to shoot him as a last resort I would. There is however a fine line between defence and attack and necessary force and unnecessary force. There is a difference between taking immediate action as a self defence and bumping someone off who poses no immediate threat.

I agree, Jim, that's why I am a gun owner.

I am not that different from yourself....although I disagree about guns......to easy to kill someone with. We do not have a gun culture like the USA.......however there has been an increase in criminals who use guns and carry knifes. In most cases though it is not the general public but fellow gangsters who get stabbed or shot. More police are carrying guns as a result of these low lifes carrying guns and Kevlar stabproof vests for police officers is now the norm. My take is simple the less guns available the less deaths. There are many reasons for so much violence but I think the increased use of illegal recreational drugs has a lot to answer for. Most of these violent crims are out their minds when they commit.

Jim, I've always thought we were very similar. The important thing is not about what we disagree...but that we disagree.

No Mike the important thing is what we do agree on. There is more common ground than I think we admit.

All kidding aside, I agree.

Do you think you can consider it a relief can still wonder "did I do the right thing?"




I think I said so in the quoted text below:





I agree but I don't own a gun.
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I didn't read all of this nor enter into the discussion, but I think people have had ample opportunity to vent their thoughts. Time to close down now.